| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Hymn |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 03:13:22
Hello I was wondering if any one of my fellow scribes has a copy of "The Shadow Stone" by Richard Baker. To bad Mr. Baker isn't answering on this forum  or this might have been resolved a lot quicker. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Hymn |
Posted - 25 May 2004 : 22:22:38
Anyhow to answer myself  , information on Imaskari can be found on following pages through out the book.
Page 125, 126, 128, 129, 145, 151, 262, 263, 264, 265, and 286.
There is also a desription of their language, Roushoum, as swirling lines and dots. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 25 May 2004 : 08:49:31
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
No Master of Realmslore needs to call me "Mr Krashos", Bookwyrm. George (or Krash if you are into nicknames) is the only form of address that sits comfortably with me - so please use it.
Now, now. If I wouldn't bow to the will of Mr. Greenwood, what makes you think I'd do the same for you?
(Blame it on my mother -- she was always trying to turn me into a real Southern-U.S. gentleman.) |
| Hymn |
Posted - 25 May 2004 : 01:01:41
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The Imaskari were known as the Artificers and rabidly anti-deities. This is clear from other FR sources. Hence it is hard to understand how they would have embraced the shadow weave/magic given its divine origins. My thoughts are that only a very few, renegade Imaskari led by Madryoch the Ebon Flame (the Imaskari from "The Shadow Stone") were granted access to shadow magic via a mini-version of the shadow weave, a prototype if you will, centered on the shadow stone itself and created by Shar for this purpose.
Hmm, I think you are correct in that assumption, since at least all cultures venerate gods somtime during its creation.
I see it as this: religion is away to answer questions like who am I, why does the sky make angry sounds and flashes of ligh, etc etc. (Hope no one takes offence at this since none is intended) So my guess is that they have venerated gods somtime alltough something happned that made them turn away, at least a portion of the population. Now if this occured before or after they became a nation, and/or spellcasters, I havent decied upon as of yet (lol, much to ponder when one creates culture/history backwards.
/ Hymn
____________________Spoiler warning____________
Now back to the book, at least for a while I thought it was pretty good, considering I got it in the mail this afternoon and am now finished with it. It has the standard fantasy story, but since almost everyone has been used who is to blame. I also likes that at least some of the "main" chars die. I also liked the detail of magic structures etc, I have wanted to read one of these for ages.
The Imaskari tidbits gives at least a little more glimps backwards, First empire of man, and so fort. I am sure I will use some of it in the next update of the Imaskari stuff. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 24 May 2004 : 04:34:45
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
I think that this ought to be canon, Mr. Krashos.
No Master of Realmslore needs to call me "Mr Krashos", Bookwyrm. George (or Krash if you are into nicknames) is the only form of address that sits comfortably with me - so please use it.
-- George Krashos
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| George Krashos |
Posted - 24 May 2004 : 04:30:26
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
I think that this ought to be canon, Mr. Krashos. It's pretty well-thought out. I wish WotC would get its act together and start puting things like that in sourcebooks. I realize that they probably have their own agenda, but they sure aren't showing much of one. Or at least one that'll give the Realms the vibrancy it had under TSR.
Well, in terms of gaming utility, sometimes things are better left mysterious to allow individual DMs some wiggle room to adapt stuff for their campaigns. My explanation is just one of several that would work just as well in the Realms. As I've found on more than one occasion whilst doing FR work, creative wellsprings often flow in different directions! (Unless you read stuff by Ed, Steven or Eric and it all just 'fits' so beautifully you only quibble about little stuff ...).
quote:
If nothing else, they should hire you as a running troubleshooter and fix-it man, cleaning up their mistakes with smooth-sounding Realmslore. Of course, with all the stupidity coming through (I'll not repeat what's been said elsewhere, but you'd know better than me, I'm sure), they'd likely need to clone you about ten times. 
The Realms used to have a traffic cop - Jeff Grubb - who did a fantastic job. Rich Baker fills that role now. I'd love to do it, but then again, what hardcore FR fan wouldn't?
-- George Krashos
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| OrnluTheWolf |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 19:39:49
Thanks GK, answered my questions perfectly.
Bookwyrm, I agree. The phrasing in that post was wonderful, as was the detail and acuracy. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 10:06:02
I think that this ought to be canon, Mr. Krashos. It's pretty well-thought out. I wish WotC would get its act together and start puting things like that in sourcebooks. I realize that they probably have their own agenda, but they sure aren't showing much of one. Or at least one that'll give the Realms the vibrancy it had under TSR.
If nothing else, they should hire you as a running troubleshooter and fix-it man, cleaning up their mistakes with smooth-sounding Realmslore. Of course, with all the stupidity coming through (I'll not repeat what's been said elsewhere, but you'd know better than me, I'm sure), they'd likely need to clone you about ten times. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 23 May 2004 : 09:39:27
quote:
Originally posted by OrnluTheWolf
Got a couple of questions now.....
In other words, some sort of light/dark equilibrium?
As Shar gains followers (and users of her dark or anti- weave), she will gain power. Do you think she will eventually be equal in power to Mystra?
Firstly, these are my thoughts re Mystra, Shar and the shadow weave. I wouldn't take them as 'canon'. Yes, I see Shar gaining some power but not to get her to the level of challenging Mystra's power level. Weave casting is by far the most prevalent form of magic use in Toril. Only a small minority use the shadow weave. Whilst that number may grow, it may be stymied by the fact that Shar and the shadow weave are inextricably linked - and not just anyone wants to end up being a part of what Shar is all about. Read "Temptation of Elminster" and "Silverfall" by Ed Greenwood to see just how Shar's church operates.
quote:
So, if the Netherese didn't use much Shadow magic because of Mystra's power/active-involvement, why are they such powerful shadow mages when Shade returns?
Finally, what about the "shadow self" or dark alter-ego described in "Return of the Warchwizards?
The citizens of Shade (other than a few - less than one hundred IMHO - surviving Netherese) are the only true Netherese in the Realms. They have lived on the plane of shadow since -339DR. They embraced the shadow weave and shadow magic due to their 'home' location and because they were or became Shar worshippers and she used them as her pet shadow weave users. Over the centuries, their mastery of the shadow weave has increased fantastically - but they are the product of unique circumstances. Other surviving Netherese in Toril proper (such as Larloch, Tabra, Aumvor and a few others) are all weave casters, not shadow weave casters. The wizards of Shade are out of their own special box.
As for the "shadow self" situation, other than being a nice fiction device to show character angst etc. it is likely one of two things - the product of the physical and mental demands arising out of the transfer from one form of casting magic to another (in other words, a manifestation of symptoms brought about by the transition from being a weave caster to a shadow weave caster) or the 'touch' of Shar as she gains another convert and perhaps, surreptitiously, takes a hold over that individual. Shar is a nasty, dangerous lady.
-- George Krashos
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| OrnluTheWolf |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 23:37:32
Got a couple of questions now.....
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The shadow weave is out of the bag and now she has to live with it whilst still protecting and supporting normal weave casting and casters. It's likely that in due course a stalemate will be established with neither side gaining ground against the other as they co-exist, albeit uncomfortably.
In other words, some sort of light/dark equilibrium?
As Shar gains followers (and users of her dark or anti- weave), she will gain power. Do you think she will eventually be equal in power to Mystra?
quote:
So why wasn't shadow weave/shadow magic more prevalent following the fall of Netheril? Simply, if we look at Mystra's actions following the fall of her predecessor, she becomes a deity that is extremely concerned about the uses, abuses and manipulations of the weave and magic.
So, if the Netherese didn't use much Shadow magic because of Mystra's power/active-involvement, why are they such powerful shadow mages when Shade returns?
Finally, what about the "shadow self" or dark alter-ego described in "Return of the Warchwizards? |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 02:38:09
Shadow magic has always been a source of literary excitement for FR novelists. We have the shadow magic shown in "Crypt of the Shadowking" and its sequel, the shadow magic shown in Rich Baker's transplanted Birthright novel "The Shadow Stone" and the shadow magic in the "Return of the Archwizards" trilogy by Troy 'RSE' Denning.
FRCS 'canonised' the concept of the shadow weave - an anti-weave created by the goddess Shar in direct opposition to Mystra. This has created much scholarly (and not so scholarly) debate about when the shadow weave was created, who was aware of it, how is it used, etc. The shadow weave concept, whilst IMHO not a bad one, shows the difficulty in retro-fitting large-scale changes to fundamental aspects of a long established campaign world - especially one as detailed as the Realms.
Be that as it may, we have the shadow weave now - we have to live with it. I have had a few random thoughts as to the whys and wherefores of the shadow weave. Essentially I've tried to link established FR lore with the "new" existence of this phenomenon. Basically, I think Shar took advantage of the destruction of Mystryl and the disruption to the weave brought about by Karsus to create the shadow weave. This gives a dating of after -339DR for its formation which is at odds with "The Shadow Stone" and its idea that Imaskar used shadow weave or shadow magic.
The Imaskari were known as the Artificers and rabidly anti-deities. This is clear from other FR sources. Hence it is hard to understand how they would have embraced the shadow weave/magic given its divine origins. My thoughts are that only a very few, renegade Imaskari led by Madryoch the Ebon Flame (the Imaskari from "The Shadow Stone") were granted access to shadow magic via a mini-version of the shadow weave, a prototype if you will, centered on the shadow stone itself and created by Shar for this purpose.
When she realised that shadow magic could work (and she could grant access to it without Mystryl's approval), she went ahead and waited for the right time to create the true shadow weave, which she did following the destruction of Mystryl.
So why wasn't shadow weave/shadow magic more prevalent following the fall of Netheril? Simply, if we look at Mystra's actions following the fall of her predecessor, she becomes a deity that is extremely concerned about the uses, abuses and manipulations of the weave and magic. She sponsors Azuth to godhood, creates the office of Magister, begins creating a bunch of Chosen (many, many more than have been described in extant realmslore - see the last chapters of "The Temptation of Elminster" for a glimpse of Chosen over the centuries) and creates her Shadowstaves, Puirsuivant Arcanes and Weavespinners (all detailed in "Secrets of the Magister") They are her traffic cops. It is easy to see how these forces would have focused on defying Shar and her minions at every turn and thwarting all attempts to get the shadow weave and the means of accessing it into the general knowledge of the Torilian spellcasting community. Call it an underground war between two rival factions over "turf".
The Time of Troubles and the Avatar Crisis, with the fall of Mystra and her replacement by the inexperienced Mystra II, was just the opportunity Shar needed. She was the same old Shar, had her minions and plans in place, and used the time and space afforded to her by Mystra II having to "find her feet" as goddess of magic to promote the shadow weave and shadow weave casting among spellcasters of the Realms and set into motion the events that would return Shade to Faerun.
At the moment, Mystra II is in damage control and playing catch-up. The shadow weave is out of the bag and now she has to live with it whilst still protecting and supporting normal weave casting and casters. It's likely that in due course a stalemate will be established with neither side gaining ground against the other as they co-exist, albeit uncomfortably. Shar also may find that being the controller of the Shadow Weave, now that it is being accessed more and more, is not all that it's cracked up to be. It may require a greater amount of her divine essence and time to monitor and maintain it, placing significant demands on her divinity and perhaps leaving her vulnerable to other members of the pantheon who have designs on other aspects of her portfolio (a rejuvenated Lolth - if she ever gets rejuvenated - might be looking to steal her Underdark portfolio, Mask might go for darkness and unrevealed secrets, etc.). It looks like the shadow weave may have yet more far-reaching ramifications ... not all of them good for Shar.
Thanks for being patient with my musings.
-- George Krashos |
| OrnluTheWolf |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 19:15:30
Bookwrym, I'm not familiar with Shar's weave. I would assume that is what is heavily referenced in The Return of the Archwizards, but other that that (and The Shadow Stone), the only shadow weave material I've read was in the FRCS. Will you explain Shar's Weave? |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 13:06:17
Well, even if the shadow magic described in the book uses the Shadow Weave (since you can have normal shadow magic with the regular Weave), this was before third edition Realms, which laid out the rules for Shar's Weave. |
| OrnluTheWolf |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 01:35:44
I was captivated by The Shadow Stone a few months back, but unfortunatly lost the book before I could read the last 30 pages or so. (I was actually reading during a boring economics class and left the book in the room by mistake, never to see it again.) While the book was excelent in its language and imagry, its descriptions of how shadow magic works didn't quite seem to line up with the other texts I've read on the subject (which, sadly, only include Return of the Archwizards and the FRCS). This incongruency was easily overlooked, however, and so I enjoyed the book right up until I lost it.
Back to the matter at hand, the book basicly described the Imaraski as an ancient civilization that was dark and mysterious, with magic even more powerful that the Netherese, but beyond that I don't remember much. I don't believe it gave any super-specific descriptions of their magic, but (if I remember right) the texts the main character (whose name I have forgotten) uses to increase his shadow magic ability and even the novel's villian are both Imaraski.
Searching for the book on the internet rewarded me with this site:
http://www.wizards.com/catalog/product.asp?tsr08587
and also http://fantasticadaily.com/book_review.php?bID=108
It's amazing what you can find when you simply type in "The Shadow Stone" into google. Anyway, check on ebay ocasionally for it. They usually have a good assortment of FR books. |
| Hymn |
Posted - 18 May 2004 : 03:32:17
Hmm, sounds like the book I am after and yet not. Will see later today or tomorrow when I get it. |
| VEDSICA |
Posted - 17 May 2004 : 20:34:13
Rad I thot the same thing about the book.It did well in explaining The Weave and spellcasting mechainics |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 17 May 2004 : 10:45:16
It's that space you placed in the URL. Try this instead. Though if it's the post I think it's supposed to be, you need to scroll up slightly to see it. It seems to point to the one right under it instead. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 17 May 2004 : 10:32:28
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've got the book, but it's been a couple years since I read it.... It simply failed to grab me.
Ditto. Probably it has to do with the fact that it was originally intended for the Birthright setting and got shoehorned into FR. The whole book felt... unnatural, like it doesn't belong to FR, and read more like generic fantasy than anything.
Here's a question I asked Rich about the Shadow Stone a while back...
Click here:
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=1568223&highlight=shadow stone#post1568223
Edit: Cntrl-F + "Shadow Stone" once you get there, as this link seems to refuse sending people directly to the post... |
| Lord Rad |
Posted - 17 May 2004 : 09:59:00
Charming! I asked opinions of this novel not too long ago and was told it was a very good read. I since started it and found the beginning to be quite well done. Its dragging on a little bit now though and I cant see which path its likely to take (which is probably a positive point).
I, too, get that 'detached from the Realms' type of feeling though. What I will say, is that it does very well to describe and explain the mechanics of the Weave and spellcasting. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 17 May 2004 : 07:50:12
Hmm. Hadn't known about that. I didn't think it was too bad, but I was pure-novels in those days -- I had no idea about the place it was happening in, so I just figured any odd feel was just the author working in a region new to me.
Again, I didn't think it was too bad. Perhaps a bit generic, yes, and the ending wasn't a page-turner. But I wouldn't shoot it down completely. |
| Winterfox |
Posted - 17 May 2004 : 05:58:20
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've got the book, but it's been a couple years since I read it.... It simply failed to grab me.
Ditto. Probably it has to do with the fact that it was originally intended for the Birthright setting and got shoehorned into FR. The whole book felt... unnatural, like it doesn't belong to FR, and read more like generic fantasy than anything. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 May 2004 : 02:40:20
quote:
Originally posted by Hymn
So have I heard. But I thought I would give it a chance at least
*shrugs* It's worth a shot, at least. To each his own, and all that. |
| Hymn |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 20:33:24
So have I heard. But I thought I would give it a chance at least |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 18:06:52
I've got the book, but it's been a couple years since I read it.... It simply failed to grab me. |
| Hymn |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 15:06:26
Sure will do, to bad it's sunday or it had allready been on its way. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 15:04:48
Well, there you go then. Happy reading. |
| Hymn |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 14:58:36
ah, found it in my local bookshop, don't know why I didn' look there to begin with Must be that is to close |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 14:53:59
Yes, but used copies are shipped by the owner; Amazon just provides space online for them to show what they have for sale. Maybe you could find someone who would ship it that far? |
| Hymn |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 14:48:01
Sadly I live in Sweden, they don't ship overseas. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 14:36:17
Amazon has it listed as ten copies available used. |
| Hymn |
Posted - 16 May 2004 : 14:26:30
Well the it's kind of blurry hints (or so I think of the excerpts made from the book I have seen) Cant even find a copy with it's ISBN number
Here is one as an example:
"The old Imaskari sorcerers used knowledge they'd learned from creatures of immortal evil to record their spells. They weren't priests, really - they didn't draw their magic directly from the dark powers they severed. They only used what they'd been taught to work their own sorcery" - Page 286 "The Shadow Stone" by Richard Baker.
I wish I could get my hands on it would make it so much easier *sigh* |
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