| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| mother1219 |
Posted - 30 Mar 2004 : 19:53:55
Instead of spamming each author's thread, I thought I'd just ask this here generally. Also, I'd be curious to see other folks opinions.
What do you think about Writer's Associations like SFWA? I scanned the list of authors on the SFWA site and saw names like Jordan, Heinlein, etc., so I know at least some popular SF/F authors are members.
What are some of the pro's and con's in your mind?
Anyone should feel free to answer. If some of the professional authors here wouldn't mind including if they have joined a group like this, or if not, why not, that would be great.
Thank you.
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Erin Tettensor |
Posted - 15 Apr 2004 : 18:51:32
Good to know, thanks. With the limited time I have available, I'd rather not waste my time with make-work projects that aren't going to help me out anyway. I guess I'll just have to do my best to figure out that magic formula that catches an agent's eye in the query letter. |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 15 Apr 2004 : 18:05:04
Zyx, when I had an agent (I'm flying solo these days), I got her via the query letter route, so it can be done. As to whether that's the way most people do it, I can't say. My general feeling about going to writer's conferences, workshops, the big sf conventions, etc., and networking and schmoozing relentlessly is that if you're lucky and not too obnoxious when meeting folks face to face, it can indeed grease the ramp for you, but a lot of people never do that stuff and succeed anyway. Which is a good thing, because some of us aren't good at that kind of thing, or feel very uncomfortable doing it. Or, as you say, live in the boonies and for whatever reason--lack of funds, lack of time, obligations--can't make World Fantasy Con, World SF Con, and what have you.
With regard to selling a short story related to your novel, my feeling is that it's not going to make any difference to a book editor one way or the other. Not unless the short story won a major award or got picked for a Year's Best anthology, and possibly not even then. So do the short story if you feel like it--it's not going to hurt anything--but I doubt it's going to score any points for you when you try to peddle the book. |
| Erin Tettensor |
Posted - 15 Apr 2004 : 15:49:50
Thanks, Richard. That makes me feel better, at any rate.
Since I have your ear (eye?), I'll ask you another question, if you don't mind:
I've read repeatedly that the majority of published authors get their first agent through networking, whether through an established author they know or, more commonly, by attending workshops and writer's groups. Is this true? If so, what do those of us who live in the boonies do about it? (Apologies to any Swiss people who might be reading this, but honestly I've seen abandoned warehouses more exciting than this place.)
What I need right now is a good strategy to get myself out of the slush pile. I have a friend who used to work the slush at Harper Collins, and she tells me that even if your work is good, you're still very unlikely to be rescued from the mire. It's really a major stroke of luck if you are. And as for agents, they seem to think they can gauge the calibre and saleability of someone's work based on three paragraphs. Gifted people, obviously.
Is it perhaps a good idea to sell a piece of short fiction based on a scene or characters from your novel? That way, over and above the obvious value of showing you've sold your work to other markets, you might establish that this particular property is attractive to others. Is that a viable strategy, or is it more likely to damage your chances because the 'cat's out of the bag'? |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 14 Apr 2004 : 14:56:27
The established code of conduct is, no simultaneous submissions except to those rare editors or agents who say they are willing to consider them.
But I'll tell you, after you've had somebody sit on a submission for six months, nine months, a year or more--and at some point, if my own experience is anythng to go on, this is very likely to happen to you--if you start wondering if there isn't a way to finesse the established code a little, well, you certainly won't be the first writer to think such thoughts. |
| Erin Tettensor |
Posted - 14 Apr 2004 : 09:21:07
Thanks for the reply, Richard.
On the subject of lying, I've never been much good at it anyway. All that would happen is I'd spend night after night staring at the ceiling wondering if those agents knew each other and I'd get caught out. It's not a course of action I've ever seriously considered; I guess I was just trying to illustrate what a bind that situation puts you in.
I took the first course when this happened to me. But as you guessed, by the time it came down to the third agent, it was several months since I had received his letter. I can't say for sure whether that mattered, but since he was the only agent that didn't even reply with a rejection letter, I'm suspicious that it might have. (It's always possible, of course, that the MS just wasn't that good. A year and a half after writing it, I'm beginning to think so myself.)
It's moot at the moment -- I haven't got any queries in circulation. But I was secretly hoping there was some established code of conduct in this situation that would keep you out of trouble. Agents seem to have strict do's and dont's about everything else, after all. They should make a rule! |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 13 Apr 2004 : 21:17:53
Congratulations, Zyx!
The simultaneous submission question is a thorny one. The long turn-around times we encounter when we send a book manuscript or proposal to an editor or an agent are the writer's bane, and that's a fact. But even so, I would definitely not lie. It's unethical, and it could come back on you in an unfortunate way. So don't say that you are not making a simultaneous submission if, in fact, you are.
I think your idea of dealing with the agents one at a time is probably the right one. The downside is that, if the first couple guys decide not to represent you, when you send your stuff to the next agent on the list, you're probably going to be responding to a letter that's at least six months old. But maybe it won't come to that.
The only even halfway viable alternative I can see is to make simultaneous submissions and, in your cover letters, don't address the question of whether they are or aren't simultaneous one way or the other. That way, you aren't playing by the rules the agent said he wanted you to play by, but at least you aren't actually lying to him, either. You could still wind up in an awkward situation, though, and that's definitely not the course of action I recommend.
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| Erin Tettensor |
Posted - 13 Apr 2004 : 16:40:08
I just wanted to thank everybody who has participated in this string. As a brand-new "pro" (I too just made my first sale to the Realms of the Dragons anthology -- thanks Richard!) these are issues that I've been wrestling with for some time. My experience is rather different from my fellow Canadian's, though. I am new to Forgotten Realms, though not to WoTC (I was a Dragonlance junkie when I was a kid). I have been pursuing my writing as a full-time career for nearly two years now, and have two completed and one near-complete novel to show for it.
On the subject of spending so much time writing something "on-spec", I can only say that while writing a novel is no doubt a huge commitment, it's also an enormous high. If you didn't get that kind of kick out of writing, why would you do it? It certainly isn't for the dental benefits. I can also tell you that while it is generally the case that publishers don't accept unsolicited manuscripts, it is not always so. Both DAW and Tor, major fantasy imprints both, accept unsolicited work. DAW is an imprint of Penguin-Putnam, and their response times are actually quite reasonable. (Or so they claim. I haven't quite screwed up the courage to put them to the test yet.) But even if this weren't the case, I can think of no other way to learn your craft. Because I can tell you that for me, there's absolutely no comparison between where I am now and where I was a year ago.
I can personally recommend the Guide to Literary Agents, published annually, as a sourcebook. It lists agents by genre, which is enormously helpful, and includes only AAR accredited agents.(It even has a separate listing of Canadian agents, if you choose to go that route.) But I'm inclined to agree with those authors who said that you're more likely to get noticed as a novice by a publisher than an agent. That certainly agrees with the research I've done on this subject, which is pretty extensive.
Ultimately, though, there's no substitute for the anecdotal experience of published authors, which is why I'm grateful for fora like this. Thanks again, guys.
ps -- does anybody know the etiquette of the following situation:
You have sent a query letter to all and sundry, thinking you'll receive nothing but rejections. But --oops!-- several agents nibble at your line, and they all want the MS. Trouble is, they don't accept simultaneous submissions.
Do you treat these in order? Do you lie and hope for the best? This has already happened to me once, and I think I handled it badly. Anyone have any advice? |
| Shadowlord |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 22:08:30
I thought so, but a friend of mine insisted I ask someone else... Ah well, thanks James.  |
| JamesLowder |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 21:45:52
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
Just a small question. Phil Athans (a noted Realmsian Editor) is beginning to write the fifth book in the War of the Spider Queen Series. Would being an author qualify you to be an editor, or vice versa?
Editing and writing are two very different skill sets. As a writer, you are trying to express your creative vision. As an editor, your job is to help the writer express his or her creative vision in a clear, entertaining way. There's some crossover between the skill sets, but not all writers have the right mindset to be editors (they act as co-writers, not as editors), and not all editors have the creative prose skills to create an original work.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
| JamesLowder |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 21:41:04
quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Donohue
I am unpublished author.I send a detailed outline with chapter by chapter description. I send a submission sample along with it. I eagerly await the weeks to receive feedback, and then I get not a form letter but a rare written letter from the editor or editor in chief. Since I am on shared world forum, lets for sake of argument make it in a shared world. In the 3 small little paragraphs, the letter goes on to explain the reasons that they are rejecting it. It has no comments to indicate that prose, sentructure, or that you haven't matched the style of the publishing company. What it does mention is that unbeknownest to you the author submitting a totally random concept or set of ideas, happens by sheer luck to have similar ideas to something known only in house and in their pipeline.
A handy thumbnail guide to rejection letters (and I have written and received many over the past 15+ years):
* Editors are incredibly busy. When I was handling "slush" (unsolicited manuscripts/submissions) at TSR, I got dozens of letters and manuscripts day. For the zombie fiction anthologies I recently edited for Eden Studios, I had hundreds and hundreds of submissions. I had Xerox boxes full of them. To write and print my response to each submission took--let's minimize it--five minutes. Not a lot of time, right? Now multiply that times 750 submissions--it adds up to 62.5 hours. And this is just the time to respond to them, not the time required to read the submissions. (And there are really no editors these days who just read submissions; the editors reading the slush are also supposed to be editing books already on the schedule, and going to marketing meetings, cover design meetings, sleeping now and then....)
So if you get any sort of personalized reply, be happy.
* A rejection means your work was not right for that market or project. That's all you can know for certain. Your story could be great, your writing spectacular, but still not right for the publisher or magazine or the specific project that's being put together. As an editor I've rejected stories that went on to be reprinted in Year's Best collections, and rejected books that went on to great acclaim at other publishers. I'm OK with that. I didn't reject them because they were bad, but because they wouldn't have worked well for that publisher or that project. Or it could be that your writing is bad, or this story or proposal a flop. But a rejection, by itself, will not tell you which.
* Just about every author gets rejected. I have. Lots of times. As an editor, I've turned down stories or novel proposals from many of the published writers on this forum, and lots of other "names" too. It doesn't mean they aren't fine writers. The pitch they made didn't fit the spot I was looking to fill.
* While you can only know with any certainty that your rejected work was not right for a project, seriously consider any criticism you receive, especially if an editor took the time to offer specific, personalized comments. If an editor says your characters need work, give it some thought. If you're ever going to improve as a writer, you need to be self-critical. You need to be your own harshest editor/critic. Of course, editors can be wrong. Don't assume that all criticism of your work from an editor (or a reviewer) is correct. But give it some honest consideration and use it to help you develop a strong critical inner voice.
As for the note you got--the publisher may have felt it was important to let you know that your work was a lot like something in the pipeline, so that you wouldn't feel that they had ripped you off--stolen your idea. If I were you, I would follow up on the letter, addressed to the editor who sent it to you, with a note that thanks her or him for the reply, then note something along the lines of "I'm happy to hear the idea I pitched was close to what you're already pursuing. I think that shows I'm thinking about the line the right way. Is there a way for me to do another writing sample so we can test that further?" Include a SASE for a possible reply.
You'll be able to get a better sense of the intent of the first letter from there.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
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| Shadowlord |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 20:53:04
Just a small question. Phil Athans (a noted Realmsian Editor) is beginning to write the fifth book in the War of the Spider Queen Series. Would being an author qualify you to be an editor, or vice versa? |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 18:32:12
Bruce: It's me again. Realized I didn't say everything I wanted to say in my preceding post.
To avoid frustration and disappointment, you need to be realistic in your expectations of editors. An editor is not paid to be your writing teacher or your friend. He's paid to procure publishable, profitable material for the publisher with a certain degree of efficiency.
He's also extremely busy. Part of the reason he's busy is that he receives a constant deluge of submissions. You say to yourself, "Gee, it would only take him a couple minutes to give me some really helpful feedback." Maybe, but if he makes it his practice to give helpful feedback on all the manuscripts he processes, there goes a huge part of his work time. And remember, he's got other tasks besides processing submissions. He's got to edit the books he does acquire.
Despite his heavy workload, an editor may take the time to give you some sort of personal feedback. My advice would be, when that happens, be grateful, and take it as a sign that the editor likely sees something of merit in your writing, which makes him a good person to submit to again. And when it doesn't happen, when you just get the form rejection letter, be understanding of the editor's circumstances, and don't resent it, and don't take it as an indication that you should not try that market again in the future. |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 18:16:43
Bruce, I think that most any pro will tell you, if you let yourself, you can easily go nuts brooding about the reasons an editor gives you for rejecting a particular submission. Sometimes the explanation really doesn't seem to make logical sense from the writer's perspective.
But you know what? Ultimately, it makes no difference if the stated reasons for rejecting your material make sense. It also makes no diference if you understand them. Either way, you're left in the same place: your stuff got rejected. It happens to everybody sometimes. If you're serious about launching or continuing a pro writing career, you'll write something new and submit that, to the same editor or another. And you'll submit the rejected stuff to a different market if that's possible. |
| Bruce Donohue |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 07:42:50
Thank you all so very much. The words were indeed greatly appreciated. I am still mind you faced with my own personal confusion and reservations about getting an agent. The advice that you all gave me is what had indeed crossed my minds since I picked up a book at the librairy on the subject of agents.
James, as you mentioned, I am indeed doing this for me first and foremost. I completed a novel all my own, and on my own time that has about 450 pages to it.
One thing that has always puzzled me though about the industry is one little fact that just completely stuns me senseless. Let me give an example to better explain.
I am unpublished author.I send a detailed outline with chapter by chapter description. I send a submission sample along with it. I eagerly await the weeks to receive feedback, and then I get not a form letter but a rare written letter from the editor or editor in chief. Since I am on shared world forum, lets for sake of argument make it in a shared world. In the 3 small little paragraphs, the letter goes on to explain the reasons that they are rejecting it. It has no comments to indicate that prose, sentructure, or that you haven't matched the style of the publishing company. What it does mention is that unbeknownest to you the author submitting a totally random concept or set of ideas, happens by sheer luck to have similar ideas to something known only in house and in their pipeline.
Why would they refuse an author for that? If they are sending a submission for consideration to join the other stable of authors in their employ, why would they refuse the author if they aren't in the first place basing their decision on your story idea, but on your capability to write? That statement completely baffles me. This is my opinion, if I were the editor, I would view it as so: "Great, we have an unpublished author that knows our style, writes well enough for us to consider, they know the world and the style, I have to spend less time grooming the 'new person', and I don't have to use a valuable staff employee either to help them along the way. Without any knowledge they have hit on ideas and story lines that we with our marketing staff view is a highly sellable concept. If they can predict this without any knowledge naturally, than imagine what he or she could do when we give them an assignment. All I will have to due is give a suggestion here or there and sit back and watch the magic they can come up with."
Maybe it is just me, that I maybe I am too logical, or simply I do not fully grasp the point of view of an editor.
In quest for knowledge and better understanding I hope that this will not be perceived as being naive or simply too bold. Please this is not my intent, I am just trying to get a better sense and appreciation as to what indeed an editor truly is.
If an editor takes the time to have someone make up a form letter or they do it themselves and they have also taken the time to read and decide if they subjectively like your story or not, how much more time does it really take to write a couple paragraphs of feedback to point the writter in the right direction, where they need more experience in honing their craft, or what they didn't like the story? If there are indeed too busy to re-type the form letter, don't most have a secretary that can type up the 100 to 150 words that they might at max write up in regards to feedback? Since most secretaries type in the 50 to 60+ word per minute count, it would take less than two minutes to do. |
| ElaineCunningham |
Posted - 04 Apr 2004 : 00:36:19
Agents play several roles, but their primary one is that of a salesman. They need a marketable product, which means either a completed manuscript or an author with a proven track record. And even then, the Brand Name Author must have a new and viable product to sell. (For example, an agent could most likely seize an editor's attention with an opening such as, "I've just acquired J.K. Rowling as a client. Would you like to see a proposal for her next series?")
Sometimes you can sell a book from a proposal. This is especially true in shared-world writing. Elfshadow was accepted from a proposal in a situation very similar to Kameron Franklin's. I was offered a Star Wars novel on the strength of Bob Salvatore's recommendation. After writing fifteen shared-world books, I'd probably have an easier time moving into another shared world than an aspiring writer would have of breaking into that same world. Ditto with "book packaging," in which a writer does an original story based on someone's story concept -- very similar to shared-world writing. In such circumstances, a finished novel probably isn't going to help you land the job. A good proposal, a writing sample that shows talent, flexiblity -- that's what shared-world writing requires. I've received many emails from aspiring writers eager to sell their trilogies to WotC. Continuity control, a good balance of stories, conflicts with or duplication of ideas already in the pipeline -- these are just a few of the reasons why this approach is unlikely to get the WotC nod.
But for something other than shared-world fiction, I wouldn't submit a proposal and sample chapters. Completed manuscript only. Milage may differ, but here's my POV.
If I were an editor, I wouldn't automatically assume that someone who writes sword and sorcery can pull off a convincing historical novel set in 16th century Scotland. I'd want to see a manuscript. Same thing for "original fantasy." A sensible editor would think, Okay, this woman has written 16 short novels in someone else's setting, but that doesn't tell me if she can create an intriguing original setting, or for that matter, handle the pacing of an epic-length tale. |
| JamesLowder |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 23:04:31
quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Donohue
Thanks Richard for the answers.
What Richard said, plus the following.
I'd heard agents are leaning toward taking 20% these days.
The L. Ron Hubbard Writers of the Future Contest helps bring attention to your writing, but it isn't a significant factor in buying stories for any editors I know. I've bought several short stories from WotF winners or runners-up for various anthologies, but didn't really pay attention to that on their cover letters. Like any other credit you might list on your cover letter, it's going to mean different things to different editors.
Agents (like most publishers) want to see finished novels because something that sounds good in an outline may not work well in the actual book. The reverse is true, too--your outline may not reflect your ability to craft spectacular prose; the same book written by two different authors, from the same 10-page outline, could be radically different in quality. And if you have no trak record of published work, you have nothing to point to that indicates you can finish a whole novel, or what the finished book might be like.
In general, the best way to look at writing, at least when you're starting out, is: write because you want to, and write things you enjoy writing. Then find places to sell that material. If you don't sell it, you'll still have a work you're happy you wrote and which satisfied you creatively. If you write what you think will sell, you're left with a story you might not have wasted your time on.
It is actually quite difficult for an unpublished author to get an agent these days. Since most of the larger houses will not read unagented manuscripts, the agents have been given a great deal of power, and they are very, very selective. There are even many published authors who have had some difficulty in getting a good agent to take them on, because the competition is so fierce.
You learn about good agents the same way you do anything else in the industry--research. Read articles in Writer's Digest and Writer magazine. Talk to other writers. Join pro groups like SFWA or HWA--they usually have non-voting "associate" memberships available for people who are working up to full membership.
Three things to note, in addition to, and as amplification of, Richard's good advice on agents:
--A bad agent can hurt your chances of getting published, as well as create nightmares for you in terms of stolen money and wasted time and projects tied up in legal wrangling. And there are many bad and unscrupulous people passing themselves off as agents out there. Do your homework. Before signing on with an agent, make certain that agents represents other clients you've heard of, with books on the shelves from publishers you've heard of, and make certain you talk to some of those clients as references, too. Check out the "Writers Beware" web page and other resources on publishing scams.
--Always remember, money flows toward the writer. You should not be paying out of pocket to your agent for expenses--the agent makes his or her money when he or she sells your work. (The same is true with publishers--if a publiher requires you to pay anything to get your book into print, it's a bad deal.)
--Never, never, never sign a contract without having a lawyer--and not just any lawyer, but one familiar with publishing contracts and IP (intellectual property) law--take a look at it. But you need to do your homework about contracts, too. You should be your own backstop in all business matters like this. Learn about contracts and rights and copyright before you start sending any stories anywhere, to an agent or a publisher. (The Copyright Handbook, published by Nolo Press, is a good place to start on the general topic of copyright.)
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 23:03:13
Bruce D.: You can find listings of agents. I believe Writer's Digest Press publishes a yearly book, and also has a briefer listing of agents in the annual edition of Writer's Market. These lists typically tell you what kind of material the agent is interested in representing, and maybe who some of his bigger-name clients are.
If you get hold of a SFWA or HWA directory (presumably by joining the organizations, or begging a favaor from someone who's a member), you'll find agents listed among the other members.
Then, as I indicated in my last past, you send a query letter. If you're lucky, they'll ask to see a submission, and then, if you're even luckier, it will impress them so much that they'll take you on as a client, unpublished or no. It does happen.
An agent who has no interest in taking on a beginner presumably will not respond positively to your query, so you only wasted as much time and money on that guy as it took to send the letter.
But you're right, it's not easy for an unpublished writer to get an agent, and therefore, I think it's the wrong approach if you ONLY query agents about your book or book proposal. If you want to try to get an agent, there's no harm in taking a shot at it, but at the same time that you're approaching agents, you should also be querying publishers to get them to look at your stuff. It's entirely possible you'll find an editor who thinks you're the next Tolkien before you find an agent who recognizes your genius.
Why should you write a complete novel on spec? Maybe you shouldn't. Every writer is different, every person's circumstances are different, and perhaps it would be the wrong move for you. But on the other hand, there may be some advantages to it.
Once you write a novel from start to finish, you'll know that, in fact, you're capable of completing the task. That's a good thing to be sure of. Also, for many of us, the only way to really learn to write novel-length stories well (perhaps at all) is to sit down and knock the darn things out. You'll likely develop your novelist skills by writing complete novels much more than you will just by doing the opening chapters and synopsis for a book proposal.
Also, some editors and agents may be more interested in a query that says, "I've written a novel" than in one that says, "I've got an idea for a novel, and can send sample chapters and an outline." Because before they go into business with a beginner, maybe they'd like to be sure that you can actually go the distance. |
| Kameron M. Franklin |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 22:57:07
quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Donohue
Thanks Richard for the answers.
How does one find an agent? How does one attract an agent in the first place if you have never had anything published in the first place? Wouldn't it be most a waste of money for the unpublished author to even solicit the services of an agent in the first place? Maybe it is just me, but I haven't heard of many unpublished authors having any real success using an agent to help them get the first infamous foot in the door, or that first contract and therefore no longer be considered amongst the ranks of the unpublished.
You can purchase directories of agents or probably even find some online. You attract an agent with a query letter (as Richard said) and then a work sample, usually 3 chapters plus a synopsis, or a finished manuscript. If you plan only to write short stories then yes, getting an agent is not necessary. However, most of the major publishers do not accept unsolicited manuscripts, which means you have to use an agent to get them to even look at your work.
quote:
Secondly, you mentioned in regards to agents they sometimes want to see a completed novel. I thought about this, and in my personal opinion, why would I want to technically do that?
Publishing companies never take unsolicited novels; they take either only submission samples or short stories at most. Yes I realize that novels are what is the ultimate goal, hence why you are writing in the first place (for the love of writing and to want to pursue it on a totally different level). Having said that, I can hone my craft and gain experience much more quickly if I write many short stories and submissions. Being all authors yourselves, I am sure you can attest to the fact that writing a novel is much more time consuming than writing a short story, or a compelling submission sample that runs between 10 to 20 pages.
After all I have to think about my so called "real time job", other mundane responsibilities of daily life, then I have to think of a story, write it, edit it over and over, then put on my salesman and marketing hat, write a polite, down-to-earth, well though out query letter that demonstrates both interest (hinted but not blatantly demonstrating my eagerness) and knowledge of the medium (all their guideline rules of each particular publishing company). Maybe it is just me, but I will deal with writing a complete novel when I cross that bridge, until then I have secure the opportunity to write that first illustrious novel.
I answered the first part above. Novel writing is a big investment, but it is a much bigger pay off compared to short stories. Authors write because they love the craft, but they also have bills to pay. Agents and publishers don't purchase ideas, so that means you have to have a product to hand over to them before contracts are signed. Once you've proven yourself (whatever that means), it is likely that your publisher will offer future contracts without having to see the finished product first.
Now, there are exceptions. Take me for example. I got the Maiden contract with only a 10 page sample and synopsis, but again, that is the exception, not the rule. I have my own novels I'd like to publish, so I'll be looking for an agent in the next year, after I've completed a large chunk of the manuscript for my first book so I have something to show. |
| Bruce Donohue |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 18:12:56
Thanks Richard for the answers.
How does one find an agent? How does one attract an agent in the first place if you have never had anything published in the first place? Wouldn't it be most a waste of money for the unpublished author to even solicit the services of an agent in the first place? Maybe it is just me, but I haven't heard of many unpublished authors having any real success using an agent to help them get the first infamous foot in the door, or that first contract and therefore no longer be considered amongst the ranks of the unpublished.
I guess what I am trying to say, is this... I am debating getting an agent or not because so far, my own attempts have not been fruitful and thought that maybe an agent would help in regards to landing that first contract. In regards to the 13 try thing, well you are right it probably is just bogus (some myths say even you need to be of a certain age), but so is the thinking that you can get published on the first try idea. After all how many people out there have on their rejection letters the famous courteous words: "Every author started somewhere, and no one was published on their first attempt."
Secondly, you mentioned in regards to agents they sometimes want to see a completed novel. I thought about this, and in my personal opinion, why would I want to technically do that?
Publishing companies never take unsolicited novels; they take either only submission samples or short stories at most. Yes I realize that novels are what is the ultimate goal, hence why you are writing in the first place (for the love of writing and to want to pursue it on a totally different level). Having said that, I can hone my craft and gain experience much more quickly if I write many short stories and submissions. Being all authors yourselves, I am sure you can attest to the fact that writing a novel is much more time consuming than writing a short story, or a compelling submission sample that runs between 10 to 20 pages.
After all I have to think about my so called "real time job", other mundane responsibilities of daily life, then I have to think of a story, write it, edit it over and over, then put on my salesman and marketing hat, write a polite, down-to-earth, well though out query letter that demonstrates both interest (hinted but not blatantly demonstrating my eagerness) and knowledge of the medium (all their guideline rules of each particular publishing company). Maybe it is just me, but I will deal with writing a complete novel when I cross that bridge, until then I have secure the opportunity to write that first illustrious novel.
Though this may sound weird, I tend to follow the rule of writing about what I know and like. Personally, having gone through a few submissions and the various form letters, I now write for me because I have to since it is bigger than me and though frustrating at times, brings me so much more rewards of personal satisfaction. On the flip side of that coin, I would be a hypocrite if I even thought of denying that fact that I wouldn't want to get published. I can't speak for other unpublished authors, yet for me, as much as I love to write for myself and hear the enjoyment of friends that they liked the story, so to is the strong pulled desire to share it with the rest of the world and see my words in print.
It is not the money; it is not the delusions of notoriety that is my principal muse, but more a feeling and a sense of having accomplished something. That one has beaten the odds, that one has persevered despite all the negativity and the once voiced words that your dream can't come true did indeed see the light of day. Hell, maybe all you Forgotten Realms writers shared this thought or not at one time or another when you first started, but strangely enough I could honestly say, that even if I only got one book published in my lifetime, I would go out happy knowing that I did it.
Maybe for me it is even more poignant. Because when I see authors little blurbs describing a brief description of their background in their published books, that a little person like me who didn't graduate as a teacher, a journalist, a writer, or from any creative writing program; managed nonetheless to have someone believe that all those hours spent teaching oneself and learning to write creatively on their own steam, succeeded at getting oneself published. It is just like that little story many of us heard as children, about that little train that went up the hill all the while saying to himself: "I think I can, I think I can," and when he finally reached the top of that hill felt like the most special little train in the world.
Sorry I babbled on here, my apologies to the various Realms Authors who may have read this.
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| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 09:12:03
Bruce D: I'm reasonably certain the 13th-time's-the-charm theory is utterly bogus with regard to any publisher or editor in the known universe. You send them a submission they like well enough, and they'll buy it, whether it's your first try or your hundredth. Conversely, if they don't like it enough, they won't accept it, no matter how many times you've tried with them before. That's really all there is to it.
SFWA and HWA are professional associations, yes.
I think you may be talking about the L. RON Hubbard WRITERS of the Future contest? I don't know how seriously editors and publishers regard it, bu I do know that some guys who've won it have gone to establish professional careers.
These days, agents typically take 15% of the advance and royalty money they help you earn. (Never, ever pay an agent money out of your pocket for any reason whatsoever.) The first step in getting one is to send him a query letter. If what you say sparks his interest, he'll ask you to send him a writing sample, maybe the entire manuscript of your novel, maybe the first three chapters and a synopsis or something like that.
Note that I say, your novel. Agents peddle book projects. They usually aren't interested in short fiction because the money they could make hawking it isn't worth their while. And you can peddle your short stories without an agent's help anyway. So, if you're currently doing short fiction but haven't gotten going on a novel yet, don't worry about securing representation.
It's very hard for a beginning writer to tell a good agent from a bad one. Heck, in my opinion, it can be tough even if you've been a pro for a good long while. But here are some very basic guidelines:
You want an agent who represents a number of other clients who write the same kind of stuff you do.
The agent should be making sales for those clients.
If you get a chance to talk to them, those clients should be willing to recommend the agent.
The agent's office should be in New York City (where the greater part of the book business is) or so close to NYC that he gets into the city often to meet face to face with editors.
The agent should not ask you to sign a contract that will make it costly or horribly difficult to part company with him if your relationship goes south.
And, I reiterate, the agent should not ask you to give him cash for a reading fee, photocopying, postage, or anything else. He should have to sell your work both to earn any money and to recoup any incidental expenses incurred in the process.
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| Bruce Donohue |
Posted - 03 Apr 2004 : 08:11:04
I have a few question to the esteemed authors here.
Wanting to know if this is more of a myth than anything else...
I was once told that if there isn't an open contest, that an unpublished author must demonstrate, via various submissions, at least 12 attempts to the same publishing company before one is considered to be serious, and two before the publishing company really notices who and what your writing style is really about. That usually on the 13th attempt, that it seems to be the lucky number and when they finally take you on in a some role as a test.
My second question is... the previous organizations are all pro writers or semi pro-writers associations aren't they not? Does the John Hubbard Star of the Future Award have much recognition in the industry?
Though affliated with SFFNET, I am part of a Writer's Forum called Critters. Org (http://www.critters.org). This a private authors forum, one can join and all the submitted material is protected, allows people to put up their stories for the other members to critique. It offers the prospective author the possibility to gain valuable feedback, from not only other peers, but some pro members as well. In exchange for having your story critiqued, you must also critique others in order to stay in good standing to have further stories of yours critiqued. Critters, is a site dedicated to Fantasy, Horror, and Science Fiction stories only. All stories are welcome and none are really ever belittled in any way. So far though sci-fi stories seem to be the most prelevent. I recommend it to anyone. They also have a list of fellow authors in a little honor roll, that have been published and their comments afterwards, since 3/4 of posters were unpublished before.
Now a question about getting an Agent. When one is unpublished, how does one attract an agent to be willing to take you on to go up to bat for you and presenting a story to a publishing company? How much do agents normally charge for services? Is it even worth while for an unpublished author to even think of hiring an agent? How does one, who has never had an agent before, weed out which is a good agent and which one is not? What criteria makes for a good agent to help an unpublished author get published? In other words, what does one look for? |
| JamesLowder |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 20:35:40
quote:
Originally posted by mother1219
Quote:Note to those thinking, "What's he talking about?": Mr. Lowder was kind enough several weeks ago to offer some excellent advise to me about short story writing and, obviously, something worked. So thank you again Mr. Lowder.
Glad the exchange was useful. Congratulations on landing the story contract!
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
| mother1219 |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 16:42:54
Quote:
quote:
Pro org membership has never really influenced my opinion as an editor, and I don't know of any editors who weight it significantly. (I used to know one editor for a gaming fiction publisher who actually counted it as a minor strike against a writer.) Shawna McCarthy at Realms of Fantasy treats submissions from graduates of the Clarion writing courses differently, but only because she taught there.
Membership in a pro org like SFWA or HWA might get you interaction with an editor you might not otherwise have. And taking advantage of message boards or the articles in the members mag for SFWA to learn more about markets, contracts, and professional behavior will help you make your submissions and professional interaction more attractive. But the membership itself likely won't get you special treatment like faster responses on submissions.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder
Thank you Mr. Lowder. As always, you have proven very helpful. It's exactly this sort of practical information that I need. Your experience as both an author and an editor have again helped me out.
Note to those thinking, "What's he talking about?": Mr. Lowder was kind enough several weeks ago to offer some excellent advise to me about short story writing and, obviously, something worked. So thank you again Mr. Lowder.
Sorry to have hijacked the thread slightly.
-Mother/Ed
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| JamesLowder |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 15:10:54
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Jim, I asked the SFWA Grievance Committee for help rather recently. Maybe it's gotten more effective than it was back when you belonged to the organization. Of course, it's also entirely possible that I just got lucky.
The SFWA GriefCom has helped some people, to be sure, but it was not reliable from what I've seen. I would never count on them, especially if your problem is with a game-related publisher, since the general sneering attitude about w-f-h (work-for-hire) and game publishers makes it unlikely the membership will support blowing funds to "better" a part of the market they see as beyond redemption. With the Dragon CD ROM mess, they clearly screwed some people over and made things actively worse for writers, enough so that at least a couple quit the org. for that specific reason.
As always, Richard, your mileage may vary. Glad they proved useful for you.
Cheers,
Jim |
| JamesLowder |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 15:05:03
quote:
Originally posted by dbassingthwaite
Bias against game fiction, however, isn't just a SFWA thing - although I suspect I'm preaching to the choir on that point.
Oh, it's certainly a common prejudice in the industry. It's right out on the surface with SFWA, though. I believe people have run for officer spots in SFWA with shared world fiction bashing as part of their platform.
I'm certain the bias exists in HWA, with some people, but it's not systemic. This year's Stoker final ballot is a clear indication of that. One of the short fiction finalists is from The Book of Final Flesh, which I edited for Eden Studios. There's an actual RPG product up in the Other Forms catagory, and an RPG-related comic book story in the Illustrated Narrative category.
Cheers,
Jim |
| JamesLowder |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 14:57:26
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Congrats on the sale, mother1219! I'm honored to have played a teeny-tiny part in your going pro.
It's often said that editors are more likely to read a submission marked Member, SFWA (or whatever) in a timely manner, or to respond positively to such a query letter, but I don't know from first-hand experience that it's true. Maybe Jim, who's an editor his own self, will tell us if it influences his reaction.
Pro org membership has never really influenced my opinion as an editor, and I don't know of any editors who weight it significantly. (I used to know one editor for a gaming fiction publisher who actually counted it as a minor strike against a writer.) Shawna McCarthy at Realms of Fantasy treats submissions from graduates of the Clarion writing courses differently, but only because she taught there.
Membership in a pro org like SFWA or HWA might get you interaction with an editor you might not otherwise have. And taking advantage of message boards or the articles in the members mag for SFWA to learn more about markets, contracts, and professional behavior will help you make your submissions and professional interaction more attractive. But the membership itself likely won't get you special treatment like faster responses on submissions.
Cheers,
Jim Lowder |
| Grimbones |
Posted - 02 Apr 2004 : 14:46:26
quote:
Living in Canada works pretty well.
That's the last straw. I'm moving. ;)
Panel of Esteemed Authors: Thank you for the replies. I tried to hunt down my own dental insurance a month ago, but I had hopes that I was missing “the best kept secret” in the industry.
I understand that with different insurance laws in every state, quality coverage of a geographically diverse group is a complicated undertaking, but you’d think that we could do better for our nation’s most valuable resource. ;)
I mean, c’mon, isn’t America the last first world nation without universal healthcare?
I retrospect, I realize that I should have posed my question this way:
Where do freelance writers go to wine and dine rich patrons in order to get on their insurance plans? |
| ElaineCunningham |
Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 23:29:41
Lack of benefits -- health insurance, pension plans, and so on -- is one of the down sides of a freelancer's life. Unless you hold down a "real job" with benefits, or have a partner with one, you're on your own. Careful financial planning is very important to people whose paychecks come every three months -- if we're lucky.
As RLC said, you can purchase private health insurance. You can also get (slightly) discounted group rates through some writers' groups. Here's an excerpt from the HWA website:
In Times of Trouble
There are times when writers must pull together to solve mutual problems or come to each other's aid. HWA can be a friend to turn to when things get rough. Here's how we can help.
LIFE, HEALTH, AND LIABILITY INSURANCE
HWA members are automatically eligible for life, health, and media liability insurance policies offered through the Council of Writers' Organizations, to which we belong.
DISCOUNT ON PRE-PAID LEGAL SERVICES
Also offered through our membership in the Council of Writers' Organizations, this benefit provides comprehensive legal services for a low monthly fee. This nationwide program is to attorneys' fees what major medical coverage is to hospital and doctors' bills.
HWA GRIEVANCE COMMITTEE
For the mediation or settlement of complaints arising from generalized unfair or unethical behavior on the part of individuals or organizations with whom HWA members regularly do business.
HARDSHIP LOANS
The writing life can be difficult. Established HWA members experiencing financial distress are eligible to apply for small safety net loans under this program |
| Murray Leeder |
Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 22:46:10
quote:
Originally posted by Grimbones
3 of 11, reporting for duty, sir.
Another question for the panel: where does a freelance writer go for health and dental insurance?
Living in Canada works pretty well. |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 01 Apr 2004 : 22:04:28
Grimbones: For medical insurance, I go to company that sells to private individuals and pay what feels like a lot for so-so coverage. For dental insurance, I brush and floss regularly and hope for the best.
Sorry I can't steer you to a source for good coverage at good rates. If you find one, let me know, okay? |
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