| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Caolin |
Posted - 14 Aug 2011 : 19:50:15
Let's discuss the events in the novel.
I want to clear up some of the revelations at the end of the novel. Please fill in any blanks or corrections for things I might have missed or gotten wrong.
So Larloch started a cabal to make these Blue Flame Ghost items. He did so from what I can tell is for two reasons. One, he wanted some amusement. Two, he foresaw the coming Spellplague and so he conceived a way in which he could survive it or come back from it. Mystra and Azuth allowed him to proceed because they had foreseen the same thing and also saw it as a way to maintain some semblance of the Weave. To make these items he sacrificed 3 of his most powerful liches and infused their energies into the items.
So now, these Blue Flame Ghost items are to be used to fight the Primordials and drive them from the Realms and seal any breaches they created. It also seems like they can be used to bring back Mystra to full godhood again, or Azuth, or they can bring back Larloch.
So let's discuss what this all means. I'm curious to hear what everyone else things and where this might be going. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| mnb128 |
Posted - 09 Jun 2023 : 17:14:57
Resurrecting an old thread here as I just got around to reading this series.
In chapter 28 of BED, after Marlin Stormserpent is killed, 'A lone person came in, hooded and cowled, and made straight for the dead noble.' This person carried Stormserpent off into the forest and was never spoken of again in the book, nor later in Enraged. Does anyone have any theories as to who this mysterious person was? As he walked he sang, 'But she had eyes, those nightdark eyes, only for meee... For I walk a lonely road, a hidden road, a bright road, yes I walk a...'
I'm sure there are several hints in there, but my lore knowledge is lacking. Would love to hear any theories from the loremasters here at Candlekeep.
Thanks! |
| Caolin |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 05:25:59
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Having talked to Ed, I can say that Caolin's initial conclusions and summary is accurate.
 |
| Dennis |
Posted - 06 Mar 2012 : 03:29:30
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I could do with seeing Mask and Shar both as intermediate powers after Paul's new trilogy, but that's my opinion/preference.
I'd like to take back what I said above Shar in my post above. I don't see her being de-powered too soon, or at least not permanently. Mystra is meant to have an eternal rival, and Shar gives her that.
Where is it written that she must have an eternal rival?
And why can't that rival be Cyric, instead of Shar, who should be busy with her rivalry with Selūne?
IMO, of course. It's just that all gods seem to have rivals.
Cyric? No, he's not a rival of only one deity. He's everyone's enemy! Okay, except Shar. But knowing her, I'm nearly sure she must be plotting to someday kill him herself...when he outlives his usefulness to her. And by that time, all deities, including Selune and Mystra, would most likely thank her for it. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Mar 2012 : 03:04:13
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I could do with seeing Mask and Shar both as intermediate powers after Paul's new trilogy, but that's my opinion/preference.
I'd like to take back what I said above Shar in my post above. I don't see her being de-powered too soon, or at least not permanently. Mystra is meant to have an eternal rival, and Shar gives her that.
Where is it written that she must have an eternal rival?
And why can't that rival be Cyric, instead of Shar, who should be busy with her rivalry with Selūne? |
| Dennis |
Posted - 04 Mar 2012 : 18:05:25
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I could do with seeing Mask and Shar both as intermediate powers after Paul's new trilogy, but that's my opinion/preference.
I'd like to take back what I said above Shar in my post above. I don't see her being de-powered too soon, or at least not permanently. Mystra is meant to have an eternal rival, and Shar gives her that. |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 04 Mar 2012 : 17:46:44
The problem with all of this speculation (aside from the obvious one of it being colored by personal preferences; see the wording Dennis used about Mask, above) is that mortals in Faerūn, and we fans reading the books, know too little about the deities and matters divine to do more than wild, unsupported speculation.
We THINK we understand things, or know quite a bit, but time and again, what we "know" (because novels hinted or said things and rulebooks ditto) turns out to be wrong. Or as Ed keeps pointing out: even the gods lie, and their priests do so constantly (if often unwittingly, passing on in good faith what they were told or shown by deities).
Having talked to Ed, I can say that Caolin's initial conclusions and summary is accurate. Of course, a lot of what scribes have posted since then is . . . probably less than accurate. Fun, and much can come of speculation, but we should all keep in mind that it IS speculation.
love,
THO |
| Dennis |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 04:15:07
It's likely that Shar would be forced to step down a level or two. Lloth (as a certain soon-to-be-released novel indicates) would be aiming to grab the Weave and its shadow twin from Mystra's and Shar's control. This cat-fight can only lead to two things: either Shar gets kicked in the arse and becomes a lesser deity, or Lloth. Mystra is going to stay relatively unscathed for awhile, because her next scheduled reboot is not until the 8th edition. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 17 Feb 2012 : 04:04:39
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I dunno. To me, it sounds too much of a stretch. I'm not particularly fond of Mask. And if you ask me, he's rather to empowered for a lesser deity, and far too cunning that he deserves a little bit of de-powering. How many lesser gods have stepped a rung or two and became greater deities? Must we add some more?
Actually, I'm kinda hoping that we get Shar knocked down a peg by this; I could do with seeing Mask and Shar both as intermediate powers after Paul's new trilogy, but that's my opinion/preference. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 02:22:05
I dunno. To me, it sounds too much of a stretch. I'm not particularly fond of Mask. And if you ask me, he's rather to empowered for a lesser deity, and far too cunning that he deserves a little bit of de-powering. How many lesser gods have stepped a rung or two and became greater deities? Must we add some more? |
| Jakk |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 01:16:09
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I wonder how many other humans who should be dead will conveniently have been turned immortal by relics will pop up!
Well, if they use that to bring the Halruaans back, I wouldn't mind at all.
Nothing to do with relics, but see my question to Paul S. Kemp... link here, about a third of the way down the page (my post, look for a spoiler tag (invisible text)). That would definitely bring the Halruaans back... |
| Jakk |
Posted - 11 Feb 2012 : 01:14:57
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That's why I strongly believe that in most cases, only the creator of the character should have the final say to the fate of the character. He/she created the character in the first place, and therefore must have had all the knowledge about his/her creation and must have the right to write about its death. In Halaster's case, it's obviously Ed.
I agree... and the fact that there were new NDAs put in place on Halaster after Expedition to Undermountain and the GHotR were published leads me to believe that we will be hearing more about Halaster... I just hope it happens sooner rather than later.  |
| Dennis |
Posted - 04 Feb 2012 : 00:27:09
That's why I strongly believe that in most cases, only the creator of the character should have the final say to the fate of the character. He/she created the character in the first place, and therefore must have had all the knowledge about his/her creation and must have the right to write about its death. In Halaster's case, it's obviously Ed. |
| Merrith |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 05:10:16
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Chosen or not, everyone wants Halaster back. Why must he die in the first place?
I could even live with him being dead for good if there is more to the story. Just a random "attempted a ritual and it killed him" seems a little far-fetched for an archwizard of his ability and longevity.
There has to be more to it. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 01:27:07
Chosen or not, everyone wants Halaster back. Why must he die in the first place? |
| Jakk |
Posted - 03 Feb 2012 : 01:04:27
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Anyway, I just hope that when Larloch finally gets a considerable amount of screen time, he wouldn't be depicted as a drooling bony dog. I understand that most powerful beings were severely affected by the Spellplague. But even Szass Tam retained a shred of dignity after the SP. I think we've got enough of demented characters after the SP (El, The Simbul, etc). No need to add more. Here's to positive thinking...
I agree... but if you haven't seen my posts in Ed's scroll (and possibly elsewhere), Elminster's derangement makes perfect sense in the context of Halaster. I strongly suspect (and have been all-but-verbally assured of correctness in my suspicion by THO) that Halaster was a Chosen of Mystryl, who became the Mad Mage when his goddess died at the fall of Netheril. The same exchange also suggested that Larloch was a Chosen of Mystryl before his transformation to a lich. It may very well be true that Aumvor is in the same category as Larloch, and that Ioulaum was also a Chosen before becoming absorbed by the illithid Elder Brain. As for Halaster himself, hopefully we see his return as well... |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 16:45:56
quote:
Originally posted by Merrith
quote:
Originally posted by TyrantOr Manshoon is just crazy and Elminster is staying his hand due to a mandate from Mystra.
Actually I believe El's hand is stayed with regards to Manshoon by a pact he himself made with Rorst Amandon, a lord of Zhentil Keep who was poisoned by Manshoon. Essentially, Lord Amandon wanted Manshoon's rise to power and that of the Zhentarim held in check somewhat. Although El's confirming of the agreement at the end of the short story So High a Price in the Realms of Infamy book makes it clear he will keep true to the letter of the agreement while finding other creative ways around it.
His words were: "I shall keep my word in times to come. This I swear: neither Fzoul nor Manshoon shall die by my hand or spells...however much ill they work...my payment, as agreed, for the names you gave."
If I recall correctly further...the 'names' Elminster was giving was apparently a list of truenames for many important persons/creatures in the Realms. An old sourcebook (can't recall which) had a line or two referring to this list and agreement by stating the 3 phaerimm that were the secret controllers of a beholder city under/near Anauroch were on the list of truenames El gained from Lord Amandon for his promise not to personally be the instrument of Manshoon or Fzoul's demise in times to come.
Whew...long winded, just a bit of talk that jogged my memory as to that little tidbit I remembered reading YEARS ago. Obviously El had other instruments in mind to handle them from time to time, including Shandril I assume.
Yeah I should've remembered that short story. Though honestly at this point could anyone really fault El for destroying him? I was thinking that near the end of Bury Elminster Deep El or the Simbul says that Manshoon has some part to play and that Mystra desired this to happen. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 09:39:31
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
What does everyone think the Simbul's powerlevels are compared to pre-Spell Plague? Less/same/more?
I guess we'll have to wait until the next book to know for sure.
She's like a demi-god now. |
| Merrith |
Posted - 31 Jan 2012 : 04:56:45
quote:
Originally posted by TyrantOr Manshoon is just crazy and Elminster is staying his hand due to a mandate from Mystra.
Actually I believe El's hand is stayed with regards to Manshoon by a pact he himself made with Rorst Amandon, a lord of Zhentil Keep who was poisoned by Manshoon. Essentially, Lord Amandon wanted Manshoon's rise to power and that of the Zhentarim held in check somewhat. Although El's confirming of the agreement at the end of the short story So High a Price in the Realms of Infamy book makes it clear he will keep true to the letter of the agreement while finding other creative ways around it.
His words were: "I shall keep my word in times to come. This I swear: neither Fzoul nor Manshoon shall die by my hand or spells...however much ill they work...my payment, as agreed, for the names you gave."
If I recall correctly further...the 'names' Elminster was giving was apparently a list of truenames for many important persons/creatures in the Realms. An old sourcebook (can't recall which) had a line or two referring to this list and agreement by stating the 3 phaerimm that were the secret controllers of a beholder city under/near Anauroch were on the list of truenames El gained from Lord Amandon for his promise not to personally be the instrument of Manshoon or Fzoul's demise in times to come.
Whew...long winded, just a bit of talk that jogged my memory as to that little tidbit I remembered reading YEARS ago. Obviously El had other instruments in mind to handle them from time to time, including Shandril I assume. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 27 Jan 2012 : 14:02:17
What does everyone think the Simbul's powerlevels are compared to pre-Spell Plague? Less/same/more?
I guess we'll have to wait until the next book to know for sure. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Jan 2012 : 09:54:48
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I wonder how many other humans who should be dead will conveniently have been turned immortal by relics will pop up!
Well, if they use that to bring the Halruaans back, I wouldn't mind at all. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 27 Jan 2012 : 09:53:56
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
Or Manshoon is just crazy and Elminster is staying his hand due to a mandate from Mystra.
Agreed. While I usually favor complex and logical explanation, sometimes a simple one is more than enough. |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 21:56:18
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I wonder how many other humans who should be dead will conveniently have been turned immortal by relics will pop up!
I wouldn't be surprised if more people show up in other books. It happened in the Sembia books and that was before the time jump. I haven't read the book with Jack Ravenwild yet, but it has a sequel and it mentions that he has been magically imprisoned for 100 years. I think they can get away with doing it a few more times as long as they make it varied (some become actual immortals, some age a lot slower, some are trapped, some become undead, maybe a resurrection or two) and don't overuse it. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 20:32:20
I wonder how many other humans who should be dead will conveniently have been turned immortal by relics will pop up! |
| Tyrant |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 19:03:05
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I didn't really get the Epilogue...so Elmister is made whole by the Simbul (who is seemingly nearly demigod now; even more so than before) and then a few minutes later after the Simbul is conveniently called away on important tasks Manshoon goes against his "word" and destroys Elm's body again.
I guess what the poster above said, Elm knew he would have to put up with Manshoon's temper tantrum and expected it but would the Simbul not have foreseen it and stuck around? I don't know. I guess it did seem like Elminster knew how to get his body back "in a few months"? Have to wait until Elminster's Fury.
I like the good guys but got very tired of reading Manshoon's parts of the book. I just don't like the character and having him be the old-timey-moustache-twirling villain and read about his PoV the whole book wasn't great for me. I liked reading about Storm and Elminster and the good guys, tho! The new King and his court are interesting, and any appearances by Mirt, Alusair and Vangey are MORE than welcome to me (ghost or otherwise).
One question tho as I must have forgotten from EMD, how is Mirt still alive again? I know this was answered in EMD but I've forgotten it was so long ago. Thanks.
Mirt was in one of the blueflame relics. When they tried to summon the spirit out of it he popped out. If I am remembering correctly.
As for Manshoon, on one hand I think he is cracking. On the other hand, I think, based on one of his comments early on (I think in Elminster Must Die), that he is starting to get a taste of the price of immortality and on some level he knows that all that he built is gone and the only thing he has left is a desire for power and a hatred of Elminster and that might be driving the apparent crazy as some deeply buried part of him asks "what do you do once you achieve that goal?". His dialogue shows that even he knows Cormyr won't be enough to satisfy him. Elminster might be letting part of it play out so Manshoon can see how hollow his goals are once he thinks he's killed Elminster in the hopes that he could be swayed to be some type of ally.
Or Manshoon is just crazy and Elminster is staying his hand due to a mandate from Mystra. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 25 Jan 2012 : 14:28:54
I didn't really get the Epilogue...so Elmister is made whole by the Simbul (who is seemingly nearly demigod now; even more so than before) and then a few minutes later after the Simbul is conveniently called away on important tasks Manshoon goes against his "word" and destroys Elm's body again.
I guess what the poster above said, Elm knew he would have to put up with Manshoon's temper tantrum and expected it but would the Simbul not have foreseen it and stuck around? I don't know. I guess it did seem like Elminster knew how to get his body back "in a few months"? Have to wait until Elminster's Fury.
I like the good guys but got very tired of reading Manshoon's parts of the book. I just don't like the character and having him be the old-timey-moustache-twirling villain and read about his PoV the whole book wasn't great for me. I liked reading about Storm and Elminster and the good guys, tho! The new King and his court are interesting, and any appearances by Mirt, Alusair and Vangey are MORE than welcome to me (ghost or otherwise).
One question tho as I must have forgotten from EMD, how is Mirt still alive again? I know this was answered in EMD but I've forgotten it was so long ago. Thanks. |
| ROMVS |
Posted - 23 Jan 2012 : 08:20:00
I think Glathra is there to provide a foil or a reality check so to speak. She points out people's obvious doubts and acts like how a normal person who wants to hold on to power after she gets a little would do.
I'm trying to find the book after BED on Amazon so I can pre-order and I'm actually re-reading EMD and even Elminster's Daughter to get better picture of all that is going on. I can't wait to unravel all the mysteries that I'm sure they didn't just leave out but are just waiting to unfold.
I must have read most of the FR books, the only ones I haven't read are some of the new ones and the Lolth revival series, I couldn't quiet get into it. |
| Kyrel |
Posted - 12 Dec 2011 : 17:51:38
Generally I've liked EMD and BED. With respects to the "Glathra" character, however, I have to say that I'm beginning to find her somewhat annoying. Reason being "how the hell did she attain a position of authority, if she doesn't know when to shut up and listen?" Also, I'm beginning to get the impression that she's borderlining being incompetent. And that feeling annoys me with regards to this character, because I really don't feel like she should be that. Sure, she may need to be outwitted by some of the main protagonists, but after reading BED, I can't currently remember any situations in the book, where I was left with the feeling that this was a competent character. |
| Spencer |
Posted - 11 Dec 2011 : 15:56:29
This book is a masterpiece. The characters in particular are extremely well written and fleshed out - I genuinely care about them. It reads at a break-neck speed, but it doesn't get tiring or dull. |
| Shadowaxe |
Posted - 02 Oct 2011 : 17:17:08
He was suddenly tearful, lost in a joy he knew was silly yet meant so much. Nobles of Cormyr grow up knowing they can trust no one in the world, and that those who trust others are fools or dupes to be used.
Now, at last, he knew knew there was one person he could trust.
Four, lad. There are four, not one, El murmured, holding him in Amarunes embrace. Storm, thy mother, Rune, and Elminster Aumar...
Like all of BED Graceful, heartfelt, immense, tremendous.
Ed, my thanks.
|
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 29 Sep 2011 : 00:39:00
Atian, those chapterhead lore-quotes were published on the WotC website for both EMD and BED, left out of the hardcover editions of both . . . and put into the mass market paperback edition of EMD; I strongly suspect they'll appear in the mass market pbk of BED.
love,
THO
P.S. Merrith, right on! Ed and I both dislike fantasy books where novices on a quest unerringly find their way across a continent to where they have to get, and various characters "just happen" to show up at the right place and time to intercept foes or join allies. Life is full of wandering around and making mistakes and rushing around.
Thente, the movement in BED is nothing like any Realms session I've ever played in (or Ed has DM'd) - - and how El and Storm can (and can't) use magic, and how it's changing, is fully explained (here and there, during the story) in EMD and BED: it's NOT like 4th edition game rules, for either of them. |
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