| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Slaygrim |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 15:43:22
I was drawn to Forgotton Realms when I borrowed Exile from a friend who picked the book up but didn't have time to read it. I was around 14 at the time. Since then I made it a mission to read all Drizzt books. I remember the first time I went to the book store on the day of a new release was for Starless Night. Throughout the next decade or so I continued to pursue Drizzt books going so far as to beg the Barnes & Noble employees to give me the book from the stock room a couple of days before it was due to be released. I couldn't wait!
But eventually I grew up. It's been a few years since I have been excited about RAS books. I think the decline started happening after I began reading other RAS Novels. I remember deciding to look for more RAS books after rereading each of my Drizzt books at least 4 times. I started with the Spearwielders Trilogy and the 3 Luthien Bedwyr books. I think they spelled the beginning of the end of my fascination with RAS books.
It's difficult to explain my complaints but one problem is that it all seems the same. In every tale there are the same types of personalities. One is that the heroine is always so "perfect". She is always the rock of logic and sensibility in the group, the moral standard, the advisor, the epitomy of selflessness, etc. It was there with Cattie-brie and it was there with Pony, but I didn't really notice this obsession with the annoyingly perfect heroine until I ready about Gary's girlfriend in the Spearwielder Trilogy and then again with the heroine partner to Luthien. This trend continues in all RAS novels.
As I explored other authors and other books I found characters much more realistic and identifiable. For instance Joe Abercrombie presents an assortment of different types of heroines. From lonely and drunken, yet witty and alluring Ardee to the love-to-hate and complicated Monza Murcatto who's relentless pursuit for vengence allows her to leave even innocent bystanders dead in her wake. I could never imagine such weakness and moral deficiencies from the likes of Pony, Cat, etc yet in my life-despite knowing some great women-I have NEVER known anyone to more closely resemble RAS's heroines... but I have known a few Ardee's.
The there is the repetive introduction of the "I strive to be perfect" ranger-like warrior hero. With Drizzt it was one guy, but then it was everyone. Elbryan, Luthien, Gary, etc, etc, etc. Even Entreri is now granting would-be-victims a second chance on occassion!
It's hard to explain but the RAS books IMO are more suited to me as a teenager, as a youth. Salvatore to me seems more like George Lucas's direction with Star Wars when he began catering to children by bringing in the Ewoks and child stars.
War is hell, battle is hell, lives are lost, evil is rampant. With RAS people die, but I don't get that sense of hell. The good guys face threats that they always overcome, surface deep moral dilemnas that do little-if anything-to affect character growth, etc.
It's closing on a year now since The Ghost King was released and I haven't bought it. Instead I find myself reading "Best Served Cold" and looking forward to reading George R.R. Martin's books. I want to see real adversity, no clear cut "Good vs. Evil" lines (because there are few such realities), no angel-like heroines always in to offer the true moral perspective and logical answers, no "I just want to do the most goodly thing at all times" heroes, etc.
I want to see reality. The soldier stuck in a war he isn't sure is justified, slaughtering the opposition without remorse because it is the way of the world and because he is following orders. The leaders on the "righteous side" being more concerned about their pocket book and the strength of their station than charging into a justified battle risking themselves when there are commoners doing it for him.
I'm not really seeking something dark, but something realistic. I guess these days I've outgrown RAS because his lines of good and evil are so clearly drawn. The bad guys are just bad and they do bad things. The good guys are really really champions to the cause of goodness and they strive to be good and will stand in the face of evil to the end! Where is the guy who fights the fight but causes just as much destruction as he spares? Where is the hero's on both sides of the battle? Where are the sensless victims war produces in excess?
I've just concluded that RAS novels are great for when I came from a more naive age... when my world really was divided by clear right and wrongs. I've grown up into a world that is very complex and find that RAS books no longer reflect my reality as I no longer reflect the naivity of my youth.
/vent
Mod Edit: Shifted to a more appropriate shelf. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 17 Jan 2011 : 12:12:36
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
I don't recall any flying, but the rest is fact. It's a little silver unicorn pendant.
So its a magical steed he can ride and kick some ass with while Gwens away?
And good news were down to two diary entry's....were almost where we need to be! |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 17 Jan 2011 : 05:58:25
I don't recall any flying, but the rest is fact. It's a little silver unicorn pendant. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 17 Jan 2011 : 02:31:32
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
quote:
Originally posted by Elfinblade
I actually enjoyed Gauntlgrym. It might be because it's centered around Bruenor, and is basically a Bruenor book, not a Drizzt book.
Yup, that would be the last third of the book I was talking about. Jarlaxle and Bruenor for the win! 
Possible Gauntylgrym Spoiler.
I have been told that Drizzt now has a flying unicorn figurine comparable to Gwen? Is that fact or fiction? |
| strafer |
Posted - 17 Jan 2011 : 02:14:24
I started off reading RAS too but I can never go back to reading his works after reading the Cale Trilogy. He just didn't have a sense of urgency with his characters because they've just overcome the impossible way to me times to be somewhat realistic. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 05 Jan 2011 : 23:32:39
Drizzt has changed a bit, in a way that I think makes perfect sense, given what he went through in the last mini-series.
There are only 2 Drizzt Diaries in this one, for those who bemoan his bemoaning!
But I've never really tired of the character. Some of the stories/conflicts have seemed tiresome, but not the character. |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 23:11:11
quote:
Originally posted by Elfinblade
I actually enjoyed Gauntlgrym. It might be because it's centered around Bruenor, and is basically a Bruenor book, not a Drizzt book.
Yup, that would be the last third of the book I was talking about. Jarlaxle and Bruenor for the win!
|
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 21:38:14
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
I'm still thinking of Drizzt as a lost cause, but where my gripes with him were along the more abstract "he bores me to tears and progresses at a galacial pace" sort of thing, I found that it shifted to a more structure centered "Who wants to read about passive characters who aren't moving the plot of the book at all? Not me!"
I can recommend the last third or so of the book. The rest I want to take a red pen to.
Makes me feel ok about the fact that it is still languishing in my wish list and remains unpurchased, and in fact I have not thougt about this novel in ages ......something not too long ago would have seemed impossible. |
| Elfinblade |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 21:34:58
I actually enjoyed Gauntlgrym. It might be because it's centered around Bruenor, and is basically a Bruenor book, not a Drizzt book. Drizzt was awesome to read about when i was 15. 15 years later, it's not really that fetching anymore. He has his moments though, and i am intrigued about the sequels. A fresh start indeed. Time will tell. |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 03 Jan 2011 : 21:06:59
I'm still thinking of Drizzt as a lost cause, but where my gripes with him were along the more abstract "he bores me to tears and progresses at a galacial pace" sort of thing, I found that it shifted to a more structure centered "Who wants to read about passive characters who aren't moving the plot of the book at all? Not me!"
I can recommend the last third or so of the book. The rest I want to take a red pen to. |
| swifty |
Posted - 31 Dec 2010 : 19:54:45
drizzt is the john cena of toril. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 31 Dec 2010 : 08:51:55
Gauntlgrym
(location) = awesome
(book) = pretty good overall
(characters, excluding Drizzt) = not bad
(Drizzt) = okay but boring (he's manned up a lot and is no longer a tormented little emo, but he is still superheroically ginsu-invincible and dominates all the fighting ... entirely expected, yet still boring)
FWIW, I'm not a Drizzt-hater: I actually used to like him quite a lot. But after so many books and so many years I'm just completely bored of him, and his whole renegade-exile drow wanderer concept, and drow/lolth/spiders/underdark in general. This must be a taste of the interminably unchanging longevity which turns elves into such jaded and aloof cynics (the world keeps changing, Drizzt Do'esnot). |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 31 Dec 2010 : 06:56:09
So I'm wondering what are people thinking about Drizzt now that Gauntlegrym is out? Has he become truly interesting again, more dull, or is the jury still out? Thoughts? I've not yet read it, as my library won't get it for another six months (it's a consortium and it's a tiny-a$$ town) so try not to add any HUGE spoilers. |
| Ananta |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 01:46:56
quote:
Originally posted by Slaygrim
I find myself rolling my eyes at how often each character says something to another character and ends with "good dwarf." "good elf". "It wasn't me that brought them here good elf". It's SO TRIVIAL and I am actually annoyed at myself for being annoyed but it bothers me... Gah! Why am I being like this?
Haha, that's true. Often, with several books, not just with Salvatores, it bothers me how the group of friends refer to each other. It's as if they were in a business meeting: "Why hello there Mr. Do'Urden. How do you do?" "Oh I do just fine, dear old friend Bruenor". In my personal experience, friends tend to have nicknames for each other... 'cause aren't nicknames kinda like a sign of friendship? You don't call your best friend by name if her name if Catti-Brie x_x She's "cat" or something like that.
And you don't add their name after every thing you say. Scene: Bruenor and Drizzt deer hunting:
"We need to track this deer, Bruenor Battlehammer, king of Mithral Hall."
"Indeed we do, Drizzt Do'Urden."
"How do you suppose we go about that, Bruenor Battlehammer, king of Mithral Hall."
"Oh I think we should follow in its footsteps, Dark Elf, good friend, Drizzt Do'Urden"
YOU JUST DONT DO THAT, GAWD ;__;
And there are only so many cliché near death experiences one can have before it gets old.
And despite this, I've read all of RAS's books many times. And I can see myself reading them many times more. I loved The Cleric Quintet, read it few days ago, again. Waiting for Silent Blade to be available again at the local library, so I can read that, and with it rest of the series that are pending in my bookshelf, again.
I also read Ed Greenwood's Elminster-saga. I found the books a bit too "hastily" written. A lot of things were confusing and required some serious googling before I had any idea what was going on. One of these things was the dates. When something happens "in the year of Much Ale " and then skips to "Year of The Chosen", I really had no idea what years they were. And the fact that I read the books in Finnish didn't make identifying the years any easier, because I had to translate them myself back into English, just to find out what they were. And mind you, that's not as easy as one would think when you have to figure out what the "Paljon Oluen Vuosi" that directly translaters to "A lot of beer year", (later I found out it was actually "Year of Much Ale").
Anyhow, I've read quite a lot of the books, and I like Elaine Cunningham's and R.A. Salvatore's books the most, as cliché as they sometimes seem to be. xD |
| Slaygrim |
Posted - 23 Aug 2010 : 16:44:03
More:
Q. One thing that is hard to miss about your characters is that many of them, while protagonists in your novel, could very well be antagonists in another’s novel. Did you intentionally set out to create such wonderfully dark, twisted, but ultimately likable characters? Or was it just the result of your own… erm, deficiencies as a human being?
JOE: One thing that I’d often found disappointing in the fantasy that I’d read as a kid was the very black and white nature of the morality in the stories. Heroes were smooth of limb, sharp of eye, and irrevocably committed to righteousness and self-sacrifice. Villains were evil for the sake of it, and usually featured some kind of physical disfigurement/speech impediment/horns, pointy tail or flames for eyes that marked their villainy out for all to see.
I’ve always found the morally complex, conflicted characters a great deal more interesting than the straight-up heroes. You can keep Aragorn and Gandalf. I’d rather have a pint with Boromir and Saruman any day. Though, thinking about it, Saruman’s probably more of a single malt sort of guy.
I wanted my characters to reflect my experience of the real world, in which everyone is capable of being heroic or disgusting, depending on the circumstances and your point of view. No-one really thinks they’re the villain, right? We all have our reasons, our explanations, our excuses. So as my three central characters I went for three men who, as you say, could easily be the villains of a classic fantasy tale – a crippled torturer, a sneering, whining, spineless nobleman, and a barbarian psychopath – and tried to really get inside their heads, understand what their motivations might be, give them some kind of humanity. Above all I wanted characters that were capable of really surprising the reader – with glimpses of compassion, of humour, of stupidity, of violence. I suppose they’re both the heroes and the villains of this particular story.
And my deficiencies as a human being? How dare you imply that I have any?
|
| Slaygrim |
Posted - 23 Aug 2010 : 16:25:16
quote:
Originally posted by Silverblade The Enchanter
I only find the way mr Salvtore focuses on swordplay, not magic, a bit annoying, as I have a REAL big peeve about the "dumbing down" of soceity: smart characters are nealry always bad ones; folk of faithth fantasy or RL are always portrayed as having hidden agendas, deviants, zealots etc.
RAS's swordplay descriptions are masterful. His wizardly battles consist of "fireball, fireball, FIREBALL!" Very unimaginative.
I think Joe Abercrombie summed up how I have come to feel about the fantasy genre lately:
Q: What was the spark that generated the idea which drove you to write THE BLADE ITSELF and THE FIRST LAW series in the first place?
Joe: No one thing, really. It’s a reaction to some of the things I didn’t like in a lot of the epic fantasy I read as a kid – cardboard characters, clearly defined heroes and villains with no shades of grey between, a fixation with worldbuilding over storytelling. Not that there isn’t some great fantasy out there. I just thought there was room for some more . . .
Q: The narrative of THE BLADE ITSELF is extremely humorous in tone, somewhat of a throwback to David Eddings' heydays. Was this something you consciously set out to do, perhaps to differenciate yourself from all those dark and gritty fantasy epics?
Joe: I certainly think that fantasy often falls into two types – immensely serious or slapstick. Real life is neither one, and I didn’t want my books to be either. I didn’t make a big effort to make it amusing – I’m not sure that you can. I just tried to amuse myself as much as possible. Some people have found it funny, others not so much. But I feel strongly that something can be humorous and still be dark, often at the same time. After all (said the author with the highest pomposity) you cannot have shadow without light . . .
Q: With Scott Lynch and yourself, Gollancz unleashed two authors who seemingly aim to write "fun" novels. With the emergence of writers like you guys and others such as Naomi Novik, do you believe that the fantasy genre needed this refreshing outlook that was so important during the 80s?
Joe: As I’ve said, I think that epic fantasy can sometimes take itself way too seriously. For me a book should first of all be entertaining, carry the reader along. But fun doesn’t have to mean childish, or disposable. If you can make some serious points along the way, that’s all to the good.
|
| Hooch9 |
Posted - 19 Aug 2010 : 07:05:17
Even though I kind of like the Dark Elf Trilogy, I think my next Salvatore book will be The Cleric Quintet. I like Drizzt and all, but I want to read other books from Salvatore. It gets a little boring to read nothing but the same character. Just a break in between the series for me. Oh, that and the Harpers books. |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 23:38:06
Wizard bad guys are not exempt from reading the evil overlord's handbook. Most of the villains in RAS's books must have slept through that part of the training... then they get recycled in the novels. It gets dull.:/ |
| Silverblade The Enchanter |
Posted - 17 Aug 2010 : 23:14:41
Some times, fun is just fun, and it' snot wise to peer too deeply into it for meaning ;)
The Drizzt sries has chanegd over the years last ones were quite dark and influenced by real world stuff.
Look at Wulfgar's torture, that's REALLY dark: repeatedly seduced, bred and his own children devoured before his eyes. Yeech! *shudders*
I only find the way mr Salvtore focuses on swordplay, not magic, a bit annoying, as I have a REAL big peeve about the "dumbing down" of soceity: smart characters are nealry always bad ones; folk of faithth fantasy or RL are always portrayed as having hidden agendas, deviants, zealots etc.
Hey the majority of psycho leaders in RL have been "fighter types", you know ;)
then again you could argue that casters in prior editions of D&D were grossly over powered at high level and could usurp any scene in a book, hm
but yet again...they were often written up very VERY badly at least in tactics. I think the only "smart" wizard in Salvatore's books that I can think off hand, smart enough to scare you rather than being predicatable castign a few weak sacue or poorly thought out spells, was probably the "battle mage" who came after Entreri, and maybe Robillard
though I did adore Arklem Greeth's "staff of MEGA boobytrapness" haha!! ;) |
| jornan |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 03:43:19
I too expect Drizzt to pretty much stay with similar characters and simlar places, but what I WANT to see is for him to explore something new. How would he handle travelling through Thay or what kind of reception would he receive in Cormyr and how would he react to it. He needs to travel new ground, develop new relationships and become fres hand interesting himself again. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 31 Jul 2010 : 18:02:59
If RAS features his characters interacting with another author's characters/locations/monsters, fans inevitably say that he didn't do it right.
If he avoids mingling his guys with their guys, fans say that he's not doing the Realms right because it would be inevitable that they would meet at some point.
Sounds like an impossible task, to me. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 30 Jul 2010 : 21:35:01
Weaker? Perhaps. Or it could just be that the characters are simply not as fresh as they once felt. I do like some of the directions they have gone, but there are other things I feel have been done to ad nauseum. Drizzt has grown a bit, but mostly into a more broody type of hero, a la Angel from the old Buffy series. then again, he has that whole Angelus thing going with his "Hunter" side, too.... Maybe RAS is finally getting bored with him? One thing I have liked is the introduction of some new and more unusal characters like Athrogate. Then there is Jarlaxle's on-again, off-again attempts to pal around with D and co. As if he feels a bit of guilt for not being there to help with the little problem with D's father, maybe? He almost seems to be like a mentor now, sort of a drow fairy godfather thing. Could become interesting. |
| Slaygrim |
Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 16:39:03
I suppose that the reason I keep talking about this is because it bothers me that "I've lost that lovin' feelin" for these characters. I mean... I still like them but the magic is gone, and that troubles me. Someone hit me!
Maybe-for me-the story of the Companions of the Hall has run its course... and ran its course with The Legacy. Well... Starless Night was pretty cool as I loved the battle between Drizzt and Dantrag, as well as the the reunion with Belwar Dissengulp, but it started losing me with how Jarlaxle aided their escape (didn't make sense to me as the risk far exceeded the reward for the opportunist). So I suppose if I truly had to pinpoint where I feel the magic started to fade was around that point in the story. That... and I haven't been fond of Wulfgar since his "death" and I have never been fond of Catti-brie.
Here is what I hope to see from this point forward:
Drizzt with a whole new direction. A fresh start. This will require him to "move on" from Mithril Hall, which likely wouldn't happen unless Bruenor passed on. I hate to see Bruenor go but I wonder what he really has left with both Wulfgar and Cat gone... as well as Rumblebelly. At this point Bruenor seems like he would just be there for the sake of being there. Perhaps it is time to hear about his life, marriage to a Queen, and of their children taking over for Clan Battlehammer.
There is something very appealing to me about a completely new direction for Drizzt. A new location and setting, new friends, new enemies, etc. I would be VERY intrigued to see a whole new dynamic... and possibly a rival swordsman for a villain, the only "rehash" from the old storyline that I can stomache. It's not far fetched and it allows us to enjoy RAS's skillful duel narrative. Although this new rival could not be a Artie copy, he would need a deep storyline and distinct personality. Perhaps a character that isn't evil and possibly good... but with completely different goals that lead him into conflict with Drizzt. There are many possibilities... such as a character who believes he is doing the greater good at the cost of a lesser evil... but something that Drizzt stands in the way of because of the cost to innocents. Just one of my ideas...
I think it would be awesome to see Drizzt meet and fall for a drow woman... and not a saintly heroine like pretty much EVERY RAS heroine... but one who struggles to deal with the morality of a new world... one with a bit of drow viciousness still. One that causes Drizzt to inwardly struggle with acceptance that he has fallen for her and to openly struggle with her over her methods. She wouldn't have to be evil... but would do things like execute a helpless prisoner she had just disarmed and defeated in battle rather than tying them up and sending them off to authorities like goodly Drizzt would. It's not evil, it's ruthlessness. Also one who creates CHEMISTRY with Drizzt by ARGUING with him periodically. Reading about them struggling to get along when you know deep down they are falling for each other is WAY more interesting than two peas in a pod instantly falling into a perfect relationship. Relationships ARE work after all.
I guess an example of what I am talking about is a relationship more like Han Solo and Princess Leia rather than the lovey dovey strained chemistry we felt with Anakin and Padme'. Just like in the movies, despite their constant arguing and struggle for the upper hand over one another... Han and Leia really delivered their chemistry to the audience. Their relationship was believable. Anakin and Padme's relationship was not believeable at all unless you're 12. No chemistry. I do not think it was the actors, I think it was the script, the story, the writing.
Honestly, I felt that way about Drizzt/Cat too. Drizzt was saintly enough for the two of them and then throw in Miss Perfect there was just nothing of substance to write about other than them always being happy and smiling and doing the right thing, etc. I think a headstrong yet opposite character (not too opposite obviously... as Drizzt isn't going to fall for Quenthel Baenre) who challenges him and engages him would be a great story to read. I know this is nothing new but Liriel would be more along the lines of what I am talking about, although I know this is not a possibility. A character LIKE her. I think in order for Drizzt to fall for such a character it would likely take a drow female to engage his curiosity enough to draw him in. A member of his own race whom he feels is redeemable and worth exploring. This character might even change Drizzt some and bring him back to being a little less saintly. YES!
I would also like to see Drizzt with new companions who aren't quite so well aligned with him morally. When they are, it limits the drama and appeal of their relationships and interaction together.
Companion One: "Should we save them?"
Drizzt: "Of course. It's dangerous but it's the right thing."
Companion Two: "Let them fall. They do not deserve our help."
Drizzt: "We cannot let them be slaughtered! No matter what they've done!"
Companion Two: "Yes we can." *Walks away*
Later... Drizzt deals with regret (like always, he shoulders responsibility for everything) and engages in a bitter argument with his companions over whether or not they did the right thing.
FAR more interesting than:
Companion One: "Should we save them?"
Drizzt: "Of course. It's dangerous but it's the right thing."
Companion Two: "What are we waiting for? CHARGE!"
Later... The companions save the day and are invited in by those they rescued as heroes where they all sit around the table and high five each other for their good deed before continuing on with their noble quest.
I suppose as I have read more and more novels I've actually grown to enjoy reading about character interactions more than battle scenes. A good duel is always intriguing but great long battles tend to get boring for me and I started looking forward to character interaction. Character interaction ALWAYS sells better when there is conflict and drama rather than perfect cohesion.
Now that I outlined what I HOPE to see, here is what I expect to see:
Drizzt's "new" adventures will include settings already explored. Be it the North, Damara, Menzo, Icewind Dale, Luskan, the Snowflake Mountains, Calimport, etc. RAS has shown consistancy in staying within area's he has created and/or defined. In settings already explored by other authors and rich with history RAS has typically either avoided them or had expedited his heroes through that part of the story (Drizzt in Waterdeep for example). Bet your house that the setting will not be in deeply explored-yet always active-areas like Cormyr, the Dalelands, Waterdeep, etc.
As for his companions Drizzt will almost certainly be with characters already explored or their children (grandchildren or somewhere down the line). I am positive Jarlaxle will come into play as will Athrogate. Pikel and Ivan making appearences are likely, as well as a Bonaduce of some kind. While I do enjoy these characters at this point I feel they are more in the story (or a story made with the purpose to include them) just to be there as they are RAS and fan favorites. Companions will NOT be characters from other novels unless they are brief cameo's like Khelben in teh Halflings Gem. Sorry folks, no Liriel and Drizzt!
Villains also will likely be in the scope that they have been in the past. Drow, Orcs, Pirates, or some artifact. It is highly unlikely that the villains will be enemies already covered in depth from other authors despite their world-wide reach and goals. No Zhents, no Shades, no Malaugrym, etc.
A Disclaimer: I am not suggesting that some or all of these things SHOULD be in new Drizzt tales. Obviously having Manshoon as Drizzt's new foe isn't fitting, nor is having Drizzt hanging out with the Royal Family of Cormyr. I am simply stating what we will not see and what I suspect we will see.
I hope I don't come across as a sour puss or someone who knows better than RAS. HE created these characters and what he (or WotC) chooses to do is his right. This thread was to discuss my falling out with my former favorite author and characters and what would likely rekindle my interest. My opinion is just the opinion of a single faltering fan and means nothing more or less than your opinion. Just talking on a message board. :) |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 16:08:25
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
quote:
Originally posted by Slaygrim
I truly enjoyed Artemis Entreri in the Icewind Dale Trilogy and even in The Legacy. After his fall from the mountain side and his time in Menzoberranzan where he underwent character development... I've slowly witnessed him go from that scary bad arse assassin with unshakable confidence to a "weaker" anti-hero type. I want to go back to the glory days and I hope they aren't merely a figment of my younger imagination...
Seconded. The newer books (with a few exceptions) were just weaker, than the originals up to the Legacy series... and the Spine of the World.
Which in my opinion just re-enforces the fact that they were something wotc wanted him to write about, not something he pitched to them. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 09:47:15
quote:
Originally posted by Slaygrim
I truly enjoyed Artemis Entreri in the Icewind Dale Trilogy and even in The Legacy. After his fall from the mountain side and his time in Menzoberranzan where he underwent character development... I've slowly witnessed him go from that scary bad arse assassin with unshakable confidence to a "weaker" anti-hero type. I want to go back to the glory days and I hope they aren't merely a figment of my younger imagination...
Seconded. The newer books (with a few exceptions) were just weaker, than the originals up to the Legacy series... and the Spine of the World. |
| Slaygrim |
Posted - 19 Jul 2010 : 22:00:13
After a trip to the book store yesterday I picked up the paperback version of The Ghost King along with all four books from George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Fire and Ice" series that is so highly acclaimed.
I have started The Ghost King first. I have to say that already I am feeling the same level of distaste that I've been feeling lately. ARGH! It's like I desperately want to go back to where I was but I just can't settle into it anymore. I am reading about my old favorite characters that I've felt so drawn to for so long, Drizzt, Jarlaxle, Bruenor, etc... but I am just not getting it. I find myself rolling my eyes at how often each character says something to another character and ends with "good dwarf." "good elf". "It wasn't me that brought them here good elf". It's SO TRIVIAL and I am actually annoyed at myself for being annoyed but it bothers me... Gah! Why am I being like this?
I haven't reread the Icewind Dale Trilogy or the Dark Elf Trilogy in several years... I might do that again after I finish A Song of Fire and Ice... I just hope maybe it's the newer books and the old ones still hold some magic for me. I truly enjoyed Artemis Entreri in the Icewind Dale Trilogy and even in The Legacy. After his fall from the mountain side and his time in Menzoberranzan where he underwent character development... I've slowly witnessed him go from that scary bad arse assassin with unshakable confidence to a "weaker" anti-hero type. I want to go back to the glory days and I hope they aren't merely a figment of my younger imagination...
Will update with opinions when I finish. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 15 Jul 2010 : 19:07:23
quote:
Originally posted by mensch
Aballister also wears a neon sign saying: "Did I mention I'm an Evil Wizard?"
Strangely though, the Forgotten Realms Wiki lists Aballister as being Chaotic Neutral, but no source is provided for that bit of information.
Odd, since the Villain's Lorebook listed him as "Lawful evil" (VL, p7).
quote:
Originally posted by Slaygrim
I guess what I am getting at isn't that I expect "realism" as the sole pinnical of writing-I am reading fantasy after all-but I expect deep characters rich with identifiable personalities. For me RAS's characters became too cliche' over time.
Agreed. I've always balked when others have praised about supposedly gloriously "recurring motifs" in various authors' works. For me, I just call it unoriginal, repetitive, rehashed, boring, etc.
Then again, sometimes certain artists keep us coming back for more, even if we can see some merit in what critics have to say, ourselves.
quote:
I read an interview with RAS (using google to find them) where he stated he doesn't like to read the writings of others too much as it influences his writing. I don't quite understand this myself. Having influences isn't a bad thing-often it can be inspiring!-but allowing those influences to take away from your creativity would be bad. This should be within your control-at least it seems that way to me. Perhaps RAS should revisit this position? Reading the upper tier authors is what raises my expectations for the plot. Maybe it is just me...
I've also read where RAS says that part of the reason that he does not read a lot of others' work is because he thinks he has a bit of dyslexia, which slows him down.
So it's possible that he's giving us all that he's really capable of from his own mind/heart.
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Well to be fair to Bob, it's not that he did not want to Write about new characters at all, in fact I will quote an old post from Elaine Cunningham(from Feb 2006) where she discussed that a bit.....
"Bob Salvatore had planned to write a trilogy about the bladesinger Josidiah Starym, but when he discovered that the character introduced in a short story had been detailed in various game products, he realized the story was no longer his to tell."
So several factors have alignged that have kept Bob writing about this particular group.(not just sales figures)
Also recall that TSR initially told Bob to wrap up the Drizzt tales with The Halfling's Gem, but then they turned around to commission "The Dark Elf Trilogy", and then told him that that would be the end of all things Drizzt.
He successfully talked them into beginning a new series with "The Cleric Quintet", although he had originally wanted the star there to be a monk rather than a cleric.
Although that was obviously supposed to be a five-book deal, it didn't take long before he was pressured to once again pick up the Drizzt tale with "Legacy of the Drow". He was actually writing both of those series at the same time, for a few years!
And then he merged the two storylines together in Passage to Dawn. But I don't know if that was compelled upon him, or if he just wanted to do that on his own. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 20:45:52
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Sadly I must admit despite all my problems with his writing (more to do with FR then the man's talent), he is the one FR author whom I have read ALL of his novels.
I have to say, Drizzt has lost his 'luster' for me, quite some time ago, actually. And Artemis Entreri... *meh* ...what could have been Everis Cale was turned into a 'poor, little orphan' - the final book of Sellsswords was so disjointed and out-of-place it was like reading two different, incomplete novels.
His complete lack of ability to use anything anyone else has written (did he really go and have to create yet another 'lost city/civilization?) notwithstanding, the man has a lot of talent, and Drizzt is just a dead-horse that has been beaten way past death now.
If anyone really needed to go in the 'lost era' it was Super-Drizzt. He is the literary incarnation of every bad 'Chuck Norris joke' ever written. RAS should give up on all the characters he wrote in the past and start fresh - tell some new stories in the new age. The man's got a lot of talent - he shouldn't be carrying that dark-Elven Albatross around his neck.
I guess its pressure from his publishers - WoT and SoT are two other series where you just want the main hero to 'live happily ever after', or even die... just to put an end to their (and our) misery.
Well to be fair to Bob, it's not that he did not want to Write about new characters at all, in fact I will quote an old post from Elaine Cunningham(from Feb 2006) where she discussed that a bit.....
"Bob Salvatore had planned to write a trilogy about the bladesinger Josidiah Starym, but when he discovered that the character introduced in a short story had been detailed in various game products, he realized the story was no longer his to tell."
So several factors have alignged that have kept Bob writing about this particular group.(not just sales figures)
I understand the frustration with "not using what other people have written", but if you have a bit of a loose cannon (that seems to hit the target more than not), aren't you best served to "turn him loose" and have him create new things instead of riding roughshod over what others have already wrote about?
That's an unfair double standard for any author to live up to.
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| Slaygrim |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 19:56:00
quote:
Originally posted by mensch
I don't think the gripe the scroll starter has about the Salvatore novels is about the fact that it has heroes in it. But it's more about the type of heroes that are generally featured in those novels. Also, realism isn't mandatory or the holy grail to writing good stories. One can write about larger-than-life heroes without them being fairly one-dimensional, which is what heroes who always do The Right Thing generally are.
Thank you. You grasped my point much better than one could anticipate given my difficulty in conveying my thoughts online.
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| Slaygrim |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 19:51:31
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Drizzt did go through this in Exile, when his siblings came a-looking for him.
And I vaguely recall him resolving himself to the issue once and for all in The Legacy. With a drow raiding party having invaded Mithral Hall, Drizzt recognizes that his former reluctance to kill drow was just plain racism.
Oh I know, I wasn't suggesting I wanted to see this, I was using it as an example of his "skin deep" moral dilemmnas. If someone is trying to kill me or those I love I am not going to stop and worry about the fact that they are human when defending myself/friends. Just seemed weird...
I will say Drizzt has become less of a whiner in later books. He slowed down a bit on the "I shoulder guilt for every bad thing that happens that is out of my control" like he did over Le'lorinal and her tribe or the farmers in Sojourn. |
| Slaygrim |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 19:40:37
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Read Paul Kemp's Erevis Cale trilogy and Twilight war Trilogy if you want the moral ambiguities and gritty atmosphere where characters die.
LOVED this series. Best Realms books I've read since City of Ravens and Elfsong. |
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