| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Slaygrim
Learned Scribe
111 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 15:43:22
|
I was drawn to Forgotton Realms when I borrowed Exile from a friend who picked the book up but didn't have time to read it. I was around 14 at the time. Since then I made it a mission to read all Drizzt books. I remember the first time I went to the book store on the day of a new release was for Starless Night. Throughout the next decade or so I continued to pursue Drizzt books going so far as to beg the Barnes & Noble employees to give me the book from the stock room a couple of days before it was due to be released. I couldn't wait!
But eventually I grew up. It's been a few years since I have been excited about RAS books. I think the decline started happening after I began reading other RAS Novels. I remember deciding to look for more RAS books after rereading each of my Drizzt books at least 4 times. I started with the Spearwielders Trilogy and the 3 Luthien Bedwyr books. I think they spelled the beginning of the end of my fascination with RAS books.
It's difficult to explain my complaints but one problem is that it all seems the same. In every tale there are the same types of personalities. One is that the heroine is always so "perfect". She is always the rock of logic and sensibility in the group, the moral standard, the advisor, the epitomy of selflessness, etc. It was there with Cattie-brie and it was there with Pony, but I didn't really notice this obsession with the annoyingly perfect heroine until I ready about Gary's girlfriend in the Spearwielder Trilogy and then again with the heroine partner to Luthien. This trend continues in all RAS novels.
As I explored other authors and other books I found characters much more realistic and identifiable. For instance Joe Abercrombie presents an assortment of different types of heroines. From lonely and drunken, yet witty and alluring Ardee to the love-to-hate and complicated Monza Murcatto who's relentless pursuit for vengence allows her to leave even innocent bystanders dead in her wake. I could never imagine such weakness and moral deficiencies from the likes of Pony, Cat, etc yet in my life-despite knowing some great women-I have NEVER known anyone to more closely resemble RAS's heroines... but I have known a few Ardee's.
The there is the repetive introduction of the "I strive to be perfect" ranger-like warrior hero. With Drizzt it was one guy, but then it was everyone. Elbryan, Luthien, Gary, etc, etc, etc. Even Entreri is now granting would-be-victims a second chance on occassion!
It's hard to explain but the RAS books IMO are more suited to me as a teenager, as a youth. Salvatore to me seems more like George Lucas's direction with Star Wars when he began catering to children by bringing in the Ewoks and child stars.
War is hell, battle is hell, lives are lost, evil is rampant. With RAS people die, but I don't get that sense of hell. The good guys face threats that they always overcome, surface deep moral dilemnas that do little-if anything-to affect character growth, etc.
It's closing on a year now since The Ghost King was released and I haven't bought it. Instead I find myself reading "Best Served Cold" and looking forward to reading George R.R. Martin's books. I want to see real adversity, no clear cut "Good vs. Evil" lines (because there are few such realities), no angel-like heroines always in to offer the true moral perspective and logical answers, no "I just want to do the most goodly thing at all times" heroes, etc.
I want to see reality. The soldier stuck in a war he isn't sure is justified, slaughtering the opposition without remorse because it is the way of the world and because he is following orders. The leaders on the "righteous side" being more concerned about their pocket book and the strength of their station than charging into a justified battle risking themselves when there are commoners doing it for him.
I'm not really seeking something dark, but something realistic. I guess these days I've outgrown RAS because his lines of good and evil are so clearly drawn. The bad guys are just bad and they do bad things. The good guys are really really champions to the cause of goodness and they strive to be good and will stand in the face of evil to the end! Where is the guy who fights the fight but causes just as much destruction as he spares? Where is the hero's on both sides of the battle? Where are the sensless victims war produces in excess?
I've just concluded that RAS novels are great for when I came from a more naive age... when my world really was divided by clear right and wrongs. I've grown up into a world that is very complex and find that RAS books no longer reflect my reality as I no longer reflect the naivity of my youth.
/vent
Mod Edit: Shifted to a more appropriate shelf.
|
Watch my gorgeous wife sing at:
www.youtube.com/Airicx |
Edited by - The Sage on 25 Jun 2010 17:01:51
|
|
|
Slaygrim
Learned Scribe
111 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 16:25:26
|
| Thanks! I apologize in advance for my glaring grammatical errors. Apparantly proofreading isn't a strength of mine. :( |
Watch my gorgeous wife sing at:
www.youtube.com/Airicx |
 |
|
|
Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 16:58:15
|
I would suggest reading the last trilogy that came out. Alot of the main characters die.
That being said, I grew out of RAS after Icewind Dale. I read the Dark Elf trilogy first, then Icewind Dale trilogy. I tried reading Revenge of the drow or whatever the heck the next trilogy was.
|
I love PMs! Please send me a message. Even if its Hi. |
|
|
|
mensch
Seeker
80 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 17:25:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Slaygrim
It's closing on a year now since The Ghost King was released and I haven't bought it. Instead I find myself reading "Best Served Cold" and looking forward to reading George R.R. Martin's books. I want to see real adversity, no clear cut "Good vs. Evil" lines (because there are few such realities), no angel-like heroines always in to offer the true moral perspective and logical answers, no "I just want to do the most goodly thing at all times" heroes, etc.
I wonder if there are any Realms novels which approach the gritty atmosphere and moral ambiguities found in George R.R. Martin's books. It might just be that the Forgotten Realms didn't start out as a gritty, realistic world, but more as a very "high fantasy" universe where players are encouraged to become larger-than-life heroes.
I must confess I haven't read that many Realms novels (except Evermeet, the Avatar Trilogy and the Cleric Quintet), but most of the protagonists in the novels I read are very clearcut heroes, while the villains are very... eh... villainy.
SPOILERS
Take, for example, Kierkan Rufo from the Cleric Quintet. It's very clear from the start that Rufo will go down the path of evil, despite attempts to redeem himself. Aballister also wears a neon sign saying: "Did I mention I'm an Evil Wizard?"
Strangely though, the Forgotten Realms Wiki lists Aballister as being Chaotic Neutral, but no source is provided for that bit of information. |
Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice. From what I’ve tasted of desire I hold with those who favor fire. But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate to know that for destruction ice is also great and would suffice. – Robert Frost (1874 - 1963) |
Edited by - mensch on 25 Jun 2010 17:26:08 |
|
|
|
jornan
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 23:09:44
|
I too have grown up with RAS novels and I too have noticed some of the plot/character similarities. He was one of the first authors I ever read and I read everything I could get my hands on.
I too have also grown to love other authors and different styles of fantasy, such as gritty and ultra realistic George RR Martin...but RAS still kicks serious butt.
I'm not certain why people feel like they can only like "one" type of book. I don't watch Starwars movies for original stories or the great dialogue and acting, but they are still fun as hell to watch.
I like morally ambiguous characters as much as the next person, they are interesting and multifaceted and they have there place. But so do morally strong characters that do have a definate sense of right and wrong and a definate sense of purpose.
I try to judge these books for what they are rather than focus the judgement on what the are not.
jornan
PS
For some moral ambiguilty in FR check out:
Richard Lee Byers' Haunted Lands Trilogy or anything by Paul S Kemp.
|
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2010 : 23:30:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Slaygrim
I've just concluded that RAS novels are great for when I came from a more naive age... when my world really was divided by clear right and wrongs. I've grown up into a world that is very complex and find that RAS books no longer reflect my reality as I no longer reflect the naivity of my youth.
Yours is a common reaction from a lot of Realms readers. Many had this reaction their very first time, even.
I, myself, have regretted the lack of a darker, or more ambiguous, tone in many of the Drizzt stories. And I cringe every time we read about another villain who wears a "VILLAIN" sign on his forehead like a de-Merit Badge or something.
The last mini-series, "Transitions", improves on that situation a bit.
But I still like the Drizzt stories, on par, precisely because they offer a moralistic, escapist alternative to all the depressing relativism and vagueness of the real world. Drizzt is one guy we don't have to second-guess and un-ravel, unlike all of our Real Realms would-be heroes and authority figures.
When this world requires us to doubt our leaders, our idols, our co-workers, our neighbors, our family members, our religions, our sciences, our foods, our medicines, etc., it's a relief to find someone we can trust.
I don't call that being "naive". It's just a hunger for something different than this gray murkiness that we wade through every day of our real lives. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Slaygrim
Learned Scribe
111 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2010 : 15:49:11
|
I don't know... I think I want something surprising from RAS for once. How about the goodly hero standing in the pass blocking off a horde of orcs alone in hopes to buy the fleeing peasants time to escape... only at the last second seeing his approaching doom he loses his nerve and flees. Let's see HIS moral dilemna and how he deals with true shame and remorse. MUCH more interesting than the hero who stands and "dies" only to be actually captured and later freed. Or the moral dilemna facing Drizzt because he isn't certain he can kill a member of his own race despite them trying desperately to kill his friends.
The would-be hero who loses his nerve and flees is no villain, he's a real person. Even with all of the morals in the world he is still a person and people are imperfect. No way would ANY RAS Hero falter at that point. Just some realism and depth would be nice I guess... |
Watch my gorgeous wife sing at:
www.youtube.com/Airicx |
|
|
|
Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2010 : 01:14:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
When this world requires us to doubt our leaders, our idols, our co-workers, our neighbors, our family members, our religions, our sciences, our foods, our medicines, etc., it's a relief to find someone we can trust.
Wait... so we want to trust a fictional character who has lifetime subscriptions to Mommy and Daddy issues, as well as an inability to come to terms with his own species or loss? And let's not forget that he can repress himself so much that he has psychotic episodes now and again.
I think I prefer fairy godmothers.   |
|
|
|
Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2010 : 17:49:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by mensch
quote:
Originally posted by Slaygrim
It's closing on a year now since The Ghost King was released and I haven't bought it. Instead I find myself reading "Best Served Cold" and looking forward to reading George R.R. Martin's books. I want to see real adversity, no clear cut "Good vs. Evil" lines (because there are few such realities), no angel-like heroines always in to offer the true moral perspective and logical answers, no "I just want to do the most goodly thing at all times" heroes, etc.
I wonder if there are any Realms novels which approach the gritty atmosphere and moral ambiguities found in George R.R. Martin's books. It might just be that the Forgotten Realms didn't start out as a gritty, realistic world, but more as a very "high fantasy" universe where players are encouraged to become larger-than-life heroes.
I must confess I haven't read that many Realms novels (except Evermeet, the Avatar Trilogy and the Cleric Quintet), but most of the protagonists in the novels I read are very clearcut heroes, while the villains are very... eh... villainy.
SPOILERS
Take, for example, Kierkan Rufo from the Cleric Quintet. It's very clear from the start that Rufo will go down the path of evil, despite attempts to redeem himself. Aballister also wears a neon sign saying: "Did I mention I'm an Evil Wizard?"
Strangely though, the Forgotten Realms Wiki lists Aballister as being Chaotic Neutral, but no source is provided for that bit of information.
Read Paul Kemp's Erevis Cale trilogy and Twilight war Trilogy if you want the moral ambiguities and gritty atmosphere where characters die.
|
Edited by - Firestorm on 01 Jul 2010 17:51:05 |
|
|
|
Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2010 : 18:37:00
|
Very interesting scroll, I agree with all of the above, though maybe I had not realised it until I read it.
When I recommend novels to a friend who is not familiar with the Realms, I tend to suggest Drizzt's novels. However, next time it happens, I'm probably going to suggest the Erevis Cale trilogy, which probably offers everything that is good about RAS and still manage to be rich in Realms lore (available to new-comers).
|
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2010 : 02:38:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
Wait... so we want to trust a fictional character who has lifetime subscriptions to Mommy and Daddy issues, as well as an inability to come to terms with his own species or loss? And let's not forget that he can repress himself so much that he has psychotic episodes now and again.
Hush, you! 
Aye, we want to trust him, because he has just-about-always done the right thing. Yes, his hand-wringing and whining about it are annoying. But he is a genuinely good guy that you don't have to have second thoughts about.
There aren't enough of those.  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2010 : 02:51:03
|
Sadly I must admit despite all my problems with his writing (more to do with FR then the man's talent), he is the one FR author whom I have read ALL of his novels.
I have to say, Drizzt has lost his 'luster' for me, quite some time ago, actually. And Artemis Entreri... *meh* ...what could have been Everis Cale was turned into a 'poor, little orphan' - the final book of Sellsswords was so disjointed and out-of-place it was like reading two different, incomplete novels.
His complete lack of ability to use anything anyone else has written (did he really go and have to create yet another 'lost city/civilization?) notwithstanding, the man has a lot of talent, and Drizzt is just a dead-horse that has been beaten way past death now.
If anyone really needed to go in the 'lost era' it was Super-Drizzt. He is the literary incarnation of every bad 'Chuck Norris joke' ever written. RAS should give up on all the characters he wrote in the past and start fresh - tell some new stories in the new age. The man's got a lot of talent - he shouldn't be carrying that dark-Elven Albatross around his neck.
I guess its pressure from his publishers - WoT and SoT are two other series where you just want the main hero to 'live happily ever after', or even die... just to put an end to their (and our) misery. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jul 2010 02:53:29 |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2010 : 02:55:08
|
I grew out of growing out of things, but I may grow back into it.
The published Realms has always included both moral nuance and ambiguity, and shining heroes and dastardly villains. What's 'naive' would be to think that realism is the sole pinnacle of art. Hero tales are part of what humans do, alongside breathing and living in groups.
I'm out of touch with how much Bob enjoys writing about Drizzt these days. |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2010 : 03:29:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Slaygrim
I don't know... I think I want something surprising from RAS for once.
Aye, formula sucks.
But there have been examples of what you seek, before.
quote:
How about the goodly hero standing in the pass blocking off a horde of orcs alone in hopes to buy the fleeing peasants time to escape... only at the last second seeing his approaching doom he loses his nerve and flees. Let's see HIS moral dilemna and how he deals with true shame and remorse. MUCH more interesting than the hero who stands and "dies" only to be actually captured and later freed.
[...]
The would-be hero who loses his nerve and flees is no villain, he's a real person. Even with all of the morals in the world he is still a person and people are imperfect. No way would ANY RAS Hero falter at that point. Just some realism and depth would be nice I guess...
Do you remember Sojourn, in which Drizzt had to flee the little town of Maldobar because he had been framed for the murder of the farming family? He wanted to stay and make friends, or at least clear his name, but after that fiasco, he had no choice but to admit defeat and flee.
And he's been carrying around a sense of guilt ever since.
("The Hunter's Blades Trilogy" spoiler:)
In "THBT", Drizzt mistakenly thought that his closest friends had been killed by a horde of orcs, but rather than go and take comfort with the survivors, he just went native. He dealt with his remorse by blanketing over it with hate. He didn't have the heart to return to Mithral Hall without his friends.
And he had to flee from a couple of different fights in that series, as well: at least once from King Obould, and once from a camp of frost giants.
And despite it all, King Obould's orcs still win.
(/spoiler)
Now, while Drizzt didn't save the day all neat and tidy, in those cases, he still came out relatively unscathed. So we still don't get to read about how it all made him really suffer and change.
But in the latest mini-series "Transitions", Drizzt faces disappointment and failure to see his ideals all the way through in all three books, and there is a hint--alas, only a hint--that it is finally changing him.
(The Orc King spoiler:)
For some reason, Drizzt gets the impression that Obould still cannot be beaten. What's more, he embraces the hope that peace can be had with the orc king, despite the fact that he is never given any tangible reason for such blind faith. And then he talks Bruenor into giving peace a chance.
What irritates me to no end, to this day, is that Drizzt so quickly turns his back on the idea of harsh justice being meted out to the orcs for the travesty described in "THBT". He doesn't seem to suffer much at all from the idea that justice will have to be sacrificed in order to try to live in peace with the orcs. He's too accepting and matter-of-fact about it.
(/spoiler)
(The Pirate King spoiler:)
In TPK, Drizzt actually goes so far as to lightheartedly poke fun at Bruenor for agreeing to make peace with Obould. Arghhh!!! 
But the really important point here is that Captain Deudermont talks Drizzt into fighting for a cause, and even though Drizzt fights valiantly, the cause actually fails.
When he initially learns that Jarlaxle had a hand in it all, Drizzt is quick to blame it all on the mercenary.
But Jar points out that it's not that easy. The real reason for the fall of Luskan is bigger than any drow meddling. The real reason is the two-edged sword of the ambitions of the humans involved. The very people Drizzt put his faith in failed.
And even then, Drizzt shrugs it off too quickly.
(/spoiler)
(The Ghost King spoiler:)
Drizzt desperately believes that help can be found to heal Catti-brie and Regis from the Spellplague complications. But he turns out to be woefully wrong.
Here, we get a little more of a glimpse into how this failure makes Drizzt feel. This failure cuts deeper than the others. There is no bright side to this one. There is no room to grieve. There must simply be vengeance.
(/spoiler)
Lady Fellshot has pointed out before that it seems that RAS likes to end his stories with a big bang, rather than telling us how the ending makes the characters feel, what the ramifications are, etc. Climax = conclusion, essentially.
This is another aspect of the Drizzt formula that is problematic. It is especially so, here, when some of us want to read about Drizzt failing to save the day and admitting his limitations afterwards. There is a hint of it in TGK, but it is fleeting.
Sure, it's dramatic to go out with a bang. But it also seems to shortchange those of us who want more of an even-handed evaluation of what it all means to and about the hero.
But then, RAS/Drizzt has been accused of angst-overload, so maybe it's all a case of damned-if-he-does/damned-if-he-doesn't...
quote:
Or the moral dilemna facing Drizzt because he isn't certain he can kill a member of his own race despite them trying desperately to kill his friends.
Drizzt did go through this in Exile, when his siblings came a-looking for him.
And I vaguely recall him resolving himself to the issue once and for all in The Legacy. With a drow raiding party having invaded Mithral Hall, Drizzt recognizes that his former reluctance to kill drow was just plain racism. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2010 : 03:35:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I'm out of touch with how much Bob enjoys writing about Drizzt these days.
He's vague about it. There are times when he says it's a blast. Then there are times when he says it is really hard to go against the formula and try something surprising, but it's what the story calls for.
Many fans have made a lot of the fact that Drizzt has taken a smaller role in the last mini-series. RAS has had to deal with big events, in which Drizzt was only one participant, and that has meant not reading about Drizzt for large chunks of the books. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2010 : 16:13:37
|
quote:
Beast wrote:
Lady Fellshot has pointed out before that it seems that RAS likes to end his stories with a big bang, rather than telling us how the ending makes the characters feel, what the ramifications are, etc. Climax = conclusion, essentially.
This is another aspect of the Drizzt formula that is problematic. It is especially so, here, when some of us want to read about Drizzt failing to save the day and admitting his limitations afterwards. There is a hint of it in TGK, but it is fleeting.
Sure, it's dramatic to go out with a bang. But it also seems to shortchange those of us who want more of an even-handed evaluation of what it all means to and about the hero.
But then, RAS/Drizzt has been accused of angst-overload, so maybe it's all a case of damned-if-he-does/damned-if-he-doesn't...
Well in the Transitions books, it's especially obvious because they really read more as stand alone novels with a few thematic trends between them rather than a more traditional three part story. They are really rather less serial than any of the other Drizzy books. As stand alones, it seems like there should be a conclusion, but the endings given were more in line with what is normal in a serial novel set, which doesn't really make sense to me.
quote:
Markustay wrote:
If anyone really needed to go in the 'lost era' it was Super-Drizzt. He is the literary incarnation of every bad 'Chuck Norris joke' ever written. RAS should give up on all the characters he wrote in the past and start fresh - tell some new stories in the new age. The man's got a lot of talent - he shouldn't be carrying that dark-Elven Albatross around his neck.
For me, this is the only silver lining that the 4e cloud has. Most of the RAS characters I don't like get killed off, the minor characters I do like survive and prosper (although I have a box of tissue ready for Bruenor's demise, if it is ever written out) and there will be the possibility that Drizzt will finally find that mythic clue-by-four and an appropriate wielder for it. But I think it unlikely. :/ |
|
|
|
ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2010 : 15:42:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
What's 'naive' would be to think that realism is the sole pinnacle of art. Hero tales are part of what humans do, alongside breathing and living in groups.
Well said. |
|
|
|
mensch
Seeker
80 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2010 : 09:41:31
|
I don't think the gripe the scroll starter has about the Salvatore novels is about the fact that it has heroes in it. But it's more about the type of heroes that are generally featured in those novels. Also, realism isn't mandatory or the holy grail to writing good stories. One can write about larger-than-life heroes without them being fairly one-dimensional, which is what heroes who always do The Right Thing generally are.
If you look, for example, at the stories from the Battlestar Galactica television series, for example, where you have larger-than-life heroes dealing, each in their own way, with both their personal dramas and life-or-death situations. Their behaviour would be largely unrealistic in real life, but is very believable in the context of BSGs overall narrative.
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by mensch
quote:
Originally posted by Slaygrim
It's closing on a year now since The Ghost King was released and I haven't bought it. Instead I find myself reading "Best Served Cold" and looking forward to reading George R.R. Martin's books. I want to see real adversity, no clear cut "Good vs. Evil" lines (because there are few such realities), no angel-like heroines always in to offer the true moral perspective and logical answers, no "I just want to do the most goodly thing at all times" heroes, etc.
I wonder if there are any Realms novels which approach the gritty atmosphere and moral ambiguities found in George R.R. Martin's books. It might just be that the Forgotten Realms didn't start out as a gritty, realistic world, but more as a very "high fantasy" universe where players are encouraged to become larger-than-life heroes.
I must confess I haven't read that many Realms novels (except Evermeet, the Avatar Trilogy and the Cleric Quintet), but most of the protagonists in the novels I read are very clearcut heroes, while the villains are very... eh... villainy.
SPOILERS
Take, for example, Kierkan Rufo from the Cleric Quintet. It's very clear from the start that Rufo will go down the path of evil, despite attempts to redeem himself. Aballister also wears a neon sign saying: "Did I mention I'm an Evil Wizard?"
Strangely though, the Forgotten Realms Wiki lists Aballister as being Chaotic Neutral, but no source is provided for that bit of information.
Read Paul Kemp's Erevis Cale trilogy and Twilight war Trilogy if you want the moral ambiguities and gritty atmosphere where characters die.
Thanks! Both trilogies sound interesting. |
Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice. From what I’ve tasted of desire I hold with those who favor fire. But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate to know that for destruction ice is also great and would suffice. – Robert Frost (1874 - 1963) |
|
|
|
Slaygrim
Learned Scribe
111 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 18:16:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
The published Realms has always included both moral nuance and ambiguity, and shining heroes and dastardly villains. What's 'naive' would be to think that realism is the sole pinnacle of art. Hero tales are part of what humans do, alongside breathing and living in groups.
I am not suggesting that realism is the sole pinnacle of art, so please do not straw man me. I am merely relating what has drawn me away from RAS. Now don't get me wrong... I will make my way to the Ghost King, and I will read subsequent RAS novels. Drizzt has been a part of my life for so long and reading about him is what brought me to the Realms in the first place. I am simply discussing the cause of the decline in my interest.
I think I may have been spoiled. I've read the Harry Potter series (reluctantly at first) and the depth of that story alongside the identifiably different personalities that remain true to their character throughout the series began spoiling me. Rowlings writing was on a whole seperate level than what I'd been used to. I am not saying that her ability means others lack it, I say this in praise of her more than any intended insult to anyone else. She raised the bar for me.
Rowling had 7 books and an entire story plotted out from the beginning with such depth and with so many layers rich with complete and individual characters... it instantly became my favorite series.
I guess what I am getting at isn't that I expect "realism" as the sole pinnical of writing-I am reading fantasy after all-but I expect deep characters rich with identifiable personalities. For me RAS's characters became too cliche' over time. The lead character's were near perfect "paladin-like" heros, the heroines in every story had unwaivering courage, morals, and logic, etc. From one book to the next I could replace Elbryan with Drizzt, Drizzt with Luthian, Luthian with Gary, etc... and feel I am reading the same character-or close enough to it. The same goes for Pony to Cat, from Cat to Diane, from Diane to Katerin, etc.
I know it sounds like I am really tearing into RAS's writing... and maybe I am, but it is not my intention to trash him. I am tryign to explain why my interest has declined and this is purely my point of view and it is not greater than anyone elses.
I guess I've lost the ability to identify with individual characters and I've lost a real sense of danger for the heroes and heroines. I know that if one major character is to "go back to the mud" (Abercrombie) it will inevitably be at the very end of the novel, thus no mid-book battle ever really fills me with the fear or excitement a true threat of death would bring.
I am no author-I lack the writing ability-but my mind is full of great story ideas. I wish that I had the ability to write... I find that the more I read the writings of others the deeper my plot ideas run. I read an interview with RAS (using google to find them) where he stated he doesn't like to read the writings of others too much as it influences his writing. I don't quite understand this myself. Having influences isn't a bad thing-often it can be inspiring!-but allowing those influences to take away from your creativity would be bad. This should be within your control-at least it seems that way to me. Perhaps RAS should revisit this position? Reading the upper tier authors is what raises my expectations for the plot. Maybe it is just me... |
Watch my gorgeous wife sing at:
www.youtube.com/Airicx |
|
|
|
Slaygrim
Learned Scribe
111 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 19:40:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Read Paul Kemp's Erevis Cale trilogy and Twilight war Trilogy if you want the moral ambiguities and gritty atmosphere where characters die.
LOVED this series. Best Realms books I've read since City of Ravens and Elfsong. |
Watch my gorgeous wife sing at:
www.youtube.com/Airicx |
|
|
|
Slaygrim
Learned Scribe
111 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 19:51:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Drizzt did go through this in Exile, when his siblings came a-looking for him.
And I vaguely recall him resolving himself to the issue once and for all in The Legacy. With a drow raiding party having invaded Mithral Hall, Drizzt recognizes that his former reluctance to kill drow was just plain racism.
Oh I know, I wasn't suggesting I wanted to see this, I was using it as an example of his "skin deep" moral dilemmnas. If someone is trying to kill me or those I love I am not going to stop and worry about the fact that they are human when defending myself/friends. Just seemed weird...
I will say Drizzt has become less of a whiner in later books. He slowed down a bit on the "I shoulder guilt for every bad thing that happens that is out of my control" like he did over Le'lorinal and her tribe or the farmers in Sojourn. |
Watch my gorgeous wife sing at:
www.youtube.com/Airicx |
|
|
|
Slaygrim
Learned Scribe
111 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 19:56:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by mensch
I don't think the gripe the scroll starter has about the Salvatore novels is about the fact that it has heroes in it. But it's more about the type of heroes that are generally featured in those novels. Also, realism isn't mandatory or the holy grail to writing good stories. One can write about larger-than-life heroes without them being fairly one-dimensional, which is what heroes who always do The Right Thing generally are.
Thank you. You grasped my point much better than one could anticipate given my difficulty in conveying my thoughts online.
|
Watch my gorgeous wife sing at:
www.youtube.com/Airicx |
|
|
|
The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 20:45:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Sadly I must admit despite all my problems with his writing (more to do with FR then the man's talent), he is the one FR author whom I have read ALL of his novels.
I have to say, Drizzt has lost his 'luster' for me, quite some time ago, actually. And Artemis Entreri... *meh* ...what could have been Everis Cale was turned into a 'poor, little orphan' - the final book of Sellsswords was so disjointed and out-of-place it was like reading two different, incomplete novels.
His complete lack of ability to use anything anyone else has written (did he really go and have to create yet another 'lost city/civilization?) notwithstanding, the man has a lot of talent, and Drizzt is just a dead-horse that has been beaten way past death now.
If anyone really needed to go in the 'lost era' it was Super-Drizzt. He is the literary incarnation of every bad 'Chuck Norris joke' ever written. RAS should give up on all the characters he wrote in the past and start fresh - tell some new stories in the new age. The man's got a lot of talent - he shouldn't be carrying that dark-Elven Albatross around his neck.
I guess its pressure from his publishers - WoT and SoT are two other series where you just want the main hero to 'live happily ever after', or even die... just to put an end to their (and our) misery.
Well to be fair to Bob, it's not that he did not want to Write about new characters at all, in fact I will quote an old post from Elaine Cunningham(from Feb 2006) where she discussed that a bit.....
"Bob Salvatore had planned to write a trilogy about the bladesinger Josidiah Starym, but when he discovered that the character introduced in a short story had been detailed in various game products, he realized the story was no longer his to tell."
So several factors have alignged that have kept Bob writing about this particular group.(not just sales figures)
I understand the frustration with "not using what other people have written", but if you have a bit of a loose cannon (that seems to hit the target more than not), aren't you best served to "turn him loose" and have him create new things instead of riding roughshod over what others have already wrote about?
That's an unfair double standard for any author to live up to.
|
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
|
Edited by - The Red Walker on 13 Jul 2010 20:49:44 |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2010 : 19:07:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by mensch
Aballister also wears a neon sign saying: "Did I mention I'm an Evil Wizard?"
Strangely though, the Forgotten Realms Wiki lists Aballister as being Chaotic Neutral, but no source is provided for that bit of information.
Odd, since the Villain's Lorebook listed him as "Lawful evil" (VL, p7).
quote:
Originally posted by Slaygrim
I guess what I am getting at isn't that I expect "realism" as the sole pinnical of writing-I am reading fantasy after all-but I expect deep characters rich with identifiable personalities. For me RAS's characters became too cliche' over time.
Agreed. I've always balked when others have praised about supposedly gloriously "recurring motifs" in various authors' works. For me, I just call it unoriginal, repetitive, rehashed, boring, etc.
Then again, sometimes certain artists keep us coming back for more, even if we can see some merit in what critics have to say, ourselves.
quote:
I read an interview with RAS (using google to find them) where he stated he doesn't like to read the writings of others too much as it influences his writing. I don't quite understand this myself. Having influences isn't a bad thing-often it can be inspiring!-but allowing those influences to take away from your creativity would be bad. This should be within your control-at least it seems that way to me. Perhaps RAS should revisit this position? Reading the upper tier authors is what raises my expectations for the plot. Maybe it is just me...
I've also read where RAS says that part of the reason that he does not read a lot of others' work is because he thinks he has a bit of dyslexia, which slows him down.
So it's possible that he's giving us all that he's really capable of from his own mind/heart.
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Well to be fair to Bob, it's not that he did not want to Write about new characters at all, in fact I will quote an old post from Elaine Cunningham(from Feb 2006) where she discussed that a bit.....
"Bob Salvatore had planned to write a trilogy about the bladesinger Josidiah Starym, but when he discovered that the character introduced in a short story had been detailed in various game products, he realized the story was no longer his to tell."
So several factors have alignged that have kept Bob writing about this particular group.(not just sales figures)
Also recall that TSR initially told Bob to wrap up the Drizzt tales with The Halfling's Gem, but then they turned around to commission "The Dark Elf Trilogy", and then told him that that would be the end of all things Drizzt.
He successfully talked them into beginning a new series with "The Cleric Quintet", although he had originally wanted the star there to be a monk rather than a cleric.
Although that was obviously supposed to be a five-book deal, it didn't take long before he was pressured to once again pick up the Drizzt tale with "Legacy of the Drow". He was actually writing both of those series at the same time, for a few years!
And then he merged the two storylines together in Passage to Dawn. But I don't know if that was compelled upon him, or if he just wanted to do that on his own. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Slaygrim
Learned Scribe
111 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2010 : 22:00:13
|
After a trip to the book store yesterday I picked up the paperback version of The Ghost King along with all four books from George R.R. Martin's "A Song of Fire and Ice" series that is so highly acclaimed.
I have started The Ghost King first. I have to say that already I am feeling the same level of distaste that I've been feeling lately. ARGH! It's like I desperately want to go back to where I was but I just can't settle into it anymore. I am reading about my old favorite characters that I've felt so drawn to for so long, Drizzt, Jarlaxle, Bruenor, etc... but I am just not getting it. I find myself rolling my eyes at how often each character says something to another character and ends with "good dwarf." "good elf". "It wasn't me that brought them here good elf". It's SO TRIVIAL and I am actually annoyed at myself for being annoyed but it bothers me... Gah! Why am I being like this?
I haven't reread the Icewind Dale Trilogy or the Dark Elf Trilogy in several years... I might do that again after I finish A Song of Fire and Ice... I just hope maybe it's the newer books and the old ones still hold some magic for me. I truly enjoyed Artemis Entreri in the Icewind Dale Trilogy and even in The Legacy. After his fall from the mountain side and his time in Menzoberranzan where he underwent character development... I've slowly witnessed him go from that scary bad arse assassin with unshakable confidence to a "weaker" anti-hero type. I want to go back to the glory days and I hope they aren't merely a figment of my younger imagination...
Will update with opinions when I finish. |
Watch my gorgeous wife sing at:
www.youtube.com/Airicx |
|
|
|
Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 09:47:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by Slaygrim
I truly enjoyed Artemis Entreri in the Icewind Dale Trilogy and even in The Legacy. After his fall from the mountain side and his time in Menzoberranzan where he underwent character development... I've slowly witnessed him go from that scary bad arse assassin with unshakable confidence to a "weaker" anti-hero type. I want to go back to the glory days and I hope they aren't merely a figment of my younger imagination...
Seconded. The newer books (with a few exceptions) were just weaker, than the originals up to the Legacy series... and the Spine of the World. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
|
|
|
The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 16:08:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
quote:
Originally posted by Slaygrim
I truly enjoyed Artemis Entreri in the Icewind Dale Trilogy and even in The Legacy. After his fall from the mountain side and his time in Menzoberranzan where he underwent character development... I've slowly witnessed him go from that scary bad arse assassin with unshakable confidence to a "weaker" anti-hero type. I want to go back to the glory days and I hope they aren't merely a figment of my younger imagination...
Seconded. The newer books (with a few exceptions) were just weaker, than the originals up to the Legacy series... and the Spine of the World.
Which in my opinion just re-enforces the fact that they were something wotc wanted him to write about, not something he pitched to them. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
|
|
|
|
Slaygrim
Learned Scribe
111 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2010 : 16:39:03
|
I suppose that the reason I keep talking about this is because it bothers me that "I've lost that lovin' feelin" for these characters. I mean... I still like them but the magic is gone, and that troubles me. Someone hit me!
Maybe-for me-the story of the Companions of the Hall has run its course... and ran its course with The Legacy. Well... Starless Night was pretty cool as I loved the battle between Drizzt and Dantrag, as well as the the reunion with Belwar Dissengulp, but it started losing me with how Jarlaxle aided their escape (didn't make sense to me as the risk far exceeded the reward for the opportunist). So I suppose if I truly had to pinpoint where I feel the magic started to fade was around that point in the story. That... and I haven't been fond of Wulfgar since his "death" and I have never been fond of Catti-brie.
Here is what I hope to see from this point forward:
Drizzt with a whole new direction. A fresh start. This will require him to "move on" from Mithril Hall, which likely wouldn't happen unless Bruenor passed on. I hate to see Bruenor go but I wonder what he really has left with both Wulfgar and Cat gone... as well as Rumblebelly. At this point Bruenor seems like he would just be there for the sake of being there. Perhaps it is time to hear about his life, marriage to a Queen, and of their children taking over for Clan Battlehammer.
There is something very appealing to me about a completely new direction for Drizzt. A new location and setting, new friends, new enemies, etc. I would be VERY intrigued to see a whole new dynamic... and possibly a rival swordsman for a villain, the only "rehash" from the old storyline that I can stomache. It's not far fetched and it allows us to enjoy RAS's skillful duel narrative. Although this new rival could not be a Artie copy, he would need a deep storyline and distinct personality. Perhaps a character that isn't evil and possibly good... but with completely different goals that lead him into conflict with Drizzt. There are many possibilities... such as a character who believes he is doing the greater good at the cost of a lesser evil... but something that Drizzt stands in the way of because of the cost to innocents. Just one of my ideas...
I think it would be awesome to see Drizzt meet and fall for a drow woman... and not a saintly heroine like pretty much EVERY RAS heroine... but one who struggles to deal with the morality of a new world... one with a bit of drow viciousness still. One that causes Drizzt to inwardly struggle with acceptance that he has fallen for her and to openly struggle with her over her methods. She wouldn't have to be evil... but would do things like execute a helpless prisoner she had just disarmed and defeated in battle rather than tying them up and sending them off to authorities like goodly Drizzt would. It's not evil, it's ruthlessness. Also one who creates CHEMISTRY with Drizzt by ARGUING with him periodically. Reading about them struggling to get along when you know deep down they are falling for each other is WAY more interesting than two peas in a pod instantly falling into a perfect relationship. Relationships ARE work after all.
I guess an example of what I am talking about is a relationship more like Han Solo and Princess Leia rather than the lovey dovey strained chemistry we felt with Anakin and Padme'. Just like in the movies, despite their constant arguing and struggle for the upper hand over one another... Han and Leia really delivered their chemistry to the audience. Their relationship was believable. Anakin and Padme's relationship was not believeable at all unless you're 12. No chemistry. I do not think it was the actors, I think it was the script, the story, the writing.
Honestly, I felt that way about Drizzt/Cat too. Drizzt was saintly enough for the two of them and then throw in Miss Perfect there was just nothing of substance to write about other than them always being happy and smiling and doing the right thing, etc. I think a headstrong yet opposite character (not too opposite obviously... as Drizzt isn't going to fall for Quenthel Baenre) who challenges him and engages him would be a great story to read. I know this is nothing new but Liriel would be more along the lines of what I am talking about, although I know this is not a possibility. A character LIKE her. I think in order for Drizzt to fall for such a character it would likely take a drow female to engage his curiosity enough to draw him in. A member of his own race whom he feels is redeemable and worth exploring. This character might even change Drizzt some and bring him back to being a little less saintly. YES!
I would also like to see Drizzt with new companions who aren't quite so well aligned with him morally. When they are, it limits the drama and appeal of their relationships and interaction together.
Companion One: "Should we save them?"
Drizzt: "Of course. It's dangerous but it's the right thing."
Companion Two: "Let them fall. They do not deserve our help."
Drizzt: "We cannot let them be slaughtered! No matter what they've done!"
Companion Two: "Yes we can." *Walks away*
Later... Drizzt deals with regret (like always, he shoulders responsibility for everything) and engages in a bitter argument with his companions over whether or not they did the right thing.
FAR more interesting than:
Companion One: "Should we save them?"
Drizzt: "Of course. It's dangerous but it's the right thing."
Companion Two: "What are we waiting for? CHARGE!"
Later... The companions save the day and are invited in by those they rescued as heroes where they all sit around the table and high five each other for their good deed before continuing on with their noble quest.
I suppose as I have read more and more novels I've actually grown to enjoy reading about character interactions more than battle scenes. A good duel is always intriguing but great long battles tend to get boring for me and I started looking forward to character interaction. Character interaction ALWAYS sells better when there is conflict and drama rather than perfect cohesion.
Now that I outlined what I HOPE to see, here is what I expect to see:
Drizzt's "new" adventures will include settings already explored. Be it the North, Damara, Menzo, Icewind Dale, Luskan, the Snowflake Mountains, Calimport, etc. RAS has shown consistancy in staying within area's he has created and/or defined. In settings already explored by other authors and rich with history RAS has typically either avoided them or had expedited his heroes through that part of the story (Drizzt in Waterdeep for example). Bet your house that the setting will not be in deeply explored-yet always active-areas like Cormyr, the Dalelands, Waterdeep, etc.
As for his companions Drizzt will almost certainly be with characters already explored or their children (grandchildren or somewhere down the line). I am positive Jarlaxle will come into play as will Athrogate. Pikel and Ivan making appearences are likely, as well as a Bonaduce of some kind. While I do enjoy these characters at this point I feel they are more in the story (or a story made with the purpose to include them) just to be there as they are RAS and fan favorites. Companions will NOT be characters from other novels unless they are brief cameo's like Khelben in teh Halflings Gem. Sorry folks, no Liriel and Drizzt!
Villains also will likely be in the scope that they have been in the past. Drow, Orcs, Pirates, or some artifact. It is highly unlikely that the villains will be enemies already covered in depth from other authors despite their world-wide reach and goals. No Zhents, no Shades, no Malaugrym, etc.
A Disclaimer: I am not suggesting that some or all of these things SHOULD be in new Drizzt tales. Obviously having Manshoon as Drizzt's new foe isn't fitting, nor is having Drizzt hanging out with the Royal Family of Cormyr. I am simply stating what we will not see and what I suspect we will see.
I hope I don't come across as a sour puss or someone who knows better than RAS. HE created these characters and what he (or WotC) chooses to do is his right. This thread was to discuss my falling out with my former favorite author and characters and what would likely rekindle my interest. My opinion is just the opinion of a single faltering fan and means nothing more or less than your opinion. Just talking on a message board. :) |
Watch my gorgeous wife sing at:
www.youtube.com/Airicx |
Edited by - Slaygrim on 20 Jul 2010 16:45:49 |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2010 : 21:35:01
|
| Weaker? Perhaps. Or it could just be that the characters are simply not as fresh as they once felt. I do like some of the directions they have gone, but there are other things I feel have been done to ad nauseum. Drizzt has grown a bit, but mostly into a more broody type of hero, a la Angel from the old Buffy series. then again, he has that whole Angelus thing going with his "Hunter" side, too.... Maybe RAS is finally getting bored with him? One thing I have liked is the introduction of some new and more unusal characters like Athrogate. Then there is Jarlaxle's on-again, off-again attempts to pal around with D and co. As if he feels a bit of guilt for not being there to help with the little problem with D's father, maybe? He almost seems to be like a mentor now, sort of a drow fairy godfather thing. Could become interesting. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2010 : 18:02:59
|
If RAS features his characters interacting with another author's characters/locations/monsters, fans inevitably say that he didn't do it right.
If he avoids mingling his guys with their guys, fans say that he's not doing the Realms right because it would be inevitable that they would meet at some point.
Sounds like an impossible task, to me. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
jornan
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 03:43:19
|
| I too expect Drizzt to pretty much stay with similar characters and simlar places, but what I WANT to see is for him to explore something new. How would he handle travelling through Thay or what kind of reception would he receive in Cormyr and how would he react to it. He needs to travel new ground, develop new relationships and become fres hand interesting himself again. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Alas, I grown out of Salvatore books...
