| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 03:34:21
I just finished Richard Baker's excellent trilogy and would like to give my review on the issue. My biggest problem will be spelling out the Elven names. I swear, I like Fflar. The man has a nice, simple, and easy to spell name. I'm not even going to try to spell out the Daemonfae's House name but simply refer to them as the Fey'ri.
Ultimately, what I like most about the book is that it's got a consistent running theme throughout it. Specifically, it's the idea that heroism and heroic deeds are things that come with either a price or they are earned by people who aren't really any different than anyone else in the world but for the circumstances that guide them.
The book could have been a Seven Book Trilogy with appropriate time to flesh out the characters and their ambitions as well as personality quirks. Richard Baker is certainly able to pull that off but the events are really too large and the cast too numerous to be able to do much more than show them dealing with the events. This works for me because the characters aren't individuals who need much time to flesh out. The reason is because, instead of archetypes, they're really just regular people.
Fflar is, explicitly, a guy. Maybe better with a sword than most but there is absolutely nothing remarkable about him in his time other than he managed to stab a Demon at the right time before dying. Richard is subtly understating the "man out of time" elements that I enjoyed about Captain America and other 'heroes' but brings it repeatedly home that Fflar doesn't really give a **** about anything beyond what regular people do.
What are Fflar's motivations? After being dead for 600 years, he's interested in finding what happened to his family. What gets to him isn't that the Daemonfae or other evils have destroyed his civilization, it's the fact that his wife remarried after he died with his son raised by someone else. Best of all, after he manages to cope with these changes, he decides that he really wants a woman to cope with it.
Fflar is a hilariously "every elf" in almost all respects.
Araevin is a character that I also know very well because he's pretty much Raistlin Majere and every other guy who puts his ambitions before love. I believe that he did love Seiveril and she was the most important thing in his life but that he also took her for granted and we saw the results of that. Unlike Raistlin, Araevin isn't sickly or bitter but he's also too smart for his own good and ambitious. Now that Araevin has magic, he really has nothing because it's not going to give him anything more to live for or comfort. His ending is a tragic one of loneliness and desolation because he's never going to find companionship that he could have shared as a "mere mortal." The irony that he's not some Shakesperian tragic character and that a dramatic re-weaving of his soul destroys his one chance at happiness is well realized.
Ilsevele rounds out our "normal trilogy" with a strong woman. What seperates Ilsev from your typical kick butt warrior woman? She moves on from Araevin after he neglects her for a bit and doesn't look back. Is she understanding about Araevin pretty much saving tens of thousands of elves and does she give him a chance to win her back after he wins the war? No. She acknowledges he's not human, he's been ignoring her, and there's people who won't. None of the "fantasy gratitude" of many heroines exist here. What's most important to people is their personal relationships rather than grandiose things.
Likewise, the amusing thing about the Crusade is the fact that in 600 years it's almost certain that everyone involved will be lionized to the point of godhood (just like Fflar). That includes Ilsevele's father whom is probably the only one who genuinely concerned himself with "legendary" deeds and he only did that because he was without a wife, had a daughter, and was an old man. That's how real people react, the vast majority of true idealists are very young or middle aged with little to lose. It's a much better contrast that he's the only one genuinely thinking what all player characters think. "The Retreat has only made Elves easier to target."
Overall, the book series reads like a Dungeons and Dragons campaign. This is not a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination. If the Order of the Aster isn't too detailed or we don't learn as much about certain smartass Thieves as we should then that's just how life goes to be honest. There's a great deal of detail packed in here and plenty of fun adventures that I would be loathe to sacrifice any of. Even for the usual naval gazing that a lot of people mistake for a necessary part of a book.
I was surprised by the Fey'ri Queen Sarya's death. I had fully expected her to escape with the utter destruction of the Hosts of the Daemonfae. The fact she's destroyed removes one of the Realms more fabulous villains but she was growing a little tiresome with her profound arrogance and gross stupidity in certain areas. It was more satisfying to see her destroyed but I'll figure some way to ressurect her in my games. I like the less numerous Daemonfae anyway.
I hated when Fzoul allied with Demons, just like I hated his pact with Orgauth, but that's primarilly because I have difficulty imagining any sane person allying with demons. Nevertheless, I'm pleased to see his conquest of Hillsafar even if I would have liked to have seen Fzoul be a little less blatant about his plundering. Then again, worse terms have been instituted by many real life successful monarchs. Good to see the Zhents continue to grow and prosper.
Hail to BANE!
Bravo Richard.
9/10 |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ozzalum |
Posted - 21 Dec 2007 : 15:34:27
quote:
I think in the case of specific events, it's probably rare, but needless to say most novels of any genre are going to touch on universal experiences. So, if a novel seems like it's touching on a current events topic, it might really be a case of addressing a more general issue of the human experience.
I hope that made sense.
Like that one book, can't remember which one, where the guy falls in love with the girl. The author stole that straight out of my life. I demand royalties.
Obviously Mr. Baker was inspired by a real world event that sparked a real world debate that dovetailed nicely into his novel. It was certainly a rare (thankfully) coincidence that he was able to exploit. However I do think that on occasion other writers have taken up current debates in society that I don't think I would classify as "universal to the human condition" but that's probably a topic for another thread.
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 21 Dec 2007 : 15:20:53
quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
Yeah, I think Mr Baker answered my question. I don't want to get into a discussion of real world events except in a most abstract manner. As in, how common is it to address RW debates or topics in DnD novels? I'd say it's pretty rare.
I think in the case of specific events, it's probably rare, but needless to say most novels of any genre are going to touch on universal experiences. So, if a novel seems like it's touching on a current events topic, it might really be a case of addressing a more general issue of the human experience.
I hope that made sense. |
| Ozzalum |
Posted - 21 Dec 2007 : 15:00:25
Yeah, I think Mr Baker answered my question. I don't want to get into a discussion of real world events except in a most abstract manner. As in, how common is it to address RW debates or topics in DnD novels? I'd say it's pretty rare. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Dec 2007 : 14:56:35
And I'd like to add a note. Obviously, since Rich did draw inspiration from the events of 9/11, then it's something that can be discussed. But we need to do two things: make sure the discussion stays relevant to the topic, and we certainly need to exercise some care in discussing 9/11 -- it's a really sensitive topic, and we don't want to drag real world politics into it. If I start seeing real world political commentary coming in, I'll lock this thread again and we won't bother reopening it. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Dec 2007 : 13:38:19
Mod Note::- I'm re-opening this scroll because this matter has now been addressed in private. Alaundo, the other Mods, Rich and myself now believe it is time to move on and get back to discussing the Realmslore.
Enjoy, and remember to play fair! 
|
| Arkhaedun |
Posted - 17 Dec 2007 : 05:47:32
I think this topic is getting a little heated. We hate to do this, but we really need to take some time to sort all of this out. While this thread is closed, perhaps it would be a good time to look over the old Code of Conduct, take a deep breath, and try to remember our shared love of the setting.
Thanks. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Dec 2007 : 05:44:38
quote:
Originally posted by RichardBaker
If you couldn't hear the smiley when I was writing that, good grief. Rhin's pasted me 10 times a day for years now, and I've never had a cross word for her (none that I recall, anyway). Remarking on it is unprofessional? Okaaaay...
Well, you could've used an emoticon, if you were offering this particular observation with some humor. It's often hard for others to judge these types of things online. Use of a smilie probably would've helped to prevent exactly this type of mis-interpretation.
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| RichardBaker |
Posted - 17 Dec 2007 : 05:33:02
If you couldn't hear the smiley when I was writing that, good grief. Rhin's pasted me 10 times a day for years now, and I've never had a cross word for her (none that I recall, anyway). Remarking on it is unprofessional? Okaaaay...
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
This was uncalled for, Rich.
Rino's post have never been unconstructive. If you don't like her remarks, be professional about it and ignore them, don't post a rude comment about it.
And I know you have been taking fire for a lot of things lately and you might be stressed out, but that's no excuse to post something like that.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Dec 2007 : 05:21:13
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
OMG, defending one's self against repeated attacks is now unprofessional? 
That's not fair Brian. Really, it isn't. 
I'm not faulting Rich for his feeling disgruntled over Rino's near-constant focusing on her opinion of the books. But as a professional writer, I would've assumed he's had to deal with this type of thing before. And being a professional, I would've thought he'd understand the need to be more diplomatic and respectful of the reader's opinions and handle the issue privately. Or just ignore them, as he sees fit.
By doing it this way, he's not only potentially antagonising Rino, but possibly other scribes as well, especially if they tend to find themselves agreeing with some of her points.
As I said, if either Rich or Rino wish to discuss this matter, then they are free to contact me. However, we must also keep in mind the perspectives of the larger community here at Candlekeep, and ensure that each and every scribe is made to feel welcome -- especially if they've done their best to adhere to the established CoC. This type of conduct only brings out the worst in all the involved parties, and that's not what Candlekeep is about.
Now, let us return to the topic of this particular scroll.
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| Arkhaedun |
Posted - 17 Dec 2007 : 05:13:05
Let's please move on from this now. If we wish to get back to discussing the books, that would be fine, but let not dwell on off topic issues that are much better resolved through private channels. |
| Brian R. James |
Posted - 17 Dec 2007 : 05:10:24
OMG, defending one's self against repeated attacks is now unprofessional? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Dec 2007 : 05:07:08
Errr... let's keep things in perspective here.
Rich, you've come precariously close to breaching the Candlekeep Code of Conduct here. Now, I understand you're frustration, but I really think you should've dealt with this matter in private, say... via a Private Message for example.
Rino is well within her rights, as deemed by the CoC, to provide constructive criticism, just as you are well within your rights to ignore them or challenge them through private discussion, as you see fit. But this type of public interaction tends to polarise factions here at Candlekeep and create further conflict. And that's not really something I want to see.
So, I would advise all parties involved in this discussion to take some time to re-consider their future replies with respect to this topic, and consider the main points of the CoC with regard to posting etiquette.
I don't really want to seal this particular scroll, but if this trend continues, I'll likely have to do so. If any of you wish to discuss this matter further, feel free to contact me privately.
Thank you.
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 17 Dec 2007 : 04:34:00
quote:
Originally posted by RichardBaker
And, Rhin -- by my count you've now posted 217 messages explaining why Last Mythal is rotten. I'm starting to get a complex. Don't you have something else to do??? I mean, come on! My kids are heading off to college someday, I might need another few sales.
This was uncalled for, Rich.
Rino's post have never been unconstructive. If you don't like her remarks, be professional about it and ignore them, don't post a rude comment about it.
And I know you have been taking fire for a lot of things lately and you might be stressed out, but that's no excuse to post something like that. |
| RichardBaker |
Posted - 17 Dec 2007 : 04:23:09
[quote
Instead, the impression it left on me (other than it just being a badly written romance) was that these were two people whose relationship had run its course, and they remained with each other because it was convenient more than anything else (without really understanding it at the time).
[/quote]
Actually, that was deliberate. I wanted to strike exactly that note with Araevin and Ilsevele's relationship in the story.
On the topic of the "9/11" parallel... doubtless this will begin an argument, but I'll say it: That was deliberate too, although I regarded the attack at the end of Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet as the real "attack on the towers" that would shake Evermeet out of its complacency. Here's the way I viewed the parallel: What would happen if you could demonstrate, clearly and without doubt, that a strong retaliation was necessary and just? So yes, the debates in the council of Evermeet are intended to examine the debates we all faced in the months following 9/11. I'll elaborate on my own views about the real world events if necessary, but for now let's just say that my sympathies lie with Seiveril.
Finally, about the "game-iness" in the story: I looked at it like this. If everything the game rules said about the world were true, what would that imply about how people act? I didn't want to present a scene in my novel where someone familiar with both games and novels would say, "Well, that's just stupid. Doesn't the author know these guys probably have fly and dispel magic by now? Why can't they get around the stupid wall of ice?" -- or whatever.
For what it's worth, I'm shooting for a "smaller," more character-driven story in Blades of the Moonsea. Epic fantasy and cast of thousands can take a break for a bit.
And, Rhin -- by my count you've now posted 217 messages explaining why Last Mythal is rotten. I'm starting to get a complex. Don't you have something else to do??? I mean, come on! My kids are heading off to college someday, I might need another few sales.
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| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 16 Dec 2007 : 02:53:52
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
But I like Paul Kemp's novels enough not to care.
I could be seen as strange, because there is many similaraties in the style of Paul Kemp's novels and Rich Baker Last Mysthal Trilogy, no ? 
There's an ineffable quality that makes a person like one book but dislike a similar book. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 16 Dec 2007 : 02:52:44
quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
I figure it is easier to describe someone as the son or daughter of a demon/elemental than it is to say they have trace bloodlines from them.
And, it can add more drama to the story if the outsider is the character's actual parent as opposed to his distant ancestor. I don't know if Magadon's story would have been so effective if the character who is his father in the novels (trying to avoid spoilers, here) had been a distant ancestor instead. |
| Skeptic |
Posted - 16 Dec 2007 : 02:52:21
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
But I like Paul Kemp's novels enough not to care.
I could be seen as strange, because there is many similaraties in the style of Paul Kemp's novels and Rich Baker Last Mysthal Trilogy, no ? |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 16 Dec 2007 : 02:49:51
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Another thought, in both the Ervis Cale Trilogy and in the Last Mythal Trilogy, there was a planetouched who should have been a full half blood. The way that planetouched were described in the MM, FRCS, and RoF all described it as being a trace bloodline, that sometimes skipped generations. Maresa was the child of an Air Elemental, and the char from the Ervis Cale Trilogy (I can't remember his name) was the child of a full fledged Devil (or Demon, once again I can't remember). Does this strike anyone else as incongruous?
Yes it does. But I like Paul Kemp's novels enough not to care. |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 02:15:08
I also felt that the ending felt rushed and tried way too hard tie up loose ends. I was hoping for some more details on the Srinshee's return in Grand History of the Realms, but it never came to pass.
Actually I would have liked to have seen more covered between the last chapter and the epilogue so at least there was an inkling of how the characters got there. |
| Ozzalum |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 02:02:17
quote:
Another thought, in both the Ervis Cale Trilogy and in the Last Mythal Trilogy, there was a planetouched who should have been a full half blood. The way that planetouched were described in the MM, FRCS, and RoF all described it as being a trace bloodline, that sometimes skipped generations. Maresa was the child of an Air Elemental, and the char from the Ervis Cale Trilogy (I can't remember his name) was the child of a full fledged Devil (or Demon, once again I can't remember). Does this strike anyone else as incongruous?
Stop dragging the real world into the discussion! Oh wait...
I figure it is easier to describe someone as the son or daughter of a demon/elemental than it is to say they have trace bloodlines from them. Personally I have a hard time with the traces of demon/elemental blood in the bloodline. Does it only manifest in outward physical attributes in the occasional offspring? If so, why? If not, who is mating with these people with devil horns or what have you? |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 01:06:33
Another thought, in both the Ervis Cale Trilogy and in the Last Mythal Trilogy, there was a planetouched who should have been a full half blood. The way that planetouched were described in the MM, FRCS, and RoF all described it as being a trace bloodline, that sometimes skipped generations. Maresa was the child of an Air Elemental, and the char from the Ervis Cale Trilogy (I can't remember his name) was the child of a full fledged Devil (or Demon, once again I can't remember). Does this strike anyone else as incongruous? |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 01:02:22
I wish that Rich had shown the return of the Shrinshee to coronate the new Coronal (I now know that this was Ilsevele). I liked the trilogy, but IMO it did not feel complete without this scene. Random other thought: Maresa ended being one of my favorite characters. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 00:21:22
quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
I'll admit to be rather preoccupied with RW events when I was first reading this series.
That's quite understandable. Having something on your mind can quite readily make you see its influence in areas you might not otherwise see. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 00:19:40
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think any parallels are entirely coincidental. Sneak attacks and retaliatory actions are hardly recent developments.
I agree, and to tell the truth it did not even occur to me that the author might have been basing the events in the novels on specific and recent real world events. Frankly, all I got out of this trilogy was a mediocre war-based fantasy story.
I don't agree on the mediocre part, but I can echo the rest of your statement. It never even crossed my mind that any single aspect of the story might have real world parallels. As I said, it makes perfect sense to have done it that way. |
| Ozzalum |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 00:19:16
So long as no one agrees with me, all is well with the world. Perhaps I was looking for good escapist reading and instead happened upon what I saw as the War on Terror in Faerun. I'll admit to be rather preoccupied with RW events when I was first reading this series. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 00:16:43
quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
I don't see why what you wrote above about needing a motivation to get the Elves to the mainland conflicts with Mr. Baker perhaps being influenced by RW events. Let's say he decided things exactly like you said. He needs to have the Elves attacked at home to motivate them. Couldn't he still look to a RW example of the same phenomenon in writing his book? Hence the attack on Towers in Evermeet, the awakening of a great power, warnings from isolationists, the rousing speeches about good and evil, and finally the crusade.
Okay, let's examine this... Why would the elves need a motivation? Um, you are familiar with the Retreat, aren't you? Elves were abandoning their holdings on the continent. They were leaving behind often ancient realms because it was either too much effort to keep defending them, or because they wanted to isolate themselves from the other races. When the collective goal of a nation is to avoid others and pretend the outside world doesn't exist, they don't just spontaneously decide to totally reverse their course without a very compelling reason.
Think of it this way, using the real world tale of Ebenezer Scrooge: he wasn't happy, but he was not about to stop pinching every single penny and constantly grubbing for more. It took a major outside force, the visitation of four ghosts, to scare him into changing his ways.
That's the position the elves were in. They had turned their back on the world, and wanted no part of it. There is no plausible reason for them to suddenly decide to mount an major expedition to the continent, unless something both drastic and major shakes them out of their complacency and makes them want to interact with the rest of the world again.
The elves have to be attacked -- it's absolutely vital to the plot. No other reasoning would work.
So why is it, then, that you feel the author would have to look to a real world event? The plot dictates what needs to happen. A sudden, surprising, major assault against the elven homeland needs to take place.
All the material is right there. Sure, Rich could have looked to the real world for inspiration, but why would he need to? Considering the needs of the plot, what he chose to do is quite logical. It doesn't matter if it happened in the real world or not, because it makes sense to use that particular plot device.
It's logical and obvious, without looking at anything other than the plot. That's why I don't see that any real world influence was necessary.
I'm not arguing that Rich wasn't influenced by real world events. I am just not assuming -- as your posts seem to indicate you are -- that real world events were the only reason that particular plot point was chosen. |
| Skeptic |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 00:14:18
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I actually agree with you on this [..]
It's so fun each time you say it  |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 00:08:14
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
I wouldn't say it is mediocre (I'll keep that for Baldur's gate novelization), however I think it's was badly "designed" : it seems to me that this trilogy was written with the only purpose to give us a explanation for the return of the elves to Myth Drannor, something that was decided "game-wise".
...
I prefer to have good stories written for themselves for which the effects on the setting are decided afterward.
I actually agree with you on this, but I still think the books themselves were mediocre (or worse) even as written stories. |
| Skeptic |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 00:03:12
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I agree, and to tell the truth it did not even occur to me that the author might have been basing the events in the novels on specific and recent real world events. Frankly, all I got out of this trilogy was a mediocre war-based fantasy story.
I wouldn't say it is mediocre (I'll keep that for Baldur's gate novelization), however I think it's was badly "designed" : it seems to me that this trilogy was written with the only purpose to give us a explanation for the return of the elves to Myth Drannor, something that was decided "game-wise".
Spoiler (Backstaff) :
Blackstaff was designed in the same way (get us Kelben dead) but some (including me) will say that the author did a better overall job.
I prefer to have good stories written for themselves for which the effects on the setting are decided afterward. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 23:50:53
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think any parallels are entirely coincidental. Sneak attacks and retaliatory actions are hardly recent developments.
I agree, and to tell the truth it did not even occur to me that the author might have been basing the events in the novels on specific and recent real world events. Frankly, all I got out of this trilogy was a mediocre war-based fantasy story. |
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