| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 11 Dec 2008 : 03:44:20
This is my first post in your forums, and may well be my last. I have been a fan of the Realms for as long as I can remember, and have enjoyed stopping by to read through the scrolls on occasion.
I just finished reading through the 4th Edition Campaign Guide and I have to say I am thoroughly disgusted, as I see many of the scribes are as well. It is plain to me that the descent of the Realms which began with Wizards of the Coast and 3rd Edition has finaly reached its inevitable conclusion and gone off a cliff. It is nothing but a jumble of contrived plot lines thrown together to replace abandoned cannon.
While I have nothing but respect for Ed Greenwood (he has been my favorite contemporary author since I was in grade school) and hope he manages to salvage some small piece of his Realms, the only future I see for myself in with Realms products is re-reading old favorites and enjoying novels set in the realms' distant past. The current incarnation has discarded all of the rich and wonderfully developed characters I loved whose futures I looked forward to seeing penned.
As a result I have chosen to play ostrich and bury my head in the sand - I'll plant my imagination and campaign in the past. Maybe I'll even start playing with 2nd edition rules again just for spite.
I hope you all find some way to go on enjoying the realms so the profiteers at WOTC don't manage to wipe it out completely. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 15 Mar 2009 : 14:55:46
I don't feel like going back a page and doing the 'quotey thing', but about my Spelljammer/Planescape comment -
I don't mean they will present us something new that is an amalgam of both, what I'm thinking is another setting-lite using Planescape as a basis, with some Spelljammer-esque stuff tacked on (like sailing the astral seas).
Sailing the astral sea and sailing into the Shadowfel to ge to other worlds are both late 3e, early 4e ideas, so it seems something they are interested in developing, at least a little.
I'm not talking about the Phlogiston (which may get translated into the Astral Mists) or any of the other space-faring junk; just the basic concept of hoping on a ship and sailing to another world (a'la Elric in Sailor on the Seas of Fate. With them down-playing portals and teleportaion magics now, it would make some sense if artifacts (like these ships) were now the main means of inter-planer travel.
The idea merges very well with whatever they plan for Ravenloft - the place was always surrounded by a sea of Mists, and now that its in the Shadowfel (and the Plane of Shadow was the only way in 3e to get to other worlds) it seems a no-brainer to run all three settings together, probaly producing a new MoP and a Ravenloft CG, and between the two we'll get our 'world-sailing' rules.
More like an after-thought then anything actually resembling old-school SJ (which I didn't care for - not in concept, but in execution).
The Big Picture...
Also, I think their new business model - a setting a year - also works well with world-hoping rules, since their goal is to get everyone to buy every setting, it would probably be a great idea to give us some setting-hoping rules along the way. We may even see an inter-connectivity closer to the 2e model then the 3e ever was, although not nearly as 'over-cosmolgy' as the Great Wheel was. These new players they are designing for want new 'shiney' every 12 months, but they don't want to give-up their 'Drizztbot 9000' characters, so it would be very smart to give those players a mechanic for transfering to a new world, especially if WotC does more then LFR. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Mar 2009 : 09:04:58
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
There's a setting being published for the 4e MotP?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/242110000
-This is for the Plane Below book that is coming out in December. It is going to be about the Elemental Chaos and The Abyss. That is what I have heard. So next year they will make the Plane Above. The year after that it will be the plane to the Left and then the plane to the right. Lets not forget the Plane in the Middle.  
BRIMSTONE
Eh. I can't say that I'm all that interested. When I've wanted a worthwhile detailing of the Abyss, I usually turn to none other than the older Planes of Chaos boxed set for the PLANESCAPE setting. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 15 Mar 2009 : 02:18:29
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
There's a setting being published for the 4e MotP?
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/242110000
-This is for the Plane Below book that is coming out in December. It is going to be about the Elemental Chaos and The Abyss. That is what I have heard. So next year they will make the Plane Above. The year after that it will be the plane to the Left and then the plane to the right. Lets not forget the Plane in the Middle.
BRIMSTONE |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 23:39:58
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I also forsee Planescape and Spelljammer getting rolled together (which I would have poreferred in the first place), which will be the setting that gets attached to the 4e Manual of the Planes.
I don't see this one... Though I loved Spelljammer, it was never very popular. It's kind of the redheaded stepchild of the 2E settings. All it got for 3E was a single Dungeon adventure that didn't even try to preserve the feel of the original setting, and it was otherwise written out of existence or ignored.
I think it's inevitable that 4E will get at least one or two planar books, but I don't foresee Spelljammer even getting a mention.
Well, there were the spelljamming references in the FRCG. But they exist simply because they are part of the canon history of the setting. And, as I recall, Brian remembered how much some of us, himself included, loved the setting.
Though, at the same time, those references don't specifically mean that WotC is intent on designing a full version of the setting using the 4e rules set any time soon. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 23:35:30
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, my point is that each setting not only bring it's own flavor, but also come with the potential for them to add more rules to the 'core' (because ALL rules are now considered core, and cross-setting compatible... supposedly).
Well, we have the whole set of rules attached to the four main systems of magic in DL -- arcane, divine, sorcery, and mysticism. As well as all the other small divisions of magic-use. They've largely always required alternate rules, given how the systems operate on Krynn.
quote:
They'd need AT LEAST two new races (easy enough), at least three new classes (also easy, given the knights), and some unique rules, like stuff revolving around Draconic servitors (which could be easily cross-applied to Dragonborn).
There's certainly the possibility of new classes, since I can imagine some of the more recent characters portrayed in some of the novels would require class definitions that don't quite exist in core 4e D&D at the moment.
quote:
Dark Sun's got Psionics, and Ravenloft's got all the rules revolving around 'terror' and 'taint', so both of those bring a lot to the table, but I'm not sure if DL has enough 'shiney' left in it (obviously GH doesn't).
And DL has its alternate magic systems, as I said above. 
quote:
I also forsee Planescape and Spelljammer getting rolled together (which I would have poreferred in the first place), which will be the setting that gets attached to the 4e Manual of the Planes.
There's a setting being published for the 4e MotP? |
| Faraer |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 21:35:05
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Change is something that is always difficult and in the case of the Realms, we will never know the true imperatives in relation to the change other than the obvious one that it needed to change in some way to accomodate the new edition of the game.
If I acquired the rights to Middle-earth by some legal fluke, invited some friends around, made up a simplified Fourth Age setting contrary to Tolkien's design principles and stated intentions, and published it, that wouldn't be change to Middle-earth, it would be an additional derivative variant world. Getting us to accept that this is a matter of 'change' is the big deception Wizards is pulling here -- it's a simple category error of confusing the legal and the subcreated entities. The Realms is what it ever was.quote:
The method in which they adapted the Realms to 4E was never going to please everyone. Whether they did a good, bad or indifferent job is a matter of opinion.
To a certain extent, in terms of judgement of their execution, but it's mainly a matter of purposes and priorities.quote:
It is a medium that I do not expect will do justice to the Realms and will not allow the Realms to 'live, grow and improve' before 5E comes along.
It's also a medium that's integral to the whole concept of Realms-2008. There isn't a larger Realms-2008 out there not being done justice to in the way we're used to with the Realms. |
| ranger_of_the_unicorn_run |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 17:46:09
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I also forsee Planescape and Spelljammer getting rolled together (which I would have poreferred in the first place), which will be the setting that gets attached to the 4e Manual of the Planes.
I don't see this one... Though I loved Spelljammer, it was never very popular. It's kind of the redheaded stepchild of the 2E settings. All it got for 3E was a single Dungeon adventure that didn't even try to preserve the feel of the original setting, and it was otherwise written out of existence or ignored.
I think it's inevitable that 4E will get at least one or two planar books, but I don't foresee Spelljammer even getting a mention.
I like Spelljammer a lot, but with them throwing out the concept of all settings being in crystal spheres in the same universe, it may be too hard to adapt it to 4e. I guess it's possible that the astral sea could allow access to all material planes, but it seemed to me that they didn't like having them all connected. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 16:54:00
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I also forsee Planescape and Spelljammer getting rolled together (which I would have poreferred in the first place), which will be the setting that gets attached to the 4e Manual of the Planes.
I don't see this one... Though I loved Spelljammer, it was never very popular. It's kind of the redheaded stepchild of the 2E settings. All it got for 3E was a single Dungeon adventure that didn't even try to preserve the feel of the original setting, and it was otherwise written out of existence or ignored.
I think it's inevitable that 4E will get at least one or two planar books, but I don't foresee Spelljammer even getting a mention. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 16:36:13
Well, my point is that each setting not only bring it's own flavor, but also come with the potential for them to add more rules to the 'core' (because ALL rules are now considered core, and cross-setting compatible... supposedly).
They'd need AT LEAST two new races (easy enough), at least three new classes (also easy, given the knights), and some unique rules, like stuff revolving around Draconic servitors (which could be easily cross-applied to Dragonborn).
Its do-able, but most of that goes into the PG, which leaves the CG for the fluff you are talking about.
Dark Sun's got Psionics, and Ravenloft's got all the rules revolving around 'terror' and 'taint', so both of those bring a lot to the table, but I'm not sure if DL has enough 'shiney' left in it (obviously GH doesn't).
Then again, Tiamet has gained new prominenece in the core rules, so DL is still a possibility - but she got that promotion at a time when they were still sure about doing 4e DL. They could also be deciding to ADD stuff onto their schedule, without removing anything already planned.
I also forsee Planescape and Spelljammer getting rolled together (which I would have poreferred in the first place), which will be the setting that gets attached to the 4e Manual of the Planes.
I'm also confused as to why they aren't coming out with setting-specific MMs... those would have the most potential for mass-appeal... weird. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 05:27:31
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thats what I'm thinking - they are pulling back now, looking at their plan, and re-assessing it.
They are probably wondering if there are enough DL fans out there to make their numbers, and if they'll just piss them off more, as they did to the majority of the FR fanbase.
Well, if that's the case, it'll probably mirror the release of the 3e DLCS back in '03. We DL fans went through quite a period of uncertainty and doubt as to whether the setting would receive any official update from WotC. Even to the point where the fan-based Whitestone Council and the 'Dragonlance Nexus' started putting together their own "as-close-to-official-3e-update" for DL.
If Wizards are re-evaluating their products and release schedule, then we could very easily see a repeat of this again. Although this time, I doubt the DL license will be handed over to a third-party publisher as it was before, with the 3e release.
quote:
Also, one of DL's main 'flavors' are the Draconians, and they altready used that one. I suppose they could could give us Minotaurs (lotsa 'shiney' potential there), but the Kender are just over-excited Halflings (with sticky fingers). Each setting has to bring something useful to the core rules, and I'm not sure if there's enough there to make DL worth it for them.
Well, if you've read most of the more recent books, I'd say there's still plenty that needs to be covered -- and most would likely need new rules and whatever at some point. Recent events in Taladas, the restoration of Solamnia, the Elven Nations diaspora, the expanding Minotaur empire, and all the usual celestial jumbling-around... to name just a few.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Mar 2009 : 02:20:40
Thats what I'm thinking - they are pulling back now, looking at their plan, and re-assessing it.
They are probably wondering if there are enough DL fans out there to make their numbers, and if they'll just piss them off more, as they did to the majority of the FR fanbase. Also, one of DL's main 'flavors' are the Draconians, and they altready used that one. I suppose they could could give us Minotaurs (lotsa 'shiney' potential there), but the Kender are just over-excited Halflings (with sticky fingers). Each setting has to bring something useful to the core rules, and I'm not sure if there's enough there to make DL worth it for them.
As they did with FR, they have to gamble on new fans they don't have yet being in greater numbers then the fans they could potentially lose, and without us knowing any of the hard numbers about the 4e products, we can only sit back and make guesses here.
My own thoughts on the matter is that they are currently looking for ways to stop-up the current flood of people jumping ship. I know thats what I'd be doing if I were them. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 23:31:17
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I just have a hunch they may have made changed their mind about certain things, because 4e hasn't developed the kind of momentum they were hoping it would (as 3e did).
I've been having those concerns as well. When the DLCG was first announced, there was still a significant surge in anticipation for 4e D&D. But with the particular negativity toward the first 4e campaign setting -- the Realms -- I'm wondering whether Wizards may have decided to re-work their release schedule somewhat. Perhaps to give 4e more time to draw in potentially new players or fans of certain worlds. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 22:31:38
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
He says the old setting had way too much lore (and he's happy its gone)...
It's not gone.
Ashe: |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 22:02:59
My point was that they would (probably) attempt to call it anything else other than 4.5e if they do a revised edition. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 21:34:11
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Wasn't it also stated outright a couple years back that they weren't working on 4E?
In fact a Wiz-O over at the WotC boards got so angry with those '4e conspiracy theories' that he stated that he would ban anyone who who started another thread to that effect, and also went on to say that there absolutely, positively was no 'secret 4e project' underway at WotC, and he was tired of all the 'false rumours' that kept getting started on the Internet.
That was SIX MONTHS before the 4e announcement at Gencon.  |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 20:56:29
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
<snip>
"Niemand hat die Absicht, eine Mauer zu errichten."
(Nobody wants to build a wall)
Walter Ulbricht 1961, president of the GDR, a few weeks before he signed the command to build the Berlin Wall.
"These are not the droids you are looking for."
- Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Knight, when they clearly WERE the droids they were looking for
 |
| Ayunken-vanzan |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 20:32:07
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm expecting a surprise announcement, which they may be saving for Gencon, ...
4.5E 
No, no, no. They stated outright that there will be no 4.5e. So instead it will be "4e Revised," or some similar such thing.
Wasn't it also stated outright a couple years back that they weren't working on 4E?
"Niemand hat die Absicht, eine Mauer zu errichten."
(Nobody wants to build a wall)
Walter Ulbricht 1961, president of the GDR, a few weeks before he signed the command to build the Berlin Wall. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 20:09:23
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm expecting a surprise announcement, which they may be saving for Gencon, ...
4.5E
No, no, no. They stated outright that there will be no 4.5e. So instead it will be "4e Revised," or some similar such thing.
Wasn't it also stated outright a couple years back that they weren't working on 4E? |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 19:53:01
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm expecting a surprise announcement, which they may be saving for Gencon, ...
4.5E
No, no, no. They stated outright that there will be no 4.5e. So instead it will be "4e Revised," or some similar such thing. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 17:18:56
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
HOWEVER... this guy is the AWARD-WINNING, west-coast regional gamemaster for the LFR!!!
And he's growing bored with it...
He says the old setting had way too much lore (and he's happy its gone), but the new one doesn't even have enough basic information to run a game.
This is the problem. The few people in high places had a problem with all the lore of FR. Not the many people in little places such as most of us.  Hence it wasn't a vote OF popularity, but rather a vote FROM popularity that FR's greatness was reduced. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 17:16:22
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm expecting a surprise announcement, which they may be saving for Gencon, ...
4.5E |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 16:40:35
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
If I recall correctly the notes made from the DL discussion at GenCon last year... the DLCG will likely be in 2010. But I should point out that this was information collected in August '08. And a lot of things -- schedule-wise -- may have changed at Wizards since then.
I just have a hunch they may have made changed their mind about certain things, because 4e hasn't developed the kind of momentum they were hoping it would (as 3e did).
I'm expecting a surprise announcement, which they may be saving for Gencon, but since this is a hunch, and has little to do with facts in evidence, I'll just bite my tongue... for once. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 12:56:34
-I have known about Eberron being released for awhile. I was trying to get Markus to start speculatin about the next setting. I would like to see Greyhawk next myself.
BRIMSTONE |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 12:47:10
Either way, they should be sure to announce it at Gen-Con this year. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 05:57:58
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm thinking Dragonlance in 2011, Ravenloft in 2012, and 5e in 2013.
Then again, Dragonlance could be next, after Eberron, in 2010
If I recall correctly the notes made from the DL discussion at GenCon last year... the DLCG will likely be in 2010. But I should point out that this was information collected in August '08. And a lot of things -- schedule-wise -- may have changed at Wizards since then.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 05:25:28
Eberron in a couple of months, but I have a feeling we will be seeing something else before they get to Dragonlance.
I'm thinking Dragonlance in 2011, Ravenloft in 2012, and 5e in 2013.
Then again, Dragonlance could be next, after Eberron, in 2010 |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 03:38:08
The Eberron Campaign Guide should hit stores in June and the Player's Guide in July. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 03:24:47
DRAGONLANCE will be getting a 4e update. We know that much from last year's GenCon. But no firm release dates have been given so far.
EBERRON is likely to be the next setting published for 4e. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 03:20:56
-Will it be Greyhawk or Darksun that comes next? Maybe Dragonlance?
BRIMSTONE |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Mar 2009 : 01:39:22
Well, not to harp (especially since I'm on a pro-WotC high ATM), but there is a rather interesting thread over at WotC ATM, wherein a poster has asked the question "Has 4eFR lost it's Shiney?"
Now, just the fact that this is a person who is very pro-4e and has been playing it since before the books were even released, and now finds it simply doesn't have 'enough' to keep his interest would be telling enough. We could, I guess, chalk him up as an aberration and think everyone else playing 4eFR still feels the 'Shiney'.
HOWEVER... this guy is the AWARD-WINNING, west-coast regional gamemaster for the LFR!!!
And he's growing bored with it...
He says the old setting had way too much lore (and he's happy its gone), but the new one doesn't even have enough basic information to run a game.
Hmph... do tell....
George Krashos responded with a very insightful "Be careful what you wish for".
Anyhow... I have to hand it to Hasbro - they aren't the biggest toy company in the world for nothing. Think about it... folks are getting bored with FR JUST BEFORE 4e Eberron is being released.
Talk about the most perfectly-timed piece of planned obsolescence I have ever had the privilege to behold. 
While the gamer in me sheds yet another tear for my boyhood hobby, the businessman in me stands up and gives them a hearty round of applause - that was masterfully accomplished.
I figure 4e Eberron's got about a 12-month self-life as well... |
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