| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| freyar |
Posted - 05 Aug 2007 : 17:44:34
Has anyone played or DMed a beguiler or duskblade (from Players' Handbook 2) in FR? These classes have (intentionally, I think) limited spell lists, but I'd be interested in adding some FR spells (from, say FRCS or Magic of Faerun) to their class lists just for Realms flavor. Any suggestions of what to add? Thanks! |
| 23 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 13 Aug 2007 : 19:57:03
I must agree with Eytan on this matter.
If you rely have to take another class the best time to do this is at 13 leve , but you still loose too much.
But yes you shouldn’t allow it in your game, if you think it unbalances….
Everybody playing these kinds of games has house rules
|
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 13 Aug 2007 : 18:46:37
Everyone can and should choose what to accept and not accept in their games. I think duskblades lose more than gain by multiclassing in that manner, but that's just a preference. |
| Bladedancer |
Posted - 12 Aug 2007 : 21:12:50
Well I guess I am trumped by the much wiser designer. But I still wouldn't allow it in my game but that is what makes everyones game different. :) |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 12 Aug 2007 : 19:53:38
Duskblade characters can definitely channel spells from other classes in which it has levels (such as cleric or druid or sor/wiz). They lose a lot (base attack bonus, casting, special abilities) for multiclassing, but a greater variety of touch spells can be quite useful, so it seems balanced. |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 12 Aug 2007 : 16:11:12
quote:
Originally posted by Bladedancer
I believe Duskblades can only channel the spells on their spell list so that should help mitigate their power some. If that isn't the case I sure as hell houserule that it is so if I was dming.
Also I am playing a low level beguiler/swashbuckler in a campaign using mu bluff skill to make it look like I am using an assortment of wands to make it look like I am just a rogue (everyone has a secret it seems in this campaign). So in other words I am having a blast with this character.
Just my 2 coppers.
No they can channel other spells too 
If a duskblade learns spells from another class (by multi-classing or taking a prestige class that grants spells known from outside the duskblade list), that character can also channel the additional spells. So if your duskblade takes levels in cleric, he can channel his inflict spells through his weapon.
- TAKEN FROM -
Ref : Duskblade and spells not his
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9488
|
| Bladedancer |
Posted - 12 Aug 2007 : 14:32:16
I believe Duskblades can only channel the spells on their spell list so that should help mitigate their power some. If that isn't the case I sure as hell houserule that it is so if I was dming.
Also I am playing a low level beguiler/swashbuckler in a campaign using mu bluff skill to make it look like I am using an assortment of wands to make it look like I am just a rogue (everyone has a secret it seems in this campaign). So in other words I am having a blast with this character.
Just my 2 coppers. |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 09 Aug 2007 : 20:17:56
I just started playing a duskblade myself and it's pretty fun. My hexblade got killed (very disappointing class) and had to make a new character, so yeah. |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 08 Aug 2007 : 18:30:55
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
Quoting arguments we discussed no names.. understod 
Much appreciated. |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 08 Aug 2007 : 08:58:29
Quoting arguments we discussed no names.. understod |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 08 Aug 2007 : 03:06:08
Yeah, the best bet, as freyar points out, is to submit the question to Sage Advice. There can be some obtuse types out there that will accept only "official" WOTC answers, no matter how skilled in ruleslore a given freelancer may be, and a Sage ruling is about as official as you can get outside of errata (which technically isn't needed if its just a rules clarification, rather than a rules fix). |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 08 Aug 2007 : 00:40:16
I'm happy to clarify, but I'd prefer people didn't quote freelancers in that manner. While we are well-versed in the rules, are opinions are not canon and no more important than any of yours. |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 07 Aug 2007 : 22:11:58
quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
This is an issue where A is part of B, but B is not part of A. An attack action is one kind of standard action, but a standard action is not an attack action.
Attack action (according to Skip William's Rules of the Game article on the WotC site):
"Use this action to make a single melee or ranged attack. (Some feats, such as Manyshot , allow you to make more than one attack with a standard action.) If your base attack bonus allows you to make multiple attacks during your turn, or if you wield two weapons, you need to use the full-attack action (a full-round action) to make the multiple attacks."
This means that spring attack can only be used to make a single melee attack (or multiple melee attacks if you take the feats from PHB2). It doesn't allow you to make a ranged attack, an arcane channel (which is a standard action, not an attack action), or any other sort of action.
If this information is true, and I believe you then I am going to quote you answer on WotC message boards.
Thanks fore clarifying this issue.
Vic.
|
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 07 Aug 2007 : 20:12:07
This is an issue where A is part of B, but B is not part of A. An attack action is one kind of standard action, but a standard action is not an attack action.
Attack action (according to Skip William's Rules of the Game article on the WotC site):
"Use this action to make a single melee or ranged attack. (Some feats, such as Manyshot , allow you to make more than one attack with a standard action.) If your base attack bonus allows you to make multiple attacks during your turn, or if you wield two weapons, you need to use the full-attack action (a full-round action) to make the multiple attacks."
This means that spring attack can only be used to make a single melee attack (or multiple melee attacks if you take the feats from PHB2). It doesn't allow you to make a ranged attack, an arcane channel (which is a standard action, not an attack action), or any other sort of action.
|
| freyar |
Posted - 06 Aug 2007 : 17:37:05
Sian, thanks for the comments! My group is going to have a beguiler and a rogue, so it definitely sounds like a good group for intrigue.
Eytan, if you're still reading: you've obviously thought about realmsifying these classes, so are there any FR spells you'd suggest adding to the spell lists? For the beguiler, I've just about decided to leave the base list the same but allow FR spells for the advanced learning feature. Still, I'd love to hear your comments.
Re: duskblade and spring attack, this sounds like a good question for Sage Advice! But I guess from reading the text of the feat, I'd agree with Eytan, unless you can cast the spell for arcane channeling before-hand. Can't you keep touch spells around a while before discharging them? Can't remember. |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 06 Aug 2007 : 09:30:12
quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
The Duskblade (from Players' Handbook 2) is realy one of the most overpowered class. I am a Gm I a old FR gaming group and players sometimes have a tendency to play overpowered characters (Power play). One of my players made a dusk blad with the help of the The Duskblade thread on wotc message board, and its just so overpowered.
Spring attack and you are just chopping all down its relay one of the most overpowered classes.
Yes they have a limited spell list, but take some levels in cleric and channel your divine spells out through your sword
Vic
.. ups one more thing get a spell storing weapon and you can use that to to chanel spells.. 
As far as I can tell, you cannot use arcane channeling and Spring Attack in the same action. Spring Attack is an attack action and arcane channeling requires a standard action, thus they are incompatible.
Greating Eytan Bernstein
I don’t think you are right on this issue. On Wotc message board there are many Duskblade builds and all of them (almost) use spring attack.
It doesn’t say that spring attack is an attack action (please see below) you should rather see it as a form of move action.
But I am cheeking into it.
About calling this prestige class a overpowered class results in that we have a game designer fore rpg games in one of the groups and compared the warrior whet the Duskblace and he showed us how unbalanced it was. We tried it in game, and it really seemed overpowered.
Vic
Spring Attack :
When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You can’t use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.
You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.
------------------------------------------------------------------
The Duskblade's Handbook :
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=837888
|
| Sian |
Posted - 06 Aug 2007 : 09:27:52
well ... i've played a beguiler once and would love to try playing one again at some point so, they are useable, might even slightly overpowered in terms of stealthy or official terms, with being able to do more or less everything the rogue can, either by skills augmented by spells or purely by spells (knock, Spider Climb and greater invisibility = open lock, Climb and hide) ... on the other hand they are flatout unable to deal any serius form for damage unless you 'waste' a stat in strengh ... only with liberal use of enchantment spells such as color spray and sleep or by having a charmed minion in a leash they can really do anything ...
A protential overpowering thing to do with it would be to mix it with the Heartwarder prestige class from Faith and Pantheons since that'll give them a massive charisma boost ... though not that it changes that the Beguiler clearly is best in political intrigue, and as a rather noncombat merge of a rogue and a sorcerer |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 06 Aug 2007 : 08:42:29
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Action Types
An action’s type essentially tells you how long the action takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second combat round) and how movement is treated. There are six types of actions: standard actions, move actions, full-round actions, free actions, swift actions, and immediate actions.
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.
In some situations (such as in a surprise round), you may be limited to taking only a single move action or standard action.
Standard Action
A standard action allows you to do something, most commonly make an attack or cast a spell. See Table: Standard Actions for other standard actions.
Move Action
A move action allows you to move your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table: Move Actions.
You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.
Strikes me that one can move, then chanel based on the above text, but i an not the Sage (or other official rules giver).
It would make sense, but just isn't the case. Spring Attack allows you to make an attack action (one type of standard action). There are many different types of standard actions - attack actions, spells, and others. They are all mutually exclusive. This is why you need to have a separate feat for ranged (Shot on the Run) and magic (Cast on the Run). Unfortunately, since arcane channel is neither a spell nor a melee attack (but some sort of strange hybrid), this feat doesn't apply. This is a poorly worded element of the rules, but what they meant to say was that there are a number of types of standard actions - attack, cast, concentrate, activate magic item. Specific abilities and feats must specify either a standard action or a specific kind of standard action. (I hope that doesn't make this more confusing).
|
| freyar |
Posted - 06 Aug 2007 : 02:16:11
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Leave the spell lists as is, and save you some trouble. The "Realms" spells of old don't have the same name anymore, most don't even do what they originally were written to do, and everything's in the Spell Compendium now...
Don't actually have SC, though MIC has been so nice maybe I'll get SC someday...
Can you explain what you mean about not doing what they were written to do? Some history please, if you don't mind! I guess I only have noticed one or two spells just today: 1) Great shout in FRCS seems to have been nerfed and put in the core as Shout, greater and 2) Alicorn lance (3.5 version on Project Silverymoon and the Silver marches web enhancement) seems very similar to Melf's unicorn arrow in PH2. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 06 Aug 2007 : 01:37:23
quote:
Action Types
An action’s type essentially tells you how long the action takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second combat round) and how movement is treated. There are six types of actions: standard actions, move actions, full-round actions, free actions, swift actions, and immediate actions.
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.
In some situations (such as in a surprise round), you may be limited to taking only a single move action or standard action.
Standard Action
A standard action allows you to do something, most commonly make an attack or cast a spell. See Table: Standard Actions for other standard actions.
Move Action
A move action allows you to move your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table: Move Actions.
You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.
Strikes me that one can move, then chanel based on the above text, but i an not the Sage (or other official rules giver). |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 06 Aug 2007 : 00:55:12
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
The Duskblade (from Players' Handbook 2) is realy one of the most overpowered class. I am a Gm I a old FR gaming group and players sometimes have a tendency to play overpowered characters (Power play). One of my players made a dusk blad with the help of the The Duskblade thread on wotc message board, and its just so overpowered.
Spring attack and you are just chopping all down its relay one of the most overpowered classes.
Yes they have a limited spell list, but take some levels in cleric and channel your divine spells out through your sword
Vic
.. ups one more thing get a spell storing weapon and you can use that to to chanel spells..
As far as I can tell, you cannot use arcane channeling and Spring Attack in the same action. Spring Attack is an attack action and arcane channeling requires a standard action, thus they are incompatible. |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 06 Aug 2007 : 00:34:16
Leave the spell lists as is, and save you some trouble. The "Realms" spells of old don't have the same name anymore, most don't even do what they originally were written to do, and everything's in the Spell Compendium now... |
| freyar |
Posted - 05 Aug 2007 : 20:20:59
Hmmm, that's an interesting point. I don't have to deal with a duskblade in terms of power levels yet, though I do have a beguiler in a coming campaign. Really, I'm just interested in adding a few spells to give a little more flavor. I guess I'll just try to figure out the theme and add a few spells to the spell list. But I'm open to anyone's suggestions! |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 05 Aug 2007 : 17:57:54
The Duskblade (from Players' Handbook 2) is realy one of the most overpowered class. I am a Gm I a old FR gaming group and players sometimes have a tendency to play overpowered characters (Power play). One of my players made a dusk blad with the help of the The Duskblade thread on wotc message board, and its just so overpowered.
Spring attack and you are just chopping all down its relay one of the most overpowered classes.
Yes they have a limited spell list, but take some levels in cleric and channel your divine spells out through your sword
Vic
.. ups one more thing get a spell storing weapon and you can use that to to chanel spells..
|
|
|
