| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 20:53:22
I just saw this one today, although I have been aware of it for a while now. I only got a chance to leaf through it, so I cannot make an entirely objective review of this one, but I do know one thing that will start some . . . discussion . . .
Anyone who has seen it I would love to hear your comments on the top ten Dungeons and Dragons novels section in the book. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dhomal |
Posted - 19 Oct 2005 : 06:54:43
Hello-
Just a quick note - the first printing of this had the map printed poorly - if you were to cut out the counters from one end - you would damage the map on the other side - and the same ofr the reverse side (*the counters were not backed up to themselves*).
The bookstore I work at has already however received copies that are correct.
Dhomal |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 16:12:32
This book has helped my introduce my friend's girlfriend into the game. He desperately wanted her to get in our semi-weekly (maybe monthly) gaming sessions. I let her borrow this tome and she finally got the jist of all the technical parts of the D&D game. It has made my friend very happy, to say the least, enough for him to buy me a case of beer as a gift of thanks!
Anyone else have an experience with this book being that helpful?
C-Fb |
| The Sage |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 02:58:10
Fellow scribes, please let us return to the discussion about this introductory D&D tome and leave other concerns for the PM system operating here at Candlekeep.
Thank you  .
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| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 15:47:56
I could see you thinking what I had to say as appologetic if I had been calling for the all the books, not just this introductory one, to be repackaged into some sort of "neutral" looking book, or if I were calling for the game to change "demons and devils" to being called "tanar'ri and baatezu" (a person peeve of mine). I am talking about children whose parents are looking at the hobby for the first time, potentially with an already jaundiced view of it, so that they can see something that is indeed just a game, no matter how enjoyable anyone wants it to be.
YEARS ago when I ran a D&D game for my Sunday school classmates, in class, to illustrate how the game works, I made sure to let the teachers see the actual books, but I also made sure that adventure was not the FULL BORE everything that they were worried about thrown in kinda thing. They landed on a tropical island, fought a giant crocodile and some ticked off carnivorous apes, then ran into a cultist and some zombies and skelatons.
I might point out, my friend and I had both brought in our 1st Edition DMGs, but the teachers were more concerned with the old "idol, pulling the jewels out of the eye" book than the later guy in green robes opening the doors to the thousands of monsters. Not sure why. |
| Dragon Cultist |
Posted - 10 Aug 2005 : 10:21:28
[Dragon Cultist finally finishes chuckling in delight over all the banter on nerds, itchy robes, and budget illumination...]
Now for a sort-of-on-topic post:
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Forgive me for saying this, but as someone who is teaching his children, and trying to teach his children's friends, how to play D&D, it is a great idea, becuase it looks so much less intimdating that books designed to look like arcane spellbooks or with monsters or mystic lettering on it. Its not that I mind such things, and I actually find many of them rather artistic, but considering the cult like image that our hobby has had for so long, its a lot easier to give a child a book that makes our hobby look like a game (which it is) than one that might look almost like a religeous text.
Do I hear the sound of another tsunami of apologism for roleplaying games approaching? They roll in regularly, every few years you know...
...Whoops, sorry. A bit acidic. KE, I'll try to add some nuance. Some points I'd like to make:
1) There's certainly nothing wrong with books or other media that potentially "open up" the rpg hobby to outsiders non-gamers. Knowledge is only possessed by the learned, as the Candlekeep monks chant. (Well, they chant that in Baldur's Gate I. Rich in atmosphere, that pc game was. But I digress...must be side effects of the Dragon Rage.)
2) Having said that, books like that have been around for years (I have several on my bookshelf as curiosa, the oldest dating back the late 1980's!) Net result? Have these books made a dent? I guess not, seeing as how for many people, rpgs are still "dark territory."
3)"Apologism" is what I call this perceived need to explain/rationalize the rpg hobby to mom, spouse, curious neighbours, schoolteachers, pet rattlesnakes and what have you. In the past 2 decades there have been attempts by gamers (even including editors of Dragon magazine)to point out the social nature, average high IQ, literacy and other positive qualities of (rpg) gamers. Nothing wrong with that, right? Well...depends on how you look at it. You could say -and I've heard it said by gamers older and better at writing than I- that it's somewhat ridiculous to stress these positive attributes of the hobby so. I ask you, do stamp collectors ever feel the need to rationalize their hobby? Do sports fans? Perhaps some do, but there's no way you can compare that to the sometimes-painfully eager attempts made by some rpg-ers to "blend in with the picket-fence neighbourhood."
4) A last point, as a sort of disclaimer: I certainly do not advocate making out rpg gamers as more mysterious or cultist than they really are. Nor do I appreciate gamers who deliberately (for shock value) trumpet to non-gamers how demonic, occult and eeeviil the hobby is. It's not an evil hobby. It's not an aggressive hobby. It is, however, something of a subculture. And subcultures, from Goths to Magic: the Gathering players to D&D gamers, are sometimes misunderstood. (Sometimes even misunderstood by those who are in the subculture themselves.)
Let me sneak in one more disclaimer (darn who's the apologist now?). KE, I'm not pouncing on you personally here. I may even read things in your post that you never intended to be read that way. I look forward to any reactions to this post. |
| Jon Grey |
Posted - 29 Jul 2005 : 19:20:36
I've found a real desire to read it, as the stereotype for the game is that it has never been for "dummies." Barnes and Noble had it prominently displayed on the RPG shelf, which apparently isn't unusual judging from other comments.
A review on Gamespy (linked to Fark.com) gave it a (very small) positive review, before coming up with their own interesting take. It may just be me, but I thought this was hilarious..
http://www.gamespy.com/articles/633/633817p1.html
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| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 24 Jun 2005 : 18:59:58
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The local B&N put it with the other role-playing stuff.
Mine did the same. In fact, they gave this tome a prominent corner display in that section.
I found my copy in the Games section - it was stuck in with Crossword puzzle books, Poker for Dummies, and Texas Hold'em Championship Series Player Maker. Oh well... seems they can put it anywhere they feel like someone who wants any kind of games would look.
C-Fb |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 11:52:34
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The local B&N put it with the other role-playing stuff.
Mine did the same. In fact, they gave this tome a prominent corner display in that section. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 03:47:41
quote:
Originally posted by Darth KTrava
Not sure where to find it in a bookstore. What section do most stores put it in?
The local B&N put it with the other role-playing stuff. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 03:38:22
quote:
Originally posted by Darth KTrava
Not sure where to find it in a bookstore. What section do most stores put it in?
Seems a number of books put them in the Fantasy/SciFi section. |
| Darth KTrava |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 03:24:02
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Oh no, Great Alaundo, the wardrobe is fine . . .
(Paladin's of Deneir don't get into trouble for making jokes at their superior's expense do they?)
I think they get locked up with the books on Law and made to transcribe them a hundred times each.
Got the Tyrrans into this, didn't you? 
Considering my Tyrran paladin's probably scribing "Thou shalt not strike a friend, even in Dragon Rage..." hundreds of times.... |
| Darth KTrava |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 03:06:26
Not sure where to find it in a bookstore. What section do most stores put it in?
|
| LordEverhate |
Posted - 13 Jun 2005 : 20:45:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Then there is the other stereotype, Geeks and Nerds only play RPGs.
You mean some of us aren't nerds? 
I'm a geek, not a nerd.
I happen to be a multiclass geek 10/nerd 15 myself :) I am an epic loser! w00t! ^_^ |
| Xysma |
Posted - 13 Jun 2005 : 17:00:53
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Guides like the Dummies books traditionally try to give a relatively impartial introduction to a subject. No doubt some people will buy this book looking for an intro to RPGs -- for which D&D is a common shorthand among non-players -- and find information from a very particular, commercial point of view which they aren't equipped to read critically. No, we don't expect WotC to use its page count to promote other companies, but this isn't published by WotC.
Is this surprising or violently objectionable? No, but it looks to me like PR being passed off as journalism, and doesn't seem to do what I would like someone's first book about D&D or RPGs to do. Again, not having seen the thing!
Um, it's called Dungeons and Dragons for Dummies not RPGs for Dummies. Just like Microsoft Word for Dummies was not a generic overview of word processing software, and Ebay for Dummies was not a discussion of all kinds of online auctions, neither is this product an overview of roleplaying games. These are "How To" books written on a simple level about a specific topic or product. This book does just what it was designed to do, teach someone who has never played 3ed Dungeons and Dragons how to play, which, in my opinion, is a great thing.  |
| Faraer |
Posted - 04 Jun 2005 : 23:54:00
Guides like the Dummies books traditionally try to give a relatively impartial introduction to a subject. No doubt some people will buy this book looking for an intro to RPGs -- for which D&D is a common shorthand among non-players -- and find information from a very particular, commercial point of view which they aren't equipped to read critically. No, we don't expect WotC to use its page count to promote other companies, but this isn't published by WotC.
Is this surprising or violently objectionable? No, but it looks to me like PR being passed off as journalism, and doesn't seem to do what I would like someone's first book about D&D or RPGs to do. Again, not having seen the thing! |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 04 Jun 2005 : 23:32:37
I don't know exactly what you find objectionable about this. I am not fully supporting WOTC. From time to time I think they make some colossal errors, and from time to time I think that Hasbro might overule what might be a decision that we may like that a larger corporate entity might not see the value in. But what you seem to be objecting to is the company promiting itself. Since this book is done in conjunction with WOTC I don't know why it WOULD talk about the values of non-d20 RPGs (especially since its D&D for dummies and not RPGs fro dummies), why it would reference other d20 publishers or novels put out by other publishers.
I guess that would be like expecting characters in a Marvel comic to refer to Superman as the greatest super hero, or even a Star Wars RPG to say that Star Trek movies would be a great inspiration for getting ideas. I just wouldn't expect it going in.
Now if we were discussing what you are inferring, a Role Playing Games for Dummies book, then what you mentioned would be perfectly valid. I really don't expect WOTC to use its page count to promote others, and since they don't make a dime for providing the d20 logo, I guess I just assume its up to the third party publishers to promote their own products. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 04 Jun 2005 : 22:08:24
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
And I'm not quite sure how the book promotes "the company line" of WOTC.
I haven't read it, so maybe it doesn't. But it seems that it presents D&D house-organ-style without mention of other RPGs, discusses WotC books rather than third-party ones, presents the d20 play mentality and design philosophy uncritically, and has a 'best 10 D&D novels' list that rather coincides with what the company is looking to sell right now. True? |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 04 Jun 2005 : 19:22:30
Not meant to be a slam (I had the original FF on my NES YEARS ago), just that I had someone at work that saw my Dungeon Magazine and was trying to tell me that Ultima Online was the oldest RPG, even older than D&D. When I tried to explain the difference between P&P RPGs and CRPGs, he thought that we just made up characters offline to try to put into the computer games . . . |
| khorne |
Posted - 04 Jun 2005 : 19:10:31
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I don't know. I think people change a lot the longer they play. When I was DMing back in 7th grade I certainly didn't do things the way I do now, so if I end up finding new players that are younger, and they get into "powergaming" isn't that still a step in the right direction, and better than if the only RPGs they know of are Final Fantasy and Everquest?
And I'm not quite sure how the book promotes "the company line" of WOTC.
Hey, I like Final Fantasy! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 04 Jun 2005 : 04:53:18
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I don't know. I think people change a lot the longer they play. When I was DMing back in 7th grade I certainly didn't do things the way I do now, so if I end up finding new players that are younger, and they get into "powergaming" isn't that still a step in the right direction, and better than if the only RPGs they know of are Final Fantasy and Everquest?
And I'm not quite sure how the book promotes "the company line" of WOTC.
I was something of a powergamer when I started role-playing... I didn't go as far as min-maxing, but I did pay close attention to the numbers, and I made the occasional decision based on power. Plus, I had a bad habit of dreaming up über-powerful NPCs with magic items for all occasions, and then some.
Luckily, I outgrew that. Now I want story and concept, and I'll juggle the numbers to match those. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 04 Jun 2005 : 01:04:47
I don't know. I think people change a lot the longer they play. When I was DMing back in 7th grade I certainly didn't do things the way I do now, so if I end up finding new players that are younger, and they get into "powergaming" isn't that still a step in the right direction, and better than if the only RPGs they know of are Final Fantasy and Everquest?
And I'm not quite sure how the book promotes "the company line" of WOTC. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 03 Jun 2005 : 18:52:29
At a distance, this books seems to be too long to be an accessible introduction, too friendly to powergaming, and too much the WotC party line. True?
I am curious about this, but I have too little space to buy books from idle curiosity these days...quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
...its a lot easier to give a child a book that makes our hobby look like a game (which it is) than one that might look almost like a religeous text.
I know what you mean. At the same time, prejudice about what a game is supposed to be has twisted a lot of players' approach to roleplaying. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 03 Jun 2005 : 03:13:26
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Oh no, Great Alaundo, the wardrobe is fine . . .
(Paladin's of Deneir don't get into trouble for making jokes at their superior's expense do they?)
I think they get locked up with the books on Law and made to transcribe them a hundred times each. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 03 Jun 2005 : 02:51:34
Oh no, Great Alaundo, the wardrobe is fine . . .
(Paladin's of Deneir don't get into trouble for making jokes at their superior's expense do they?) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Jun 2005 : 02:47:43
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Then there is the other stereotype, Geeks and Nerds only play RPGs.
You mean some of us aren't nerds?
I'm a geek, not a nerd.
I always thought I was a little of both... what with the computers and all... . Programmers are regarded as nerds afterall.
|
| Alaundo |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 17:36:37
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
No, the candles are becuase Alaundo won't spring for driftglobes or everburning torches, and the robes are due to our dear leaders impared fashion sense. That's why so few Sembians choose to retire into our service.
Wait . . . His Most Knowlagable and Well Dressed Sagacity isn't listening in is he?
Hmmph! And what's wrong with these robes? Hessian is good for the skin |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 17:11:29
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Then there is the other stereotype, Geeks and Nerds only play RPGs.
You mean some of us aren't nerds?
I'm a geek, not a nerd. |
| Xysma |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 16:29:50
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Then there is the other stereotype, Geeks and Nerds only play RPGs.
You mean some of us aren't nerds? |
| Melfius |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 05:06:37
Great! Now, what am I supposed to do with all these sheep? Looks like mutton is on the menu in the Faerie Kitchen! |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 02 Jun 2005 : 04:09:12
No, the candles are becuase Alaundo won't spring for driftglobes or everburning torches, and the robes are due to our dear leaders impared fashion sense. That's why so few Sembians choose to retire into our service.
Wait . . . His Most Knowlagable and Well Dressed Sagacity isn't listening in is he? |
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