| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Na-Gang |
Posted - 05 Aug 2007 : 12:16:54
Does anyone know when or how Waukeen became a deity? Faiths & Pantheons and Faiths & Avatars both state that she is a "relatively young deity" and leave it at that.
Any ideas? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 May 2020 : 21:49:45
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Thanks, Wooly. In the timeline I have assembled, I had placed the Dawn Cataclysm in 709 DR so it is good to see others came to a similar conclusion (I used it for when Baravar Cloakshadow broke away from Segojan Earthcaller to become a lesser power and the gnome god of magic in his own right).
This discussion has also solidified (for me, at least) the idea that there are actually two events named Dawn Cataclysm. The later one was named by Lathander or his priests to show just how important he is ("Behold! I am the most bestest god there is and will ever be!") and the earlier one was named as it was for some other reason by perhaps the gods themselves. There are two rivers named Sulduskoon so why not two major events named Dawn Cataclysm?
Edit: fixed Segojan's name. I really do not need another midnight lecture by angry gnomes.
On THAT idea, I go with a bit of a heretical idea.
In -1071 DR the orcgate wars are going on. We have not one, but 2 sun gods die in the Untheric (Utu) and Mulhorandi (Ra) Pantheons in the same year. We even have an eclipse of the sun when it happens for Ra.
I put for this idea, but let me build the case a bit.
Unther had "Nergal". Netheril had "Jergal". Both are gods of the dead. After the Orcgate wars, in which Nergal dies too.... for SOME reason, Gilgeam does not allow Nergal OR his living family to continue to reside in Unther. He instead has a tomb built up near Narfell and puts them all in it.
Also, Nergal has a wife who is the actual ruler of the realm of the dead. Inanna has her as a sister. Her name is Ereshkigal. We don't hear much about her in Unther (except for some lamia noble by the same name beneath Unthalass who may or may not be related). We don't hear much about her, except in the Complete Necromancer's Handbook where there's a place named after her in Zakhara on the isle of Sahu AND in the same source, we see Loviatar storming Erkalla (Ereshkigal's realm) looking for her dead "sister" from Cyric.
SUPPOSITION: SOMETHING happened with Nergal. Maybe Jergal interloped in and "possessed" the manifestation of Nergal (for those that like the "Jergal is an ascended spellweaver" idea, this is probably the best option). Maybe Nergal interloped to the Netherese as Jergal.
When Inanna dies, maybe she gives over her portfolios to an outsider goddess of similar views (Loviatar), much as how Ramman gave over his portfolios to Anhur.
So, why did I lay all that out? Because what if Jergal and Inanna weren't the only Mulan gods interloping? We know Assuran also left the Untheric pantheon for the "Faerunian" one. We know Bast left the Mulhorandi pantheon to become Sharess. We know Nanna-sin had ties to Selune.
So, what if Ra (or Amon-Ra as he is sometimes known) has some kind of ties to the Faerunian god Amaunator (Amon-Ra'tar) because Amon-Ra took over a sun goddess named A'tar who was Kozah (Talos') wife. His wife has been "woo'd" to the god of the dead (N'Asr). As a result, Kozah has a beef with Ra, and he sponsors an outsider god to come into Toril (Gruumsh) in avatar form. Gruumsh kills Ra.
I guess what I'm getting to is that perhaps when Ra and Utu died, perhaps so did "Amaunator". Maybe there was some shenanigans going on cross pantheons with the Mulan gods trying to establish footholds here by interloping. Essentially, this might be what the "Dawn Cataclysm" was long ago when it started, when several sun deities in several pantheons all "died" within a short time span from each other. Furthermore, when Ra dies, its specifically called out as "one of the first known Deicides".... yet one god killing another shouldn't have been unknown... so maybe it was much more in-depth than just "Gruumsh killed Ra".
To add even further into all this, while we're talking about all these sun gods dying... guess what else is dying? Well, so did Nergal and so did Osiris shortly afterward. Both are gods of the realm of the dead. Osiris is "resurrected" by his wife Isis (who also supposedly takes over Ishtar's portfolios around this time), but he's "not the same" after this.
What else happens after this? Gilgeam starts turning into a tyrant, seemingly around the same time that Bane starts setting up shop on the borders of Unther..... Bane who assumed power from Jergal along with Myrkul (the new lord of the dead) and Bhaal.
Basically, what if a lot of the godly shenanigans that were going on were going on cross pantheons, with Mulan gods actually trying to interlope into other parts of the world successfully. The entirety of the Netherese pantheon may have in fact have been Mulan gods somehow taking over other entities (for instance, the Babylonian god of the night named Anshar sounds a lot like the goddess Shar). Similarly, "Kozah"/"Anu"/"Bhaelros" could easily be Enlil.
|
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 24 May 2020 : 18:32:36
Thanks, Wooly. In the timeline I have assembled, I had placed the Dawn Cataclysm in 709 DR so it is good to see others came to a similar conclusion (I used it for when Baravar Cloakshadow broke away from Segojan Earthcaller to become a lesser power and the gnome god of magic in his own right).
This discussion has also solidified (for me, at least) the idea that there are actually two events named Dawn Cataclysm. The later one was named by Lathander or his priests to show just how important he is ("Behold! I am the most bestest god there is and will ever be!") and the earlier one was named as it was for some other reason by perhaps the gods themselves. There are two rivers named Sulduskoon so why not two major events named Dawn Cataclysm?
Edit: fixed Segojan's name. I really do not need another midnight lecture by angry gnomes. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 May 2020 : 17:46:49
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Young means a different thing for deities.
She didn't have to be around for all of Jhaamdath's time; she could have arisen there shortly before the empire fell -- which was *after* the fall of Netheril.
Lathander is also described as being young, and we know he was worshipped in Athalantar in the 200s DR -- but he had to be around much longer than that to have started the Dawn Cataclysm, which we now know happened during the time of Mystryl. (I suspect it predates Netheril).
Was it 4e that retconned when the Dawn Cataclysm happened? The 3e FRCS has this about it:
"A divine event now known as the Dawn Cataclysm resulted in numerous transformations among the deities, though the only known impacts on Toril came from a schism in Tyche’s church that led to her demise and the rise of the goddesses Beshaba and Tymnra. The schisms took place during the 8th century DR.
Some centuries before the Dawn Cataclysm (mortals have difficulty dating events involving the deities), the first Magister, Azuth the High One, battled his rival Savras the All-Seeing for supremacy in service to Mystra. The battle lasted years, ending when Azuth finally imprisoned Savras in a magic staff.
Other events in this time period may be tied to the Dawn Cataclysm, such as the ending of the second empire of Unther, the formation of the Harpers, the arrival of demon-king Iyachtu Xvim the Baneson in Westgate, and the imprisonment of Moander."
Well, the thing is, they've always avoided giving anything approximating a date to the Dawn Cataclysm. I myself, using the info from the 3E FRCS, had posited that the DC happened between 700 DR and 712 DR.
But Ed recently said on Twitter that Mystryl had Chosen in case the Weave went down -- and that it had gone down, during her time, because of the Dawn Cataclysm.
So if Mystryl was around for the Dawn Cataclysm, we have to move the timeline way up on that. I would say the DC predated Netheril, because that would certainly be a very noteworthy thing, and yet isn't in their records.
As for the schism in Tyche's church... Also from Twitter:
quote:
@Greysil_Tassyr
A new conundrum, then... Tyche was split during the Dawn Cataclysm. Karsus's Oops was in -339 DR, so the DC had to be before then -- but Tyche's church didn't split into Tymora's and Beshaba's until the 700s... Why the millennium-long delay?
@TheEdVerse
NDA. (Diabolical laughter.)
Elminster sighs, rolls eyes, steps in front of laughing Eddie, and says solemnly: "The answer is lost to us in the mists of time. Just get on with thy life."
@Greysil_Tassyr
Poo. I feared the arrival of that particular Trio Nefarious, as the esteemed Steven Schend once spoke of NDAs.
Thankee for the lore, even if it does upend all my prior speculation about when the DC happened!
@TheEdVerse
We still don't know when it happened...or even if it happened the way we've been told. Priests of Lathander have a very different take on it than many other clergies...and not one priest alive today was alive then, to know the truth. It's ALL speculation.
#Realmslore
|
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 24 May 2020 : 17:34:31
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Young means a different thing for deities.
She didn't have to be around for all of Jhaamdath's time; she could have arisen there shortly before the empire fell -- which was *after* the fall of Netheril.
Lathander is also described as being young, and we know he was worshipped in Athalantar in the 200s DR -- but he had to be around much longer than that to have started the Dawn Cataclysm, which we now know happened during the time of Mystryl. (I suspect it predates Netheril).
Was it 4e that retconned when the Dawn Cataclysm happened? The 3e FRCS has this about it:
"A divine event now known as the Dawn Cataclysm resulted in numerous transformations among the deities, though the only known impacts on Toril came from a schism in Tyche’s church that led to her demise and the rise of the goddesses Beshaba and Tymnra. The schisms took place during the 8th century DR.
Some centuries before the Dawn Cataclysm (mortals have difficulty dating events involving the deities), the first Magister, Azuth the High One, battled his rival Savras the All-Seeing for supremacy in service to Mystra. The battle lasted years, ending when Azuth finally imprisoned Savras in a magic staff.
Other events in this time period may be tied to the Dawn Cataclysm, such as the ending of the second empire of Unther, the formation of the Harpers, the arrival of demon-king Iyachtu Xvim the Baneson in Westgate, and the imprisonment of Moander."
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 May 2020 : 07:34:23
Tyr's faith was originally described as "a new faith having appeared in the forgotten realms within the last thousand years". They later retcon this and give a date wherein he was in the realms within the last 1700 years or so in GHotR. However, the point being... within a thousand years is meant to be described not as "young", but as "new". In my lingo, "young" is typically older than "new", and I'd say any "young deity" might have been around 2 or 3 thousand years. Now that doesn't preclude some later retcon that might give a definitive date of her arrival, and of course its subjective, but there's no "definition" given to us for what exactly "young" means in terms of deities.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 May 2020 : 05:47:28
Young means a different thing for deities.
She didn't have to be around for all of Jhaamdath's time; she could have arisen there shortly before the empire fell -- which was *after* the fall of Netheril.
Lathander is also described as being young, and we know he was worshipped in Athalantar in the 200s DR -- but he had to be around much longer than that to have started the Dawn Cataclysm, which we now know happened during the time of Mystryl. (I suspect it predates Netheril). |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 24 May 2020 : 03:39:07
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'd have her come from the Jhaamdathi pantheon personally.
-- George Krashos
Do you also think that it was the Dawn Cataclysm that combined the various pantheons into the Faerunian Pantheon? Perhaps that was when Ao decided on the "no shared portfolios" thing and there was a celestial cage match as a result with Waukeen getting lucky because Selune took out Tyche for her. Considering that the most holy site for Waukeen is in Athkatla, how would that have fit in for a Jhaamdathi god? I would have expected it to be in Chondath, instead.
Her most holy city is there now. How long has it been there? Did it shift with trading over time (for instance, after Jhaamdath was swallowed by a tidal wave?). If so, that's not a hugely long distance move. Also, might there have been trade between the Jhaamdathi and the Talfir peoples and thus Waukeen became big in both communities (which I'd also buy).
Kind of secondarily, I could buy Lliira as a Talfir pantheon deity along with Oghma and Milil (rather than a Jhaamdathi god), and Deneir coming along from somewhere as a mix of these two Jhaamdathi/Talfir cultures (Deneir fits the Jhaamdathi "mold", but his ties to Oghma possibly came along as he may have actually helped establish trade with contracts, etc... as a mortal).
Oh, and as path of BOTH these pantheons, I'd have Lurue. She fits the nature/magic side of the Talfir AND the intellectual side of Jhaamdath (as a god of intelligent beasts). Oh, and I definitely picture Eldath as coming from both Jhaamdath/Talfir as well, as a goddess of peace as a concept and also nature in the form of rivers/springs, etc... (that being said, Eldath MAY have also been Ishtar interloping from the Shaar/Unther region... and the stories of her just leaving and giving up her power to Isis were because she was being run out by Gilgeam).
Unfortunately, that doesn't necessarily work for Waukeen since it runs right up against her entry in Faiths & Avatars on page 176: "Waukeen is a relatively young deity." If she is Jhaamdathi, should could be older than Netheril and thus older than some of their gods. The same goes for any gods of Calim's human slaves, the Talfir, and just about every other human culture in the Realms (unless I am missing one). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 May 2020 : 03:18:41
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'd have her come from the Jhaamdathi pantheon personally.
-- George Krashos
Do you also think that it was the Dawn Cataclysm that combined the various pantheons into the Faerunian Pantheon? Perhaps that was when Ao decided on the "no shared portfolios" thing and there was a celestial cage match as a result with Waukeen getting lucky because Selune took out Tyche for her. Considering that the most holy site for Waukeen is in Athkatla, how would that have fit in for a Jhaamdathi god? I would have expected it to be in Chondath, instead.
Her most holy city is there now. How long has it been there? Did it shift with trading over time (for instance, after Jhaamdath was swallowed by a tidal wave?). If so, that's not a hugely long distance move. Also, might there have been trade between the Jhaamdathi and the Talfir peoples and thus Waukeen became big in both communities (which I'd also buy).
Kind of secondarily, I could buy Lliira as a Talfir pantheon deity along with Oghma and Milil (rather than a Jhaamdathi god), and Deneir coming along from somewhere as a mix of these two Jhaamdathi/Talfir cultures (Deneir fits the Jhaamdathi "mold", but his ties to Oghma possibly came along as he may have actually helped establish trade with contracts, etc... as a mortal).
Oh, and as path of BOTH these pantheons, I'd have Lurue. She fits the nature/magic side of the Talfir AND the intellectual side of Jhaamdath (as a god of intelligent beasts). Oh, and I definitely picture Eldath as coming from both Jhaamdath/Talfir as well, as a goddess of peace as a concept and also nature in the form of rivers/springs, etc... (that being said, Eldath MAY have also been Ishtar interloping from the Shaar/Unther region... and the stories of her just leaving and giving up her power to Isis were because she was being run out by Gilgeam). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 May 2020 : 02:34:37
I'd personally say it was the expansion of citystates in each area, pushing areas of control closer to each other, and increased trade between them. My thinking is that it's not going to be some event in the heavens that suddenly gets people worshipping a group of gods they'd never heard of -- it's travelers bringing word of their gods with them, and people going to other places and learning about other gods. The intermixing of cultures is what melded the separate pantheons together. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 24 May 2020 : 01:59:35
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'd have her come from the Jhaamdathi pantheon personally.
-- George Krashos
Do you also think that it was the Dawn Cataclysm that combined the various pantheons into the Faerunian Pantheon? Perhaps that was when Ao decided on the "no shared portfolios" thing and there was a celestial cage match as a result with Waukeen getting lucky because Selune took out Tyche for her. Considering that the most holy site for Waukeen is in Athkatla, how would that have fit in for a Jhaamdathi god? I would have expected it to be in Chondath, instead. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 24 May 2020 : 01:10:15
I'd have her come from the Jhaamdathi pantheon personally.
-- George Krashos |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 May 2020 : 16:54:35
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I would look at where waukeen temples are centred and her worship is strongest, that should give you a clue to where her worship began.
The netherese spread out across the north of faerun - the savage frontier, the moonsea, vaasa, nimbral, and halruaa. If waukeen has her worship centred in those regions (which she doesnt), then you could be confident in saying her church was first established there.
If waukeens church is strongest in calimshan, amn, tethyr, and the vilhon then she is likely of calishite / jhaamdath origin (those two pantheons merged before netheril rose).
If waukeens church is centred in the sword coast north and the western heartlands and rashemen, then she is of illuskan origin.
If she is vilhon, impiltur, damara, Serbia, cormyr, dalelands then she is jhaamdath in origin.
If it's a mixture of any of the above then chances are she arose during the diaspora as the pantheons mixed and people merged.
I'd agree here. Plus, she could very much fit the Jhaamdath pantheon "feel", wherein a lot of the deities of that pantheon seem to be around knowledge, thought, etc... for instance, they had Auppenser (psionics), Murdane (wisdom, pragmatism, and reason), Valigan Thirdborn (chaos/trickster), Helm (defense), Savras (divination), Tyr (justice), and possibly Melith of Chessenta (a deity of Chessenta in Old Empires who has creativity... could definitely be a Jhaamdath import)… then there's the whole question of whether Oghma, Denier, Milil, and Gond were in Jhaamdath. So, having a god of traders, wealth, finances in that pantheon makes a lot o sense to me more than the magically focused netherese. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 21 May 2020 : 00:02:26
Well, for my purposes, the actual mechanics of how Waukeen became the goddess of trade is less important than the timeframe. If she was "minted" around 700 DR, that would give me an idea of when her temple could have been built in Iriaebor and it is that timeframe that helps me with the history of Iriaebor that I am working on. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 May 2020 : 23:22:42
I think the lore about Tyche splitting in two is too definitive -- especially since the novel involving an attempted rebirth of Tyche didn't even mention Waukeen. I've read that one, recently.
If it was only one place that said it, that'd be one thing -- but the lore is in multiple sources and a novel.
The bit about flipping a coin formed from Tyche doesn't really factor in -- it's a coin. It's not divine, and nothing indicates it was part of the split into Tymora and Beshaba. The coin could have been formed after the fact, from inert material left behind when the two split.
Hence my suggestion. Waukeen's ascension being a later event maintains all existing lore. If Waukeen was a mortal who served Tyche, possibly even a Proxy, then you've got the connection to Tyche and a way for her to acquire that fallen portfolio. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 20 May 2020 : 22:21:12
I don't see it as being too much of a problem since other pieces of Tyche are referenced. An example of at least one other bit is on page 167 of Faiths & Avatars:
"Old tales tell that luck plays a crucial role in each person's life. When each new-born baby enters into the Realms, Tymora flips a coin formed from the remnants of the original goddess of luck, Tyche."
Plus, everyone involved in the split (Selune, Azuth, and Lathander) could have been too distracted to notice the birth of Waukeen. Waukeen may not even know where she came from and Llira would only know that she just found the godling and not know anything of her origin.
Now, having said that, she may have only been birthed as a demi-god. She COULD have been drawn to Athkalta because of the amount of commerce going on there and then built up a rep as one heck of a trader and that is what got her up to lesser power status by the current era. It was actuallly the goddess herself that started the Goldspires. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 20 May 2020 : 22:01:52
I would look at where waukeen temples are centred and her worship is strongest, that should give you a clue to where her worship began.
The netherese spread out across the north of faerun - the savage frontier, the moonsea, vaasa, nimbral, and halruaa. If waukeen has her worship centred in those regions (which she doesnt), then you could be confident in saying her church was first established there.
If waukeens church is strongest in calimshan, amn, tethyr, and the vilhon then she is likely of calishite / jhaamdath origin (those two pantheons merged before netheril rose).
If waukeens church is centred in the sword coast north and the western heartlands and rashemen, then she is of illuskan origin.
If she is vilhon, impiltur, damara, Serbia, cormyr, dalelands then she is jhaamdath in origin.
If it's a mixture of any of the above then chances are she arose during the diaspora as the pantheons mixed and people merged.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 May 2020 : 21:58:49
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Ok, I did some digging around and it is now my belief that Waukeen was part of Tyche. When Selune split Tyche into Tymora and Beshaba, a little bit of Tyche was sent hurdling across Olympus and that formed Waukeen. This new being was found by Llira, who helped the newly born goddess, which is why they are so close and why Waukeen would have trusted Llira enough to give Llira her divinity for safe keeping during the Time of Troubles. That would put her "birth" around 700 DR or so if I understand the references in Faiths & Avatars correctly.
I'm not aware of Tyche having any association with merchants... Hermes covered merchants, in the Greek pantheon.
According to her entry in Netheril: Empire of Magic, her portfolio included trade and traders (page 61 of the Winds of Netheril book).
Fair enough. 
I'd tweak it a bit, though... It's well-established that Tyche split in two. Adding a third into the mix causes some issues...
I'd tweak it a bit. Maybe Waukeen was a mortal, favored by -- perhaps even a Chosen or Proxy of -- Tyche. When Tyche split, most of her went into the Luck Twins, but some part went to Waukeen -- maybe enough to almost but not quite ascend. Lliira could have helped her ascend, though you'd need a reason why.
Alternatively, either the newly-born Tymora helped her, or maybe Waukeen was already a Proxy and the sliver of power she got from the split was enough to push her to the top. Lliira, herself a young deity*, bonded with this other divine newcomer, and the two became close friends -- maybe closer than TSR would have told us.
Note, though, that this latter idea requires Lliira to be pretty fresh to the divine scene. I've not the time at the moment to see how long she's been around.
Either way, given all the references to Tyche splitting in two, I think another angle for Waukeen's ascension is necessary. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 20 May 2020 : 21:27:13
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Ok, I did some digging around and it is now my belief that Waukeen was part of Tyche. When Selune split Tyche into Tymora and Beshaba, a little bit of Tyche was sent hurdling across Olympus and that formed Waukeen. This new being was found by Llira, who helped the newly born goddess, which is why they are so close and why Waukeen would have trusted Llira enough to give Llira her divinity for safe keeping during the Time of Troubles. That would put her "birth" around 700 DR or so if I understand the references in Faiths & Avatars correctly.
I'm not aware of Tyche having any association with merchants... Hermes covered merchants, in the Greek pantheon.
According to her entry in Netheril: Empire of Magic, her portfolio included trade and traders (page 61 of the Winds of Netheril book). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 May 2020 : 21:14:15
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Ok, I did some digging around and it is now my belief that Waukeen was part of Tyche. When Selune split Tyche into Tymora and Beshaba, a little bit of Tyche was sent hurdling across Olympus and that formed Waukeen. This new being was found by Llira, who helped the newly born goddess, which is why they are so close and why Waukeen would have trusted Llira enough to give Llira her divinity for safe keeping during the Time of Troubles. That would put her "birth" around 700 DR or so if I understand the references in Faiths & Avatars correctly.
I'm not aware of Tyche having any association with merchants... Hermes covered merchants, in the Greek pantheon. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 20 May 2020 : 18:59:50
Ok, I did some digging around and it is now my belief that Waukeen was part of Tyche. When Selune split Tyche into Tymora and Beshaba, a little bit of Tyche was sent hurdling across Olympus and that formed Waukeen. This new being was found by Llira, who helped the newly born goddess, which is why they are so close and why Waukeen would have trusted Llira enough to give Llira her divinity for safe keeping during the Time of Troubles. That would put her "birth" around 700 DR or so if I understand the references in Faiths & Avatars correctly. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 20 May 2020 : 18:00:47
Ed has said recently on several occasions that portfolios are a human construct to try and explain deific matters, they don't actually exist and are more propaganda on the part of priesthood. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 20 May 2020 : 17:07:47
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
So, back on topic, in the 13 years since this topic was created, no other information for Waukeen has been produced that has her point of origin? If not, how about a halfling god that was subsumed by humans? The Halflings snagged Tymora, why not have humans grab Waukeen?
WotC is not really in the business of providing lore, anymore. 
I think Waukeen has always been a human deity. Deities tend to cover things of cultural significance, and humans seems to be more about the gold than most other PC races.
I don't know, the easiest way to relaxation and a full stomach is a fist full of gold....
Otherwise, she is about trading, too, and none of the demi-human gods seem to deal with trade and they would have started trading with each other long before a significant portion of humanity was thinking beyond catching a rabbit for dinner. She may be human now but she may have started off as something different with the humans adding money to her portfolio later on. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 May 2020 : 16:40:18
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
So, back on topic, in the 13 years since this topic was created, no other information for Waukeen has been produced that has her point of origin? If not, how about a halfling god that was subsumed by humans? The Halflings snagged Tymora, why not have humans grab Waukeen?
WotC is not really in the business of providing lore, anymore.
I think Waukeen has always been a human deity. Deities tend to cover things of cultural significance, and humans seems to be more about the gold than most other PC races. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 20 May 2020 : 16:19:25
So, back on topic, in the 13 years since this topic was created, no other information for Waukeen has been produced that has her point of origin? If not, how about a halfling god that was subsumed by humans? The Halflings snagged Tymora, why not have humans grab Waukeen? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 19 May 2020 : 12:05:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So... we still don't have HOW she ascended, so I stand by my story from 13 years ago, excepting to note that she had a very odd clientele who had a fetish for being whipped by Laurel branches, and she had a fondness for very heavy, multi-layered, flowing robes, many decorated with stars and moons.
But more interestingly.... Boof the Moonpenguin? I think Seethyr's Penguinfolk just got a new god.
Boof the Moonpenguin got recast as an artifact called the Moonpenguin of Boof. It only appeared in the DC/TSR comics, as I recall, and the only mentioned power was that its eyes flashed when Waterdeep was in danger. I don't recall it having any other powers or mentions outside of the comics.
I think it was only in a couple of issues -- it appeared in the AD&D comic (the issue about the "Wager that saved Waterdeep!" IIRC), and I think it was mentioned once in the Forgotten Realms comic (when a drunken Dwalimar Omen and Elminster were discussing artifacts in the first or second issue of the Dragonreach Saga).
LOL, I need to look that up apparently. Man the stuff that gets done in the realms sometimes is amazing. In fact, the stuff that just generally happens in geekdom is pretty amazing. I started rewatching the Disney Gargoyles series on Disney+, and I was surprised to find one silly episode where some guy named "Vinnie" had a grudge against the gargoyles, spoke like Vinnie Barbarino, and had a "cream pie cannon" that he named Mr. Carter.... |
| AJA |
Posted - 19 May 2020 : 01:17:36
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't recall it having any other powers or mentions outside of the comics.
Ed (and Elminster and, presumably, Volo) confirm the existence of the Moonpenguin of Boof in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical (Artifacts of the Realms, p.95), and in a recent Tweet from Ed.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 May 2020 : 20:04:38
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So... we still don't have HOW she ascended, so I stand by my story from 13 years ago, excepting to note that she had a very odd clientele who had a fetish for being whipped by Laurel branches, and she had a fondness for very heavy, multi-layered, flowing robes, many decorated with stars and moons.
But more interestingly.... Boof the Moonpenguin? I think Seethyr's Penguinfolk just got a new god.
Boof the Moonpenguin got recast as an artifact called the Moonpenguin of Boof. It only appeared in the DC/TSR comics, as I recall, and the only mentioned power was that its eyes flashed when Waterdeep was in danger. I don't recall it having any other powers or mentions outside of the comics.
I think it was only in a couple of issues -- it appeared in the AD&D comic (the issue about the "Wager that saved Waterdeep!" IIRC), and I think it was mentioned once in the Forgotten Realms comic (when a drunken Dwalimar Omen and Elminster were discussing artifacts in the first or second issue of the Dragonreach Saga). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 18 May 2020 : 14:34:18
So... we still don't have HOW she ascended, so I stand by my story from 13 years ago, excepting to note that she had a very odd clientele who had a fetish for being whipped by Laurel branches, and she had a fondness for very heavy, multi-layered, flowing robes, many decorated with stars and moons.
But more interestingly.... Boof the Moonpenguin? I think Seethyr's Penguinfolk just got a new god. |
| The DMs Revenge |
Posted - 18 May 2020 : 14:13:09
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Are you referring to 'The Secret History of Waukeen' by Jeff Grubb?
Thread Necromancy, as Geocities is long dead, and I wanted to save other the effort of using https://archive.org/web/.
Here's the text from the original website:
quote:
The individual who noted that Waukeen may have been mine is correct. I think I've mentioned it at a couple talks, chats, or messages, but here is the story behind the origin of Waukeen and how she fit into the Realms.
Waukeen was created by one of my players for my scratchbuilt home campaign. While I had an organized, detailed godhead of 21 gods (which went over to form the Dragonlance pantheon), I had players who would rather worship their own deities. One was a priest who wanted to worship money. When told to described his deity, he chose the US Walking Liberty silver dollar. Walking Liberty soon shortened down to Waukeen (I know, its scary finding out where this stuff comes from), and the goddess of money has a spirited, if small band of followers. I added Waukeen to the master list of gods back in the original grey-box days because we had no merchant's god in the mix, and it seemed like they needed one, with Ed's encouragement, of course.
When we did the Time of Troubles, I put Waukeen on the block, both because she was originally mine, and I wanted to show that we were serious about reducing the number of gods in the pantheon (Yeah, we wanted to downsize the divinities, and ended up with more gods than ever). Waukeen went MIA, becoming the poster child for what happens when your god books and no one else picks up the slack. She stayed that way until Dale Donovan's For Duty and Diety.
Waukeen was not the only player-created deity worshipped by a small band that found its way into the Realms. The other was Boof the Moonpenguin (don't ask).
Jeff Grubb
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| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 10 Aug 2007 : 23:06:06
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Waukeen was a woman who was practicing "the world's oldest profession" <wink> <wink>. Some fool of a male uttered to her the phrase "women have the most expensive patch of real estate in the known world". This got her thinking, and suddenly she had a vision and she became the goddess of wealth.
 My life experience, as a woman, tells me that's true, even if a woman is not a prostitute (though I guess some very cynical men might say all women are?). |
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