| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 04:18:19
One of the things I hate about the Assassin PrC is its a spellcasting ablity (The 1st Edition Assasin didnt have Spellcasting and I cant recall Artemis Enteri ever casting spells)
So I was thinking do you reckon it would be a fair exchange if I dumped the Assassins spellcasting for uping the HD per level from a d6 to a d8? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 14:56:35
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
...would any of your pcs enter a profession and enjoy it? if not would they change.
I don't agree with this. Sometimes people really do take a job just for the money, not because they love doing it.
One of my Hooks featured a halfling who was captured, sold into slavery, and then magically bound by a powerful wizard. The wizard forced the halfling to be an assassin. After some time doing this, the halfling became inured to what he had become. When he finally got his freedom, he continued doing it, because it was what he had become. He took no pleasure in it, it was just all he had done for the past several years, and he couldn't see himself doing anything else.
So I find it utterly plausible that a person can be quite skilled at a particular profession, and still show no love at all for it. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 14:46:36
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
...would any of your pcs enter a profession and enjoy it? if not would they change.
I don't agree with this. Sometimes people really do take a job just for the money, not because they love doing it. |
| Calmar |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 14:03:29
quote:
I mean, a rogue takes up 5 levels in his class, then switches to assassin (in a normal campaign) and the next day he knows spells.
He could take a level as sorcerer or wizard instead and would get arcane spellcasting out of nowhere, as well... |
| Zanan |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 10:47:02
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
and in the realms assassins were the special bootlickers of Bhaal.
Not exactly. He was the god of murder and many assassins were obviously sending the odd prayer to him too. Which is not to say that all assassins had to be Bhaal worshippers or the like. IMHO, the links drawn between certain classes & professions and certain deities (because they cater to a certain portfolios) are often closer than what is reality. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 24 Jul 2008 : 10:38:17
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Just call him - or her - a "hired Killer" and you're good. 
or thug,hired sword, (insert weapon here)(insert gender pronoun here),enforcer, murderer...... etc
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
job of assassin: must enjoy killing people
assuming he told the truth, Entreri does not.
Where is it written that an assassin (and I mean the general word, not the PrC) must enjoy killing people? Nowhere, as far as I know.
true, afaik it isnt, but would any of your pcs enter a profession and enjoy it? if not would they change.
but being that I cant figure out how to explain it better, I will leave it at that |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 15:09:17
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
job of assassin: must enjoy killing people
assuming he told the truth, Entreri does not.
Where is it written that an assassin (and I mean the general word, not the PrC) must enjoy killing people? Nowhere, as far as I know. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 11:11:33
Just call him - or her - a "hired Killer" and you're good. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 10:58:13
and in the realms assassins were the special bootlickers of Bhaal.
far as i know, he did kiss the boot of bhaal., if he did, drizzt would killed him at the beck and call of tsr at the time of troubles and killed off bhaal's followers.
true it didnt, exist back 2nd. never stated it did either.
but mind you, If I ever play such a character, assassin is a word, along with murderer that I'd avoid.
(wonder about entreri's 4e classes will be) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 10:39:44
The term 'Hit man' didn't exist in the 'Ye Old Days', AFAIK.
Don't get D&D terminology mixed-up with RW definitions.
An assassin kills people for personal gain - be it money or religous 'brownie points'.
Just like I can have a character that is a rogue, without ever taking any levels in the Rogue class.
And Artemis is no more a D&D Assassin then Drizzt is a D&D Ranger. Except for some Drow abilities (that he SHOULDN'T have been able to use on the surface back then), he uses NO magic, and Guenhyvar is a Wonderous Object (albeit a special one), not a Ranger's pet.
Author's - most especially RAS - don't always play by the rules.  |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 10:02:26
the prerequirements: kill an innocent
he meets that
job of assassin: must enjoy killing people
assuming he told the truth, Entreri does not.
if entreri was an assassin with lvls in that prc, he would of had lvls in the kit from day one back in 2nd.
Im sorry, I just dont buy your argument.
a person who kills for money is one of the following, assassin, hit man or a murderer
assassins do it for religious or political reasons.
hit men do it for business and just business
a murder does it, becuase (s)he likes to make people squeal right before they die.
my paladin who kills the head zhent spy of a secret sect in cormyr would be considered an assassin, when it gets back the zhentil keep.
Amaplayin Possum who kills Ima Pooten becuase he has a price on his head, and a death sentence on his head in 12 different systems, is a hit man, nothing but buisness.
(note hit men dont have to be nice and friendly they can be cold as any assassin, and whether or not they enjoy their work is debateable)
Ima Pooten who kills becuase he is blackhearted, cold and caluclating, kills becuase he is psychotic and he enjoys his work.
entreri doesnt get any enjoyment out of it, he is cold enough though, just dont see him as an assassin |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Jul 2008 : 17:25:29
Yup - the Assassin PrC in D&D is supposed to represent a specific 'cult' of assassins, along the lines of the Thuggees (followers of kali). Another good example would be the group the very word comes from - the Hashshashin.
If you use it in your games, you *should* have some sort of background it is based in, and not just use the PrC as a stand-alone class (but then again, ALL PrCs should be handled that way).
But anyone who kills for money is most certainly an assassin. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Jul 2008 : 17:16:10
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
I have never seen or heard of Entreri casting a spell, but I hear that he was a rogue that killed for money not an assassin...
He is an assassin. To argue otherwise is to argue semantics.
Indeed. The most commonly accept definition of an assassin -- and certainly the one used in fantasy -- is someone who kills for money. In D&D, just about any character class could produce an assassin, though rogue is the most common one. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 22 Jul 2008 : 15:48:42
For the assassin PrC better sneak attack damage die or more effects from it is a good substitute for the spells IMO |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 22 Jul 2008 : 15:27:46
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
I have never seen or heard of Entreri casting a spell, but I hear that he was a rogue that killed for money not an assassin...
He is an assassin. To argue otherwise is to argue semantics. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 22 Jul 2008 : 10:22:26
I have never seen or heard of Entreri casting a spell, but I hear that he was a rogue that killed for money not an assassin, so per say his 3.x write up has only 1 lvl of assassin in it, i cant say, especially when the one lvl of shadowdancer would have done better, well he was adept you see at sneaking up on people, especially that were-rat.
drop the spellcasting for the hit die.
but then, mind you I dont like or care for prcs that have their own spell list, they should have a +1 spellcaster lvl, if you already are playing a caster.
this does include the blackguard as well.
for that matter I have never seen Drizzt cast a spell either, nor Dove, well ranger spells anyway. |
| Dracons |
Posted - 22 Jul 2008 : 01:32:00
I've never used the assassin PrC. If I want an assassin, I make a NPC and call it one. (Mostly Rogue, but alot of times with fighter levels).
I once had a barbarian one. His method was.
Find Target.
Attack Target.
Flee.
No sneaking around for him, and that 40 feet help him get out of the town. |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 19 Jul 2008 : 05:14:25
I only used assasins as NPCs. As NPCs they could do anything I wanted them to do. They were generally warriors, with some rogue abilities, rogues, or wizards.
I'd also let PCs of any class spend time to learn basic rogue abilities at first level, like move silenlty (if they didn't wear metal armor), pick locks...etc, depending on their alignment. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 21:29:16
Obviously, everyone who gets paid for a killer's job can be an assassin. The class, as I see it, are specially trained killers in a fantasy setting. And most decent fantasy settings, such as the Realms, the Realms, or the Realms, have magic aplenty. Getting in, bypassing magic traps or subduing targetted spellcasters does require more than mundane (or semi-mundane/arcane) abilities. HEnce, including spells will not hurt much, especially NPC-assassins. |
| AlorinDawn |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 18:31:23
While I haven't read all the abovev replies, so I may be repeating someone...One of the first few issues of Kobold Quarterly and a 20 lvl Assassin class detailed and I don't remember any spell casting. Perhaps you should check it out. |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 18:20:30
I created a non-spellcasting assassin PrC at one time (and I psionic-wielding one too), but I am not sure where I put it. I also built an assassin base class that was basically the rogue with a couple of features taken out and the assassin feature put in (but now spellcasting; basically a kit in 2e terms). Also, the only alignment-based prerequisite I put on assassins is any non-good. I think it silly that various non-good neutral alignments cannot be assassins. Would anyone be interested in seeing my PrC(s) and class if I could find them? |
| Aulduron |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 18:12:36
I never liked assasins as a class. I took them out of my campaigns. |
| Tera_Zyne |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 16:57:36
I agree with lossing the magic casting abilitys for a higher hit die unless they have past experiece in spell casting.
But other classes can pick up assassin too, multiclassing with rouge befor taking assassin is a pretty good idea I think. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 02 Jul 2007 : 22:05:45
You know, I completely forgot about this until I was thumbing through this today, but I forgot that Dragon Magazine 312 had an article by Wil Upchurch (no stranger to the Realm) that had three variant assassin PrCs in it, and nary a spellcaster in the bunch. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 19:30:28
I can picture quite a few evil wizards being part of an assassin's guild, casting divinations and slaying spells and summonings from a distance . . . but then again, I got used to all of that from the Fafhrd and Mouser books. |
| scererar |
Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 18:56:43
I always run my rogues, split with a spellcasting class of some sort. And I agree, assasins don't need the PRC. |
| bitter thorn |
Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 18:18:18
I would have to agree that there are plenty of great assassin builds that don't have or need the Assassin PrC. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 15 Jun 2007 : 23:10:09
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
The rogue class makes up all the rest of the realms assassins.
Or, anyone of any class who's effective at killing people in secret. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 15 Jun 2007 : 17:48:41
I tend to agree with the assassin class having spellcasting. When you look at the list of spells they all fit for a elusive guildassassin. Especially considering they have to target spellcasting adversaries, or poeple with lots of security. I guess if a different nonspellcasting assassin guild arrives in town it gets raided by the true spellcasting assassins guild.
The rogue class makes up all the rest of the realms assassins. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 15 Jun 2007 : 10:29:07
Obviously, if you chop the spellcasting and rework the assassin, one should remind oneself that the Realms' assassins have a difficult time permanently slaying someone, especially adventure party members, rich people et al. So some special stuff should be included there (e.g. a barghest bite or that spell having a similar effect). |
| MerrikCale |
Posted - 15 Jun 2007 : 04:26:58
I will always prefer the non-spell casting assassin for 1e. I don't dislike it being a PrC per se, but its current set up is lame |
