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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 04:18:19
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One of the things I hate about the Assassin PrC is its a spellcasting ablity (The 1st Edition Assasin didnt have Spellcasting and I cant recall Artemis Enteri ever casting spells)
So I was thinking do you reckon it would be a fair exchange if I dumped the Assassins spellcasting for uping the HD per level from a d6 to a d8?
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 11:20:17
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Spellcasting "out of nothing" tends to be somewhat strange. I mean, a rogue takes up 5 levels in his class, then switches to assassin (in a normal campaign) and the next day he knows spells. If he was a divine caster, no problem. As he is an arcane one, it should at least involve some training. That is "flair" though. I'd always demand some sort of background magic-dabbling by anyone who takes up such classes ... or let them touch some item of power et al.
The average 1 HP is IMHO not enough to substitute the spellcasting. Not wanting to add too much though, I'd buff the skill points per level to 6 instead of 4 as well.
IMHO, the assassin much like the ninja could be a class in itself. |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1075 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 11:37:25
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I totally agree with you Dargoth, and another thing I don’t like about this class is that it is too weak.
Back in the old days when we played second edition players were terrified of the (thief) assassin the poison were Dangerous (save ore die) and the sap and garoth were tolls that could take any character out easy.
Today when my players hear of a assassin they just say: let us take him out as if it was another monster.
I really like the idea´r about removing his spells and give him 1d8 instead of 1d6(sneak attack).
Another thing is that to many strange classes have use poison as a class ability, and evry time there is a new book out, you can find a new prestige class better, stronger then all the other books on the market.
Ohh I miss the old day’s when there was a reason to fear an assassin.
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Edited by - Victor_ograygor on 13 Jun 2007 11:39:07 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 23:31:22
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| Good point--I never understood the rationale behind having assassins be minor spellcasters. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2007 : 02:05:30
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Anybody got War of the Lance? (A dragonlance source book)
Apparently theres a Non spell casting Asssassin Prc in it also
Also Ronin publishing have a PDF with an Assassin class that doesnt have any spell vasting
Do any scribes own either of them? |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2007 : 04:50:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Anybody got War of the Lance? (A dragonlance source book)
Apparently theres a Non spell casting Asssassin Prc in it also
Also Ronin publishing have a PDF with an Assassin class that doesnt have any spell vasting
Do any scribes own either of them?
The Assassin's Handbook by Green Ronin has the assassin base class. Average Bab, good reflex saves, and weak sneak attack (maxes out at 3d6). It has limited spellcasting, but it does make the assassin a bit more deadly with the killing blow class ability and you get bonus feats. Basically, once per day the assassin can deliver a coup de grace as a standard action to any character he could sneak attack (flat footed, flanking, etc) it provokes an AoO at lower levels and you have to roll to hit. |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2007 : 07:33:56
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I guess it depends on the type of mythos you place around an assassin. I mean technically an assassin needs no class or PrC, as anyone who kills on an occupational/contractual basis can be considered an assassin (as Dargoth points out look at Artemis, a fighter/thief).
But in older Asian mythos Chinese vagabonds and Japanese ninjas were seen as having mystical/supernatural powers. (This has been strongly reinforced in more modern ninja representations in Japanese films, anime and manga). And I think some of that mysticism may be bleeding over. I mean look at the monk class. I for one have never really pictured European style monastic orders as being masters of unarmed combat. Masters of the fermented grape, sure… 
Personally, I tend to prefer the idea of non-spellcasting assassins (akin to the old Unearthed Arcana class), but I can also see the feasibility of an assassins guild that trains its members in with some magic to augment their abilities particularly in a magic dense campaign like the Realms, but this comes reflected in the text at a cost to other abilities in deference to that great leveling term (game balance).
So I guess it really comes down to a choice of being a generalist jack of all trades assassin or a specialist (i.e. weapon master, poison master, or stealth master, etc).
The problem with the assassin PrC is that it simply sets them up as a cookie cutter that lacks any mystery (thus leading to reactions such as those presented by Victor's players) or, as in the case of the old Assassin class a sense of being deadly. So for me I think an assassin needs to be more 'signature' in nature and less a function of a class. Think of the old James Bond henchman from the Connery and Roger Moore era. They usually had a signature style, weapon, personality, etc... For my campaigns I would try to infuse this same sense of mystery/infamy into assassin characters. If you need waves of thugs to assault pcs then I think that a Theif template works just fine, because arguably most skilled assassins would want to work alone (or possibly with a single partner).
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2007 : 10:01:40
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| Well, the spellcasting issue is not that difficult to explain: distract, silence, get in and out, slay et al. As I said, no problem at all and it really makes sense. But the assassin is mainly an NPC-PrC and as such, you'd expect that an assassin's guild trains its members in those spells (if they have the intelligence). Thus, in-game, I would require a would-be assassin player to study for those spellcasting ability as well ... maybe 3 to 6 month or something. |
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Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2007 : 02:17:23
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I don't mind some guilds and orders of assasins having access to spells, but perhaps another class that had access to the "death attack" that didn't have spellcasting as well. Then again, I wouldn't mind seeing that as a 20 level class either.
Oh, and Dargoth, I couldn't find any PrC that matched that description in any DragonLance books. |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2007 : 04:26:58
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| I will always prefer the non-spell casting assassin for 1e. I don't dislike it being a PrC per se, but its current set up is lame |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2007 : 10:29:07
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| Obviously, if you chop the spellcasting and rework the assassin, one should remind oneself that the Realms' assassins have a difficult time permanently slaying someone, especially adventure party members, rich people et al. So some special stuff should be included there (e.g. a barghest bite or that spell having a similar effect). |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2007 : 17:48:41
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I tend to agree with the assassin class having spellcasting. When you look at the list of spells they all fit for a elusive guildassassin. Especially considering they have to target spellcasting adversaries, or poeple with lots of security. I guess if a different nonspellcasting assassin guild arrives in town it gets raided by the true spellcasting assassins guild.
The rogue class makes up all the rest of the realms assassins. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2007 : 23:10:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
The rogue class makes up all the rest of the realms assassins.
Or, anyone of any class who's effective at killing people in secret.  |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 18:18:18
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| I would have to agree that there are plenty of great assassin builds that don't have or need the Assassin PrC. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 18:56:43
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| I always run my rogues, split with a spellcasting class of some sort. And I agree, assasins don't need the PRC. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 19:30:28
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| I can picture quite a few evil wizards being part of an assassin's guild, casting divinations and slaying spells and summonings from a distance . . . but then again, I got used to all of that from the Fafhrd and Mouser books. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2007 : 22:05:45
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| You know, I completely forgot about this until I was thumbing through this today, but I forgot that Dragon Magazine 312 had an article by Wil Upchurch (no stranger to the Realm) that had three variant assassin PrCs in it, and nary a spellcaster in the bunch. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 02 Jul 2007 22:28:05 |
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Tera_Zyne
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 16:57:36
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I agree with lossing the magic casting abilitys for a higher hit die unless they have past experiece in spell casting.
But other classes can pick up assassin too, multiclassing with rouge befor taking assassin is a pretty good idea I think. |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 18:12:36
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| I never liked assasins as a class. I took them out of my campaigns. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 18:20:30
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| I created a non-spellcasting assassin PrC at one time (and I psionic-wielding one too), but I am not sure where I put it. I also built an assassin base class that was basically the rogue with a couple of features taken out and the assassin feature put in (but now spellcasting; basically a kit in 2e terms). Also, the only alignment-based prerequisite I put on assassins is any non-good. I think it silly that various non-good neutral alignments cannot be assassins. Would anyone be interested in seeing my PrC(s) and class if I could find them? |
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Edited by - Hawkins on 18 Jul 2008 18:21:53 |
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AlorinDawn
Learned Scribe
USA
313 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 18:31:23
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| While I haven't read all the abovev replies, so I may be repeating someone...One of the first few issues of Kobold Quarterly and a 20 lvl Assassin class detailed and I don't remember any spell casting. Perhaps you should check it out. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2008 : 21:29:16
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| Obviously, everyone who gets paid for a killer's job can be an assassin. The class, as I see it, are specially trained killers in a fantasy setting. And most decent fantasy settings, such as the Realms, the Realms, or the Realms, have magic aplenty. Getting in, bypassing magic traps or subduing targetted spellcasters does require more than mundane (or semi-mundane/arcane) abilities. HEnce, including spells will not hurt much, especially NPC-assassins. |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2008 : 05:14:25
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I only used assasins as NPCs. As NPCs they could do anything I wanted them to do. They were generally warriors, with some rogue abilities, rogues, or wizards.
I'd also let PCs of any class spend time to learn basic rogue abilities at first level, like move silenlty (if they didn't wear metal armor), pick locks...etc, depending on their alignment. |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2008 : 01:32:00
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I've never used the assassin PrC. If I want an assassin, I make a NPC and call it one. (Mostly Rogue, but alot of times with fighter levels).
I once had a barbarian one. His method was.
Find Target.
Attack Target.
Flee.
No sneaking around for him, and that 40 feet help him get out of the town. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2008 : 10:22:26
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I have never seen or heard of Entreri casting a spell, but I hear that he was a rogue that killed for money not an assassin, so per say his 3.x write up has only 1 lvl of assassin in it, i cant say, especially when the one lvl of shadowdancer would have done better, well he was adept you see at sneaking up on people, especially that were-rat.
drop the spellcasting for the hit die.
but then, mind you I dont like or care for prcs that have their own spell list, they should have a +1 spellcaster lvl, if you already are playing a caster.
this does include the blackguard as well.
for that matter I have never seen Drizzt cast a spell either, nor Dove, well ranger spells anyway. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2008 : 15:27:46
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
I have never seen or heard of Entreri casting a spell, but I hear that he was a rogue that killed for money not an assassin...
He is an assassin. To argue otherwise is to argue semantics. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2008 : 15:48:42
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| For the assassin PrC better sneak attack damage die or more effects from it is a good substitute for the spells IMO |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2008 : 17:16:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
I have never seen or heard of Entreri casting a spell, but I hear that he was a rogue that killed for money not an assassin...
He is an assassin. To argue otherwise is to argue semantics.
Indeed. The most commonly accept definition of an assassin -- and certainly the one used in fantasy -- is someone who kills for money. In D&D, just about any character class could produce an assassin, though rogue is the most common one. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2008 : 17:25:29
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Yup - the Assassin PrC in D&D is supposed to represent a specific 'cult' of assassins, along the lines of the Thuggees (followers of kali). Another good example would be the group the very word comes from - the Hashshashin.
If you use it in your games, you *should* have some sort of background it is based in, and not just use the PrC as a stand-alone class (but then again, ALL PrCs should be handled that way).
But anyone who kills for money is most certainly an assassin.  |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 10:02:26
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the prerequirements: kill an innocent
he meets that
job of assassin: must enjoy killing people
assuming he told the truth, Entreri does not.
if entreri was an assassin with lvls in that prc, he would of had lvls in the kit from day one back in 2nd.
Im sorry, I just dont buy your argument.
a person who kills for money is one of the following, assassin, hit man or a murderer
assassins do it for religious or political reasons.
hit men do it for business and just business
a murder does it, becuase (s)he likes to make people squeal right before they die.
my paladin who kills the head zhent spy of a secret sect in cormyr would be considered an assassin, when it gets back the zhentil keep.
Amaplayin Possum who kills Ima Pooten becuase he has a price on his head, and a death sentence on his head in 12 different systems, is a hit man, nothing but buisness.
(note hit men dont have to be nice and friendly they can be cold as any assassin, and whether or not they enjoy their work is debateable)
Ima Pooten who kills becuase he is blackhearted, cold and caluclating, kills becuase he is psychotic and he enjoys his work.
entreri doesnt get any enjoyment out of it, he is cold enough though, just dont see him as an assassin |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 10:39:44
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The term 'Hit man' didn't exist in the 'Ye Old Days', AFAIK.
Don't get D&D terminology mixed-up with RW definitions.
An assassin kills people for personal gain - be it money or religous 'brownie points'.
Just like I can have a character that is a rogue, without ever taking any levels in the Rogue class.
And Artemis is no more a D&D Assassin then Drizzt is a D&D Ranger. Except for some Drow abilities (that he SHOULDN'T have been able to use on the surface back then), he uses NO magic, and Guenhyvar is a Wonderous Object (albeit a special one), not a Ranger's pet.
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Hate Spellcasting Assasins
