| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| ShadowJack |
Posted - 13 Nov 2006 : 16:38:39
Sages,
This may not be the best place to put this, please feel free to move it.
Do you older gamers out there (you know who you are)remember the infamous 60 minutes episode where they linked D & D with suicide, homicide, occultism, satan worship, and I believe hunger in Africa? After viewing this very informative episode my father torched all of my gaming materials... I want to cite this episode as an example in a small paper, do any of you remember when this episode aired? I know I have seen it appear on boards before so I hope you can help me. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 30 Dec 2006 : 00:22:25
Victor :)
Near as I can tell, we don't fundamentally disagree. I'm actually not saying teenagers or children shouldn't play the game! I'm just saying that it would be reasonable for a parent to have concerns about some kids (probably a small minority) handling the darker side of it. However, having said that, if the game is handled properly by a thoughtful DM, playing D&D could be a wonderful experience for a youngster. In fact I would say to anyone who was worried about such things that the DM can design a module that presents situations that can actually teach some very important virtues. But anyway, my main point was that because a few youngsters out there might not be able to handle playing the game, that's no reason for the game should be adjusted in any way. The game should always be designed for healthy adults to play is all I'm really saying. If kids play it, that's fine--that's up to their parents. I just don't want how a kid *might* negatively react to the game dictating its conceptual design. |
| Penknight |
Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 23:38:40
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
PenKnight,
Thanks for posting that article! It will be very useful in the future.
Hey, I'm just glad I could help out. Best of luck, everyone.  |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 12:47:41
Penknight I added you’re article at the link thread here at Candlekeep thanks for the link.
Back to you Lemernis.
First there are many ways to role play.
If children play’s commoners in forgotten realms “ lives in Scardale, work to get something to eat, finding a wife and buying a goat “ getting friends. You can still keep it low, non violent for children below 12.
For children over 12 years old they play video games at home, and if you think that role playing heroes in forgotten realms is more dangerous than playing computer games. Ahh I just don’t agre with you. As pointed out earlier in this thread I have talked with may different kinds of people about children role playing, and of cause some only see the bad things in it.
Yes I agree with you that only professionals should role play with children under 12.
Senior Scribe : Victor_ograygor. The only assassin in candlekeep. lol
|
| ShadowJack |
Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 12:24:00
PenKnight,
Thanks for posting that article! It will be very useful in the future. |
| Penknight |
Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 12:05:23
I just wanted to post something that I recommend people read that give me "that look" after they find out I play D&D, and here it is...
http://www.trhickman.com/Intel/Essays/Ethic1.html
I hope it helps to have this here too. After all, how can you disagree with Tracy Hickman? |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 11:55:09
Hi there Victor,
I'm referring to minors, those under the age of 18. I'm simply validating the concerns that some parents, eductators, psychologists, etc., can reasonably assert about children roleplaying anti-social traits that are exhibited by evil characters in a fantasy setting. I'm not at all saying that all adolesecents, and even children (age 12 and under) aren't capable of maturely handling that material. Whether they can or not is ultimately up to the parent, just as what they will be allowed to watch on television, what video games they're allowed to play, and so forth. My main point is that the game should be conceived for play by adults, who presumably are well adjusted and have healthy functioning egos. Simply because some impressionable children/adolescents (again some, not all) who aren't sufficiently mature to handle the content might play it, would be a very poor reason to ban the game.
I'm from the U.S. |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 06:25:28
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
I regard D&D as a game designed for healthy, well adjusted adults. I don't think it is appropriate that it be geared toward children or adolescents. No doubt there are always going to be some kids mature enough to play it. But the target audience should be the adult, not the child.
This game started as a phenomenon on U.S. college campuses in the mid 70's, when a humble game designer came up with a system to use dice and people's imaginations to "adventure" in fantasy worlds derived (pretty transparently) from Tolkien's Middle-earth. Tolkien's books were being 'discovered' at the time by that generation, and were beloved by many. It's a great idea for a game. For people to grant it any more power than that is silly.
The roleplaying of evil for impressionable youngsters is understandably worrisome to some. But so often anything teens can do to be rebel and test limits with their parents and the broader adult world of authority, they will. That's always going to be there.
Society is doing things arse-backwards if it is constantly conforming itself--even contorting itself--to the needs of children rather than adults. That's craziness. On the contrary, developmentally speaking, what is healthiest is for children to learn how to adapt amd conform appropriately to the adult world--and if society isn't teaching them that, frankly, it is failing them. (Imvho ;))
I've never been a great fan of Carl Jung's thought, because its theraputic applications seem questionable. But I do think the school of thought Jung started does make some intelligent and at least thought-provoking observations about how the human psyche might tend to work with respect to the imagination, as we find it expressed in religion, legend, myth, and the fantasy entertainment genre. Apart from D&D simply being wonderful recreation, I think it can actually be a healthy interest if explored from a Jungian viewpoint.
Where I do think it may become unhealthy is that for certain types its immersiveness probably ends up keeping people from giving fuller attention other important areas of life. But honestly, this can be equally true of avid golfers, sports fans (who do nothing but catch up on recorded games on TV), hunters, fishermen, musicians, etc. Some personalities are drawn to a kind of tunnel vision experience regardless of what their avocation is. And it takes a certain effort for them to keep that pastime in proper perspective in their life.
What age category are you referring to when you are talking about children? 
I work with children and play D&D with them, and I can’t see anything wrong about it. I work with many different kinds of people and they all say that its a god tool for children to understand the world around them!
Were are you from ?
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Dec 2006 : 05:37:39
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Ah, Stackpole. Not only does he write damn good Star Wars books, but he also defended D&D against what could be described as a hysterical bunch of overzealous paladins(yes, I've recently reread Thornhold, so I`m feeling a bit anti-paladin right now )
Not just Star Wars novels... He also wrote just about all of my favorite BattleTech novels (BT was my intro to Stackpole), and he's written more than a few non-shared world books of his own. |
| khorne |
Posted - 28 Dec 2006 : 21:49:39
quote:
Originally posted by Mkhaiwati
okay, a few more.
I saw Michael Stackpole talk at a recent convention here, and he said quite a lot of things, most of which I don't remember well enough to post with any accuracy. One thing that stuck out in my mind was that in the big cases , Pulling and Egbert, the sons had a lot of emotional problems that existed outside the game. In fact, the accusations against D&D were started by parents wanting to blame something else, not themselves.
Egbert, if I recall correctly, was homosexual in a time it was not accepted at all, and he had made contact with the local "underground" gay society at the college he was going to. He was a genius, in that he was going to college at the age of 16 (I think, I know he was really young), away from home, didn't know anyone, and was a loner to begin with. So when he disappeared into the steam tunnels to commit suicide, and then later showed up at a professor's house (who was also gay), the family did not want to acknowledge this and jumped on the anti-D&D campaign.
Some links:
The Pulling Report by Michael Stackpole http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html
Interview with Michael Stackpole
http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/539/539635p1.html
Ah, Stackpole. Not only does he write damn good Star Wars books, but he also defended D&D against what could be described as a hysterical bunch of overzealous paladins(yes, I've recently reread Thornhold, so I`m feeling a bit anti-paladin right now) |
| Korginard |
Posted - 28 Dec 2006 : 18:48:07
I just consider myself lucky that my parents trusted me and were open enough not to indulge in all the hysteria. In fact, it was my Mother who gave me my first Players Handbook and Dungeon Masters Guide for Christmas. She really didn't know much about it other than it was fantasy and that my older brother played it with some friends.
I do agree with the maturity concept, as I didn't actualy play much until I was a little older. (My brothers DM delighted in watching me blow my first trial character up by lighting a torch in a dark "funny-smelling" room.. But HEY! they let me play for a little bit at least!)
For the most part when I was that young I just enjoyed reading the stuff and letting my imagination soar with it. I still to this day love to buy a good RPG product and let my imagination run wild, weither it's ever used in a game or not!
Thanks Mom!!!!! |
| ShadowJack |
Posted - 28 Dec 2006 : 15:47:16
Lemernis,
Hear, Hear! Very succinct and well-spoken. I agree. |
| Lemernis |
Posted - 28 Dec 2006 : 14:40:05
I regard D&D as a game designed for healthy, well adjusted adults. I don't think it is appropriate that it be geared toward children or adolescents. No doubt there are always going to be some kids mature enough to play it. But the target audience should be the adult, not the child.
This game started as a phenomenon on U.S. college campuses in the mid 70's, when a humble game designer came up with a system to use dice and people's imaginations to "adventure" in fantasy worlds derived (pretty transparently) from Tolkien's Middle-earth. Tolkien's books were being 'discovered' at the time by that generation, and were beloved by many. It's a great idea for a game. For people to grant it any more power than that is silly.
The roleplaying of evil for impressionable youngsters is understandably worrisome to some. But so often anything teens can do to be rebel and test limits with their parents and the broader adult world of authority, they will. That's always going to be there.
Society is doing things arse-backwards if it is constantly conforming itself--even contorting itself--to the needs of children rather than adults. That's craziness. On the contrary, developmentally speaking, what is healthiest is for children to learn how to adapt amd conform appropriately to the adult world--and if society isn't teaching them that, frankly, it is failing them. (Imvho ;))
I've never been a great fan of Carl Jung's thought, because its theraputic applications seem questionable. But I do think the school of thought Jung started does make some intelligent and at least thought-provoking observations about how the human psyche might tend to work with respect to the imagination, as we find it expressed in religion, legend, myth, and the fantasy entertainment genre. Apart from D&D simply being wonderful recreation, I think it can actually be a healthy interest if explored from a Jungian viewpoint.
Where I do think it may become unhealthy is that for certain types its immersiveness probably ends up keeping people from giving fuller attention other important areas of life. But honestly, this can be equally true of avid golfers, sports fans (who do nothing but catch up on recorded games on TV), hunters, fishermen, musicians, etc. Some personalities are drawn to a kind of tunnel vision experience regardless of what their avocation is. And it takes a certain effort for them to keep that pastime in proper perspective in their life. |
| ShadowJack |
Posted - 27 Dec 2006 : 14:04:56
Thanks Victor! That is VERY intersting. It is amazing how many wrong and weird ideas people have about D&D and role-playing in general... |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 27 Dec 2006 : 11:32:34
I just what you to see this (Are D&D players out of touch with reality)
Army frowns on Dungeons and Dragons
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3052074,00.html
Israeli Army Hates D&D
http://blog.wired.com/tableofmalcontents/2006/12/israeli_army_ha.html |
| ShadowJack |
Posted - 24 Nov 2006 : 12:34:35
Thanks Victor and Eytan, both of your submissions were great! |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 23 Nov 2006 : 22:05:40
I wrote a cover article for the January 2004 issue of the Silven Trumpeter called BAFOON (Bothered About Fundamentalists Offering Opinionated Nonsense). The title is an allusion to MADD (Mothers Against Dungeons & Dragons). These groups tended to use all sorts of ridiculous acronyms. Anyway, you can download it at http://www.silven.com/ezine/. It's on page 21 and it discusses the history of the problem and some of my thoughts. |
| Zimme |
Posted - 23 Nov 2006 : 21:11:32
ha ha lol, good one. that canadian one really cracked me up :P |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 23 Nov 2006 : 20:09:36
I did see somthing on the net, i dont know if you can use this.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6127129675412115346&q=D%26D |
| Zimme |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 11:58:25
you are right, it develops the creative and interactional skills, plus for us who dont have english as a native language it develops just that. |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 17:50:28
It´s ok Zimme... we have all bin there......... lol
Best advice : wright on another topic.
Just to end my opinion on this topic : I think that roleplaying games, are one of the best ways of learn and understand.. One of the bigest (newest) theories (sociology)-"quote : In the future comunity its impotent to know ho you are, ho you engage, this can be learnd thrug roleplaying. (The 3 ways reflektion / meaning / realtion " - This is said in the book. The learning comunity by Lars Qvortrup.
Sorry about all this, maby it´s off topic, but i just want to say that new psychology and sociology theories say that roleplaying isnt nessasary a bad thing. |
| Mkhaiwati |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 17:30:10
okay, a few more.
I saw Michael Stackpole talk at a recent convention here, and he said quite a lot of things, most of which I don't remember well enough to post with any accuracy. One thing that stuck out in my mind was that in the big cases , Pulling and Egbert, the sons had a lot of emotional problems that existed outside the game. In fact, the accusations against D&D were started by parents wanting to blame something else, not themselves.
Egbert, if I recall correctly, was homosexual in a time it was not accepted at all, and he had made contact with the local "underground" gay society at the college he was going to. He was a genius, in that he was going to college at the age of 16 (I think, I know he was really young), away from home, didn't know anyone, and was a loner to begin with. So when he disappeared into the steam tunnels to commit suicide, and then later showed up at a professor's house (who was also gay), the family did not want to acknowledge this and jumped on the anti-D&D campaign.
Some links:
The Pulling Report by Michael Stackpole http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html
Interview with Michael Stackpole
http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/539/539635p1.html |
| Zimme |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 12:38:03
Sure sure, my fuse burned a litte quick there! ;) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 12:09:41
Just a friendly mod reminder fellow scribes... let's try and keep such an "explosive" topic clean and civil.
|
| Zimme |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 11:06:33
I do belive that the belief that roleplaying games are evil, is issued by people who have emty lives.... Imagine a person that without knowedge of the game begins to spout nonsence, just so he/she can say 'im doing something constructive to help our socity', and at the same time have something to do..... come on... then you gotta be desperate! And that woman who lost her son is just lashing out, trying to find something to justify the senseless death of her son, and woila there is D&d ...very convinient. Seems to me that our game is a scapegoat for all kinds of ****, and it makes me mad to think that people cant see through all the ********! Its like the saying that guns dont kill people, people kill people. I will now stop my raving, and get back to sensible matters..... such as writing another post. =)
Mod Edit: Please watch your language. 
|
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 10:43:48
I know that RPG is a somewhat controversial topic but I never knew about those incidents.
Do I have strange, evil, mad, aggressive and/or destructive thoughts?
Well, yeeeehaaa yes indeed!    Sometimes I do, but they are not routed in my long lasting love for RPGs than rather a reaction of stupid idiots sharing their (to me) certainly strange and mad points of view with others in local/national/worldwide broadcasting television shows. So much for that.
Nevertheless interesting to read. |
| Marc |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 09:35:33
In my country one guy killed two people by stabbing them just to get a feel of a game, now he's for 50 years in jail. But its foolish to say that DnD caused this. And then someone started anti DnD campaign in the media for 1 madman that would have done it anyway. Of course in the media there aren't any antiwar campaigns or campaigns against things that really have evil influence on the society. DnD is not evil (even Ravenloft) it's just a nonsentient game, and all kinds of people can play it, even evil madmen |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 09:19:01
Yeaar we know Sian... but it´s a good question, it made me think.... |
| Sian |
Posted - 14 Nov 2006 : 08:31:23
i was sacastic for chirsts sake ... sigh ... |
| Romaal |
Posted - 13 Nov 2006 : 23:09:57
By the way, telling tales of the tainted youth isn't a modern thing. Maybe some of you already know the scrbings of Socrates in which he speaks about the bad youth and that the world will fade away and so on. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 13 Nov 2006 : 23:07:05
Didn't start with TV. Whether you're scapegoating RPGs, rock & roll, jazz, the theatre, magic, the undeserving poor, other races, other races' drugs or culture, women, 'penny dreadfuls'... it's all blaming (fantasies of) other people and what they do for your own problems.quote:
Originally posted by Romaal
In Germany, the majority of the population doesn't even know what roleplaying is. Good for us folks :)
I think the same is true worldwide: a majority of Americans may have heard of D&D, but they couldn't describe how you play. It's no good thing, and it makes RPGs easier to scapegoat as people don't know better. |
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