| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Nokom |
Posted - 01 Sep 2006 : 15:24:45
I know that lolth is also in greyhawk. I am not sure but I think some others are in dl and gh too. But are they the same gods? Or are they simply the same name? |
| 12 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 05 Sep 2006 : 15:37:35
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
But since Lolth is a multispherical deity, the two Lolths are still technically the same being. It even says it in F&P, different aspects who don't affect each other, but still same being.
Yes, but that was changed thanks to PGtF. And with lore contained in newer sourcebooks overriding those of old, what PGtF says is more in line with how we should consider Lolth and her status in the FR cosmology, now. What F&P states about Lolth being the same being no longer has any relevance.
ok, I have a question...then can we assume with the "lolth ret-con" due to the planar cosmology change that the other multi-sphere/multi-world gods in the Realms are unique "Realmsian" versions of the "real" powers i.e. Tyr, Silvanus, Oghma, Mielikki, Lovitar, Tymora/Beshaba/Tyche?
All FR deities that have representation on other worlds or in other cosmologies besides the FR cosmology are no longer the same beings. They are now, completely separate and specifically just Realms-based deities with no connection to like-named beings or deities in other cosmologies.
My Planar Explanation section in the Candlekeep Code of Conduct explains this in more depth. See the URL in my sig.
|
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 05 Sep 2006 : 14:17:22
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
But since Lolth is a multispherical deity, the two Lolths are still technically the same being. It even says it in F&P, different aspects who don't affect each other, but still same being.
Yes, but that was changed thanks to PGtF. And with lore contained in newer sourcebooks overriding those of old, what PGtF says is more in line with how we should consider Lolth and her status in the FR cosmology, now. What F&P states about Lolth being the same being no longer has any relevance.
ok, I have a question...then can we assume with the "lolth ret-con" due to the planar cosmology change that the other multi-sphere/multi-world gods in the Realms are unique "Realmsian" versions of the "real" powers i.e. Tyr, Silvanus, Oghma, Mielikki, Lovitar, Tymora/Beshaba/Tyche? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 01:37:24
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
But since Lolth is a multispherical deity, the two Lolths are still technically the same being. It even says it in F&P, different aspects who don't affect each other, but still same being.
Yes, but that was changed thanks to PGtF. And with lore contained in newer sourcebooks overriding those of old, what PGtF says is more in line with how we should consider Lolth and her status in the FR cosmology, now. What F&P states about Lolth being the same being no longer has any relevance.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 01:31:29
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Furthermore, read the Manual of the Planes FAQ where it clearly states that FR's planes, and the planar beings of the new cosmology, have never been the Wheel/Ring. This if further expanded on in the Player's Guide, page 139, where it clearly states that FR's planes are not the standard planes of the D&D cosmology.
Actually, I've got to remember to add the MotP reference to the Planar Section of the Candlekeep Guide to Forgotten Realms FAQ.
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 03 Sep 2006 : 23:59:59
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
The GH Lolth and the FR Lolth are one and the same. But the two beings are different aspects of Lolth that don't really affect one another.
The introduction to Faiths and Pantheons has more information on this.
Correction, they were, they are not any more because FR's planes are seperate and different from the wheel/ring, according to the Player's Guide, and since that sourcebook came out later, it changed F&P's info. So the named beings from each cosmology are now seperate and different from the other named beings of the other cosmology. I.E, the War of the Spider Queen events, for example, do not effect the Lloth of Greyhawk since she is not the same Lloth of FR.
Yes, that was what I was saying, the FR ASPECT of Lolth now dwells outside of the Abyss, but GH Lolth does not. But since Lolth is a multispherical deity, the two Lolths are still technically the same being. It even says it in F&P, different aspects who don't affect each other, but still same being.
To tell you the truth, I have never liked the "different setting, different being idea." It just seems, "wrong", that it is just a coincidence that there are two beings named Lolth that are about completly identical but are actually different beings. Same with the different Abysses and different Nine Hells. I have always liked the Planescape take on the planes and I guess I am pretty stubbourn on that topic.
Nope, they were the same being in the old lore but they are no longer. There are no multisphereic deities any longer, since, as I said, the Player's Guide changed this and the Player's Guide came out after F&P. What affects FR's Lloth, who is not the same as Hawk's Lloth, does not affect Hawk's Lloth, and vice versa. FR's named beings and planes are not the same as they were in 1e and 2e.
So again, the Lloth of FR is a completely different and seperate being then the Lloth of Hawk. This is the same for all the other named beings. There are no aspects, etc. There's the Lloth of Hawk and then there's a totally unconnected deity for FR. All they share is the name of Lloth.
Furthermore, read the Manual of the Planes FAQ where it clearly states that FR's planes, and the planar beings of the new cosmology, have never been the Wheel/Ring. This if further expanded on in the Player's Guide, page 139, where it clearly states that FR's planes are not the standard planes of the D&D cosmology.
This is why it's a retcon. :) |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 03 Sep 2006 : 23:53:08
First point, unless one is doing pamer travel at all it does not matter how different Lolth is in GH as oposed to FR.
Second point snice 3.0 rank matters little, as even a lessor deity can grant the most powerful spells to their clerics (unlike last Edition) thier history of rank matters little, unless you are fighting a deity in one of the settings.
As a general observation, there should be no reason that the same diety can have a different type pf presense in different places.
|
| FridayThe13th |
Posted - 03 Sep 2006 : 22:55:33
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
The GH Lolth and the FR Lolth are one and the same. But the two beings are different aspects of Lolth that don't really affect one another.
The introduction to Faiths and Pantheons has more information on this.
Correction, they were, they are not any more because FR's planes are seperate and different from the wheel/ring, according to the Player's Guide, and since that sourcebook came out later, it changed F&P's info. So the named beings from each cosmology are now seperate and different from the other named beings of the other cosmology. I.E, the War of the Spider Queen events, for example, do not effect the Lloth of Greyhawk since she is not the same Lloth of FR.
Yes, that was what I was saying, the FR ASPECT of Lolth now dwells outside of the Abyss, but GH Lolth does not. But since Lolth is a multispherical deity, the two Lolths are still technically the same being. It even says it in F&P, different aspects who don't affect each other, but still same being.
To tell you the truth, I have never liked the "different setting, different being idea." It just seems, "wrong", that it is just a coincidence that there are two beings named Lolth that are about completly identical but are actually different beings. Same with the different Abysses and different Nine Hells. I have always liked the Planescape take on the planes and I guess I am pretty stubbourn on that topic. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Sep 2006 : 01:29:44
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
The GH Lolth and the FR Lolth are one and the same. But the two beings are different aspects of Lolth that don't really affect one another.
The introduction to Faiths and Pantheons has more information on this.
Correction, they were, they are not any more because FR's planes are seperate and different from the wheel/ring, according to the Player's Guide, and since that sourcebook came out later, it changed F&P's info. So the named beings from each cosmology are now seperate and different from the other named beings of the other cosmology. I.E, the War of the Spider Queen events, for example, do not effect the Lloth of Greyhawk since she is not the same Lloth of FR.
Indeed.
Friday, try reading through the CoC section I referenced above. That should clear planar matters up, a little. 
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 02 Sep 2006 : 22:33:27
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
The GH Lolth and the FR Lolth are one and the same. But the two beings are different aspects of Lolth that don't really affect one another.
The introduction to Faiths and Pantheons has more information on this.
Correction, they were, they are not any more because FR's planes are seperate and different from the wheel/ring, according to the Player's Guide, and since that sourcebook came out later, it changed F&P's info. So the named beings from each cosmology are now seperate and different from the other named beings of the other cosmology. I.E, the War of the Spider Queen events, for example, do not effect the Lloth of Greyhawk since she is not the same Lloth of FR. |
| FridayThe13th |
Posted - 02 Sep 2006 : 21:44:01
The GH Lolth and the FR Lolth are one and the same. But the two beings are different aspects of Lolth that don't really affect one another.
The introduction to Faiths and Pantheons has more information on this. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 01 Sep 2006 : 15:50:54
quote:
Originally posted by Nokom
I know that lolth is also in greyhawk. I am not sure but I think some others are in dl and gh too. But are they the same gods? Or are they simply the same name?
Take a look at the Planar Explanation (Section D) in the Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct (in my sig). That should help you to understand this particular planar change-over from 2e to 3e.
|
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 01 Sep 2006 : 15:44:26
Corellon is also present in GH, so are the major gods of the other demihuman pantheons, I'm not sure about all of them.
As for DL, there are some theories about Bahamut and Tiamat being Paladine and Thakisis, but this has also been argued against, especially since Krynn has its own mythology.
Due to the now official seperation of the pantheons it seems unliekely that Bahamut is Paladine etc. Also, since the Great Wheel is no longer part of Faerūnian cosmology it can be reasoned that the "similar" gods only bear similar names.
Personally I prefer the old Great Wheel connection. But even then it seemed that the Krynnish deities were not Tiamat and Bahamut. I could ask Tracy Hickman. |
|
|
