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Nokom
Learned Scribe
USA
109 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Sep 2006 : 15:24:45
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I know that lolth is also in greyhawk. I am not sure but I think some others are in dl and gh too. But are they the same gods? Or are they simply the same name?
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2006 : 15:44:26
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Corellon is also present in GH, so are the major gods of the other demihuman pantheons, I'm not sure about all of them.
As for DL, there are some theories about Bahamut and Tiamat being Paladine and Thakisis, but this has also been argued against, especially since Krynn has its own mythology.
Due to the now official seperation of the pantheons it seems unliekely that Bahamut is Paladine etc. Also, since the Great Wheel is no longer part of Faerūnian cosmology it can be reasoned that the "similar" gods only bear similar names.
Personally I prefer the old Great Wheel connection. But even then it seemed that the Krynnish deities were not Tiamat and Bahamut. I could ask Tracy Hickman. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2006 : 15:50:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Nokom
I know that lolth is also in greyhawk. I am not sure but I think some others are in dl and gh too. But are they the same gods? Or are they simply the same name?
Take a look at the Planar Explanation (Section D) in the Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct (in my sig). That should help you to understand this particular planar change-over from 2e to 3e.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 01 Sep 2006 15:52:39 |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2006 : 21:44:01
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The GH Lolth and the FR Lolth are one and the same. But the two beings are different aspects of Lolth that don't really affect one another.
The introduction to Faiths and Pantheons has more information on this. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2006 : 22:33:27
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
The GH Lolth and the FR Lolth are one and the same. But the two beings are different aspects of Lolth that don't really affect one another.
The introduction to Faiths and Pantheons has more information on this.
Correction, they were, they are not any more because FR's planes are seperate and different from the wheel/ring, according to the Player's Guide, and since that sourcebook came out later, it changed F&P's info. So the named beings from each cosmology are now seperate and different from the other named beings of the other cosmology. I.E, the War of the Spider Queen events, for example, do not effect the Lloth of Greyhawk since she is not the same Lloth of FR. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2006 : 01:29:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
The GH Lolth and the FR Lolth are one and the same. But the two beings are different aspects of Lolth that don't really affect one another.
The introduction to Faiths and Pantheons has more information on this.
Correction, they were, they are not any more because FR's planes are seperate and different from the wheel/ring, according to the Player's Guide, and since that sourcebook came out later, it changed F&P's info. So the named beings from each cosmology are now seperate and different from the other named beings of the other cosmology. I.E, the War of the Spider Queen events, for example, do not effect the Lloth of Greyhawk since she is not the same Lloth of FR.
Indeed.
Friday, try reading through the CoC section I referenced above. That should clear planar matters up, a little. 
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2006 : 22:55:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
The GH Lolth and the FR Lolth are one and the same. But the two beings are different aspects of Lolth that don't really affect one another.
The introduction to Faiths and Pantheons has more information on this.
Correction, they were, they are not any more because FR's planes are seperate and different from the wheel/ring, according to the Player's Guide, and since that sourcebook came out later, it changed F&P's info. So the named beings from each cosmology are now seperate and different from the other named beings of the other cosmology. I.E, the War of the Spider Queen events, for example, do not effect the Lloth of Greyhawk since she is not the same Lloth of FR.
Yes, that was what I was saying, the FR ASPECT of Lolth now dwells outside of the Abyss, but GH Lolth does not. But since Lolth is a multispherical deity, the two Lolths are still technically the same being. It even says it in F&P, different aspects who don't affect each other, but still same being.
To tell you the truth, I have never liked the "different setting, different being idea." It just seems, "wrong", that it is just a coincidence that there are two beings named Lolth that are about completly identical but are actually different beings. Same with the different Abysses and different Nine Hells. I have always liked the Planescape take on the planes and I guess I am pretty stubbourn on that topic. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4696 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2006 : 23:53:08
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First point, unless one is doing pamer travel at all it does not matter how different Lolth is in GH as oposed to FR.
Second point snice 3.0 rank matters little, as even a lessor deity can grant the most powerful spells to their clerics (unlike last Edition) thier history of rank matters little, unless you are fighting a deity in one of the settings.
As a general observation, there should be no reason that the same diety can have a different type pf presense in different places.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2006 : 23:59:59
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
The GH Lolth and the FR Lolth are one and the same. But the two beings are different aspects of Lolth that don't really affect one another.
The introduction to Faiths and Pantheons has more information on this.
Correction, they were, they are not any more because FR's planes are seperate and different from the wheel/ring, according to the Player's Guide, and since that sourcebook came out later, it changed F&P's info. So the named beings from each cosmology are now seperate and different from the other named beings of the other cosmology. I.E, the War of the Spider Queen events, for example, do not effect the Lloth of Greyhawk since she is not the same Lloth of FR.
Yes, that was what I was saying, the FR ASPECT of Lolth now dwells outside of the Abyss, but GH Lolth does not. But since Lolth is a multispherical deity, the two Lolths are still technically the same being. It even says it in F&P, different aspects who don't affect each other, but still same being.
To tell you the truth, I have never liked the "different setting, different being idea." It just seems, "wrong", that it is just a coincidence that there are two beings named Lolth that are about completly identical but are actually different beings. Same with the different Abysses and different Nine Hells. I have always liked the Planescape take on the planes and I guess I am pretty stubbourn on that topic.
Nope, they were the same being in the old lore but they are no longer. There are no multisphereic deities any longer, since, as I said, the Player's Guide changed this and the Player's Guide came out after F&P. What affects FR's Lloth, who is not the same as Hawk's Lloth, does not affect Hawk's Lloth, and vice versa. FR's named beings and planes are not the same as they were in 1e and 2e.
So again, the Lloth of FR is a completely different and seperate being then the Lloth of Hawk. This is the same for all the other named beings. There are no aspects, etc. There's the Lloth of Hawk and then there's a totally unconnected deity for FR. All they share is the name of Lloth.
Furthermore, read the Manual of the Planes FAQ where it clearly states that FR's planes, and the planar beings of the new cosmology, have never been the Wheel/Ring. This if further expanded on in the Player's Guide, page 139, where it clearly states that FR's planes are not the standard planes of the D&D cosmology.
This is why it's a retcon. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 04 Sep 2006 00:18:17 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 01:31:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Furthermore, read the Manual of the Planes FAQ where it clearly states that FR's planes, and the planar beings of the new cosmology, have never been the Wheel/Ring. This if further expanded on in the Player's Guide, page 139, where it clearly states that FR's planes are not the standard planes of the D&D cosmology.
Actually, I've got to remember to add the MotP reference to the Planar Section of the Candlekeep Guide to Forgotten Realms FAQ.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 04 Sep 2006 01:33:09 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 01:37:24
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
But since Lolth is a multispherical deity, the two Lolths are still technically the same being. It even says it in F&P, different aspects who don't affect each other, but still same being.
Yes, but that was changed thanks to PGtF. And with lore contained in newer sourcebooks overriding those of old, what PGtF says is more in line with how we should consider Lolth and her status in the FR cosmology, now. What F&P states about Lolth being the same being no longer has any relevance.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2006 : 14:17:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
But since Lolth is a multispherical deity, the two Lolths are still technically the same being. It even says it in F&P, different aspects who don't affect each other, but still same being.
Yes, but that was changed thanks to PGtF. And with lore contained in newer sourcebooks overriding those of old, what PGtF says is more in line with how we should consider Lolth and her status in the FR cosmology, now. What F&P states about Lolth being the same being no longer has any relevance.
ok, I have a question...then can we assume with the "lolth ret-con" due to the planar cosmology change that the other multi-sphere/multi-world gods in the Realms are unique "Realmsian" versions of the "real" powers i.e. Tyr, Silvanus, Oghma, Mielikki, Lovitar, Tymora/Beshaba/Tyche? |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2006 : 15:37:35
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
But since Lolth is a multispherical deity, the two Lolths are still technically the same being. It even says it in F&P, different aspects who don't affect each other, but still same being.
Yes, but that was changed thanks to PGtF. And with lore contained in newer sourcebooks overriding those of old, what PGtF says is more in line with how we should consider Lolth and her status in the FR cosmology, now. What F&P states about Lolth being the same being no longer has any relevance.
ok, I have a question...then can we assume with the "lolth ret-con" due to the planar cosmology change that the other multi-sphere/multi-world gods in the Realms are unique "Realmsian" versions of the "real" powers i.e. Tyr, Silvanus, Oghma, Mielikki, Lovitar, Tymora/Beshaba/Tyche?
All FR deities that have representation on other worlds or in other cosmologies besides the FR cosmology are no longer the same beings. They are now, completely separate and specifically just Realms-based deities with no connection to like-named beings or deities in other cosmologies.
My Planar Explanation section in the Candlekeep Code of Conduct explains this in more depth. See the URL in my sig.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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gods and lolth
