| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Lord of the Undead |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 09:49:11
Hello everyone, I had recently read through the Spellfire novels and I had been wondering about this: If the Weave and Mystra allows Shandril to wield the raw power of the Weave as Spellfire, is there an counter to it? Whereby Shar balances this with the raw power of the Shadow Weave manifesting as Shadowfire?
Is there such a possibility? If yes, it would be a good thing and Mystra must back down with her supposed control over magic and one chalk up for Shar!. 
Is it true that the Shadowfire wielders are 100% Anti-Spellfire and 100% against Spellfire wielders? |
| 14 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 16 Apr 2006 : 16:34:17
Hey, my wife is a network systems administrator . . . I'm bound to pick up a few things. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Apr 2006 : 15:47:15
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I guess it always struck me that Shar didn't set up her own server, she just steals bandwidth from Mystra.
I like that analogy. I may have to use it myself, sometime.  |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 16 Apr 2006 : 06:58:26
For the purposes of my campaign, I would not have shadow casters draw on the Shadow Weave to use their mysteries. Why? Because the sidebar that mentions that shadowcasters in the Realms draw on the Shadow Weave seems to be a sort of throw away comment that is a token gesture to tie this magic to the Realms.
In fact, I can picture Krinth rebels and disgruntled younger Netherese turning to shadow mysteries as an alternative to the Shadow Weave magic of the Princes. But I'll save that for the Tome of Magic thread itself.
Suffice to say, it does bother me that the Shadow Weave, which was concieved as a sneaky "back door" for Shar's followers to use, allowing them to cloak their activities from Mystra, has turned into a Dark Side of the Weave/Light Side of the Weave thing.
If they were actually split in half, then the the "light weave" wouldn't be able to power spells with the darkness descriptor, and would be less powerful in casting illusions and necromancy spells. It would also be harder for Shadow Weave users to detect and counter.
I guess it always struck me that Shar didn't set up her own server, she just steals bandwidth from Mystra. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Mar 2006 : 00:26:35
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Ed does want to stress that the opinion sometimes expressed on these forums (that Mystra and her Chosen are his “personal favourites,” and are Mary-Sues because of that) is wrong. The focus on these Realms characters has been created and nurtured by TSR and WotC editors, in the same way that gamers (and other Realms writers) continue to be fascinated by matters godly. Ed is just as much of a “fan” of Shar, who is also his creation.
(snip)
love,
THO
This is something that I wish more people would realize... I'm actually going to keep this quote handy in my "CK catchall" file (where I keep all my pre-formatted links and such), so I can quote it whenever I see another person say El or the Seven Sisters are "author's darlings".
Indeed, a worthy consideration... especially with regard to Elminster since he almost always seems to be the most popular "target" for author darling discussions both here and at WotC.
I'm filing it away also  .
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Mar 2006 : 16:55:11
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Ed does want to stress that the opinion sometimes expressed on these forums (that Mystra and her Chosen are his “personal favourites,” and are Mary-Sues because of that) is wrong. The focus on these Realms characters has been created and nurtured by TSR and WotC editors, in the same way that gamers (and other Realms writers) continue to be fascinated by matters godly. Ed is just as much of a “fan” of Shar, who is also his creation.
(snip)
love,
THO
This is something that I wish more people would realize... I'm actually going to keep this quote handy in my "CK catchall" file (where I keep all my pre-formatted links and such), so I can quote it whenever I see another person say El or the Seven Sisters are "author's darlings". |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 15 Mar 2006 : 14:53:10
Good point, Arivia.
Ed was of course working from an electronic file draft of the Tome, not the published work (though he could legally speak of its details because the book had shipped).
We’ve both (since my posting) purchased “real” copies of the book, in which that sidebar (absent from the electronic version, Ed tells me) appears.
As you say, this doesn’t invalidate his views set forth in my post, above.
Ed does want to stress that the opinion sometimes expressed on these forums (that Mystra and her Chosen are his “personal favourites,” and are Mary-Sues because of that) is wrong. The focus on these Realms characters has been created and nurtured by TSR and WotC editors, in the same way that gamers (and other Realms writers) continue to be fascinated by matters godly. Ed is just as much of a “fan” of Shar, who is also his creation. The Shadow Weave (not Ed’s creation; it came from an orphaned Birthright novel by Rich Baker) had always meshed “awkwardly” with the Realms, and Ed would love to banish that awkwardness somehow, NOT get rid of the Shadow Weave.
love,
THO
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| Arivia |
Posted - 15 Mar 2006 : 04:14:50
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
The new TOME OF MAGIC presents three other “systems” of harnessing energies (“magical forces,” most sages would call them). One of those systems is Shadow Magic, and it provides magic that followers of Shar could well turn to, either if the Weave is gone, OR if a DM wants to postulate that Shadow Weave users can tap into this system. Unfortunately, one of the things that Shadow Magic as presented in that tome doesn’t provide users is “shadowfire” or darkfire as it’s been discussed in this thread thus far.
Actually, this isn't exactly true; I just reread the sidebar on the interaction between shadow magic and the Shadow Weave in preparation of an update to my campaign documents, and it actually does state that shadow magic does draw from the Shadow Weave. Then the mystery Black Fire does establish some sort of shadow fuelled fire, although it's nowhere near actual spellfire/silver fire.
This is all about the new Tome of Magic, however, and not about the rest of what Ed has said; sorry for disagreeing. |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 15 Mar 2006 : 01:40:52
I sent this thread to Ed Greenwood for the definitive two coppers’ worth, and he’s replied.
Here’s Ed:
The concept of darkfire or shadowfire is attractive, but to champion it requires a misunderstanding of what the Shadow Weave really is. It’s NOT (despite the propaganda betimes put out by the clergy of Shar) a separate (and equal) system of magic to the Weave; rather, it exists as an echo of the Weave, matching and surpassing the Weave only when Shar personally feeds it with her divine power (and, being an essentially a selfish, ruthless entity, such feedings will be rare acts indeed; she doesn’t CARE what happens to mortal worshippers).
Spellfire is the raw energy of magic, a taste of the way magic was before there was a Weave, restricted (in some small ways) by the Weave (that is, by the will of Mystra). The Shadow Weave works by drawing on this same energy, so there is no shadowfire: there is only spellfire. Shar as a divine power could give certain of her mortal followers a “darkfire” analagous to the silver fire of Mystra (sharing her divine power, in other words), IF she desired to.
She could not give the Shadow Weave users spellfire, because it, by its very nature, consumes and rends shadow weave-magic far more swiftly and more widely than it does Weave-based spells.
To those who argue that Shar could kill Mystra or destroy the Weave: those two things are the same, as Mystra IS the Weave. No mortal yet knows what would then happen, but it should be obvious that as an echo of the Weave, the Shadow Weave itself would also be destroyed (or would collapse).
Remember, the Weave isn’t the energies of magic. The Weave is magic: that is, a system of harnessing those energies by means of an existing body of spells.
The new TOME OF MAGIC presents three other “systems” of harnessing energies (“magical forces,” most sages would call them). One of those systems is Shadow Magic, and it provides magic that followers of Shar could well turn to, either if the Weave is gone, OR if a DM wants to postulate that Shadow Weave users can tap into this system. Unfortunately, one of the things that Shadow Magic as presented in that tome doesn’t provide users is “shadowfire” or darkfire as it’s been discussed in this thread thus far.
Various TSR and WotC designers and fiction writers and I have discussed these matters many times over the years, to hammer out agreement on the specifics of what Mystra can and can’t do, what Shar can and can’t do, and what the Weave and the Shadow Weave can and can’t do. Please remember two things: divine situations in the Realms aren’t static; there will inevitably be “developments” in the struggle between Shar and Mystra. And as the creator of Shar, Mystra, AND the Realms, I’m in a position to see things more clearly than anyone else.
So saith Ed. Interesting, VERY interesting.
love to all,
THO
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 11:21:37
quote:
Originally posted by TymoraChosen
I wonder what will happen to Mystra's Chosen if a Shadowfire wielder attacks Mystra's Chosen with Shadowfire...death of Mystra's Chosen? Another good piece of news if it can happen.
Doubtful, since the Shadow Weave is, by definition, a lesser form of the Weave.
Ed has been asked about shadowfire in the past, and gave this reply:
quote:
To The Black Hand of Bane, you’re quite right about Shar being interested in far more than the Shadow Weave. Like all deities, she’s trying to increase her followers, and the allure of the forbidden and illict meetings by night and being part of important little secret societies are her tried-and-true tools to winning the maximum numbers of followers. Only the most grasping and ambitious insist on magical rewards beyond what Shar can grant through her clergy, and before them she dangles the lure of the Shadow Weave.
Shar CAN grant her followers corrupted versions of the same powers Mystra gives, but darkfire and the like are mere shadows of Mystra’s boons, not equivalents. So, there’s no “dark” version of spellfire or the silver fire, despite the claims of Shar or her clergy to the contrary, just inferior unleashings. I know Realms fans love to argue about the natures and powers of the gods, and I promise that in time to come more will be revealed that will surprise many -- but there’s no way I can or will say more, right now. Just remember: if I say it, it’s canon until contradicted in print by a later WotC official Realms publication. Call now, for trained operators are standing by. :}
quote:
Originally posted by TymoraChosen
By the way, those without PDF program to read the article, please PM me and perhaps I will PM you the article.
Adobe Reader is free, so there shouldn't be an issue. It is now up to version 7.0.7. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 11:17:33
quote:
Originally posted by silvermage
If there are Shadowfire wielders, then Spellfire wielders like Shandril are in hot soup!  And Mystra knocked back on her heels and bad news for the Guardians of the Weave and certainly a glorious good news to the Shadovar and Anti-Weave folk.
Also, Spellfire wielders are more likely to humbled by Shadowfire wielders. But the Shadow Weave is corrupted version of the Weave so I am naturally inclined to believe it cannot heal except maybe the undead. I am certain the Shadowfire wielders would go round chasing Spellfire wielders and challenging them in a death duel. if so, I am certain powerful Shadowfire wielders should be able to sense Spellfire wielders within a certain range and vice versa, to balance it.
Uh, nope, not according to Ed:
quote:
However, spellfire trumps all magic. A spellfire wielder CAN absorb Shadow Weave-based magics. Note that the spellfire just destroys the magic on contact, “sucking in” the spell or spell effect. Unlike a Weave-based magic, the absorbed energy is just “gone.” It doesn’t fuel or aid the spellfire user in any way (aside from obliberating or preventing whatever effects the Shadow Weave-based magic would ordinarily have had). Spellfire simply causes Shadow-Weave magic to cease to exist, upon contact. So if the posters meant, “Can a spellfire channeler (or other spellfire-wielding character) absorb Shadow Weave magic to power their spellfire?” the answer is no, and you’re right. But a spellfire channeler (or other spellfire-wielding character) CAN absorb Shadow Weave, without harm to themselves [without being themselves disintegrated], automatically upon contact between spellfire and the Shadow Weave magic, and such absorption is silent, instant oblivion for the magic.
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| TymoraChosen |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 10:39:12
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Vengeance
Wonderful! Absolutely Wonderful! Well, I gonna sure adopt the Shadowfire prestige class into my campaign! Not caring if it is canon or not, as long as there is something to counter Spellfire, I am in for it!
Indeed, TymoraChosen, three cheers for Shar and to her ingenious thinking. Now, I and my fellows need not fear Mystra and her Chosen Silverfire and any Spellfire wielder.
Similarly, Sir Vengeance, I am certainly going to adopt this into my campaign regardless of canon or not, in a glorious holy crusade against Mystra Faithful and the Guardians of the Weave. Bad news for the Guardians and Mystra's Chosen.
I wonder what will happen to Mystra's Chosen if a Shadowfire wielder attacks Mystra's Chosen with Shadowfire...death of Mystra's Chosen? Another good piece of news if it can happen.
By the way, those without PDF program to read the article, please PM me and perhaps I will PM you the article. |
| Sir Vengeance |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 10:34:28
Wonderful! Absolutely Wonderful! Well, I gonna sure adopt the Shadowfire prestige class into my campaign! Not caring if it is canon or not, as long as there is something to counter Spellfire, I am in for it!
Indeed, TymoraChosen, three cheers for Shar and to her ingenious thinking. Now, I and my fellows need not fear Mystra and her Chosen Silverfire and any Spellfire wielder. |
| TymoraChosen |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 10:27:39
I think Shadowfire wasn't considered canon yet, but heard that there are Shadowfire prestige classes with an fair range of abilities to fight the Spellfire wielders, well i think there was a prestige class on Shadowfire wielders though not considered canon(I don't know canon or not) but well just appreciate it, and of course, three cheers for Shar, and new weapons for those losing the war against the Mystra and her Chosen! No need to fear them anymore.
Here:www.halfling.org/dnd/downloads/shadowfire.pdf (Ensure you have PDF programs first before reading this wonderful article) |
| silvermage |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 10:19:47
Hmm...naturally I am inclined to believe that by natural rights, there should be a counter to Spellfire, but so far Magic of Faerun and FRCS had not revealed the presence of Shadowfire.
If there are Shadowfire wielders, then Spellfire wielders like Shandril are in hot soup! And Mystra knocked back on her heels and bad news for the Guardians of the Weave and certainly a glorious good news to the Shadovar and Anti-Weave folk.
Also, Spellfire wielders are more likely to humbled by Shadowfire wielders. But the Shadow Weave is corrupted version of the Weave so I am naturally inclined to believe it cannot heal except maybe the undead. I am certain the Shadowfire wielders would go round chasing Spellfire wielders and challenging them in a death duel. if so, I am certain powerful Shadowfire wielders should be able to sense Spellfire wielders within a certain range and vice versa, to balance it. |
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