| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 26 Dec 2005 : 01:37:12
This is the place for Feedback on my crusader class article |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 04 Jan 2006 : 01:44:48
Ok gone back to templates instead of specfic creatures and Ive got something for around 95% of the gods
However Oghma is proving to be a problem
As hes TN I cant use any of the alignment based templates
The closest thing I can think of is a Giant Owl which will have the same CR as a Heavy warhorse with a +1 template. The Oghma Divine ally would be a flat Giant Owl with no template. The Problem is the Giant Owl flies and the DMG says that a flying mount should have a CR 4 less than the Paladin/Crusaders level non flying mounts only have to be 3 less. This would mean that the a Crusader of Oghma wouldnt be able to get the Giant Owl until they where 7th level (everyone else gets theirs at 6th)
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| Dargoth |
Posted - 27 Dec 2005 : 09:01:03
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
There are massive problems with the Divine Allies list.
First off-why are they not all outsiders or elementals?
The orgional idea was to assign them either Axiomatic/Anachic/Fiendish or Celestial however this fell down for True neutral which doesnt have an alignment template. I also found some other +1 Templates in some other source books
I was aiming for around a CR 3 or 4 for each Divine Ally (The orgional idea was for a heavy warhorse (CR2)plus the Template (+1 to CR)
However after having a look in Deities Does and Donts I found that most deities had an animal or associated monster so if it was around CR4 I went with it.
Some of them may need tinkering or replacing (The Aurils winter wolf and the Drow god of slimes Divine ally spring to mind)
One thing I am thinking of doing is making the Diivine Ally abit more flexiable in when you get it (for example a Champion of Auril may have to wait until there 10th level or so in order to get the Winter Wolf)
Edit: Ok I see what your talking about a mount has to be a minimum of 3 Challenge rating lower than the Crusader (as per the alternate mount rules in DMG) |
| Arivia |
Posted - 27 Dec 2005 : 08:39:55
There are massive problems with the Divine Allies list.
First off-why are they not all outsiders or elementals? |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 27 Dec 2005 : 07:06:41
SENT
You should all have mail |
| Arivia |
Posted - 27 Dec 2005 : 06:26:57
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Does anyone know if the Moon Horse was converted to 3ed/35? or if theres a horse closely associated with elves (Outside of Pegasus and Unicorns)
Why not just use a celestial cooshee(updated in Races of the Wild)? |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 27 Dec 2005 : 06:04:48
Does anyone know if the Moon Horse was converted to 3ed/35? or if theres a horse closely associated with elves (Outside of Pegasus and Unicorns)
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| Chosen of Bane |
Posted - 27 Dec 2005 : 05:53:19
I really can't wait to see this list of "Divine Allies".
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| Arivia |
Posted - 27 Dec 2005 : 05:34:16
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Hmm I might just give Yurtus a Fiendish Dire Rat then
I'd highly suggest it. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 27 Dec 2005 : 05:31:41
Hmm I might just give Yurtus a Fiendish Dire Rat then
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| Arivia |
Posted - 27 Dec 2005 : 05:24:19
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Yes. Note, however, that there's a very weird rules case there about the interaction between smite and swarm damage.
You mean whether a Fiendish Rat swarm can Smite good and deal damage in the same round when therir sharing a square with their target?
Yes. Essentially, swarms are the only creatures in the game that don't have an attack form that includes an attack roll, but the smite ability uses an attack roll in it. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 27 Dec 2005 : 05:21:47
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Question: Can you apply the Fiendish Template to a Rat swarm?
Yes. Note, however, that there's a very weird rules case there about the interaction between smite and swarm damage.
You mean whether a Fiendish Rat swarm can Smite good and deal damage in the same round when therir sharing a square with their target? |
| Arivia |
Posted - 27 Dec 2005 : 05:11:55
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Question: Can you apply the Fiendish Template to a Rat swarm?
Yes. Note, however, that there's a very weird rules case there about the interaction between smite and swarm damage. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 27 Dec 2005 : 05:11:19
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Question: Can you apply the Fiendish Template to a Rat swarm?
From SRD under the "Fiendish" entry:quote:
“Fiendish” is an inherited template that can be added to any corporeal aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin of nongood alignment (referred to
hereafter as the base creature).
Also from SRD under creature type for a swarm (of Bats actually but it's essentially the same thing)...
quote:
Diminutive Animal (Swarm)
So, since animal is listed as the type under swarm I would say that you can indeed add the fiendish template to a swarm of rats.
Yeah I read that but then I thought a Swarm is more than one creature
Thanks! |
| Chosen of Bane |
Posted - 27 Dec 2005 : 05:06:40
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Question: Can you apply the Fiendish Template to a Rat swarm?
From SRD under the "Fiendish" entry:quote:
“Fiendish” is an inherited template that can be added to any corporeal aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin of nongood alignment (referred to
hereafter as the base creature).
Also from SRD under creature type for a swarm (of Bats actually but it's essentially the same thing)...
quote:
Diminutive Animal (Swarm)
So, since animal is listed as the type under swarm I would say that you can indeed add the fiendish template to a swarm of rats. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 27 Dec 2005 : 04:52:48
Question: Can you apply the Fiendish Template to a Rat swarm? |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 27 Dec 2005 : 03:01:13
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
However, you're forgetting that they'll be getting this ability at 1st level, and as only part of an ability! The initiate feats are specifically balanced with that level requirement, and you're removing that. Additionally, we know the 3.5 regional feats are overpowered for specific reasons, which we are not duplicating here.
Granting these benefits at 1st level in this way is unbalancing. It's just that simple.
Actually they'll only be getting part of the Divine focus power at 1st level they wont be getting the spells (the 2nd component of Divine focus) until at least 4th level. Divine focus basicly gives a Crusader the benefit of a Feat and 4 spells which they cant use straight away. I disagree that that the initiate Feats preqs are tied to the Benefit, in most cases the prereq to seems to be tied to minimum class level needed to cast the lowest level spell that the Initiate of X feat grants |
| Arivia |
Posted - 27 Dec 2005 : 02:32:07
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Lets take a look and see if we can find something that grants a similar benefit
Initiate of Bane: The Frightful presence benefit is almost exactly the same as the Dreadful wrath regional feat which is avaliable to 1st level characters (admitedly its restricted to certain regions) as such I dont think it could be considered to be overpowered
Initiate of Cyric: Immunity to Magical non magical fear like the Banite Frightful presence this ability has a clone as a regional feat ie Fearless so Id say it balance. Also consider this a regular Paladin basicly gets the what an Initiate of Cyric gives in the form of Aura of Courage at 3rd level. Now admitedly a Paladin has to wait until 3rd level before he gets it however the Paladins Aura of Courage also gives every ally within 10 feet of the a +4 morale bonus to saves against fear, the initiate of Cyric only makes the Crusader immune to fear theres no bonus to allies
Initiate of Gruumsh: 1 per day convert a Cure spell into a swift inflict spell,. CoR gives this to clerics at 3rd level. I dont think this is a problem remember to use this ability the crusader of Gruumsh has to be able to convert an existing Cure Spell into an inflict spell and a Crusader wont have access to that until they reach 4th level at the earliest
Initiate of Ilmater: Yes this does seem to be rather powerful but I dont think it is. The caster can only add HPs equal to the targets HD (Im guessing thats meant to be a divided by symbol)divided by 3
So assuming that the target is a 20th level character the maximum number of HPs he'd get is 6 (20 divided by 3 = 6.6666 rounded is 6.
6hps isnt alot for 20th level character.... admitedly they do get a couple of nice bonuses as well but I dont think its 2 over powered
Initiate of Mystra: Ok this one might be a little overpowered but how often is are you going to be in a Dead magic area or trapped in an Anti Magic field also remember a Crusader cant cast spells until at least 4th level. Its a little overpowered but the benfit is only avaliable in a very few circumstances. Im incline to let it stand as is.
These 2 are easily dealt with Law Inviolate, Whispered Secrets there not FR specfic Initiate feats (There from Races of Destiny)so you cant use them for divine focus
However, you're forgetting that they'll be getting this ability at 1st level, and as only part of an ability! The initiate feats are specifically balanced with that level requirement, and you're removing that. Additionally, we know the 3.5 regional feats are overpowered for specific reasons, which we are not duplicating here.
Granting these benefits at 1st level in this way is unbalancing. It's just that simple. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 27 Dec 2005 : 02:15:52
Ilsensine said the same thing . . . |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 27 Dec 2005 : 01:42:54
Planar Mount will be renamed Divine Ally and a table detailing a deitys enemies and the Divine ally they get should be sent out to you guys some time today (Damn there are a lot of Gods in the FR!) |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 27 Dec 2005 : 00:26:21
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Which ones in particularly do you have problem with?
Or is just the ones in your previous post that you think are underpowered?
Most of the Initiate Feats seem to have a prereq based on the level of the lowest spell a cleric gets to add ie you need to be 5th level to take the Initiate of Bane feat (Mystic lash is the first spell you get (and you need to be 5th level to cast a 3rd level spell)
As for some Initiate benefits being better than others this is probably true (and in some cases its desireablity may rise or fall based what the player plans to go with the Crusader Class/PrC wise) that being said the Crusader doesnt have to take his Deities Initiate Feat Benefit he can choose the Benefit from one of deities Domains instead this gives him a choice between 3 to 4 Benefits at the minimum.
I'm more concerned about the ones I listed as being more powerful than your average feat. Those are poweful enough, and unbalancing at 1st level.
Lets take a look and see if we can find something that grants a similar benefit
Initiate of Bane: The Frightful presence benefit is almost exactly the same as the Dreadful wrath regional feat which is avaliable to 1st level characters (admitedly its restricted to certain regions) as such I dont think it could be considered to be overpowered
Initiate of Cyric: Immunity to Magical non magical fear like the Banite Frightful presence this ability has a clone as a regional feat ie Fearless so Id say it balance. Also consider this a regular Paladin basicly gets the what an Initiate of Cyric gives in the form of Aura of Courage at 3rd level. Now admitedly a Paladin has to wait until 3rd level before he gets it however the Paladins Aura of Courage also gives every ally within 10 feet of the a +4 morale bonus to saves against fear, the initiate of Cyric only makes the Crusader immune to fear theres no bonus to allies
Initiate of Gruumsh: 1 per day convert a Cure spell into a swift inflict spell,. CoR gives this to clerics at 3rd level. I dont think this is a problem remember to use this ability the crusader of Gruumsh has to be able to convert an existing Cure Spell into an inflict spell and a Crusader wont have access to that until they reach 4th level at the earliest
Initiate of Ilmater: Yes this does seem to be rather powerful but I dont think it is. The caster can only add HPs equal to the targets HD (Im guessing thats meant to be a divided by symbol)divided by 3
So assuming that the target is a 20th level character the maximum number of HPs he'd get is 6 (20 divided by 3 = 6.6666 rounded is 6.
6hps isnt alot for 20th level character.... admitedly they do get a couple of nice bonuses as well but I dont think its 2 over powered
Initiate of Mystra: Ok this one might be a little overpowered but how often is are you going to be in a Dead magic area or trapped in an Anti Magic field also remember a Crusader cant cast spells until at least 4th level. Its a little overpowered but the benfit is only avaliable in a very few circumstances. Im incline to let it stand as is.
These 2 are easily dealt with Law Inviolate, Whispered Secrets there not FR specfic Initiate feats (There from Races of Destiny)so you cant use them for divine focus
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| Arivia |
Posted - 26 Dec 2005 : 23:28:45
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Which ones in particularly do you have problem with?
Or is just the ones in your previous post that you think are underpowered?
Most of the Initiate Feats seem to have a prereq based on the level of the lowest spell a cleric gets to add ie you need to be 5th level to take the Initiate of Bane feat (Mystic lash is the first spell you get (and you need to be 5th level to cast a 3rd level spell)
As for some Initiate benefits being better than others this is probably true (and in some cases its desireablity may rise or fall based what the player plans to go with the Crusader Class/PrC wise) that being said the Crusader doesnt have to take his Deities Initiate Feat Benefit he can choose the Benefit from one of deities Domains instead this gives him a choice between 3 to 4 Benefits at the minimum.
I'm more concerned about the ones I listed as being more powerful than your average feat. Those are poweful enough, and unbalancing at 1st level. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 26 Dec 2005 : 23:19:56
Which ones in particularly do you have problem with?
Or is just the ones in your previous post that you think are underpowered?
Most of the Initiate Feats seem to have a prereq based on the level of the lowest spell a cleric gets to add ie you need to be 5th level to take the Initiate of Bane feat (Mystic lash is the first spell you get (and you need to be 5th level to cast a 3rd level spell)
As for some Initiate benefits being better than others this is probably true (and in some cases its desireablity may rise or fall based what the player plans to go with the Crusader Class/PrC wise) that being said the Crusader doesnt have to take his Deities Initiate Feat Benefit he can choose the Benefit from one of deities Domains instead this gives him a choice between 3 to 4 Benefits at the minimum. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 26 Dec 2005 : 23:00:40
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
The Mounts are currently under revision. (and are looking quite nice, I never new there where so many +1 templates in 3.0/3.5)
There is a reason why Ive allowed the Crusader to choose any 4 spells from the Initiate Feat and the Deities Domains
1)Some of the Domains have spells the Crusaders likely to get in his core spell list (When I do the spell list Im likely going to merge the Blackguard and Paladin spell lists together with a few restrictions based on alignment ie Evil Crusaders wont be able to cast Holy Sword and vice versa)
2)The Crusader only gets access to spells from level 1 to 4 and some Initiate feats have few and in some case no spells within that range
3)Now a Crusader could take 4 4th level spells from the Initiate/Domains open to him however he wont gain access to 14th level at the earliest. The Divine Focus spells are investment that wont pay off until later in the Crusaders Career
Okay, but that still doesn't resolve the initiate feat benefit balance issue. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 26 Dec 2005 : 22:52:04
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Arivia commented on most of the comments I was going to say. :) You need to add the SP, SU, etc, tags to the ability write ups. I did do some editing and I've sent you my edited file back to you.
I also am a bit concerned about the TN's. They seem to get shafted with mounts.... :(
Otherwise I like the class. But, I was also concerned about the Initate spells.... They could get out of hand but Arivia knows the rules better then I do and she can help you better then I can with balancing those. :)
The Mounts are currently under revision. (and are looking quite nice, I never new there where so many +1 templates in 3.0/3.5)
There is a reason why Ive allowed the Crusader to choose any 4 spells from the Initiate Feat and the Deities Domains
1)Some of the Domains have spells the Crusaders likely to get in his core spell list (When I do the spell list Im likely going to merge the Blackguard and Paladin spell lists together with a few restrictions based on alignment ie Evil Crusaders wont be able to cast Holy Sword and vice versa)
2)The Crusader only gets access to spells from level 1 to 4 and some Initiate feats have few and in some case no spells within that range
3)Now a Crusader could take 4 4th level spells from the Initiate/Domains open to him however he wont gain access to 14th level at the earliest. The Divine Focus spells are investment that wont pay off until later in the Crusaders Career
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| Arivia |
Posted - 26 Dec 2005 : 20:49:20
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
A small and rather insignificant point but...
In your listing of sourcematerial for initiate feats you neglected to mention City of Splendors: Waterdeep, which has the Initiate of Shar feat.
Ah, okay-don't have it yet, so that would be why I missed that. Added. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 26 Dec 2005 : 20:47:01
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Otherwise I like the class. But, I was also concerned about the Initate spells.... They could get out of hand but Arivia knows the rules better then I do and she can help you better then I can with balancing those. :)
Looking at the Initiate feats I've got access to(CoR,PGtF,RoD-I should be getting CoV within the week), I can see what you mean-they are of very varying power in terms of the other benefits. Some are just like domains(Initiate of Nature, Initiate of Ghaunadar), some are on the power level of non-epic feats(Initiate of Loviatar, Initiate of Malar), while some are a bit more powerful(Initiate of Bane, Initiate of Cyric, Initiate of Gruumsh, Initiate of Ilmater, [arguably] Initiate of Mystra, Law Inviolate, Whispered Secrets) and some are downright underpowered(Initiate of Tyr, I'm looking right at you).
Perhaps we should break Divine Focus(I want to address the name, too) apart, into these:
Domain Access: At 1st level, a cavalier may select one of their deity's granted non-prestige domains. They gain the granted ability of that domain, and add the first-level to fourth-level spells of that domain to their spell list.
Initiate of the Faith: At x level(I suggest no lower than 5th), a cavalier gains one initiate feat as a bonus feat. They do not need to meet any of the prerequisites except that their patron deity must be one of the ones listed in the feat prerequisites(I can't think of a better way to word this, anyone got an idea?). They gain all benefits listed in the Benefit section of the feat.
Alternatively, the cavalier may select one of their deity's granted non-prestige domains. They gain the granted ability of that domain, and add the first-level to fourth-level spells of that domain to their spell list. They cannot select the same domain they selected for domain access.
Note: Initiate feats can be found in Champions of Ruin, Champions of Valor, City of Splendors: Waterdeep, Player's Guide to Faerun, Races of Destiny, and Shining South.
(Note that neither of these abilities has Su/Sp/Ex noted-they don't apply to those abilities.)
Regarding why I didn't name either of them Divine Focus: I could swear there is already an ability/feat called divine focus. If we call the ability we're talking about Divine Focus, and it doesn't match the other ability completely in effect, we'll be breaking the unspoken rule for clarity that essentially says "never name any two class abilities/feats the same thing to decrease confusion from multiclassing".
I also made some important changes to my wordings in the posts above-please check those for updates. |
| Chosen of Bane |
Posted - 26 Dec 2005 : 20:46:40
A small and rather insignificant point but...
In your listing of sourcematerial for initiate feats you neglected to mention City of Splendors: Waterdeep, which has the Initiate of Shar feat. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 26 Dec 2005 : 19:41:28
Arivia commented on most of the comments I was going to say. :) You need to add the SP, SU, etc, tags to the ability write ups. I did do some editing and I've sent you my edited file back to you.
I also am a bit concerned about the TN's. They seem to get shafted with mounts.... :(
Otherwise I like the class. But, I was also concerned about the Initate spells.... They could get out of hand but Arivia knows the rules better then I do and she can help you better then I can with balancing those. :) |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 26 Dec 2005 : 07:44:29
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Well, due to the whole Metatext thing Liera might have qualified, but since she is gone . . .
I decided to go with Cyric according to F&P they dont get on |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 26 Dec 2005 : 07:05:44
Well, due to the whole Metatext thing Liera might have qualified, but since she is gone . . . |
