| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Rhezarnos |
Posted - 23 Nov 2005 : 05:18:03
Just finished reading Part I & II of the Last Mythal trilogy and a couple of questions came to mind soon after. Can anyone help?
1) They called Malkizid a fallen celestial. If that's the case, I take it that there's more fallens out there? And how does one corrupt a celestial?
2) Looking up the history of tanar'ri again, I found that "the most numerous of demons are the tanar'ri...". The same goes for baatezu. If they make up the majority, there'd be other kinds of demons and devils around, right? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 19:06:38
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
1) Fallen Celestials, going bibically several of the Archdevils/Dukes of Hell are Fallen Angels, especially if you the expanded ones that never made it to 3E, such as Lucifer.
I do like the 3.5 idea that Asmodeus, Dispater, and Mephistopheles were all celestials, warrior angels, before they became archdevils. And supposedly the whole race of erinyes were angels before they were devils.
Hmm... I wonder, then, if there are 'unfallen' erinyes still in the Upper Planes? |
| warlockco |
Posted - 04 Dec 2005 : 04:06:59
Nicely done, and good word twisting.  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Dec 2005 : 03:07:03
[What follows is an excerpt of a conversation between the tome archon of Mertion, Raziel, and a throne archon.]
Raziel: Let's get back to something you mentioned a few days ago... something about "the nobility of the spirit". Can I ask... what did you actually mean by that?
Throne Archon: I mean nobility, my lord. That special "something" that people are born. It is what makes them either good or evil, follow the ways of law or chaos, live rich or poor.
Raziel: I'm sorry... you said "born with"? Is that what you said? So, by that definition, can someone start out common but eventually become noble?
Throne Archon: Yes, that was what I said. And no, I do not think that can ever happen. At least, I've never heard of such a thing occuring anywhere.
Raziel: So then, could you possibly be a friend to someone who had say... committed a crime, or maybe they were poor?
Throne Archon: No! I doubt it. I mean... of course not!
Raziel: So you are saying that there is no hope of redemption for the weary sinner then?
Throne Archon: I'm sorry my lord, but I'm afraid I don't quite follow your question.
Raziel: Never mind. It's of little consequence, I suppose. Please, look out there, my friend. Look out over the Heavens, and tell me what you see?
Throne Archon: I see... I see a flight of silver dragons about to leave Mertion, as well as an army of dwarven petitioners marching in formation down below. Up there... there's also a number of astral-warjammers stationed up above, obviously waiting to get underway on some crucial mission of Goodness.
Raziel: And looking at these things, tell me, what do they represent to you?
Throne Archon: These things are the might of Law... the power of Good... the righteousness of the Seven Heavens. It is the force by which the we, the ultimate race of Goodness, can smite its enemies and create justice in the multiverse.
Raziel: Are you saying that justice is something that can be created?
Throne Archon: Of course. Yes, I am.
Raziel: How is that possible? Justice is justice, is it not? It has often been said that justice is the indefinable purpose of the Powers Above we look for in life. It's not something we can create.
Throne Archon: Please do not jest, my lord. Every non-power and mortal in Creation knows that justice is one of the spoils that comes with victory.
Raziel: So, might is right?
Throne Archon: It is the noble way, I believe?
Raziel: Says whom? According to whose definition?
Throne Archon: Zaphkiel. He says that nobility is often just blind confidence.
Raziel: And so, when you believe you are right, then anything you do is to be considered, right?
Throne Archon: Yes. Exactly. You have it my lord. Why do you shake you head that way, my lord?
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| The Cardinal |
Posted - 03 Dec 2005 : 21:41:06
Ah, but with the Idea of things falling naturally into disorder brings into being our Favortie subject; The Blood War.
In effect we once heard a plot hook (in a dragon magazine if we recall) about a Celestial Leading Armies of Devils against Demons. By the very nature it would be hard to see why a celestial could fall in that case, yet also so easy to see why, The Enemy of your Enemy does not make you and that Enemy the same or allies.
On a side note however, while it is more common (relatively anyways) for a Celestial to fall, it is not, a very common occurance. A minor example we use an old Game Called Ogre-Battle, in which good and bad choices (speficically 'honor' in batte of a sort) affected your alignment. Once a person (or in this case being) gets into a habit of behaving a particular way it is difficult to change radically, or even to slip a bit. Once one does it is then progressively easier, but it's taking that first step towards change (For Good or For Evil) which is the difficult thing to do.
Devils: Actually Devils do have a code of sorts, it's just... legal jargon that muddles things. More than simply falling into formation, it's all about agreements and promises, and the 'exact' terming of the nature of a contract. And when it comes to higher calling in what they do, compare them to their hate of Demons, and you'll find that they do follow a higher calling, they may be devious and underhanded, but they refuse to allow the Idea that Demons could beat them in terms of evil (Celestials have an easier time falling in with Devils than Demons). The manipulative backstabbing in the Court of Devils is less worse than the mass genocide of Demon Princes and their hosts against... well everyone.
There are (for Lack of a better term) atleast 3 fractions here, Celestials, Devil and Demons (IF you throw in the Yugoloths which is the NE between LE Devils and CE Demons you have 4)
*Takes a Breath* And in terms of Tanar'ri, Yes, the are the largest Family of Demons, There are displaced families of course, and depending on what sources you use, other minor hiearchies in the Abyss. As for the Baatezu, there are hints of another Race, a Elder race if you will, that was driven or roam the Underground of the.... Sixth Level of Hell, Ancient Baatorians as their called or hinted at. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 03 Dec 2005 : 21:07:13
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
It just seems wrong to me that celestials can fall(relatively) easy, while it takes a lot to redeem a fiend. It`s like the lower planes have a natural advantage.
Well, like I said, it's easier to fall than to ascend. Ascending involves going against your nature and walking a straight and narrow path. Falling happens by just slipping a bit, then a bit more and a bit more... Falling can happen while trying to walk the straight and narrow, just by making a bad decision.
*nods* Kind of like the basic fact of like that things naturally fall into disorder, not the other way around. To use a mundane example, you have to work to clean your room, but it doesn't take much effort (if any) to just let it get messy.
Being good just plain takes more effort than being bad, or simply just doing whatever feels right to you without considering the impact it will have on others. |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 01 Dec 2005 : 14:41:38
Well, hate to use an outside example - but look how truthfully hard it would be to adhere to the Jedi code - no attachments, no love, never having any self-motivated thoughts - wow.. that's hard stuff. That's the kind of stricture that Celestials have to go through. Easy to see where one might slip.
Fiends, on the other hand, don't have many codes that ask the same restrictions. Sure Devils may march in formations - but that's about as orderly as they come. They still maim, destroy, etc., just for themselves. No higher calling really.
So, in essence, evil outsiders do have the natural advantage to adding more to their ranks. That's why Solars are uber-powerful!
C-Fb |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Dec 2005 : 11:28:53
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
It just seems wrong to me that celestials can fall(relatively) easy, while it takes a lot to redeem a fiend. It`s like the lower planes have a natural advantage.
Well, like I said, it's easier to fall than to ascend. Ascending involves going against your nature and walking a straight and narrow path. Falling happens by just slipping a bit, then a bit more and a bit more... Falling can happen while trying to walk the straight and narrow, just by making a bad decision. |
| khorne |
Posted - 01 Dec 2005 : 09:48:40
It just seems wrong to me that celestials can fall(relatively) easy, while it takes a lot to redeem a fiend. It`s like the lower planes have a natural advantage. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 30 Nov 2005 : 15:00:03
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
It would be neat to see a fallen celestial come back to the side of light, though. Kind of like Darth Vader..
C-Fb
Anakin's fall to the Dark Side and his eventual redemption, taken together, is a very good example of how mortals may ultimately come to accept the truth of their evil ways and attempt to reform.
I don't think it's appropriate for celestials or fiends though. (Fixed) Alignments are a big issue when it comes to such concepts. Interestingly, the reduced focus on specific and fixed alignments in EBERRON suggests that the occurence of redeemed fiends in that setting might be slightly higher than in say, GREYHAWK. It really depends on how you, as the DM, define a fiend's alignment.
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| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 30 Nov 2005 : 14:37:23
I can't think of any off the top of my head. At least as far as 3E goes (don't dig through my 2E stuff much anymore). FR usually keeps to a very objective view of evil, making it difficult to see what a villian (especially one created that way) would come back to the light.
It would be neat to see a fallen celestial come back to the side of light, though. Kind of like Darth Vader..
C-Fb |
| Lady Kazandra |
Posted - 30 Nov 2005 : 13:22:02
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Falling is easy. Ascending, that's a trick.
Yep, which is why we very rarely heard of a "reformed" fiend.
Have there been any examples of "reformed" celestials in the Realms?
I already know about the various Planescape examples, but what about the Realms in 3e? Redeemed celestials are always a possibility, but I'm looking for concrete examples of this in 3e Forgotten Realms.
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| warlockco |
Posted - 30 Nov 2005 : 01:39:04
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Falling is easy. Ascending, that's a trick.
Yep, which is why we very rarely heard of a "reformed" fiend. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 30 Nov 2005 : 00:33:48
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Malkizid, Zariel and Triel are first-hand examples of a celestial gone bad. Is there any info ANYWHERE about a fiend gone good?(And I don`t mean cambions and the like. I am talking about full-blooded fiends)
Not so much in the Realms, but the 3rd party sourcebook -- Avatar's Handbook -- offers an intriguing take on redeemed fiends in the form of "Reforged".
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| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 29 Nov 2005 : 21:11:34
I think FR originally stayed away from such concepts because that's what made up Planescape's whole concept - alignments are almost secondary compared to the prevailing beliefs. But, since this board isn't about PS - I'll refrain from going further.
I don't think any fiend ascension has been logged in FR - though I am sure it has happened.
C-Fb
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| Winterfox |
Posted - 29 Nov 2005 : 18:11:29
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Malkizid, Zariel and Triel are first-hand examples of a celestial gone bad. Is there any info ANYWHERE about a fiend gone good?(And I don`t mean cambions and the like. I am talking about full-blooded fiends)
Not FR, but in Planescape: Torment, Fall-from-Grace is a succubus gone good. (Okay, her alignment's Lawful Neutral, but her inclinations are still very much compassionate.) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Nov 2005 : 18:00:42
Falling is easy. Ascending, that's a trick. |
| khorne |
Posted - 29 Nov 2005 : 17:03:58
quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
Just that fiends are pretty much Evil Incarnate.
Celestials are pretty much Good Incarnate, and they seem to Fall all the time. |
| Darkheyr |
Posted - 29 Nov 2005 : 10:25:58
Just that fiends are pretty much Evil Incarnate. Such things are a bit more complicated... If its done, it should be a major event. Probably one with its reasons rooted deep within millenia old history. |
| Vangelor |
Posted - 29 Nov 2005 : 10:23:32
I do not know of any Realms-specific example of a fiend gone good. But Elric growing a conscience, and the redeemed Drow concept exemplified by the followers of Eilistraee are reasonable approximations of theme. The reformation of a fiend could be the core of a campaign. If it hasn't been done, it should be. |
| Darkheyr |
Posted - 29 Nov 2005 : 10:12:50
Apart from the Pit Fiend forced to do good by use of its True Name in Hordes of the Underdark? None that I know of... |
| khorne |
Posted - 29 Nov 2005 : 10:05:34
Malkizid, Zariel and Triel are first-hand examples of a celestial gone bad. Is there any info ANYWHERE about a fiend gone good?(And I don`t mean cambions and the like. I am talking about full-blooded fiends) |
| Vangelor |
Posted - 29 Nov 2005 : 08:34:57
quote:
Originally posted by Rhezarnos
And how does one corrupt a celestial?
The idea that a Celestial can be corrupted, or a Fiend redeemed, depends upon the underlying concept of Free Will. A Celestial, good by nature, still can know temptation to do evil.
Pride (or as suggested above, "hubris") probably tops the list of temptations. One does not want to overlook lust as a motive, either. Depends on the Celestial, the god they serve (if any), and their weaknesses.
I could draw analogies from real-world religions, but don't want to offend. The legend of the nephelim does come to mind. |
| Darkheyr |
Posted - 29 Nov 2005 : 08:16:08
Yes, Zariel I meant. I totally forgot about Triel... Silly me.
I need to busy myself more with my planar lore...*goes back reading* |
| The Sage |
Posted - 29 Nov 2005 : 00:03:47
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
I believe a former member of the Lords of the Nine was a fallen celestial as well.(Zariel?)
Your referring to the archon Triel actually, who is now Baalzebul... Lord of the Seventh.
Haven`t you missed the one Bel, Lord of the First keeps imprisoned? It`s his predecessor, Zariel, and I`ve heard somewhere that she is a fallen celestial.
Bel and Zariel are an intriguing case. Arguably, they could both be called the Lord of the First.
'Technically' is a dangerous word in Baator, since baatezu are most concerned with being technically right than anything else. But Bel is free to act, and he is slowly getting rid of Zariel. He is certainly the power of the layer, not Zariel - although one wonders if she can still influence others without Bel noticing.
Still, Zariel's best chance of escape lies with Bel's quick rise through the ranks and his service under the Dark Eight. Many baatezu don't appreciate those that don't know their place, and some of the older Lords don't like Bel much - too ambitious, too unpredictable... and too much under the Dark Eight's heel, and by extension under the control of the Lord of the Ninth.
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| khorne |
Posted - 28 Nov 2005 : 18:19:58
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
I believe a former member of the Lords of the Nine was a fallen celestial as well.(Zariel?)
Your referring to the archon Triel actually, who is now Baalzebul... Lord of the Seventh.
Haven`t you missed the one Bel, Lord of the First keeps imprisoned? It`s his predecessor, Zariel, and I`ve heard somewhere that she is a fallen celestial. |
| Vendrin |
Posted - 27 Nov 2005 : 08:35:09
quote:
Originally posted by Mystery_Man
quote:
Originally posted by Rhezarnos
And how does one corrupt a celestial?
Hubris.
Or in other cases for lawful good archons a slow decline from showing others how to obey the law and goodness to pushing them to do such and finally to forcing them, and eventually goodness gets lost along the way, a bit of law remains but mostly the will to control is all that stays. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 26 Nov 2005 : 00:18:50
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
>>Quasits are the CE counterpart to the LE imps. And they're not >>really devils and demons... at least, not in the truest sense of >>the word. They are connected to the fiendish races yes, but not >>enough for them to be considered a part of the races like gelugons >>or vrocks.
They aren't baatezu or tanar'ri, but they are most definitely demons and devils respectively (thus, they come under the demon and devil entries in the MM). They just don't get the baatezu racial traits.
Phillip aka Sleyvas
While that is true, traditionally, I still view demons and devils as they were/are portrayed in the PLANESCAPE material... which means that imps and quasits aren't as closely related to fiends as they now are in 3e.
I don't like that particular aspect of the racial traits in 3e, because it seems to decrease a lot of the genetic diversity that we know is inherent on the planes. Therefore, I'll continue to view imps and quasits as individuals planar creatures.
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| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 25 Nov 2005 : 15:46:00
True, that would be the best way to describe them. It prevents them from labeling everything as a Tanar'ri. And it also helps to complete distinctify the differences between them.
C-Fb |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Nov 2005 : 15:22:22
>>Quasits are the CE counterpart to the LE imps. And they're not >>really devils and demons... at least, not in the truest sense of >>the word. They are connected to the fiendish races yes, but not >>enough for them to be considered a part of the races like gelugons >>or vrocks.
They aren't baatezu or tanar'ri, but they are most definitely demons and devils respectively (thus, they come under the demon and devil entries in the MM). They just don't get the baatezu racial traits.
Phillip aka Sleyvas
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| Mystery_Man |
Posted - 24 Nov 2005 : 15:18:21
quote:
Originally posted by Rhezarnos
And how does one corrupt a celestial?
Hubris. |
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