| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| The Freak |
Posted - 15 Oct 2005 : 08:28:03
Greetings, everyone, can I know the story behind Bane, Myrkul, Bhaal ascension to power before the Time of Troubles, for I lacked the neccesary books to find it, so any takes behind their ascension is greatly appreciated.
Also, why was Jergal, Lord of the End of Everything and rumored co-head of the Pantheon that time grew so bored that he willingly give up his position and portfolios? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Apr 2010 : 17:28:07
Jakk, I'll have to get back to you on those queries early tomorrow [my time]. I'm kinda swamped at the moment. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 21 Apr 2010 : 16:21:46
Sage... a list of said sources would be very helpful. I'm familiar with the main references (particularly those in F&A and VGtATM), but it would help me greatly to have a list of all significant sources for the Dawn Cataclysm in one place (ideally this scroll). I'm working from the 3.x books and what few pre-3E PDFs I've been able to find... which wasn't many "before Wizbro closed off that stream of revenue to themselves" (quoting myself from elsewhere in the 'Keep here). I'm really hoping to be able to get the rest of my books moved this coming summer... but I was hoping to do that last summer, and the summer before, as well. 
Also: I agree with your comment on flexibility of interpretation; that's why I proposed the prophecy solution. However, as Wooly pointed out, there is no such prophecy anywhere in print, at least not that either of us is aware of.
Edit 3: One more quote:
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
<snip>
I'm starting to think that maybe too much emphasis is being placed on the word 'presage'. Specifically, 'presaged' does not always equate with the idea of temporal immediacy. In other words... the DC may not have occurred just before the fall of Myth Drannor. But rather, it occurred quite some time before the fall of Myth Drannor. Which kinda matches up with the DC reference in the entry for the 'Scepter of Savras' in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical [pg. 113]:- "After the fall of Netheril and before the founding of Myth Drannor, the gods of the Realms battled in the Dawn Cataclysm ... "
This particular reference could even possibly suggest that the DC occurred well before the founding of the City of Song itself. And given that both F&A and VGtATM were published in the same year [1996], there really isn't so much of an issue about newer lore trumping old with respect to dating the Dawn Cataclysm. Both sources, thus, again hint at the difficulty of finding an actual and confirmed date-base for the Dawn Cataclysm in the Realmslore.
I found this reference in my friend's hardcopy of VGtATM... and I'm inclined to agree, Sage... from the passage you quoted above, we have a thousand-year window, and as we've both pointed out, Event A heralding Event B does not necessitate any temporal proximity between the two. After all, IRL, the sparing of one of Oliver Cromwell's ancestors from execution during Edward Longshanks's Scottish wars presaged the birth of Oliver and, eventually, the short-lived English Commonwealth... and those two events were four centuries apart. IMHO, Longshanks picked the wrong time to be lenient, but that wouldn't be known for another 400+ years. 
One last comment, somewhat OT: Sage, did you get my PM regarding e-lore? I hadn't heard back from you, and I didn't want to assume "no response" to be the same as a response in the negative. Thanks!
Edit 2: Another thought just occurred to me:
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
<chop>
Plus, we know that Tyche was still around when Elminster was a kid, and Tyche was sundered during the Dawn Cataclysm. That means it was centuries after the Fall of Netheril.
We also know that her church didn't split until 8th Century DR -- in other words, after 700 DR. Sure, there's the whole "outside of time" explanation (which I have never liked; how can something happen when time isn't passing?), but I find it highly unlikely that the two luck deities would have wasted any time segregating their churches.
<snip>
How about this: The deities split at some point (whenever that is), but their worshippers don't learn about it until some other point. Normally, I would ridicule this theory immediately, but it's completely consistent with the portfolio in question here: luck. The worshippers are still praying to an entity (whose two opposing successors still exist), and are still receiving their spells; what if said two successors both succumbed to the whimsy of their portfolio and let their churches figure things out on their own? This means it could have taken until up to 800 DR for the faith to (a) figure out that something is different in the first place; (b) figure out exactly what is different; and (c) split and restructure their churches.
I can understand the thought that two deities of opposing alignment like Tymora and Beshaba would want their churches separated ASAP, but the alternative is that not doing so, and letting luck dictate the pace of the revelation, is more consistent with their portfolios.
Edit:
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Didn't Cyric smack Mystra with a stick? Well the rest is history as they say
Thats right, its a metaphor.
Maybe we shouldn't be so literal with what we read about the Gods and their interactions with each other. Maybe Selune zapping Tyche was a metaphorical event.
I like this idea, Brimstone... but it depends on how the description of the event is worded in the sources we have (none of which I have at my fingertips right now). Sage? Wooly? Your thoughts? |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 21 Apr 2010 : 16:20:13
Didn't Cyric smack Mystra with a stick? Well the rest is history as they say
Thats right, its a metaphor.
Maybe we shouldn't be so literal with what we read about the Gods and their interactions with each other. Maybe Selune zapping Tyche was a metaphorical event. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Apr 2010 : 13:17:41
The thing is, though, the connection between Myth Drannor and the Dawn Cataclysm is only one interpretation. As I indicated above earlier, other sources suggest the possibility that the supposed connection between the two might not be so definitive as we think. Thus, I believe we ought to be careful about being so "sure" that the connection is the be all end of this part of the discussion.
If anything, the reality of those others sources actually only further serve to murky the waters so to speak, rather than make things clearer. And given that this is a divine event we're talking about... it often pays to be somewhat flexible with our interpretations of such wording. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Apr 2010 : 11:48:39
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I lost track of this scroll for a couple of days... some interesting arguments have been made... and I have an answer for Wooly, basically just rewording what The Sage has already said, I think: The Dawn Cataclysm may have presaged the fall of Myth Drannor in the sense that it was the catalyst for a vaguely-worded prophecy about "a war between the gods heralding the fall of a great realm of unity" ... or something to that effect. Just because Myth Drannor may not have been around yet, doesn't mean it couldn't have been the subject of a vaguely-worded prophecy that turned out true. Since we're talking about Myth Drannor, there's the prophecy about the good red dragon that caused the release of the nycaloths, as just one other example. IRL, look at how vague Nostradamus' writings are, and how many of them have been matched with actual historical events. The key to being a good prophet is the ability to be meaningfully vague. 
If there was a prophecy, it's not been mentioned anywhere. And either way, it's difficult for me to see how the DC could be linked to Myth Drannor's fall if it wasn't around when the DC happened... The connection has been made, more than once, so there has to be something there.
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Edit: Also... what if the event that caused Tyche's sundering happened during the Dawn Cataclysm, but her actual sundering took years, or even centuries, to complete? We're talking about splitting a god in two, not combining a little bit of one god and a little bit of another to make a third. (btw, I'm talking about Selune, Shar, and Mystryl, not divine reproductive biology)
From the description, Selûne walked up and saw that Tyche was corrupted, zapped her, and then we had two new deities. No slow sundering, it was an instant event. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 21 Apr 2010 : 06:35:48
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm starting to think that maybe too much emphasis is being placed on the word 'presage'. Specifically, 'presaged' does not always equate with the idea of temporal immediacy. In other words... the DC may not have occurred just before the fall of Myth Drannor. But rather, it occurred quite some time before the fall of Myth Drannor. Which kinda matches up with the DC reference in the entry for the 'Scepter of Savras' in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical [pg. 113]:- "After the fall of Netheril and before the founding of Myth Drannor, the gods of the Realms battled in the Dawn Cataclysm ... "
This particular reference could even possibly suggest that the DC occurred well before the founding of the City of Song itself. And given that both F&A and VGtATM were published in the same year [1996], there really isn't so much of an issue about newer lore trumping old with respect to dating the Dawn Cataclysm. Both sources, thus, again hint at the difficulty of finding an actual and confirmed date-base for the Dawn Cataclysm in the Realmslore.
You know, I get all that, but I'm simply not seeing how we can make any kind of connection betwixt Myth Drannor and the DC if the former wasn't around during the latter.
I lost track of this scroll for a couple of days... some interesting arguments have been made... and I have an answer for Wooly, basically just rewording what The Sage has already said, I think: The Dawn Cataclysm may have presaged the fall of Myth Drannor in the sense that it was the catalyst for a vaguely-worded prophecy about "a war between the gods heralding the fall of a great realm of unity" ... or something to that effect. Just because Myth Drannor may not have been around yet, doesn't mean it couldn't have been the subject of a vaguely-worded prophecy that turned out true. Since we're talking about Myth Drannor, there's the prophecy about the good red dragon that caused the release of the nycaloths, as just one other example. IRL, look at how vague Nostradamus' writings are, and how many of them have been matched with actual historical events. The key to being a good prophet is the ability to be meaningfully vague.
Edit: Also... what if the event that caused Tyche's sundering happened during the Dawn Cataclysm, but her actual sundering took years, or even centuries, to complete? We're talking about splitting a god in two, not combining a little bit of one god and a little bit of another to make a third. (btw, I'm talking about Selune, Shar, and Mystryl, not divine reproductive biology) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 05:51:13
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You know, I get all that, but I'm simply not seeing how we can make any kind of connection betwixt Myth Drannor and the DC if the former wasn't around during the latter.
I suppose that's why the "outside of time" explanation tends to carry some degree of validity for some scribes. It leaves plenty of "room" for you to place the causes and effects wherever you like -- and even allows effects, maybe, to precede the causes.
And it would seem to reflect, again, Eric's own position on dating the DC -- given his direct involvement with both F&A and VGtATM.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 05:05:49
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm starting to think that maybe too much emphasis is being placed on the word 'presage'. Specifically, 'presaged' does not always equate with the idea of temporal immediacy. In other words... the DC may not have occurred just before the fall of Myth Drannor. But rather, it occurred quite some time before the fall of Myth Drannor. Which kinda matches up with the DC reference in the entry for the 'Scepter of Savras' in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical [pg. 113]:- "After the fall of Netheril and before the founding of Myth Drannor, the gods of the Realms battled in the Dawn Cataclysm ... "
This particular reference could even possibly suggest that the DC occurred well before the founding of the City of Song itself. And given that both F&A and VGtATM were published in the same year [1996], there really isn't so much of an issue about newer lore trumping old with respect to dating the Dawn Cataclysm. Both sources, thus, again hint at the difficulty of finding an actual and confirmed date-base for the Dawn Cataclysm in the Realmslore.
You know, I get all that, but I'm simply not seeing how we can make any kind of connection betwixt Myth Drannor and the DC if the former wasn't around during the latter.
Besides, to me the biggest thing narrowing down the timeframe is that we know roughly when Tyche's church split, and we know that she was split during (though not necessarily as a result of) the Dawn Cataclysm. That one fact narrows it down more than anything else -- for me, at least. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Apr 2010 : 02:11:04
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The biggest problem with setting the Dawn Cataclysm so early is that there is more than one reference to it presaging the fall of Myth Drannor -- so Myth Drannor had to have been around.
Plus, we know that Tyche was still around when Elminster was a kid, and Tyche was sundered during the Dawn Cataclysm. That means it was centuries after the Fall of Netheril.
We also know that her church didn't split until 8th Century DR -- in other words, after 700 DR. Sure, there's the whole "outside of time" explanation (which I have never liked; how can something happen when time isn't passing?), but I find it highly unlikely that the two luck deities would have wasted any time segregating their churches.
That's why I think the pre-Azuth reference for the Dawn Cataclysm is in error, and that it happened between 700 and 712 (or 714) DR.
I'm getting reacquainted with the points cited above... and I was always aware of the first point (re: Myth Drannor), but I don't recall ever reading anything specific about that connection; was there something about the Dawn Cataclysm that made the Fall of Myth Drannor (a) possible or (b) necessary, and if so, where's the lore? I'm slogging through older PDFs right now, but it's slow going; I read much more quickly on paper (take that how you will), but I'm not going to print out PDFs just because I don't have my originals with me. 
There's no definite connection between the two, just passing references that say the DC presaged or heralded the fall of Myth Drannor. I'll be dipped if I can find any of the "presaged" references right now, but Faiths & Avatars says "heralded" three times -- like in this line from page 166, under Tymora's entry: "Tymora inherited Tyche’s grace and kindness when that goddess split into two beings in the Dawn Cataclysm, a war among the gods that long preceded the Time of Troubles and is said to have heralded the fall of Myth Drannor." The other two references in that tome say much the same thing.
I'm starting to think that maybe too much emphasis is being placed on the word 'presage'. Specifically, 'presaged' does not always equate with the idea of temporal immediacy. In other words... the DC may not have occurred just before the fall of Myth Drannor. But rather, it occurred quite some time before the fall of Myth Drannor. Which kinda matches up with the DC reference in the entry for the 'Scepter of Savras' in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical [pg. 113]:- "After the fall of Netheril and before the founding of Myth Drannor, the gods of the Realms battled in the Dawn Cataclysm ... "
This particular reference could even possibly suggest that the DC occurred well before the founding of the City of Song itself. And given that both F&A and VGtATM were published in the same year [1996], there really isn't so much of an issue about newer lore trumping old with respect to dating the Dawn Cataclysm. Both sources, thus, again hint at the difficulty of finding an actual and confirmed date-base for the Dawn Cataclysm in the Realmslore.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Apr 2010 : 18:16:50
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The biggest problem with setting the Dawn Cataclysm so early is that there is more than one reference to it presaging the fall of Myth Drannor -- so Myth Drannor had to have been around.
Plus, we know that Tyche was still around when Elminster was a kid, and Tyche was sundered during the Dawn Cataclysm. That means it was centuries after the Fall of Netheril.
We also know that her church didn't split until 8th Century DR -- in other words, after 700 DR. Sure, there's the whole "outside of time" explanation (which I have never liked; how can something happen when time isn't passing?), but I find it highly unlikely that the two luck deities would have wasted any time segregating their churches.
That's why I think the pre-Azuth reference for the Dawn Cataclysm is in error, and that it happened between 700 and 712 (or 714) DR.
I'm getting reacquainted with the points cited above... and I was always aware of the first point (re: Myth Drannor), but I don't recall ever reading anything specific about that connection; was there something about the Dawn Cataclysm that made the Fall of Myth Drannor (a) possible or (b) necessary, and if so, where's the lore? I'm slogging through older PDFs right now, but it's slow going; I read much more quickly on paper (take that how you will), but I'm not going to print out PDFs just because I don't have my originals with me.
There's no definite connection between the two, just passing references that say the DC presaged or heralded the fall of Myth Drannor. I'll be dipped if I can find any of the "presaged" references right now, but Faiths & Avatars says "heralded" three times -- like in this line from page 166, under Tymora's entry: "Tymora inherited Tyche’s grace and kindness when that goddess split into two beings in the Dawn Cataclysm, a war among the gods that long preceded the Time of Troubles and is said to have heralded the fall of Myth Drannor." The other two references in that tome say much the same thing.
The schism in the church is from the 3E FRCS, page 264. That source also says the DC may be linked to other events in that same time frame, such as the founding of the Harpers (the meeting in the Dancing Place was in 720 DR), the fall of the second Untheric empire (680 DR), and the arrival of Xvim in Westgate (710 DR). |
| Jakk |
Posted - 18 Apr 2010 : 17:14:57
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The biggest problem with setting the Dawn Cataclysm so early is that there is more than one reference to it presaging the fall of Myth Drannor -- so Myth Drannor had to have been around.
Plus, we know that Tyche was still around when Elminster was a kid, and Tyche was sundered during the Dawn Cataclysm. That means it was centuries after the Fall of Netheril.
We also know that her church didn't split until 8th Century DR -- in other words, after 700 DR. Sure, there's the whole "outside of time" explanation (which I have never liked; how can something happen when time isn't passing?), but I find it highly unlikely that the two luck deities would have wasted any time segregating their churches.
That's why I think the pre-Azuth reference for the Dawn Cataclysm is in error, and that it happened between 700 and 712 (or 714) DR.
I'm getting reacquainted with the points cited above... and I was always aware of the first point (re: Myth Drannor), but I don't recall ever reading anything specific about that connection; was there something about the Dawn Cataclysm that made the Fall of Myth Drannor (a) possible or (b) necessary, and if so, where's the lore? I'm slogging through older PDFs right now, but it's slow going; I read much more quickly on paper (take that how you will), but I'm not going to print out PDFs just because I don't have my originals with me. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 16 Apr 2010 : 01:27:08
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
GK is reading this with interest, never fear.
So much so that I'm really tempted to give the "DC" a go. That said, any write-up I did would still leave enough FR wiggle room for writers to make of it what they want. I'm a big believer in "sages say", "most loremasters agree", "it would appear that ..." etc.
I'm a big fan of this approach too... it probably has to do with my solidly Empiricist philosophical leanings; the Scientific Method is the best tool we have, but all it can give us is what might be true until new evidence comes along to refute it. That's why I'd like NDAs to loosen up over time. Even if the publisher still has plans for the lore or the object thereof, letting a few teasers slip every decade or so only helps build interest.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I did some lore connection jottings the other day on some of the more interesting lore points along the way and realised that like the invasion of Russia, this might get a lot bigger than I thought at first instance.
I'll keep you posted.
-- George Krashos
Bigger... how so? A broader time frame, more involved parties, wider-reaching effects, some other dimension (possibly literally on that score) or some combination of the above?
Interest has been piqued... and I have another development for you; see the "Pyramids of Ascore" scroll in a few minutes for details. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 15 Apr 2010 : 06:38:41
GK is reading this with interest, never fear.
So much so that I'm really tempted to give the "DC" a go. That said, any write-up I did would still leave enough FR wiggle room for writers to make of it what they want. I'm a big believer in "sages say", "most loremasters agree", "it would appear that ..." etc.
I did some lore connection jottings the other day on some of the more interesting lore points along the way and realised that like the invasion of Russia, this might get a lot bigger than I thought at first instance.
I'll keep you posted.
-- George Krashos
|
| Jakk |
Posted - 15 Apr 2010 : 05:03:17
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
There is of course, the possibility that the Dawn Cataclysm and its setting in the timeline are a fluke, along the lines of the "Kingdom of Impiltur" being founded in the 900s, and the Obarskyrs coming from Impiltur to Cormyr in 26.
Impiltur was easy to fix. The DC? Not so much.
-- George Krashos
I wish I'd noticed that I had two related discussions happening in two completely separate scrolls. The following is from this scroll:
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Posted - 14 Apr 2010 : 04:56:43
The Dusk portfolio was Myrkul's, yes, but the timeline doesn't add up.
Fall of Netheril (Year of Sundered Webs, -339 DR): Amaunator begins to fade; Lathander apparently rises to pre-eminence in his place.
ToT (Year of Shadows, 1358 DR): Myrkul dies, having apparently never held equivalent status to Amaunator or Lathander... although the year name is appropriate in that sense.
After the fall of Netheril, we have dawn succeeding highsun. That doesn't happen unless the natural order has been mucked around with. Amaunator succeeding Lathander is a naturally expected succession based on how the world (regardless of which one) works; highsun follows dawn. The apparent "skipping over" of Myrkul in the published lore from the period following Netheril's fall (which only references Amaunator and Lathander) suggests to me that the Dawn Cataclysm can be placed within the timestream, and that one of its consequences was the "dusk-free day" when the rightful place of Dusk (and Myrkul) in the cycle of the trio was usurped by Dawn (and Lathander). This might also have to do with the timing of the Dark Three's ascension to divinity, as well; if the Dark Three ascended after the Year of Sundered Webs, Jergal may have simply refused to step in as the Lord of Dusk after Amaunator's fall, thus precipitating both the Dawn Cataclysm and the ascension of the Dark Three; Jergal seems to have had enough of his jobs at that time by all of the accounts we have available to us.
Hopefully I've explained myself adequately here; the bit about the Dark Three was something of an epiphany as I was typing... and it just occurred to me now that this might be the other side of the origin of the name "Dark Three"... they are, in some ways literally, the Children of Dusk, even though only Myrkul succeeded to that particular portfolio. To summarize:
1) Amaunator falls with the collapse of Netheril;
2) Jergal in his ennui declines to ascend as the Lord of Dusk;
3) Lathander, the Morninglord, ascends out of sequence, causing (in some way) the Dawn Cataclysm;
4) The mortals who would become the Dark Three find Jergal and claim their prizes, but too late to preserve the natural order and prevent the Dawn Cataclysm.
These events happen over the course of several years, I would assume; from what I've read, Amaunator's fall was very gradual, not sudden, and it was only Lathander's ascension that was in any way abrupt or immediate in its effects.
...and even Lathander's ascension can be seen as gradual, as pointed out by The Sage... whose revised timeline fits well with my theory as well...
Anyway, make of this what you will, fellow scribes; I personally think it's a masterpiece on a theoretical level, but I wasn't able to fact-check it thoroughly due to my current absence from sources pre-3E apart from the Grand History. 
I'm particularly interested in GK's thoughts on this idea, and if any of you have past lore citations that I may not have taken into account with this, let me know. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 13 Apr 2010 : 01:38:22
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
There is of course, the possibility that the Dawn Cataclysm and its setting in the timeline are a fluke, along the lines of the "Kingdom of Impiltur" being founded in the 900s, and the Obarskyrs coming from Impiltur to Cormyr in 26.
Impiltur was easy to fix. The DC? Not so much.
-- George Krashos
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Apr 2010 : 00:39:24
quote:
Originally posted by ZeshinX
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
By sharing a church with servants of a now-hated deity? 
Different roads to the same destination.
I imagine both churches would make every effort to conceal the fact they were once the "same" church.
The Tymorans would certainly never want to be associated with an evil deity and church (even the insinuation could be considered blasphemous to their faith).
The Beshabans likely had the same reasons (not wanting to be associated with a bunch of happy-goody-two-shoes).
Exactly. Plus both deities are particularly known for interacting with their followers -- not necessarily popping in for tea every third day, but at least actively influencing the lives of those who call on/spurn them. With their enmity for each other and the way they interact with their followers, I'm thinking that within months of the split, the churches were beginning to schism. It's the only thing that tracks with what we know. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 22:34:59
Right.
It could have taken the Clergy awhile to figure out what had happened.
Then came the split. (I have a dirty mind! )
After all who can really know the mind of the Divine.
Who knows...
|
| ZeshinX |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 18:10:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
By sharing a church with servants of a now-hated deity?
Different roads to the same destination.
I imagine both churches would make every effort to conceal the fact they were once the "same" church.
The Tymorans would certainly never want to be associated with an evil deity and church (even the insinuation could be considered blasphemous to their faith).
The Beshabans likely had the same reasons (not wanting to be associated with a bunch of happy-goody-two-shoes). |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 13:44:29
Stranger things have been known to happen. |
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 13:00:21
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
The Priesthoods at the time could have tried to suppress all knowledge of it. I find it an interesting concept.
By sharing a church with servants of a now-hated deity?
Maybe the liquidation of the common assets dragged on in court ("I want custody of the dog!"). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 12:00:52
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
The Priesthoods at the time could have tried to suppress all knowledge of it. I find it an interesting concept.
By sharing a church with servants of a now-hated deity? |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 11:41:14
The Priesthoods at the time could have tried to suppress all knowledge of it. I find it an interesting concept. |
| Thauramarth |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 11:32:16
There is of course, the possibility that the Dawn Cataclysm and its setting in the timeline are a fluke, along the lines of the "Kingdom of Impiltur" being founded in the 900s, and the Obarskyrs coming from Impiltur to Cormyr in 26. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 05:44:53
I'm content with either interpretation, really. And I've suggested both in my Realms. Your position, and the possibility that the split occurred much earlier -- taking awhile for this knowledge to disseminate and propagate among Tyche's faithful. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 04:46:28
Well, my biggest reason for putting it in the 700-712 timeframe is the schism in Tyche's church. We've seen some of the games deities play against each other. To me, there is no conceivable reason that the schism wouldn't immediately follow Tyche's split. Even for deities, three centuries is a long time to wait before establishing your own separate identity. I can't see a deity -- particularly Beshaba -- waiting a year before saying she was no longer Tyche, much less a century.
And while I know that there's really nothing that says Tyche's split was a result of the DC, we do know it happened during the DC.
And that's why I'm quite comfortable with sticking with 700-712, or 700-714, as the timeframe. Any other time we pick goes against multiple facts -- the 700-712(714) guesstimate only goes against one fact. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 12 Apr 2010 : 01:23:28
Based on some *facts,*, various possible dates have been thrown into the debate. It was dated once [161 DR], in a poster handed out a GenCon -- the seriously flawed [and now largely ignored] "Netheril Timeline" handout as I recall. Another possibility suggests that it occurred somewhere between 700 DR and 712 DR.
However, it's been said that Tyche division had little to do with the actual Dawn Cataclysm. Which is partly why I'm not really a proponent of this theory anymore. I don't believe we should be reading too much into this. In fact, I think it may mean exactly what it means. After all, Krash did personally re-write that particular section in the FRCS. And before the re-write, that section was ALL about the DC. But because the designers didn't want to ruin the endless debates and threads that were to come, they changed it a little and wrote it up differently.
A third option, and the one I had previously been leaning toward, is the theory put forth by Eric Boyd. He first suggested that the Dawn Cataclysm happened outside the timestream and, thus, cannot be properly dated. [But, unlike Wooly, I think the "outside of time" theory still has some validity. And any Doctor Who can appreciate how such thinking can be applied to the concept of the space-time continuum in the Realms.]
My current theory however, based on some recent private communications with an FR designer, suggests it may have occurred somewhere in the period between 200 and 400 DR. With the actual ramifications of the event starting around two or three centuries later -- about the time of Myth Drannor's fall. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Apr 2010 : 21:46:56
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
One of my Realmsian pet projects has been determining exactly when Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul ascended to divinity (and when the Dawn Cataclysm happened, and the two may be connected). A recent post in another scroll ("Was Bhaal right for the Moonshae Trilogy?") by Thauramarth inspired me to revisit this, so I'm resurrecting this 4.5-year-old scroll that seems to tie into my thoughts on the matter.
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
I was inserting the timeline for the Moonshae trilogy from the Forgotten Realms Atlas in my overall FR timeline documents, and all of a sudden, I had an epiphany. <snip> ... if we want to get historical, if Kazgoroth was ever affiliated with Bhaal, Bhaal must have become a deity prior to 201 DR, when Cymrych High cleaned Kazgoroth's clock, and my gut feeling has always been that the ascension of Bhaal, Bane, and Myrkul had not yet occurred at that time (and let's not revisit that particular discussion, shall we?)
<chop>
At Thauramarth's request, I'm not revisiting this particular discussion in his scroll, so I'm reposting this reply to this scroll which is more appropriate.
What follows are my point-form musings on the subject
- timeframe for Dawn Cataclysm:
- - claiming that the event happens outside the timestream amounts to calling it an in-universe retcon; that would make it not a change, but the way things have always been, but we know that Amaunator was around before Lathander, so the event must have a specific definable time of occurrence;
- - fact: it happens before Azuth ascends to divinity;
- - strong suspicion: Azuth ascends to divinity in 136 DR (the year of ascension of the first Magister named in "Secrets of the Magister"; it could be earlier, but we know it happens after the Year of Sundered Webs, because his superior is named as Mystra, not Mystryl);
- - strong suspicion following from this: the Dawn Cataclysm happens in and/or just after the Year of Sundered Webs (-339 DR), while the Torilian pantheon is reeling from the death of Mystryl and ascension of Mystra, the death of Karsus, and (likely) the deaths of other forgotten lesser powers;
- Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul: year of ascension to divinity:
- - fact: the Dark Three destroyed Borem in the Year of Boiling Moats (-359 DR);
- - fact: the Dark Three defeated Haask and Hargut in the Year of Craven Words (-350 DR);
- - fact: the Dark Three entered the Gray Waste and the Castle of Bone to claim the Bone Throne from Jergal some time (but probably not a great deal of time) after this;
- - speculation: the Dark Three likely ascended either just before or just after the fall of Netheril in the Year of Sundered Webs (-339 DR);
So, to respond to Thauramarth, yes, Bhaal was very likely a deity before 201 DR... maybe not *long* before, but it's certainly possible.
If anyone has anything else in the way of Realmslore evidence that I'm missing in my theory, please let me know. I'm using Google and what few pre-3E PDFs I have to do my old-lore research at the moment, so omissions are very likely to occur.
The biggest problem with setting the Dawn Cataclysm so early is that there is more than one reference to it presaging the fall of Myth Drannor -- so Myth Drannor had to have been around.
Plus, we know that Tyche was still around when Elminster was a kid, and Tyche was sundered during the Dawn Cataclysm. That means it was centuries after the Fall of Netheril.
We also know that her church didn't split until 8th Century DR -- in other words, after 700 DR. Sure, there's the whole "outside of time" explanation (which I have never liked; how can something happen when time isn't passing?), but I find it highly unlikely that the two luck deities would have wasted any time segregating their churches.
That's why I think the pre-Azuth reference for the Dawn Cataclysm is in error, and that it happened between 700 and 712 (or 714) DR. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 11 Apr 2010 : 20:33:08
One of my Realmsian pet projects has been determining exactly when Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul ascended to divinity (and when the Dawn Cataclysm happened, and the two may be connected). A recent post in another scroll ("Was Bhaal right for the Moonshae Trilogy?") by Thauramarth inspired me to revisit this, so I'm resurrecting this 4.5-year-old scroll that seems to tie into my thoughts on the matter.
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
I was inserting the timeline for the Moonshae trilogy from the Forgotten Realms Atlas in my overall FR timeline documents, and all of a sudden, I had an epiphany. <snip> ... if we want to get historical, if Kazgoroth was ever affiliated with Bhaal, Bhaal must have become a deity prior to 201 DR, when Cymrych High cleaned Kazgoroth's clock, and my gut feeling has always been that the ascension of Bhaal, Bane, and Myrkul had not yet occurred at that time (and let's not revisit that particular discussion, shall we?)
<chop>
At Thauramarth's request, I'm not revisiting this particular discussion in his scroll, so I'm reposting this reply to this scroll which is more appropriate.
What follows are my point-form musings on the subject
- timeframe for Dawn Cataclysm:
- - claiming that the event happens outside the timestream amounts to calling it an in-universe retcon; that would make it not a change, but the way things have always been, but we know that Amaunator was around before Lathander, so the event must have a specific definable time of occurrence;
- - fact: it happens before Azuth ascends to divinity;
- - strong suspicion: Azuth ascends to divinity in 136 DR (the year of ascension of the first Magister named in "Secrets of the Magister"; it could be earlier, but we know it happens after the Year of Sundered Webs, because his superior is named as Mystra, not Mystryl);
- - strong suspicion following from this: the Dawn Cataclysm happens in and/or just after the Year of Sundered Webs (-339 DR), while the Torilian pantheon is reeling from the death of Mystryl and ascension of Mystra, the death of Karsus, and (likely) the deaths of other forgotten lesser powers;
- Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul: year of ascension to divinity:
- - fact: the Dark Three destroyed Borem in the Year of Boiling Moats (-359 DR);
- - fact: the Dark Three defeated Haask and Hargut in the Year of Craven Words (-350 DR);
- - fact: the Dark Three entered the Gray Waste and the Castle of Bone to claim the Bone Throne from Jergal some time (but probably not a great deal of time) after this;
- - speculation: the Dark Three likely ascended either just before or just after the fall of Netheril in the Year of Sundered Webs (-339 DR);
So, to respond to Thauramarth, yes, Bhaal was very likely a deity before 201 DR... maybe not *long* before, but it's certainly possible.
If anyone has anything else in the way of Realmslore evidence that I'm missing in my theory, please let me know. I'm using Google and what few pre-3E PDFs I have to do my old-lore research at the moment, so omissions are very likely to occur. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 16 Oct 2005 : 08:38:59
The story strongly suggests that Jergal was ready to pass on his portfolios to someone else. One might infer he was weary and posessed of a deep ennui.
My pet theory though is that it was a calculated ploy to surrender his portfolio of Dusk. As Eric Boyd has intimated, the sun god in Faerûn seems to manifest as cyclical incarnations of a dawn aspect, a noon aspect, and a dusk aspect. Each aspect holds prominence for a time, and then dies off, and the one waiting in the wings becomes prominent for awhile before the next aspect is born.
Amaunator, the last noon aspect of the sun, faded from power after the fall of Netheril. When he died, Lathander the Morninglord was born (or arose somehow) to take Amaunator's place. As holder of the dusk portfolio, Jergal's power was on the rise in those post-Netherese days.
But even as his power waxed to it's greatest point, he knew that his time would one day come to an end and he would have to die. By passing on his portfolio of Dusk, he could break out of the cycle and avoid his own fate.
Myrkul got the portfolio of dusk and was killed in Jergal's stead. I think it possible that that was Jergal's intent all along, to have Myrkul take his fall for him.
Now perhaps Jergal has settled into his lesser role as seneschal of the dead and likes it just fine. Maybe he has no greater aspirations. However, I would not be surprised at all if Jergal had a long term plan to reassume the dusk portfolio and resume his position as a greater god some day now that Myrkul is dead.
Only time will tell if Jergal will remain comfortable as Kelemvor's seneschal or if Jergal has greater ambitions.
|
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 16 Oct 2005 : 06:36:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Doesn't that seem a little too easy, though? I wonder what secrets the grasshopper (as I refer to Jergal) has...
Why would he bother defending himself with hordes of underlings to finally just say, "Oh, it's cool, man... take my portfolio, it was getting boring." I wonder if we'll ever be told if it was Jergal's choice or if it may be some directive of Ao.
C-Fb
We don't know that it was an active defense... Jergal could've placed those defenders around his palace seven millenia before Bane & friends ever walked the Realms, with standing orders to defend as long as they could.
Also, the defense could have been a test -- if they could get thru it, they were worthy. If not, they weren't worthy and it's a good thing they're gone now.
Good points, all. But then again, if he tested "The Three", I guess that would mean he didn't feel such apathy about the situation after all... |
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