| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Feanor |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 13:00:19
Two questions :
1. When a mortal ascends to godhood, he could create his own portofolio or he has to assume a portofolio which already exist ?
2. The clergy of Bhaal was only human or Bhaal or he could have had priests of other races (more precisely, elves) ? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Feanor |
Posted - 01 Sep 2005 : 15:53:53
quote:
Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
BTW, since someone mentioned wine, Bombadil is the god of wine.
What is Bombadil doing in the realms   ? Or were you just joking?
No, I was not. I stumbled upon a list of deities at www.toril.info which includes Bombadil as god of wine. |
| Misericordia |
Posted - 31 Aug 2005 : 17:53:48
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet
Bacchus was the God of Wine, but not of merrymaking. His "portfolio" was fertility, nature's vital force and so on.
What? Isn“t fertility and things revolving around it merrymaking  .
Gotcha! |
| Talanfir Swiftfeet |
Posted - 31 Aug 2005 : 17:43:45
quote:
Bacchus was the God of Wine, but not of merrymaking. His "portfolio" was fertility, nature's vital force and so on.
What? Isn“t fertility and things revolving around it merrymaking . |
| Misericordia |
Posted - 31 Aug 2005 : 17:38:45
quote:
Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet
Wasn“t there a god of wine and all kind of merrymaking in the greek pantheon (you know that guy in the Fantasia film who hanged around with the centaurs).
Bacchus was the God of Wine, but not of merrymaking. His "portfolio" was fertility, nature's vital force and so on. For his vitality he was consedered also god of wine, but first worshippers (mostly women) don't need wine to get ecstasy, their frenzy was spontaneous and irrepressible. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 31 Aug 2005 : 17:26:46
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
That'd be Dionysos (or Bacchus to the romans).
Who does exist as a deity in FR because of the Bloodstone modules. :) |
| Kajehase |
Posted - 31 Aug 2005 : 17:15:56
That'd be Dionysos (or Bacchus to the romans). |
| Talanfir Swiftfeet |
Posted - 31 Aug 2005 : 17:09:28
Wasn“t there a god of wine and all kind of merrymaking in the greek pantheon (you know that guy in the Fantasia film who hanged around with the centaurs). |
| Talanfir Swiftfeet |
Posted - 31 Aug 2005 : 17:05:25
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
BTW, since someone mentioned wine, Bombadil is the god of wine.
What is Bombadil doing in the realms? Or were you just joking? |
| Feanor |
Posted - 31 Aug 2005 : 13:26:20
BTW, since someone mentioned wine, Bombadil is the god of wine. |
| Talanfir Swiftfeet |
Posted - 31 Aug 2005 : 13:06:16
I may have a solution that may bring peace back to these hallowed halls of candlekeep. When a deity gains enough (divine?)levels, he/she can take a new portfolio. no deity will choose a portfolio of ham and cheese sandwitches because no mortal will worship a god of ham and cheese sandwitches (exept maybe bakers and poor hungry beggars). A deity would rather choose a more respected portfolio. The problem with that is that all the good stuff is allready taken, so a deity will have to steal someone elses portfolio. |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 31 Aug 2005 : 11:56:45
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
Sun restricted only to Dawn (Lathander) ? Personally, I can understand why Ao would erase the portofolio of Sun, since a god of Sun would be more powerful than the other greater powers. If something existed in the past, that does not imply that it cannot simply vanish.
Well met! Do not forget that Myrkul was also the God of Dusk, so apparently the portfolio of Sun was indeed divided between Myrkul and Lathander. It may be that it was Ao's wish, or perhaps no deity wished to become a sun god after the fall of Amaunator (who may now be stirring again, at least according to the Lost Empires of Faerun.) |
| Feanor |
Posted - 30 Aug 2005 : 17:23:24
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay...
I have presented facts, backed up by specific examples of canon lore.
Fact 1: It is possible for portfolios to exist without being held by any deities. Specific examples include the sun (Amaunator), reason and pragmatism (Murdane held both), and anarchy (formerly held by Valigan Thirdborn).
Fact 2: Portfolios are not all-encompassing. There are many examples of portfolios that could be facets of larger portfolios, yet remain separate. Specific examples include forests (Mielikki holds it, not the god of nature, Silvanus), skill-at-arms (held by Garagos, not the god of war, Tempus), and necromancy (held by Velsharoon, not the goddess of magic, Mystra, or the god of wizards, Azuth).
Now, until you can refute my arguments with specific, canon Realmslore examples, I am done with this discussion.
Ok. I still have some questions for you :
1. Fact 1 : If those portofolios existed and there were held by those deities, are you sure that they still exist ? Can you be so sure that those portofolios did not simply dissappear or were changed in another ? Anarchy into Chaos (Lloth), Sun restricted only to Dawn (Lathander) ? Personally, I can understand why Ao would erase the portofolio of Sun, since a god of Sun would be more powerful than the other greater powers. If something existed in the past, that does not imply that it cannot simply vanish.
So, to conclude, fact 1 does not stand because it's about portofolios who existed in the past.
If those 3 portofolios are still existant, I humbly confess I don't understad why Cyric or Talos don't take anarchy (since it is stated that both want more domains). Or Lathander Sun. Or Oghma reason and pragmatism. Until I get a explanation to this very strange behaviour of the gods, who scheme and battle each other to steal their portofolios but don't take some which are free, I can't be satisfied with those facts.
2. There is an explanation for every case :
-Mielikki serves Silvanus (in fact, one of her titles is Daughter of Silvanus, but I am not sure if she really is his daughter)
- Velsharoon serves Azuth ;
- Garagos was the former god of war, defeated by Tempus, but he was ressurected and he took back a part of his old domains.
They domains indeed encompass, but they could have been granted those aspects by their patrons or, in Garagos' case, he took something which belonged to him in the first instance.
I was refering to cases of mortal ascension with no such divine sponsorships.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Aug 2005 : 17:38:23
Okay...
I have presented facts, backed up by specific examples of canon lore.
Fact 1: It is possible for portfolios to exist without being held by any deities. Specific examples include the sun (Amaunator), reason and pragmatism (Murdane held both), and anarchy (formerly held by Valigan Thirdborn).
Fact 2: Portfolios are not all-encompassing. There are many examples of portfolios that could be facets of larger portfolios, yet remain separate. Specific examples include forests (Mielikki holds it, not the god of nature, Silvanus), skill-at-arms (held by Garagos, not the god of war, Tempus), and necromancy (held by Velsharoon, not the goddess of magic, Mystra, or the god of wizards, Azuth).
Now, until you can refute my arguments with specific, canon Realmslore examples, I am done with this discussion. |
| Feanor |
Posted - 29 Aug 2005 : 15:47:49
quote:
Why can't we create any portfolio we wish? We have deities of magic and wizards -- did we really need one for necromancers? Where's the abjurer deity, then, or the evoker deity?
Because Ao won't condone a situation of "huge number of portofolios free for all".
quote:
What's complicated about it? Page 41 of Lost Empires of Faerūn described Amaunator as "a Netherese deity of order and the sun." So he held the sun portfolio. No one currently holds the sun portfolio. So where does it get complicated?
Have you looked at the Netherese portofolio ? There were 10 deities. 5 of them have completely disappeared (Amaunator, Jennath, Kozah, Tyche and Targus). With 2 of them we know what happened (Mystryl and Jergal). Only 3 survived, Shar, Moander and Selune, but the last one has seriously diminished in power. A greater power during the Netherese era, now she is only an intermediate power. Also, the portofolios owned by these gods were much different. The changes are quite dramatical, I would say. And the dissapearance of those 5 gods cannot be blamed on the fall of Netheril, since at that time their power did not depend on their worshippers.
I think there can be strong suspicions about a reshaping of the pantheon by Ao (including gods and portofolios together). That's why I said it is more complicated.
And, btw, since you mentioned Amaunator, he was also the god of law. By your reasoning, this portofolio is now free, because there is no god of law today. But I disagree for the next reasons : it is true that no god has this portofolio, but law is covered by 2 greater powers : first, Tyr, as god of justice. But, since Tyr does not accept evil laws, these one fall into the care of Bane, as god of tyranny. Even if a magistrate ascended to godhood wants to assume the portofolio of law (which personally I don't think it would be possible, since law, the old portofolio of Amaunator, is now divided between Tyr and Bane), he would stir the wrath of those 2 gods, because they would lose a part of their worshippers in the favor of the new deity. (I refer to an ascension without their approval)
quote:
Again, why? If everyone is scrambling to grab the same portfolios, why give them away? It doesn't matter if you sponsor them or not -- why give something away instead of keeping it for yourself? After all, a lesser deity would have a harder time holding on to a portfolio than a greater deity would.
Because it's good to have some divine allies. And also there is one important thing : these were not already-existant portofolios. Practically, in those cases of ascension, the god has shared a part of his responsabilities with the ascended mortal. Something like "I'm the commander, I'll supervise the war altogether, but you are in charge with the cavalry". An ascended mortal has to convince another deity to give him a part of his own domains. That is the only option, I think.
quote:
Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul weren't gods -- they had to get that from Jergal.
Again, why ? They already killed a demi-power and taken his divine essence (else they could have not even dreamt of standing against Jergal). Why go against a greater power which could have destroyed them on the spot, if there are so many portofolios uncovered ?
quote:
Talos and Mask weren't powerful enough to steal portfolios back from Cyric, so of course they like the opportunity to get some for free. No effort on their part.
Again why ? If there are portofolios free for the taking, why scheming against Cyric and make such a powerful enemy ? Because, from the way you phrased your idea in the previous posts, I understand you think that the number of possible portofolios = 1 + x, where x is a variable depending on our imagination.
quote:
And you're right. A god can't simply take whatever portfolio he wants or create a new one. Because he has to be suited to it, and/or it's got to be open!
You reached the same conclusion as I.
quote:
So, just because something can fit into a portfolio, doesn't mean it does.
But again : if something can fit into a portofolio, but it still does not belong to that one, why the deity did not take it already ? If there is such a portofolio like "jokes and mirth", why Liira did not take this one instead of quarelling with Waukeen ?
quote:
Forests are part of nature. Growing plants are part of nature. Hunting is part of nature. You could even say that storms, cold, and the ocean are part of nature. And yet, all of these things are covered by other deities, not all of whom have anything to do with nature.
So this is another portfolio that does not emcompass all that it could. If it did, Mielikki, Chauntea, Malar, and possibly Talos, Auril, and Umberlee wouldn't be deities.
You could spin it further, too. Can you track without nature to track in? Bye Gwaeron Windstrom! Can poisons exist without natural materials to make them from? Bye Talona!
Yes, but that does not mean it must exist a portofolio for everything.
quote:
Now, can we end this debate? We're obviously not going to agree, and we're going astray from the original point.
No. I don't understand how can you suggest to end this debate, since you posted some questions addressed directly to me. Personally, I never let a question without an answer.
About the second part, since the original point belongs to me, I think I should know when we went astray from it. We did not.
I will summarize again. Situations : Iyachtu Xvim ascension and the Bhaalspawn saga. The original point : if the mortal spawn of those gods (Bane and Bhaal) is good-aligned and he does not want to assume their evil portofolios, what option of ascension do they have ? Normally, there are 2 possibilities : either take their fathers' domains and twist it to match their alignment, either submit to another god which would relinquish a part of his domains to them. Reason : because there are no free portofolios. But, if I accept your point of view, it means that both those situations can be avoided. The new god could simply take a new one.
A third possibility would be that Ao give them a new portofolio which could fit better their personality and biography. About this one, I am quite uncertain.
And, BTW, I think we cannot be 100% certain of any of theories, but I think the clues in favor of a limited number of portofolios which are all taken are stronger. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Aug 2005 : 17:13:33
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
Yes, but if I accept your point of view, it would mean we could create any portofolio we wish. Which means chaos.
And with the huge number of gods we already have, there is some element of chaos already.
Why can't we create any portfolio we wish? We have deities of magic and wizards -- did we really need one for necromancers? Where's the abjurer deity, then, or the evoker deity?
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Lliira covers celebrations and such. I don't see telling a joke as being a celebration of anything.
You are ignoring something which I said : Liira is the goddess of joy. Jokes are not something which can be included in this portofolio ? If we divide portofolios this way, then we reach some very ridiculous situations. For instance, even though Mielikki is the god of forests, there could be other 100,000 portofolios for every plant in those forests.
Jokes can be joyful... Jokes can also be mailicious. Just because it can fit into one portfolio, doesn't mean it does. After all, you're giving marriage to Sune because she covers love. But isn't marriage a celebration of love? What about Sharess with her sensual fulfillment? That's a celebration of lust, and most people who get to partake of that portfolio are pretty joyful. And yet, those are separate and distinct portfolios.
So, just because something can fit into a portfolio, doesn't mean it does.
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You are also ignoring the fact that the sun is an uncovered portfolio. There was a deity of the sun in the past, but now there is not. Hence, it is uncovered.
Well, the matter of Sun is more complicated than it seems at first sight, since Lathander is a new aspect of Amaunator, practically a kind of Amaunator reborn (maybe that's why he has Renewal). And are you sure that Amaunator had indeed the Sun itself and not an aspect of it ?
What's complicated about it? Page 41 of Lost Empires of Faerūn described Amaunator as "a Netherese deity of order and the sun." So he held the sun portfolio. No one currently holds the sun portfolio. So where does it get complicated?
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Sune covers stuff related to marriage, but nowhere is she specifically assigned marriage. Sure, it makes sense to give it to her, but it's not in her listed portfolios.
Marriage is an aspect of love. See what I said about Mielikki. For instance, there is no god of trees. That does not mean there is a portofolio of trees. If we take on this path, the number of possible portofolio goes somewhere to hundreds of thousands.
And skill-at-arms, destruction, and plunder are all aspects of war. But are they held by the god of war? Nope, Garagos the Reaver has them -- not Tempus.
So, once more, we see that just because something can fall into a particular portfolio, it doesn't mean it's a part of it.
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Silvanus covering wine? Why would someone who watches wild nature and druids give a rat's behind about wine?
Because Silvanus is the god of nature.
Since when is wine part of nature?
Forests are part of nature. Growing plants are part of nature. Hunting is part of nature. You could even say that storms, cold, and the ocean are part of nature. And yet, all of these things are covered by other deities, not all of whom have anything to do with nature.
So this is another portfolio that does not emcompass all that it could. If it did, Mielikki, Chauntea, Malar, and possibly Talos, Auril, and Umberlee wouldn't be deities.
You could spin it further, too. Can you track without nature to track in? Bye Gwaeron Windstrom! Can poisons exist without natural materials to make them from? Bye Talona!
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And here's a question back at you: you say gods are so busy trying to snag each other's portfolios... Then why would other deities casually give them away? Strategic planning is certainly related to war, but there's no evidence that Tempus actually did anything with it. If gods are so busy trying to steal portfolios from each other, he should have kept it for himself, not given it away.
You ignore the fact that they gave those aspects of their portofolio to mortals whose ascension to godhood they sponsored. They relinquished their power to mortals which served them in life and who they became their assistants in the pantheon. Examples :
- Azuth sponsored by Mystra ;
- Red Knight by Tempus ;
- Torm by Tyr.
And I don't know exactly the details of Velsharoon's ascension, but now, as god of necromancers, he serves Azuth, although they don't have nothing in common.
Again, why? If everyone is scrambling to grab the same portfolios, why give them away? It doesn't matter if you sponsor them or not -- why give something away instead of keeping it for yourself? After all, a lesser deity would have a harder time holding on to a portfolio than a greater deity would.
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
And a question back at you : A god cannot simply take what portofolio wishes or create a new one. If it had been possible, then why Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul took the great risk of going against Jergal, who was a greater power at the time and he could have obliterated them in a blink ? Also, Xvim, when he ascended, took a part of Cyric's portofolios. Cyric himself had to kill Leira to take her portofolio : if he could have taken a new one, why he would have risked so much by attacking another deity ? Or why Mask wastes his time scheming to take "intrigue" from Cyric instead of taking a new one ? Why Mask did not proclaim himself the god of smugglers ? Why Liira did not want to give Waukeen her portofolio back and she was so pissed off when she was forced to submit ?
When the Circle of Greater Powers took into consideration the posibility of destroying Cyric and dividing his portofolios among themselves, Talos and Mask started salivating.
Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul weren't gods -- they had to get that from Jergal. Cyric styles himself as the Prince of Lies -- of course he had to take deception! He couldn't make a new portfolio identical to an existing one...
And Lliira held Waukeen's portfolios in trust, and did not try to hold them -- she barely did anything with them. The only problem was that Waukeen was irked that some of her clerics had converted.
Talos and Mask weren't powerful enough to steal portfolios back from Cyric, so of course they like the opportunity to get some for free. No effort on their part.
And you're right. A god can't simply take whatever portfolio he wants or create a new one. Because he has to be suited to it, and/or it's got to be open!
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
[quote]Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Also, there is another problem. Many possible portofolio are related to other gods portofolios. Or there are covered by more than one god. There is no god of conquest, for instance, but this belongs to Tempus, because war can mean also conquest. Sure, you can say "they are not the same", but this way we'll have a never-ending river of possible portofolios. Which is VERY unlikely.
But we already have that -- look at the number of nature deities. Look at the number of deities that cover some aspect of war. Like it or not, portfolios are not all-encompassing, as I have shown with specific examples.
Now, can we end this debate? We're obviously not going to agree, and we're going astray from the original point. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Aug 2005 : 15:24:44
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Didn't Myrkul have "Dusk" in his portfolio (at least in 2e lore)?
Indeed he did.
|
| Feanor |
Posted - 28 Aug 2005 : 15:12:42
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You're ignoring part of my earlier statement. Gods either don't grab these uncovered portfolios because it's not worth it, or because they're not suited to them.
Yes, but if I accept your point of view, it would mean we could create any portofolio we wish. Which means chaos.
quote:
Lliira covers celebrations and such. I don't see telling a joke as being a celebration of anything.
You are ignoring something which I said : Liira is the goddess of joy. Jokes are not something which can be included in this portofolio ? If we divide portofolios this way, then we reach some very ridiculous situations. For instance, even though Mielikki is the god of forests, there could be other 100,000 portofolios for every plant in those forests.
quote:
You are also ignoring the fact that the sun is an uncovered portfolio. There was a deity of the sun in the past, but now there is not. Hence, it is uncovered.
Well, the matter of Sun is more complicated than it seems at first sight, since Lathander is a new aspect of Amaunator, practically a kind of Amaunator reborn (maybe that's why he has Renewal). And are you sure that Amaunator had indeed the Sun itself and not an aspect of it ?
quote:
Sune covers stuff related to marriage, but nowhere is she specifically assigned marriage. Sure, it makes sense to give it to her, but it's not in her listed portfolios.
Marriage is an aspect of love. See what I said about Mielikki. For instance, there is no god of trees. That does not mean there is a portofolio of trees. If we take on this path, the number of possible portofolio goes somewhere to hundreds of thousands.
quote:
Silvanus covering wine? Why would someone who watches wild nature and druids give a rat's behind about wine?
Because Silvanus is the god of nature.
quote:
And here's a question back at you: you say gods are so busy trying to snag each other's portfolios... Then why would other deities casually give them away? Strategic planning is certainly related to war, but there's no evidence that Tempus actually did anything with it. If gods are so busy trying to steal portfolios from each other, he should have kept it for himself, not given it away.
You ignore the fact that they gave those aspects of their portofolio to mortals whose ascension to godhood they sponsored. They relinquished their power to mortals which served them in life and who they became their assistants in the pantheon. Examples :
- Azuth sponsored by Mystra ;
- Red Knight by Tempus ;
- Torm by Tyr.
And I don't know exactly the details of Velsharoon's ascension, but now, as god of necromancers, he serves Azuth, although they don't have nothing in common.
And a question back at you : A god cannot simply take what portofolio wishes or create a new one. If it had been possible, then why Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul took the great risk of going against Jergal, who was a greater power at the time and he could have obliterated them in a blink ? Also, Xvim, when he ascended, took a part of Cyric's portofolios. Cyric himself had to kill Leira to take her portofolio : if he could have taken a new one, why he would have risked so much by attacking another deity ? Or why Mask wastes his time scheming to take "intrigue" from Cyric instead of taking a new one ? Why Mask did not proclaim himself the god of smugglers ? Why Liira did not want to give Waukeen her portofolio back and she was so pissed off when she was forced to submit ?
When the Circle of Greater Powers took into consideration the posibility of destroying Cyric and dividing his portofolios among themselves, Talos and Mask started salivating.
Also, there is another problem. Many possible portofolio are related to other gods portofolios. Or there are covered by more than one god. There is no god of conquest, for instance, but this belongs to Tempus, because war can mean also conquest. Sure, you can say "they are not the same", but this way we'll have a never-ending river of possible portofolios. Which is VERY unlikely. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Aug 2005 : 14:40:28
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are portfolios out there that are uncovered... Many of the minor deities have, upon their ascension, picked up these uncovered portfolios -- like the Red Knight, or Velsharoon.
Not quite. Both were granted an aspect of another god's portofolio. Red Knight from Tempus, Velsharoon from Azuth. They had a divine sponsor, they did not take a completely new one. If there are portofolio for every aspect of life, then it means that thousands of portofolios could exist. Which is quite unlikely.
"Further, who holds jokes and mirth? Who holds marriage? Who holds construction and engineering? Who holds ham and cheese sandwiches? Who is the god of wine?"
To reply to this questions :
jokes and mirth - Liira, as the goddess of joy
marriage - Sune, as the goddess of love
construction and engineering - Gond
wine - Silvanus, god of nature
ham and cheese sandwitches - this one is simply ridiculous ; if we take it this way, then I can easily list 10,000 possible portofolios.
Also, keep in mind that many possible portofolios are included in other gods' portofolios. For instance, if someone wants to become the god of laws, it would tread on Tyr's turf.
If an ascended mortal has a divine sponsorship, then he could take an aspect of his patron's portofolio. For instance, a follower of Sune becoming god of marriage. But, if he does not have such sponsorship, can he simply take a portofolio from nowhere ?
After all, if it would be so simple to acquire new portofolios, why gods try to snatch each other's portofolio ? Why Mask, for instance, wants intrigue back from Cyric instead of proclaiming himself the god of smugglers ?
You're ignoring part of my earlier statement. Gods either don't grab these uncovered portfolios because it's not worth it, or because they're not suited to them.
You are also ignoring the fact that the sun is an uncovered portfolio. There was a deity of the sun in the past, but now there is not. Hence, it is uncovered.
As for some of your portfolio assignments...
Lliira covers celebrations and such. I don't see telling a joke as being a celebration of anything.
Sune covers stuff related to marriage, but nowhere is she specifically assigned marriage. Sure, it makes sense to give it to her, but it's not in her listed portfolios.
Gond -- okay, that one I will grant
Silvanus covering wine? Why would someone who watches wild nature and druids give a rat's behind about wine?
Ham and cheese sandwiches -- yup, it's ridiculous. But... if you look, no one covers food. And few is insanely important. Sure, we have Chauntea who essentially provides the food, but food itself (at least, other than plants cultivated by humans) is uncovered.
And here's a question back at you: you say gods are so busy trying to snag each other's portfolios... Then why would other deities casually give them away? Strategic planning is certainly related to war, but there's no evidence that Tempus actually did anything with it. If gods are so busy trying to steal portfolios from each other, he should have kept it for himself, not given it away. |
| Feanor |
Posted - 28 Aug 2005 : 13:44:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are portfolios out there that are uncovered... Many of the minor deities have, upon their ascension, picked up these uncovered portfolios -- like the Red Knight, or Velsharoon.
Not quite. Both were granted an aspect of another god's portofolio. Red Knight from Tempus, Velsharoon from Azuth. They had a divine sponsor, they did not take a completely new one. If there are portofolio for every aspect of life, then it means that thousands of portofolios could exist. Which is quite unlikely.
"Further, who holds jokes and mirth? Who holds marriage? Who holds construction and engineering? Who holds ham and cheese sandwiches? Who is the god of wine?"
To reply to this questions :
jokes and mirth - Liira, as the goddess of joy
marriage - Sune, as the goddess of love
construction and engineering - Gond
wine - Silvanus, god of nature
ham and cheese sandwitches - this one is simply ridiculous ; if we take it this way, then I can easily list 10,000 possible portofolios.
Also, keep in mind that many possible portofolios are included in other gods' portofolios. For instance, if someone wants to become the god of laws, it would tread on Tyr's turf.
If an ascended mortal has a divine sponsorship, then he could take an aspect of his patron's portofolio. For instance, a follower of Sune becoming god of marriage. But, if he does not have such sponsorship, can he simply take a portofolio from nowhere ?
After all, if it would be so simple to acquire new portofolios, why gods try to snatch each other's portofolio ? Why Mask, for instance, wants intrigue back from Cyric instead of proclaiming himself the god of smugglers ? |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 28 Aug 2005 : 11:46:07
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Hells,
The sun is still a uncovered one since none of the current deities have it and Amaunator is dead. Lathander is NOT the sun, he's the dawn which is different.
And that's actually a bit odd, if you think about it. Just why has that portfolio not been grabbed?
I agree since the moon and sun are so important in pagan cultures that Faerun is based on.
Both good points.
It's especially curious given Ao's stance on keeping the pantheon balanced. You'd think that because the Moon is so well represented in the faith of Selune that the Sun itself would also warrant some representation.
Didn't Myrkul have "Dusk" in his portfolio (at least in 2e lore)? Since Lathander is the God of Dawn, there seems to be a balance, and perhaps no god has dared to try to become the God of Sun (since Amaunator), because two aspects of the Sun have belonged to two Greater Powers for so long? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Aug 2005 : 04:26:00
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Hells,
The sun is still a uncovered one since none of the current deities have it and Amaunator is dead. Lathander is NOT the sun, he's the dawn which is different.
And that's actually a bit odd, if you think about it. Just why has that portfolio not been grabbed?
I agree since the moon and sun are so important in pagan cultures that Faerun is based on.
Both good points.
It's especially curious given Ao's stance on keeping the pantheon balanced. You'd think that because the Moon is so well represented in the faith of Selune that the Sun itself would also warrant some representation.
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 23:40:08
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Hells,
The sun is still a uncovered one since none of the current deities have it and Amaunator is dead. Lathander is NOT the sun, he's the dawn which is different.
And that's actually a bit odd, if you think about it. Just why has that portfolio not been grabbed?
I agree since the moon and sun are so important in pagan cultures that Faerun is based on. |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 22:47:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
Personally, I don't think there can be uncovered portofolio, because any portofolio who becomes free will have immediately a lot of claimers.
But there are uncovered portfolios... To paraphrase a joke another deity made, there is no deity of cups and saucers in the Realms. Further, who holds jokes and mirth? Who holds marriage? Who holds construction and engineering? Who holds ham and cheese sandwiches? Who is the god of wine?
No, there are uncovered portfolios. Why are they uncovered? Because existing deities are either incompatible with these free-floating portfolios (Cyricists telling jokes? Helmites drinking wine?), or because there's simply not enough potential return on their investment (the god of cups and saucers, for example, wouldn't receive much worship from that portfolio).
But being the god/goddess of households (deity of home and hearth, which would include those cups and saucers ;) might be worthwhile... perhaps Ed tried to create a pantheon consisting of "exciting" deities (at least from the characters' point of view) with a bit more broader aspects and portfolios instead of all those God of Roads, God of Caravans, God of Flatulence, God of Meat and Sausages etc.
Maybe that is why there are so many "free-floating" portfolios... either they were "too specific/unimportant" or "not-so-exciting" 
Anauroch describes some minor and unique deities, sort of semi-divine ancestral spirits which are tied to a certain place (their power center). So there might be other "small gods" around, who actually may hold power over those cups and saucers and such (Terry Pratchett's "Small gods" is a good refence, if you use such beings in your campaigns)
I assume that Ed, who originally tried to avoid any direct cultural references in the Realms, may have thought that there have been so many sun deities in the RW pantheons, so he intentionally decided that the Realms shouldn't have one. But I am only guessing here |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 22:33:32
quote:
Originally posted by Misericordia
quote:
Who is the god of wine?
The Master is always the god of wine in our campaigns!
Give him some good Chianti and certainly will be more comprehensive!
Perhaps Lliira, in the sense that she is the goddess of joy and festivals? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 22:14:17
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Hells,
The sun is still a uncovered one since none of the current deities have it and Amaunator is dead. Lathander is NOT the sun, he's the dawn which is different.
And that's actually a bit odd, if you think about it. Just why has that portfolio not been grabbed? |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 21:25:54
Psionics is another unclaimed portfolio. Still nominally held by the dormant god Auppenser. Although I hear he may yet soon stir...  |
| Kuje |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 18:33:45
Hells,
The sun is still a uncovered one since none of the current deities have it and Amaunator is dead. Lathander is NOT the sun, he's the dawn which is different. |
| Misericordia |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 18:29:26
quote:
Who is the god of wine?
The Master is always the god of wine in our campaigns!
Give him some good Chianti and certainly will be more comprehensive! |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 18:27:30
Another factor in this is a god would have to prove themselves capable of holding the portfolio, wiether from capturing it or making it up. Bane took fear after demonstrating that he could cause a powerful, godly image of fear. Making his seem worthy of holding that title in the eyes of most of the gods and even Ao.
You can make a god of anything, but they must proved a strong image of the portfolio. Like Finder his change from fool to god produced an image of the cyclical nature of life, a transformation of his life through art and his patronage of the Saurial.
Just some of my thoughts. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 18:10:25
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
Personally, I don't think there can be uncovered portofolio, because any portofolio who becomes free will have immediately a lot of claimers.
But there are uncovered portfolios... To paraphrase a joke another deity made, there is no deity of cups and saucers in the Realms. Further, who holds jokes and mirth? Who holds marriage? Who holds construction and engineering? Who holds ham and cheese sandwiches? Who is the god of wine?
No, there are uncovered portfolios. Why are they uncovered? Because existing deities are either incompatible with these free-floating portfolios (Cyricists telling jokes? Helmites drinking wine?), or because there's simply not enough potential return on their investment (the god of cups and saucers, for example, wouldn't receive much worship from that portfolio). |
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