| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Sir Luther Cromwell |
Posted - 11 Jul 2005 : 16:18:49
First, I would like everyone to consider one quote from the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting.
"after this creation came a period of timeless nothingness, a misty realms of shadows that existed before light and darkness were separate things."
I, Sir Luther Cromwell, have also some experience is the nightmare realm "Ravenloft", or the land of the mists. One might say that that the land of the mists shows many similarities to europe (sort of like faerun). Raveloft was a world of great mists that worked independly of time, of eternal shadows that never ended, and where even the most noble and wiset paladins and good aligned clerics could never tell fully what was good or evil.
My hypothesis to you, fellow sages, is that Ravenloft may have some ancestoral relationship with the realms. Already in the realms are there many a character take from our beloved toril into that horrible land. Of the ones I know:
Jander Sunstar-Waterdeep
Harkan Lucas-Cormyr
Hasslik-Thay
And many others. Is there a possibilty that Ravenloft may have been our world before Selune and Shar were created? Or maybe an alternate universe where shar over powered selune, distorting the world to her whims?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 01:49:55
quote:
Originally posted by Arilou
quote:
(right-place/right-time).
Sure (as this is Ravenloft we are talking about) it must be the WRONG place/time :p
No mortal can ever truly understand the desires of the Mists! 
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| Arilou |
Posted - 21 Sep 2005 : 19:14:08
quote:
(right-place/right-time).
Sure (as this is Ravenloft we are talking about) it must be the WRONG place/time :p |
| Sir Luther Cromwell |
Posted - 16 Sep 2005 : 03:29:41
quote:
Being new to these forums (but a longtime lurker and poster in the Ravenloft message boards at www.kargatane.com and www.fraternityofshadows.com), I'd like to take a moment to throw some support behind the idea that the Dark Powers are attempting to "build a better yugoloth". I'm not sure I totally agree with the concept as it stands, but something similar might make sense
If you get a chance, be sure to say hi to the Stygiant Inquirer (guy who wrote the Masque of the Red death character sheet) for me.
And wow, I honestly thought that this (my first scroll on candlekeep) had long seen its wax seel.
Ya Ravenloft definatetly left A LOT open for interpretation. For all we know, the dark powers could just be an endless room of monkies with type writers, tryinig to produce the ultimate evil. It could even be a group of dogs playing poker at a table.
In relavence back to the topic. Having studied the realms more, and having done some reading on the core fundamentals of RL (when I made this thread, my DM kept enough info from me to not let me know exactly WHAT the dark powers were), I see how out stretched the original theory of Ravenloft and FR being so closely tied was. This simply shows that it pays to do your research.
Ravenloft's interest in FR people very much sparks from the fact that RL inhabitants would probably find Faerun to be a...well...'wuss realm'. It's one thing to take your average man and turn him evil, its another to corrupt something incredibly that was once good. Hence why Black Guards are more powerful when they used to be paladins.
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| Adam_Garou |
Posted - 15 Sep 2005 : 17:22:50
Well met, indeed, Master Moderator.
*bows and notes the +5 staff of the irritated moderator Alaundo is beginning to tap menacingly against his palm*
Being new to these forums (but a longtime lurker and poster in the Ravenloft message boards at www.kargatane.com and www.fraternityofshadows.com), I'd like to take a moment to throw some support behind the idea that the Dark Powers are attempting to "build a better yugoloth". I'm not sure I totally agree with the concept as it stands, but something similar might make sense.
The Dark Powers seem primarily interested in the corruption of individuals--in getting them to choose their own doom and forge the chains of their own damnation. Many of the folk of the Realms have been brought into the Lands of Mists seemingly for that purpose alone. Others have been brought in because they will assist in the downfall/torment of another (torment is generally focused on the Darklords themselves), and still others are brought in for no apparent reason at all (right-place/right-time).
This could mean that the progenitors of the tanar'ri or the baatezu could also be in charge of the Dark Powers, attempting to build a better demon or devil. That is, maybe pulling individuals into the Demiplane of Dread is mainly a chaotic and impulsive process, or maybe it's subject to particular laws and orders so vast that we mere mortals simply have trouble distinguishing them.
Does it make for a "higher quality" demon/devil/yugoloth if the individual freely chose damnation of his own will? I think it's a possibility, but keep in mind that we'll never really know. The Dark Powers will never be formally defined (especially now that the rights to the Ravenloft setting have reverted back from ArtHaus to WotC and the setting has once again gone out of print), because they're supposed to be whatever the DM needs them to be.
That means it's all theory. Fun-to-discuss theory, but theory nonetheless. |
| Alaundo |
Posted - 15 Sep 2005 : 07:22:52
Well met
 Dragonlance? Greyhawk?! My word, I believe not what I am seeing 
Aye, let us continue with the Forgotten Realms.... oh ok, i'll allow a little Ravenloft, being as 'tis meantioned in the title  |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 15 Sep 2005 : 03:04:49
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Is this canon? I've never heard it before. In fact, I just this day saw the term "baernaloth" for the first time.
*invokes a great spell of off-topic thread'omancy*
I'm reminded of a little something involving the Baern and Ravenloft I read recently http://greyhawkonline.com/pitsofevil/viewtopic.php?t=5786
Personally I wouldn't have them (directly) involved with the Demiplane of Dread, but I've used something akin to that idea with them creating a demiplane to stock with trapped petitioners whose memory they created from whole cloth and varied at whim in order to create entire worlds and cultures and see what happened to the antfarm, so to speak, when they shook it. A nice little couple thousand mile wide sphere of black glass nestled in the negative energy plane called 'Eternity's Doorstep'.
I've written a number of short stories involving the Baernaloths http://greyhawkonline.com/pitsofevil/viewtopic.php?t=3160, http://greyhawkonline.com/pitsofevil/viewtopic.php?t=4913, http://greyhawkonline.com/pitsofevil/viewtopic.php?t=5790, and about five or so others in a series I've been working on in my spare time. A cabal of them, including all of those in the stories, have been antagonists in the background of my campaigns/storyhour at various points. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 16 Jul 2005 : 02:44:17
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arlenion
It's not cannon, but Fizban( Zifnab) has influenced Earth in The Death Gate Cycle. The only reason I brought this up was because the series was written by the authors of Dragonlance Chronicle.
I wouldn't say he influenced it as much as he was present on Earth. And in the Death's Gate Cycle, he was a Sartan -- not a deity.
And to add to the apparent confusion between Tracy's alter egos, Fizban even once alluded to the possibility that he, as Paladine, came from another realm where he was nothing more than an extremely divine mortal -- perhaps a connection between Zifnab and Fizban is more a reality than we actually realise.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Jul 2005 : 22:35:24
quote:
Originally posted by Arlenion
It's not cannon, but Fizban( Zifnab) has influenced Earth in The Death Gate Cycle. The only reason I brought this up was because the series was written by the authors of Dragonlance Chronicle.
I wouldn't say he influenced it as much as he was present on Earth. And in the Death's Gate Cycle, he was a Sartan -- not a deity. |
| Arlenion |
Posted - 15 Jul 2005 : 22:16:25
It's not cannon, but Fizban( Zifnab) has influenced Earth in The Death Gate Cycle. The only reason I brought this up was because the series was written by the authors of Dragonlance Chronicle. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Jul 2005 : 17:22:45
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
Maybe Shar liked Vecna, and made her own little god of secrets in Vecna.
I don't see Shar doing this, though. She's not the kind who would willingly share any power; if it was possible for her to be present in Greyspace, she'd be trying to take that portfolio for herself.
I don't see her wanting anything to do with Ravenloft, either. Shar desires oblivion, so messing around with Ravenloft would be kinda pointless. With as difficult as it is to get out of that demiplane, she doesn't have a lot to gain by doing anything there.
Oh, and I believe that deities from different spheres are not allowed to manipulate or work against each other. |
| Sir Luther Cromwell |
Posted - 14 Jul 2005 : 14:17:01
quote:
Imagine a god of secrets manipulating the secrets of another god of secrets??? This is devious!
twidles his fingers
That idea is so oozingly good, its giving me cholesterol!
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| Sir Luther Cromwell |
Posted - 14 Jul 2005 : 14:04:28
I asked a friend of mine who is an RL Gm, and he says that apparently Vecna wasn't a full blown god when he was thrown into Ravenloft.
I think the way it worked was:
Vecna and Kas piss each other off. Vecna and Kas were powerful demi-gods, but not the full blow stuff
Kas de-eyes and de-hands Vecna
Vecna goes all Keanu on Kas and is about to kill him
They get taken in my mists (oowww, Muffin )
Vecna and Kas each get their own domain with neutral mountains in between both. (the dark powers gave them a 'Time out'
Vecna finds a way back, but just because he's been a bad boy, the dark powers make him bring Kas along with him.
When Vecna comes back, he has become the god of secrets (and not before)
How true is this? If it is true, maybe it does work that Shar was manipulating Vecna. Maybe Shar liked Vecna, and made her own little god of secrets in Vecna. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Jul 2005 : 02:47:22
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Hehehe. Iīm echoing this.
But, going back to the topic, Sir Luther, how is the better way you think to work that Ravenloft/FR interaction? I think that the idea about Shar is the better one. Even considering Vecna, IIRC, he is, yes, the god of secrets. But he is a minor god, Iīm right? I think that, if we go to use the Ravenloft/FR theorie, I think that Shar have the power to mantain Vecna locked in the Realms of Dread (until the moment that he discovers whatīs happening, and go back to Greyhawk, and start to made Sharīs live a real hell!!! 
Imagine a god of secrets manipulating the secrets of another god of secrets???  This is devious!
You also have to remember the Dark Powers element.
When Vecna was brought into RL, (in his domain of Cavitius which was part of the Burning Peaks cluster along with Kas's domain Tovag) he was severly 'de-powered'. The Dark Powers sought to constrain much of his great power, trapping him in only one physical form. They also prevented him from becoming incorporeal and completely severed his ties to his collected avatar forms...
I imagine much the same would happen with Shar also.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 14 Jul 2005 : 02:40:15
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
Imagine if the Underdark were consumed by the evil in ravenloft .
Would anyone notice?
There's already an Underdark-styled region in Ravenloft. It just does not grant access to most other domains.
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| Chosen of Moradin |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 23:52:26
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
Oh common, you can't tell me Evil svirfneblin doesn't sound so awesome. MALICIOUS GNOMES WITH PERNEMENT NON-DETECTION!
I somehow picture a short, asian Gnome on a throne singing 'I'm so ronery"
Nice way to sneak in a non-Realms reference! 
Hehehe. Iīm echoing this.
But, going back to the topic, Sir Luther, how is the better way you think to work that Ravenloft/FR interaction? I think that the idea about Shar is the better one. Even considering Vecna, IIRC, he is, yes, the god of secrets. But he is a minor god, Iīm right? I think that, if we go to use the Ravenloft/FR theorie, I think that Shar have the power to mantain Vecna locked in the Realms of Dread (until the moment that he discovers whatīs happening, and go back to Greyhawk, and start to made Sharīs live a real hell!!!
Imagine a god of secrets manipulating the secrets of another god of secrets??? This is devious! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 22:40:09
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
Oh common, you can't tell me Evil svirfneblin doesn't sound so awesome. MALICIOUS GNOMES WITH PERNEMENT NON-DETECTION!
I somehow picture a short, asian Gnome on a throne singing 'I'm so ronery"
Nice way to sneak in a non-Realms reference! |
| Chosen of Moradin |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 21:46:14
quote:
Oh common, you can't tell me Evil svirfneblin doesn't sound so awesome. MALICIOUS GNOMES WITH PERNEMENT NON-DETECTION!
Hehehe. That malicious little ones will give too much trouble to everyone, really...
And I donīt have stoped to visualize Halaster, the conoisseur of exotic monsters, running in the halls of Undermountain, throwing crops/meat/whatever and saying: " Heeeeeeeeeere, kitty, kitty kitty..."  |
| Sir Luther Cromwell |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 19:16:15
Oh common, you can't tell me Evil svirfneblin doesn't sound so awesome. MALICIOUS GNOMES WITH PERNEMENT NON-DETECTION!
I somehow picture a short, asian Gnome on a throne singing 'I'm so ronery" |
| Chosen of Moradin |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 18:29:20
The svirfneblin!!! 
And Halaster will have a cronical burst of laugh that will last one entire day! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 17:09:12
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
Imagine if the Underdark were consumed by the evil in ravenloft .
Would anyone notice? |
| Sir Luther Cromwell |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 14:42:33
quote:
Ok, what I (and the other scribes here) are doing, is to show all the gaps that will need to be reshaped/filled/relocated by you, to put the idea in a good pace.
And let me just say, I appreciate this, thoroughly, from everyone.
One other thing that may be cool is if Ravenloft itself somehow came into contact with FR. I don't see how, other than if the dark powers all of a suddenly decided that invading FR might be fun. But there could be some interesting possibilities, if sick and twisted. Imagine if the Underdark were consumed by the evil in ravenloft . |
| Chosen of Moradin |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 12:42:51
quote:
Not an assumption, a theory. In the end I guess it's the interpretation of the GM. And it is true, mist doesn't always mean Strahd. There's Asselin, and Gwydian (sp), and Dominique, and Adam, and Hasslik, and Harkan Lucas, and 'Death'.
If you ask me, applying this theory to a game in FR, should the GM wish to do so, wouldn't seem that much of a stretch. It's not necessarily absolutely true, but if you ask me possible.
Hey, Sir Luther!
I want to say that I, too, find dificult to believe that the mists of the creation of Toril are the same Mists of Ravenloft. In the sequence of that same text of the FRCS that you have quoted, is said that
"this shadowy essence coalesced to form beautifull twin goddesses..."
and, with this, became Shar and Selune. So, the only way to believe that those mists are The Mists, is to believe that it was formed by the mist part that became Shar, and she (as the goddes of secrets), well, mantain it in secret
This really can work, but we have more hard work to do. If the Mists of Ravenloft are part of the Shar essence (the Faerunian goddess of secrets), itīs very hard to believe that Vecna (the god of secrets of Greyhawk) stay locked in Ravenloft all that time.
All of this, Iīm suposing, thinking that you are desiring to DM one campaign in Ravenloft/Forgotten Realms. And I think that is a good idea.
Ok, what I (and the other scribes here) are doing, is to show all the gaps that will need to be reshaped/filled/relocated by you, to put the idea in a good pace. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 06:06:33
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
I believe that Sage was refering to a type of demon found in the 2e Monster Manual.
The baern were also given further treatment in the 2e PS tome... Faces of Evil: The Fiends.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 06:03:44
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Who create it, and who control the mists? I donīt know. Maybe the overgods (Ao, Chaos, and some others that I really donīt know); maybe the Lady of Pain... Maybe no one?!?
The baernaloths.
In their ultimate pursuit to find the truth of real "evil", they constructed a demiplane where they could push mortals to the depths of depravity -- all in the hope of fashioning a new and better type of yugoloth.
Is this canon? I've never heard it before. In fact, I just this day saw the term "baernaloth" for the first time.
No, just a theory.
The baernaloths are the supposed "creators" of the yugoloth race. I say supposed because it is usually said that after they created the 'loths... the baern disappeared making it a diffcult task for sages and scholars to accurately confirm these rumors. The few times travellers have encountered what they believe to be a baernaloth... the baernaloths themselves deny that they are responsible for such an act.
However, there's an alternate belief that the "nature" of the baernaloths is really something the ultraloths cooked up in order to justify their overall rulership of the yugoloths -- they claim that the baern left them "in charge" before they disappeared.
It's my theory that the missing baernaloths may in fact be tied to the Dark Powers of Ravenloft. They are using the demiplane in order to fashion the greatest of all evils. This great evil, when it is found, will be used to breed an entirely new type of yugoloth -- a fiendish form whose penchant for malicious and hatred know no bounds anywhere in the multiverse.
Of course, that's just ONE theory. I have others... but this is hardly the place for them  .
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| Sir Luther Cromwell |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 04:59:36
quote:
I've never heard it before. In fact, I just this day saw the term "baernaloth" for the first time.
I believe that Sage was refering to a type of demon found in the 2e Monster Manual. Definately, the very nature of RL doesn't seem to have remained constant between 3rd and 2nd edition. Personally, I perfer the 3rd edition setting. Ravenloft is better off much more complicated and introcate than a bunch of demons trying to create bigger demons through torture of mortal lives.
quote:
I don't know... I don't see why we can assume that mists and the Mists are one in the same.
Not an assumption, a theory. In the end I guess it's the interpretation of the GM. And it is true, mist doesn't always mean Strahd. There's Asselin, and Gwydian (sp), and Dominique, and Adam, and Hasslik, and Harkan Lucas, and 'Death'.
If you ask me, applying this theory to a game in FR, should the GM wish to do so, wouldn't seem that much of a stretch. It's not necessarily absolutely true, but if you ask me possible. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 04:01:41
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Who create it, and who control the mists? I donīt know. Maybe the overgods (Ao, Chaos, and some others that I really donīt know); maybe the Lady of Pain... Maybe no one?!?
The baernaloths.
In their ultimate pursuit to find the truth of real "evil", they constructed a demiplane where they could push mortals to the depths of depravity -- all in the hope of fashioning a new and better type of yugoloth.
Is this canon? I've never heard it before. In fact, I just this day saw the term "baernaloth" for the first time. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 03:57:24
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
::waiting on Wooly to make an Occam's Razor comment::
::Checks his fine Lantanese wristwatch::
Well, it does apply here.
Just because I see fog doesn't mean I need to start looking out for Strahd. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 03:23:54
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Who create it, and who control the mists? I donīt know. Maybe the overgods (Ao, Chaos, and some others that I really donīt know); maybe the Lady of Pain... Maybe no one?!?
The baernaloths.
In their ultimate pursuit to find the truth of real "evil", they constructed a demiplane where they could push mortals to the depths of depravity -- all in the hope of fashioning a new and better type of yugoloth.
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| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 02:15:32
::waiting on Wooly to make an Occam's Razor comment::
::Checks his fine Lantanese wristwatch:: |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 02:12:50
I don't know... I don't see why we can assume that mists and the Mists are one in the same. |
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