| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 06:42:58
Time for a Rant
Remember this little gem
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/news/20050126news
Well thanks to Roberts article and WOTC one of my Players went out and bought LEOF
Needless to say I could just about strangle Robert Wiese
What on Earth made WOTC think that LEOF was for the eyes of Players? Its is quite clearly a Dms source book like the FRC
Well I can tell you next gaming session Im going to prempt Robert before he can write a "10 Reasons for Players to buy Champions of Ruin" article and Ill tell my Players this book is not for them
End Rant |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 03 Apr 2005 : 20:13:52
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Liriel Baenre had to deal with the same prejudices... Did she waste time complaining or moping about it? Nope, she shrugged her shoulders and got on with her life. That I can respect.
That's what I respect too. Complain, but then move on. Do something. Don't be too wracked with indecision. Drizzt is very brave in battle, but not very brave when it comes to dealing with his emotions and personal relationships.
There are other reasons besides this that I'm not too keen on Drizzt, and the same goes for most of the other people here who aren't that keen on him either.
quote:
You both might wish to be a bit more general and tread carefullly when it comes to using real world examples to try and illustrate a point about a fantasy character in a made up world.
Agreed. Both real world examples weren't very good, because in Faerun, the fact is most drow ARE evil, and the fear of drow most people have is more than justified. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 03 Apr 2005 : 19:58:40
Sirius, I respect you greatly and have enjoyed a lot of points you have made on a lot of topics, but I have to say that I don't think that I have said anything wrong, nor do I think that my comments comparing a fantasy world to a real world analogy are out of line. Considering the author himself, R A Salvatore, has mentioned the theme of racism, a real world evil, I don't see how my comment is beyond the pale.
That having been said, if anyone was offended by my comment, I would welcome a conversation with them. If I have said anything out of turn I would apologize to them.
And I also apologize to Big Al for the derailment of this thread, and would respectfully ask that if said comments on the above should need to be hashed out that we all do so in another thread that is more appropriate to the topic.
Thanks everyone. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 03 Apr 2005 : 16:18:11
Oh, I'll not disagree with you about the whinning comment, I just thought the analogy needed a bit of clarification. And I'm not a Drizzt basher by nature . . . 5 years ago I would have vehemently defended Drizzt reputation, but quite frankly, I am a little burned out on him after the "Hunter's Blades" trilogy.
As as a grow older I am starting to realize I am actually more of a Bruenor fan . . . |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Apr 2005 : 16:13:36
Khorne, KnightErrantJR, I'll grant that both of you are right.
Yes, Drizzt has to deal with a lot of crap from surface-dwellers, simply because of his race. And yes, that's got to draw vacuum after a while...
But... I got the point back in The Legacy. I don't need to know that it sucks to be Drizzt in every single book. One or two complaints, entirely justified. Every book containing at least one "Woe is me, a friendly drow in an unfriendly surface world  " is too much for me. Continuous repetitions of the same complaint is whining.
Liriel Baenre had to deal with the same prejudices... Did she waste time complaining or moping about it? Nope, she shrugged her shoulders and got on with her life. That I can respect. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 03 Apr 2005 : 14:48:33
Actually I would say Drizzt's situation is more like a person of Middle Eastern decent living in the United States. Many people hate and fear you when they don't even know you, but they may have had good reason to hate and fear someone like you. The fear is understandable, but really sadly misplaced, in both the real world and in the story lines. |
| khorne |
Posted - 03 Apr 2005 : 11:06:08
All right Wooly, I forgive you.
But think about this: His essays may seem a bit whiny but he is a drow living on the surface and those who don`t know him hate him! It would be like a black person living somewhere where almost everyone is a member of KKK! Under these circumstances it`s no wonder he gets depressed. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 03 Apr 2005 : 01:32:29
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Apparently I am. Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike Drizzt Do'Urden. I just think he's had too much airtime, and I got tired of the whiny nature of his little essays or interludes or whatever you call them.
Essays/Interludes.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Apr 2005 : 19:44:35
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, and SB? You think you can stop me from getting the Waterdeep book? That's like trying to stop Drizzt from whining about how tough it is to be a drow!  
Are you insulting my favorite forgotten realms character, Wooly?
Apparently I am. Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike Drizzt Do'Urden. I just think he's had too much airtime, and I got tired of the whiny nature of his little essays or interludes or whatever you call them. |
| khorne |
Posted - 02 Apr 2005 : 18:50:16
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, and SB? You think you can stop me from getting the Waterdeep book? That's like trying to stop Drizzt from whining about how tough it is to be a drow!
Are you insulting my favorite forgotten realms character, Wooly? |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 01 Apr 2005 : 04:52:07
I remember when my friend would DM Greyhawk and I had the Realms, he rarely looked into my FR stuff, but I didn't have a problem if he did. I on the other hand, always looked at new Greyhawk stuff, but I never shared any "metagame" interest with the other PCs in the campaign. I was just too curious to not read "City of Greyhawk" or "From the Ashes" to let them slip by, and besides, it lead so some of our great Waterdeep/Greyhawk debates . . .
In a long term campaign in a setting your players are bound to learn a few secrets that will stay with them even when they make up new characters in a new part of the world. Eventually its a matter of maturity. Then again . . . I remember the old 1st edition DMG rants about what is and isn't a proper game of D&D and what players must never know lurks in the DMG and all of that. |
| Melfius |
Posted - 22 Mar 2005 : 07:28:23
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Have no fear, it made sense. And your players sound...colorful.
Well, a few descriptors come to mind, but 'colorful' wasn't one of them! |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 22 Mar 2005 : 02:55:17
quote:
Originally posted by Melfius
Um, okay, that made little-to-no sense, but I'm going to leave it in my post for the laugh.
Have no fear, it made sense. And your players sound...colorful. |
| Melfius |
Posted - 21 Mar 2005 : 23:37:13
Well, I have a simliar problem that comes from metagaming. I have several players who think it's cute/fun/funny to try and find a reason why their player would do what he normally wouldn't based on information he shouldn't have.
Um, okay, that made little-to-no sense, but I'm going to leave it in my post for the laugh.
What I am trying to say is that I have players who try to argue their way into using whatever player knowledge they can. To use the above Vaprak example, if their character did not know who Vaprak was, but the player did, they would make sure the character researched the subject until they were positive that they could argue that their character would know as much as the player did. It can be irritating, but I have found that it is easier to let them think they figured it all out, then change things around on them at the end to 'put them in their place'. Oddly enough, it doesn't seem to be working. 
Regardless, I still think it should be okay for players to buy what books they want. It makes it easier to not have to worry about things that are commmon knowledge (the player's already know and I don't have to waste game time explaining them). Also, I'll be the first to admit (but by no means the last) that I'm not perfect. So if a player sees that I missed an important bit of info, he/she is free to let me know. At the very least I know they're paying attention! |
| Zigywig |
Posted - 21 Mar 2005 : 22:13:59
Either Friday or Monday.
Saturday I'm car hunting, Sunday with family. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 21 Mar 2005 : 06:34:24
quote:
Originally posted by Zigywig
hehehe...I am said player....
I'm also a big fan of FR and own/or am reading all of the novels - thus I love the source books and will continue to buy them. Though my character is completely ignorant of said events/happenings within Toril. But it is funny seeing the look on Dargoth's face when you show him your copy of the latest FR sourcebook.
You ever need some information from a product or novel that Dargoth won't allow, you just message me and I'll hook you up.
SB who chants "Attica, Attica..." as he continues to browse the forums. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 21 Mar 2005 : 06:25:49
quote:
Originally posted by Zigywig
hehehe...I am said player. Dargoth is not that bad...He's just enthusiastic about FR. I am also the one running the The Worlds Largest Dungeon (in FR setting) and the Star Wars campaign...thus I find the DM's material indispensible.
I'm also a big fan of FR and own/or am reading all of the novels - thus I love the source books and will continue to buy them. Though my character is completely ignorant of said events/happenings within Toril. But it is funny seeing the look on Dargoth's face when you show him your copy of the latest FR sourcebook.
So what day are we play WLD this weekend?
PS: Hes the one who ran the Cleric of Tempus |
| Zigywig |
Posted - 21 Mar 2005 : 06:01:31
hehehe...I am said player. Dargoth is not that bad...He's just enthusiastic about FR. I am also the one running the The Worlds Largest Dungeon (in FR setting) and the Star Wars campaign...thus I find the DM's material indispensible.
I'm also a big fan of FR and own/or am reading all of the novels - thus I love the source books and will continue to buy them. Though my character is completely ignorant of said events/happenings within Toril. But it is funny seeing the look on Dargoth's face when you show him your copy of the latest FR sourcebook. |
| Mareka |
Posted - 20 Mar 2005 : 17:50:51
In all fairness, Dargoth doesn't ban all source material. |
| Chosen of Bane |
Posted - 19 Mar 2005 : 21:12:23
I currently play in one campaign and DM another (we alternate weeks) and the only two people in our gaming group that read the novels are me and the other DM. In the game that I play do I think it gives me an advantage or ruins my fun because I read the novels and own all the sourcesbooks? Absolutely not. It is very easy for me to know that Jattikus Coldstone Hornblower the Strongheart Bard does not have the same info as Eric the grad student.
Last session we found an old map that had "Vaprak's cave" as a place that we wanted to explore. Now, because I knew that Vaprak was the god of Ogre's doesn't mean my PC went out and bought Giant Bane items. I didn't tell anyother players who vaprak was because I didn't want to ruin their fun (although it probably wouldn't have).
Like Rinonalyrna Fathomlin stated, it I do think it would be insulting if my DM said to me, hey, The Rite has info on who Vaprak is so I don't want you reading the book. Does he not think I am capable of separating? And, he is the DM but he doesn't have any influence on my out of game life. If I want to see how the year of rogue dragons plays out I will read it, regardless of his desires.
Now, if I am running a published adventure (such as City of the Spider Queen) I would prefer they not read it first for suprise value but I would not pretend to control what they can and can not buy.
If players can't read sourcebooks how are they supposed to know the common knowledge that the people of the region would know. Lets say the PC makes his character from Tilverton. He is denied access to sourcebooks, how is he to know his town has been destroyed? Or the great situation of....I wrote my character history, I've been a cleric of Bane for 10 years. What do you mean he only came back in 1372? Guess it's back to the drawing board.
I feel that trying to disallow your players from reading sourcebooks you are insulting their ability to role-play and inhibiting the amount of background they can give their character.
But you seem to think it's a good idea to ban source material so who are we to judge. |
| SirUrza |
Posted - 19 Mar 2005 : 20:18:26
The problem is, if you label a book DMs only, guess what? You end of with City of the Spider Queen sales all over again. It doesn't matter WHAT material is in the book, as long as it's on shiney paper, an unnecessary hardcover, and a $20+ price tag, WOTC must make everyone think they need to buy it. |
| Mareka |
Posted - 19 Mar 2005 : 18:58:27
I'm the only person in my group who bought LEoF, and I'm not the DM. He went through the book and said outright what sections he was going to use and not to read them if I wanted to be surprised. It was easy enough for me to skip those sections. I can always go back and read them after the campaign. And though I know a lot about the Realms, I'm not going to tell people who don't want to read everything, secrets that would reveal things about the storyline we're playing through. Besides, as Sirius said, the DM may alter things. It comes down to trust- that the players don't purposely look up information in order to gain information the PCs are seeking in the game, or start looking up the monster in the middle of a combat with it (which amazingly enough, I've seen people do!)
I've played in games, too, where there was almost zero access to information, and I lost interest rather quickly because I felt no connection to the setting at all. I imagine there are other detailed oriented players who would feel the same way. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 19 Mar 2005 : 02:48:13
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Yes, Sirius Black, that was more or less what I was trying to say. And I apologize if my comment came across as rude.
Glad I got something right. Thanks for being tolerant of my attempts at an interpretation.
No problem--I appreciate it. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 19 Mar 2005 : 01:10:53
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Yes, Sirius Black, that was more or less what I was trying to say. And I apologize if my comment came across as rude.
Glad I got something right. Thanks for being tolerant of my attempts at an interpretation. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 23:50:14
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Im not even going to dignify that with a response
Well in the attempt to make sure it doesn't get to hot in here, I'll try an interpretation of what I feel Rinonalyrna Fathomlin was addressing by her statement...
If I'm wrong RF be kinder to me than you were to The Forsaken House
LOL!
quote:
What I think was being conveyed was, why do you feel it will become that problematic for these players to obtain certain gaming products like LEOF? Have they shown a history in the past where they lacked the maturity or intelligence to understand the difference between what they know and/or what their players know? Was there a bad situation with something like this in your gaming past? I'm very curious as to what necessitated what many here apparently consider a heavy handed action.
Yes, Sirius Black, that was more or less what I was trying to say. And I apologize if my comment came across as rude. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 17:50:29
quote:
Originally posted by tauster
i imagine it would be a lot harder when a group has more than one "realms-junkies" (like me) or the junky is not the one dmīing, so i think your points of view valid for different groups.
Perhaps that's the difference. The majority of people I gamed with in the past since the early 90s and all of them now are passionate about the Realms. They delight in reading novels and at times other products that contain Realms lore. To have a rule or guideline, whatever floats your boat, that says don't read this, would be insulting to them as fellow Realms fans.
Moreover, the vast majority have all been adults capable of making their own decisions. If they have ruined something because they read about it beforehand well then I've gamed with the best damn set of actors in the world who all deserve an Academy Award. But, then again, I don't follow something in a sourcebook letter by letter. Thus, what starts out as appearing to be the "fours sons of Vyshaan" may turn out to be a trap designed by the characters' enemies in Freeport. |
| tauster |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 10:48:02
thereīs another problem with "forbidden" player knowledge that hasnīt come up here but seems to me more important than possible metagaming (which should be no problem at all with mature players):
when i play in a campaign, i donīt read the module first, period.
sure, i could read it and separate in-character and out-character- knowledge without any problems, but the whole thing would be a lot less fun to me! the same applies to most sourcebooks, in particular those like LEoF, where most of the content is background for adventures.
would i use something from LEoF for example, iīd advise my players not to buy the book. instead, i copy the infos from the book i deem important/essential for their respective characters or that should be common knowledge etc. perhaps i write an introductory short story or things like that.
my players think likewise; no one would "snoop" into sourcebooks or novels that deal with gaming-relevant stuff without asking me. that has absolutely nothing to do with my "authority as dm" or "being a domitating person", and neither do i revel in it nor do my players harbor bad feelings against me.
itīs just that you simply can not be really surprised when knowing important stuff beforehand. and surprise, like tension, is a major part of roleplaying experience.
that does not mean this "policy" is absolute: itīs more a guideline than a hard and fast rule, but one that works very well for us. i imagine it would be a lot harder when a group has more than one "realms-junkies" (like me) or the junky is not the one dmīing, so i think your points of view valid for different groups.
|
| Alaundo |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 09:10:57
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Without being sarcastic, I have to agree. I know I certainly would ignore any DM telling me what gaming materials I could and couldn't buy -- it's my dollar, I'll spend it how I want.
No you won't. I forbid you as senior Great Reader from buying any future FR products without my approval.
Let it be so,
SB
Okay. I'll just tell Big Al you won't let me buy Realms stuff, and we'll see what he has to say about it. 
  Listen not, Wooly. Go get all the Realms material ye can find |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 04:46:18
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Im not even going to dignify that with a response
Well in the attempt to make sure it doesn't get to hot in here, I'll try an interpretation of what I feel Rinonalyrna Fathomlin was addressing by her statement...
If I'm wrong RF be kinder to me than you were to The Forsaken House
What I think was being conveyed was, why do you feel it will become that problematic for these players to obtain certain gaming products like LEOF? Have they shown a history in the past where they lacked the maturity or intelligence to understand the difference between what they know and/or what their players know? Was there a bad situation with something like this in your gaming past? I'm very curious as to what necessitated what many here apparently consider a heavy handed action. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 04:34:13
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
*nods* I'd say that not allowing players to read novels or sourcebooks to prevent meta-gaming can be seen as an insult to their intelligence. But whatever works for the group, I suppose.
Im not even going to dignify that with a response |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 03:53:39
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, and SB? You think you can stop me from getting the Waterdeep book? That's like trying to stop Drizzt from whining about how tough it is to be a drow!
|
