| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Kitira Gildragon |
Posted - 02 Jan 2003 : 14:12:31
Is it possible for non-elves to build a mythal? If so, do they follow the same or similar guidelines, such as # of people? And do all of the participants in the first two rings have to be mages? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| AlacLuin |
Posted - 13 Sep 2005 : 01:06:57
I've had this discussion about Silverymoon's "mythal"
first point is WotC's current definition of a "Mythal" (As seen in LEoF)
"Any permanent magical ward or Field raised via epic magic can be considered a Mythal"
This same tome does offer the distinction between 3 different type of "Mythals"
There are...
True Mythals- consist of most of the ancient Elvin realms, many are listed in Magic of Faerun
Wizard Mythals- as the creation of the "true Mythal" type has been forgotten by it's time, Myth Drannor is an example of of a Wizard Mythal, but LEoF does call this a true Mythal.
Near Mythal- This is where Silverymoon fits in, at least until LEoF changed the History to make it a Wizard Mythal
WotC did change the History to accommodate things, even if they didn't need to change it.
It is LEoF that states Alustriel (and others) Raised the Mythal in 843 DR.
While the North has
“843 The High Lady Amaara, Elué, Elénaril, Lynx, and three other mages casting in concert create the magical Moonbridge of Silverymoon, replacing the stone bridge that lasted over four centuries.”
Ok, Elue is Alustriel, but here their involvement is limited to the Bridge only.
So, are Silverymoon's Wards a Mythal?
If you accept the expanding definition of what a Mythal is, yes it is.
If one wants to make the distinction between a Near Mythal and a True Mythal, no it's not the same.
Now, I'd most likely have less issues if it was stated Ecamane Truesilver raised a Wizard Mythal.
Is any of this really going to effect game play?
No, not at all.
Am I being nit picky?
Maybe, OK, Sure I am. |
| Melfius |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 18:06:30
Not a bad idea, Wooly. In one of my campaigns, I had my PCs present when Alustriel led the creation of the mythal for Silverymoon. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 15:59:44
Actually, that's not bad.
I've laid suggestions in my campaigns about ancient habitations in and around the Silverymoon area. It wouldn't take much to extend that line of thinking and suggest that at some point in the ancient past... a mythal-like energy field was raised around the old city to protect it from something.
I'd divert from here though... Perhaps it was raised in haste, and not properly tended to after it was created. This led to significant degradation and as time passed and arcane attention on the mythal decreased, the field decayed... almost to a point where it completely collapsed. Current practitioners of the Art have tried to supplement its abilities with magic wards of their own devising, but this has only met with limited success -- as such, the mythal of Silverymoon today is much weaker when compared to what it was during the days of the ancient city.
Of course, this changes the lore a little. However, it really all depends on how strong the DM believes the mythal was during the time of the ancient elven city like Wooly suggested. It's in keeping with my general campaign though. Without specific knowledge, the inhabitants of today could believe that the mythal is powerful enough.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 15:32:25
My personal spin on Silverymoon's mythal is that the mythal is a remnant of an elven city that once stood there. After the city was abandoned, the mythal eventually weakened and/or became dormant.
When Silverymoon was built, the effects of the mythal weren't strong enough to be noticed. But the years of life in the city, along with the amount of magic that's been cast, has revitalized the mythal. Maybe a special ritual, recently conducted, was needed to fully reawaken it...
Anyway, that's one way of explaining how Silverymoon went from just heavily warded to a full-on mythal city. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 14:25:33
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Who'll drop another idea into the thought pool--maybe naming the rulers of Silverymoon as High Mages is not just an honorific....what if they have actual abilities akin to if not equal to High Mages? 
An intriguing notion, but not something I feel comfortable adopting for my campaigns.
Of course, it helps in explaining the whole mythal-issue with regard to Silverymoon -- but like you said... there's an inherent danger within a campaign when you make epic or high magic more common than it should be.
Taking that into consideration, I'd look at the Silverymoon "mythal" as something that isn't commonplace and leave an explanation of it until it was completely necessary. Not every element of the Realms requires an explanation after all, and sometimes the campaign is even more engrossing when the answers aren't easily discernable.
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| Steven Schend |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 13:08:19
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Mind you, the answer I provided previously was based on the information then available. LEoF has now made it clear that mythals are just epic magic rituals, and don't specifically require High Magic or elves to create.
In that case, the mythal that surrounds Silverymoon could have been created by any number of its High Mage rulers down the centuries including Ecamane Truesilver, Ederan Nharimlur and others (including Alustriel posing - and taking the name of her mother in the process - of Elue Dualen).
-- George Krashos
Answer the first--Yes, there are Myth Whattheheck cities out there NOT made by elves. What they do use is Mythanthar's spell for wizards which allows for the creation of a true non-High Magic mythal. Anything else (IMO) created without elves or High Magic is not a mythal.
Epic magic is all well and good, and it opens up lots of avenues for people to play...but I think it really is a losing game in terms of making the most amazing stuff too commonplace. Hell, if epic magic is all it takes, why doesn't every wizard vizier conjure up moonblade level swords for the king's guard? Sorry--this is one of my hot-buttons (the "do the rules trump the lore or vice-versa?" question). I'll go cool off...
Steven
Who'll drop another idea into the thought pool--maybe naming the rulers of Silverymoon as High Mages is not just an honorific....what if they have actual abilities akin to if not equal to High Mages? |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 03:54:06
Mind you, the answer I provided previously was based on the information then available. LEoF has now made it clear that mythals are just epic magic rituals, and don't specifically require High Magic or elves to create.
In that case, the mythal that surrounds Silverymoon could have been created by any number of its High Mage rulers down the centuries including Ecamane Truesilver, Ederan Nharimlur and others (including Alustriel posing - and taking the name of her mother in the process - of Elue Dualen).
-- George Krashos
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| The Sage |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 03:20:38
Not as such. It's actually assumed to be an error in Silver Marches.
It can be regarded as a series of mythal-like effects, rather than a "true" mythal. It might explain why the listing in MoF didn't mention Silverymoon. Remember that SM came out after MoF, so the details in SM are actually more accurate. In that tome, Silverymoon's mythal is referred to as both a series of wards and a mythal.
Here's some thoughts from Krash -
quote:
Seriously, the mythal reference is very explainable. First, a DM has to choose whether they want it to be a mythal or spell wards. If they go the latter then all the info re this phenomenon (and when the wards were put in place) can be found in the North boxed set. If they go with the mythal thing, then basically make up some elven history at the site of present-day Silverymoon.
It is clear that the High Forest would have encompassed the area where Silverymoon is found in ages past. Why wouldn't there have been a mythal there? If it was created by Aryvandaar, then by the time humans settled the area the mythal would have been much decayed. What the humans have done is bolster the shreds of the mythal with their own spell craftings. It's not a fully functioning mythal (not many of those left in the Realms ...) but that doesn't mean it can't be described as such ... after all, Myth Drannor's mythal is described as such and it also has degraded dramatically in only 600 or so years.
Don't let minor details like that get you down. Everything is explainable - and most times, to the benefit of the campaign setting.
The reason I came up with that degraded mythal suggestion is that when I did a historical breakdown of the North I had to somehow reconcile the fact that Roger Moore had placed the capital of the elven realm of Illefarn at the site of present-day Waterdeep. I also had to deal with Elaine's reference in her novel Evermeet about the first colonists to that island also leaving from "Deepwater harbour". The solution was simple and elegant. The capital was built after the colonization of Evermeet (maybe the elves liked the spot when they left from there and earmarked it for future use) and when Illefarn began to fragment as a unified nation (it continued to exist in name only as a scattered grouping of elven sub-realms) then High Magic was used to raze the site. The the humans moved in ....
Essentially, this thinking made me realise that there must be a lot of hidden history of the demi-human races that is a useful back stop and back story for the present-day Realms.
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| Melfius |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 02:57:58
So the magic protecting Silverymoon is not a mythal? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 02:50:29
Additionally, here's some further thoughts from Eric -
quote:
quote:
Eric Boyd:
There are/were a lot more than three mythal cities, and there are many "near-mythals" as well. True mythals include those created by wizards and those created by elven High Mages. (I've often wondered if there's not a priestly variant as well.) I think Myth Drannor falls in the former camp and Myth Nantar in the latter camp, but I don't know for sure. "Near-mythals" are usually extensive magical wards, such as those created by the wizard spell "Wardmist" (detailed in various Volo's Guides). Of the true mythal cities, these are the ones we currently know about ...
Myth Drannor (detailed in Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves and Ruins of Myth Drannor)
Myth Nantar (mentioned in RoMD and detailed in Sea of Fallen Stars and (partially) in the Wyrmskull Throne)
Myth Lharest (mentioned in RoMD, briefly described in Lands of Intrigue: Amn and Faiths & Avatars (Selune write-up))
Myth Glauroch (mentioned in RoMD)
Myth Dyraalis (discussed in Lands of Intrigue: Tethyr
Myth Rhynn (discussed in Lands of Intrigue: Tethyr)
Myth Unnohyr (discussed in Lands of Intrigue: Tethyr)
Myth Ondeth (mentioned in VGtATM and Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves)
Myth Iiscar, a flying city which as fallen onto the isle of Lantan (discussed in Cormanthyr)
Myth Adofhaer, last city of Siluvanede in the High Forest, placed, along with its inhabitants, into stasis and removed from Faerun until certain conditions are met to restore it and its people to the Realms. (discussed in Cormanthyr)
Ascalhorn (the mythal is mentioned in The North and Hellgate Keep)
Of course, one wonders why Ascalhorn wasn't called "Myth Ascalhorn" or something like that ... ;-)
Although it's not a city, I seem to recall that Herald's Holdfast is protected by a mythal as well. I don't have my references handy to check.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 02:47:25
Magic of Faerun lists nearly all the Realms locations that have/or have had mythals.
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| Melfius |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 02:36:02
Okay, so is there a list somewhere of known mythal-cities? |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 01:41:58
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Mythal--an energy field tied to the Weave and to the lifeforces of all living things in and around it to sustain it. While not always attributed correctly, mythals should only refer to those things created by elven magic (High or otherwise, in the case of Myth Drannor).
Steven
Who's probably made more mistakes on mythal cities than he'd like...
Well, not that I like to disagree with the esteemed Mr Schend but he himself wrote about a mythal city, Myth Lharast, in the LOI boxed set that was quite plainly not created by elven magic.
Similarly, there is Myth Iliscar on Lantan that seemingly wasn't created by elven magic either.
As to why these cities have been given the "Myth ..." nomenclature is a bit of a mystery, although we could always blame Orgrath of Candlekeep who wrote of these places some 500 years ago in his now rare libram titled "The Wonders of Wizardry" ...
-- George Krashos
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| El Magnifico Uno |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 22:59:35
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't believe Myth Nantar was ever sacked... And its mythal is still strong.
720 DR (790 TS): With the Dukars absent, sahuagin raiding parties slaughter the remaining sea elf and merfolk guardians and look to destroy as much of Myth Nantar as possible, though they soon abandon
the city due to the uncomfortable nature (for them) of the mythal.
So maybe not sacked per se, but definitely ranking up there in the "heavily getting the snot kicked out of it" category.. Plus the mythal-Qos-coral thingy does weird stuff like make decisions on it's own to seal off the entire city for centuries on end, which is disturbing enough to qualify for the "horribly corrupt" award even if it hasn't technically decayed.. Mythals are evil I tell you!! Evil!! |
| warlockco |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 20:41:58
quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
quote:
Originally posted by kahonen
quote:
Originally posted by Kitira Gildragon
Is it possible for non-elves to build a mythal? If so, do they follow the same or similar guidelines, such as # of people? And do all of the participants in the first two rings have to be mages?
I'd say it's not possible. Your own explanation in your later post says "nonelves can be a part of the ritual too outside the primary casters" which I'd take to mean that the primary casters have to be Elves.
I also believe that allowing anyone to create a Mythal would take some of the mystery away from it and result it it becoming "just another bit of magic"
There are some sources, most notably the ones on Silverymoon, which talk about Mythal-like constructions. Basically a number of powerfull wards heaped on top of eachother, which grew over time to something resembling a Mythal. So while it is not possible to create a 'pure' Mythal without elven High Magic, it is possible (over time) to create something similar.
Lost Empires of Faerun confirmed that Silverymoon has a 100% Mythal. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 20:14:25
I don't believe Myth Nantar was ever sacked... And its mythal is still strong. |
| khorne |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 20:06:03
quote:
Originally posted by El Magnifico Uno
Mythals? Who in their right mind would want a mythal over their city??!... The damn things attract giant rampaging armies like nobody's business!... Plus they ALWAYS decay into some horrific monstrosity that causes more trouble down the line than you originally intended to avoid... If you raise a mythal, your city WILL get sacked within the next millenium, and become a horrific ruin infested by all sorts of nasty things... It's destiny, you can't avoid it... Best to stick with a psuedo-mythal, or convince a Chosen/Harper munchkin to set up shop in your burg... Your odds increase significantly that way...
Good point. |
| El Magnifico Uno |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 19:03:36
Mythals? Who in their right mind would want a mythal over their city??!... The damn things attract giant rampaging armies like nobody's business!... Plus they ALWAYS decay into some horrific monstrosity that causes more trouble down the line than you originally intended to avoid... If you raise a mythal, your city WILL get sacked within the next millenium, and become a horrific ruin infested by all sorts of nasty things... It's destiny, you can't avoid it... Best to stick with a psuedo-mythal, or convince a Chosen/Harper munchkin to set up shop in your burg... Your odds increase significantly that way... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 18:22:43
quote:
Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet
I've alvays thought tha Mythals and Mythallars are different things. Are they the same.I thought Mythals are powerful wards, while Mythallars help to create easier magic items and fly cities.
Indeed. Mythallars are basically giant magical batteries. |
| Talanfir Swiftfeet |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 15:52:16
I've alvays thought tha Mythals and Mythallars are different things. Are they the same.I thought Mythals are powerful wards, while Mythallars help to create easier magic items and fly cities. |
| Steven Schend |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 15:15:25
Was digging through old discussions and found this topic buried, so I thought I'd resurrect it for current discussion.
Mythal--an energy field tied to the Weave and to the lifeforces of all living things in and around it to sustain it. While not always attributed correctly, mythals should only refer to those things created by elven magic (High or otherwise, in the case of Myth Drannor).
Mythal-like field--If it's a massive spell-effect field but it's dependent on some focus or it was built by non-elves, you've got a powerful spell-field that's sometimes mistakenly called a mythal. This sort of things is what I dropped around the Imperial Mount of Shoonach to keep all other spells out save necromantic ones (so the emperor could stack the deck in his favor in major ways).
Now, I've not reread to see which places now claim to have mythals, but IMO, if its name isn't Myth Somethingorother, it's not a true or a wizardly mythal but a mythal-like field.
Then again, times have changed, and perhaps Silverymoon truly does have a wizardly mythal about itself and it just chooses not to advertise that fact. <shrug>
Other opinions? Confusions? Questions?
Steven
Who's probably made more mistakes on mythal cities than he'd like...
PS: Has anyone ever made any adventure use out of Myth Rhynn? Just askin'.... |
| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 23 Jan 2003 : 13:28:09
As per the story of return of Shade in the 'Return of the Archwizards' series, it is also possible for a shadow mage to help in constructing a mythal - well at least repairing it. This in itself is quite remarkable since there can be drastic effects of mixing weave magic with shadow weave magic... |
| Feanor_Karnil |
Posted - 09 Jan 2003 : 01:03:46
I'm positive a mythal can be created only by elves but in the FRCS pg.261, it refers to it as a mythallar under a portion about the nether scrolls. It reads as, 'The fledgling spellcasters of Netheril studied the scrolls and invented types of magic never seen before in Toril. The Netherese wizard Ioulaum created the mythallar that gave power to nearby items, negating the need for expenditure of a spellcaster's energy to create magic items. The mythallar also allowed the cration of flying cities, formed by slicing off and inverting the top of a mountain. Netheril's people took to the skies in these flying enclaves of magic, save from human barbarians and hordes of evil humanoids. Every citizen weilded minor magic, and the Netherese traded with nearby elven and dwarven nations, expanding the reach of their empire greatly.
I was looking through my book and under mythal it gave the pages from above.
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| Kitira Gildragon |
Posted - 06 Jan 2003 : 15:06:46
which basic requirements? For the elven mythal or is there a separate set for the wards, because if so, I am quite ignorant of their existence, mellonamin.  |
| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 06 Jan 2003 : 14:45:07
1) If not maintained/watched properly, these type of 'pseudo' mythals might detoriate/degenerate over time as well. Can't recall of the top of my head if anything like that was mentioned on the Silverymoon wards...
2) If said multi-classed wizard has his/her wizard-level high enough, it should be possible to contribute in the creation process of either a true mythal or a 'pseudo' mythal (just needs to meet basic requirements...) |
| Kitira Gildragon |
Posted - 06 Jan 2003 : 14:19:19
Hmmmm... Would this degenerate as well, Mumadar? and do you think it should be possible for a multi class wizard (several of them working together)? |
| Mumadar Ibn Huzal |
Posted - 06 Jan 2003 : 14:14:08
quote:
Originally posted by kahonen
quote:
Originally posted by Kitira Gildragon
Is it possible for non-elves to build a mythal? If so, do they follow the same or similar guidelines, such as # of people? And do all of the participants in the first two rings have to be mages?
I'd say it's not possible. Your own explanation in your later post says "nonelves can be a part of the ritual too outside the primary casters" which I'd take to mean that the primary casters have to be Elves.
I also believe that allowing anyone to create a Mythal would take some of the mystery away from it and result it it becoming "just another bit of magic"
There are some sources, most notably the ones on Silverymoon, which talk about Mythal-like constructions. Basically a number of powerfull wards heaped on top of eachother, which grew over time to something resembling a Mythal. So while it is not possible to create a 'pure' Mythal without elven High Magic, it is possible (over time) to create something similar. |
| Kitira Gildragon |
Posted - 06 Jan 2003 : 12:54:44
Mind you, I think that the book differentiated between High Magic and normal magic. I think that the wizard spell might have been used with Netheril, but it (the book) didn't get specific! |
| zemd |
Posted - 05 Jan 2003 : 15:45:21
as far as i remember, i think that elminster participated at the creation of the mythal. But i agree with kahonen, it's supposed to be long forgotten high level magic so players shouldn't even think about creating a Mythal. |
| kahonen |
Posted - 02 Jan 2003 : 20:12:42
quote:
Originally posted by Kitira Gildragon
Is it possible for non-elves to build a mythal? If so, do they follow the same or similar guidelines, such as # of people? And do all of the participants in the first two rings have to be mages?
I'd say it's not possible. Your own explanation in your later post says "nonelves can be a part of the ritual too outside the primary casters" which I'd take to mean that the primary casters have to be Elves.
I also believe that allowing anyone to create a Mythal would take some of the mystery away from it and result it it becoming "just another bit of magic" |
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