| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Kitira Gildragon
Learned Scribe
USA
191 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jan 2003 : 14:12:31
|
|
Is it possible for non-elves to build a mythal? If so, do they follow the same or similar guidelines, such as # of people? And do all of the participants in the first two rings have to be mages?
|
-Space for rent- |
|
|
Echon
Senior Scribe
Denmark
422 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2003 : 14:18:00
|
Beyond Netheril, I have not heard of non-elves creatings Mythals.
-Echon |
"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
-William Blake |
 |
|
|
Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2003 : 14:18:42
|
| What exactly ARE all the requirements for building a mythal? |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
|
|
|
|
Echon
Senior Scribe
Denmark
422 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2003 : 14:27:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rad
What exactly ARE all the requirements for building a mythal?
I do not claim that this is 100% percent true but I remember reading about this somewhere (either the Candlekeep FAQ or an adventure seated in Netheril) and as far as I remember it involved a 46th level mage or something along those lines.
-Echon |
"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
-William Blake |
|
|
|
Kitira Gildragon
Learned Scribe
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2003 : 14:35:21
|
According to Cormanthyr Empire of the Elves:
A Ritual of Myriad slowly links the casters of the ritual (a central quartet and a circle of nine assistants). The eldest High Mage acts as the focus of the ritual (known as the Grand Caster); he is surrounded by a circle of three Major Casters. While the Grand Caster builds the central energry sphere from which the mythal grows, the three Major Casters help shape the mythal in height, breadth, and depth. The Grand Caster sets one grand power of the mythal, which often matches the purpose for the Mythal's formation; he also sets one major and one minor power. The three Major Casters each grant a major and minor power to the mythal as well.
Surrounding the foursome is a concentric circle of nine spellcasters; since at least three more High Mages are required for the working, this thrid ring of nine people often consists of thos three High Mages with six high-level wizards or High Mage initiates (if not full Hig Mages). Only the central four are actually casting the mythal; the outer nine are secondary casters adding powers to the mythal and energy to the link between all casters. Each of the secondary casters can add up to two minor powers each to the mythal
It also says that there can be a 4th ring of 27 and a 5th (if needed) of 81. 4th and 5th ring participants do not need to be mages. They cannot add any powers to the mythal.
It says that nonelves can be a part of the ritual too outside the primary casters.
A fully developed High Magic mythal contains a max of 27 powers. 1 grand power, four major powers and 22 minor powers. It drains a collective 300 HP from participants.
This is what the book says on pages 139-140. On 140, though, it says that there is a wizardly spell (10th) level that can be cast with a possible drain of 400-800 HP. Is this what the mages of Netheril used? |
-Space for rent- |
|
|
|
kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2003 : 20:12:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kitira Gildragon
Is it possible for non-elves to build a mythal? If so, do they follow the same or similar guidelines, such as # of people? And do all of the participants in the first two rings have to be mages?
I'd say it's not possible. Your own explanation in your later post says "nonelves can be a part of the ritual too outside the primary casters" which I'd take to mean that the primary casters have to be Elves.
I also believe that allowing anyone to create a Mythal would take some of the mystery away from it and result it it becoming "just another bit of magic" |
|
|
|
zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2003 : 15:45:21
|
| as far as i remember, i think that elminster participated at the creation of the mythal. But i agree with kahonen, it's supposed to be long forgotten high level magic so players shouldn't even think about creating a Mythal. |
|
|
|
Kitira Gildragon
Learned Scribe
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2003 : 12:54:44
|
Mind you, I think that the book differentiated between High Magic and normal magic. I think that the wizard spell might have been used with Netheril, but it (the book) didn't get specific!  |
-Space for rent- |
|
|
|
Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2003 : 14:14:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by kahonen
quote:
Originally posted by Kitira Gildragon
Is it possible for non-elves to build a mythal? If so, do they follow the same or similar guidelines, such as # of people? And do all of the participants in the first two rings have to be mages?
I'd say it's not possible. Your own explanation in your later post says "nonelves can be a part of the ritual too outside the primary casters" which I'd take to mean that the primary casters have to be Elves.
I also believe that allowing anyone to create a Mythal would take some of the mystery away from it and result it it becoming "just another bit of magic"
There are some sources, most notably the ones on Silverymoon, which talk about Mythal-like constructions. Basically a number of powerfull wards heaped on top of eachother, which grew over time to something resembling a Mythal. So while it is not possible to create a 'pure' Mythal without elven High Magic, it is possible (over time) to create something similar. |
|
|
|
Kitira Gildragon
Learned Scribe
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2003 : 14:19:19
|
| Hmmmm... Would this degenerate as well, Mumadar? and do you think it should be possible for a multi class wizard (several of them working together)? |
-Space for rent- |
|
|
|
Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2003 : 14:45:07
|
1) If not maintained/watched properly, these type of 'pseudo' mythals might detoriate/degenerate over time as well. Can't recall of the top of my head if anything like that was mentioned on the Silverymoon wards...
2) If said multi-classed wizard has his/her wizard-level high enough, it should be possible to contribute in the creation process of either a true mythal or a 'pseudo' mythal (just needs to meet basic requirements...) |
Edited by - Mumadar Ibn Huzal on 06 Jan 2003 14:46:12 |
|
|
|
Kitira Gildragon
Learned Scribe
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2003 : 15:06:46
|
which basic requirements? For the elven mythal or is there a separate set for the wards, because if so, I am quite ignorant of their existence, mellonamin.  |
-Space for rent- |
|
|
|
Feanor_Karnil
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2003 : 01:03:46
|
I'm positive a mythal can be created only by elves but in the FRCS pg.261, it refers to it as a mythallar under a portion about the nether scrolls. It reads as, 'The fledgling spellcasters of Netheril studied the scrolls and invented types of magic never seen before in Toril. The Netherese wizard Ioulaum created the mythallar that gave power to nearby items, negating the need for expenditure of a spellcaster's energy to create magic items. The mythallar also allowed the cration of flying cities, formed by slicing off and inverting the top of a mountain. Netheril's people took to the skies in these flying enclaves of magic, save from human barbarians and hordes of evil humanoids. Every citizen weilded minor magic, and the Netherese traded with nearby elven and dwarven nations, expanding the reach of their empire greatly.
I was looking through my book and under mythal it gave the pages from above.
|
We live in a bleak world my friend, where heroes are few and shadows stalk us around every corner.
-Mikai Daerni |
|
|
|
Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2003 : 13:28:09
|
| As per the story of return of Shade in the 'Return of the Archwizards' series, it is also possible for a shadow mage to help in constructing a mythal - well at least repairing it. This in itself is quite remarkable since there can be drastic effects of mixing weave magic with shadow weave magic... |
|
|
|
Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1732 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 15:15:25
|
Was digging through old discussions and found this topic buried, so I thought I'd resurrect it for current discussion.
Mythal--an energy field tied to the Weave and to the lifeforces of all living things in and around it to sustain it. While not always attributed correctly, mythals should only refer to those things created by elven magic (High or otherwise, in the case of Myth Drannor).
Mythal-like field--If it's a massive spell-effect field but it's dependent on some focus or it was built by non-elves, you've got a powerful spell-field that's sometimes mistakenly called a mythal. This sort of things is what I dropped around the Imperial Mount of Shoonach to keep all other spells out save necromantic ones (so the emperor could stack the deck in his favor in major ways).
Now, I've not reread to see which places now claim to have mythals, but IMO, if its name isn't Myth Somethingorother, it's not a true or a wizardly mythal but a mythal-like field.
Then again, times have changed, and perhaps Silverymoon truly does have a wizardly mythal about itself and it just chooses not to advertise that fact. <shrug>
Other opinions? Confusions? Questions?
Steven
Who's probably made more mistakes on mythal cities than he'd like...
PS: Has anyone ever made any adventure use out of Myth Rhynn? Just askin'.... |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
|
|
|
|
Talanfir Swiftfeet
Learned Scribe
Finland
143 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 15:52:16
|
| I've alvays thought tha Mythals and Mythallars are different things. Are they the same.I thought Mythals are powerful wards, while Mythallars help to create easier magic items and fly cities. |
I am Talanfir Swiftfeet. (In)famous across the Swoardcoast as "Tal the Swift", Brandobaris´ seraph of mischief. If ye find yer shoelaces tied together while trying to catch a thief or meet a king who is angry because somebody switched the places of his chamberpot and his crown, ye can usually (try to) find me near.
If I had a halfling mother and a human father, would I be a half-halfling or a threequarterling? |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36964 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 18:22:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet
I've alvays thought tha Mythals and Mythallars are different things. Are they the same.I thought Mythals are powerful wards, while Mythallars help to create easier magic items and fly cities.
Indeed. Mythallars are basically giant magical batteries. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 19:03:36
|
| Mythals? Who in their right mind would want a mythal over their city??!... The damn things attract giant rampaging armies like nobody's business!... Plus they ALWAYS decay into some horrific monstrosity that causes more trouble down the line than you originally intended to avoid... If you raise a mythal, your city WILL get sacked within the next millenium, and become a horrific ruin infested by all sorts of nasty things... It's destiny, you can't avoid it... Best to stick with a psuedo-mythal, or convince a Chosen/Harper munchkin to set up shop in your burg... Your odds increase significantly that way... |
|
|
|
khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 20:06:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by El Magnifico Uno
Mythals? Who in their right mind would want a mythal over their city??!... The damn things attract giant rampaging armies like nobody's business!... Plus they ALWAYS decay into some horrific monstrosity that causes more trouble down the line than you originally intended to avoid... If you raise a mythal, your city WILL get sacked within the next millenium, and become a horrific ruin infested by all sorts of nasty things... It's destiny, you can't avoid it... Best to stick with a psuedo-mythal, or convince a Chosen/Harper munchkin to set up shop in your burg... Your odds increase significantly that way...
Good point. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36964 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 20:14:25
|
| I don't believe Myth Nantar was ever sacked... And its mythal is still strong. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 20:41:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
quote:
Originally posted by kahonen
quote:
Originally posted by Kitira Gildragon
Is it possible for non-elves to build a mythal? If so, do they follow the same or similar guidelines, such as # of people? And do all of the participants in the first two rings have to be mages?
I'd say it's not possible. Your own explanation in your later post says "nonelves can be a part of the ritual too outside the primary casters" which I'd take to mean that the primary casters have to be Elves.
I also believe that allowing anyone to create a Mythal would take some of the mystery away from it and result it it becoming "just another bit of magic"
There are some sources, most notably the ones on Silverymoon, which talk about Mythal-like constructions. Basically a number of powerfull wards heaped on top of eachother, which grew over time to something resembling a Mythal. So while it is not possible to create a 'pure' Mythal without elven High Magic, it is possible (over time) to create something similar.
Lost Empires of Faerun confirmed that Silverymoon has a 100% Mythal. |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
|
|
|
|
El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2005 : 22:59:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't believe Myth Nantar was ever sacked... And its mythal is still strong.
720 DR (790 TS): With the Dukars absent, sahuagin raiding parties slaughter the remaining sea elf and merfolk guardians and look to destroy as much of Myth Nantar as possible, though they soon abandon
the city due to the uncomfortable nature (for them) of the mythal.
So maybe not sacked per se, but definitely ranking up there in the "heavily getting the snot kicked out of it" category.. Plus the mythal-Qos-coral thingy does weird stuff like make decisions on it's own to seal off the entire city for centuries on end, which is disturbing enough to qualify for the "horribly corrupt" award even if it hasn't technically decayed.. Mythals are evil I tell you!! Evil!! |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 01:41:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Mythal--an energy field tied to the Weave and to the lifeforces of all living things in and around it to sustain it. While not always attributed correctly, mythals should only refer to those things created by elven magic (High or otherwise, in the case of Myth Drannor).
Steven
Who's probably made more mistakes on mythal cities than he'd like...
Well, not that I like to disagree with the esteemed Mr Schend but he himself wrote about a mythal city, Myth Lharast, in the LOI boxed set that was quite plainly not created by elven magic.
Similarly, there is Myth Iliscar on Lantan that seemingly wasn't created by elven magic either.
As to why these cities have been given the "Myth ..." nomenclature is a bit of a mystery, although we could always blame Orgrath of Candlekeep who wrote of these places some 500 years ago in his now rare libram titled "The Wonders of Wizardry" ...
-- George Krashos
|
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 02:36:02
|
| Okay, so is there a list somewhere of known mythal-cities? |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 02:50:29
|
Additionally, here's some further thoughts from Eric -
quote:
quote:
Eric Boyd:
There are/were a lot more than three mythal cities, and there are many "near-mythals" as well. True mythals include those created by wizards and those created by elven High Mages. (I've often wondered if there's not a priestly variant as well.) I think Myth Drannor falls in the former camp and Myth Nantar in the latter camp, but I don't know for sure. "Near-mythals" are usually extensive magical wards, such as those created by the wizard spell "Wardmist" (detailed in various Volo's Guides). Of the true mythal cities, these are the ones we currently know about ...
Myth Drannor (detailed in Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves and Ruins of Myth Drannor)
Myth Nantar (mentioned in RoMD and detailed in Sea of Fallen Stars and (partially) in the Wyrmskull Throne)
Myth Lharest (mentioned in RoMD, briefly described in Lands of Intrigue: Amn and Faiths & Avatars (Selune write-up))
Myth Glauroch (mentioned in RoMD)
Myth Dyraalis (discussed in Lands of Intrigue: Tethyr
Myth Rhynn (discussed in Lands of Intrigue: Tethyr)
Myth Unnohyr (discussed in Lands of Intrigue: Tethyr)
Myth Ondeth (mentioned in VGtATM and Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves)
Myth Iiscar, a flying city which as fallen onto the isle of Lantan (discussed in Cormanthyr)
Myth Adofhaer, last city of Siluvanede in the High Forest, placed, along with its inhabitants, into stasis and removed from Faerun until certain conditions are met to restore it and its people to the Realms. (discussed in Cormanthyr)
Ascalhorn (the mythal is mentioned in The North and Hellgate Keep)
Of course, one wonders why Ascalhorn wasn't called "Myth Ascalhorn" or something like that ... ;-)
Although it's not a city, I seem to recall that Herald's Holdfast is protected by a mythal as well. I don't have my references handy to check.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 02:57:58
|
| So the magic protecting Silverymoon is not a mythal? |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 03:20:38
|
Not as such. It's actually assumed to be an error in Silver Marches.
It can be regarded as a series of mythal-like effects, rather than a "true" mythal. It might explain why the listing in MoF didn't mention Silverymoon. Remember that SM came out after MoF, so the details in SM are actually more accurate. In that tome, Silverymoon's mythal is referred to as both a series of wards and a mythal.
Here's some thoughts from Krash -
quote:
Seriously, the mythal reference is very explainable. First, a DM has to choose whether they want it to be a mythal or spell wards. If they go the latter then all the info re this phenomenon (and when the wards were put in place) can be found in the North boxed set. If they go with the mythal thing, then basically make up some elven history at the site of present-day Silverymoon.
It is clear that the High Forest would have encompassed the area where Silverymoon is found in ages past. Why wouldn't there have been a mythal there? If it was created by Aryvandaar, then by the time humans settled the area the mythal would have been much decayed. What the humans have done is bolster the shreds of the mythal with their own spell craftings. It's not a fully functioning mythal (not many of those left in the Realms ...) but that doesn't mean it can't be described as such ... after all, Myth Drannor's mythal is described as such and it also has degraded dramatically in only 600 or so years.
Don't let minor details like that get you down. Everything is explainable - and most times, to the benefit of the campaign setting.
The reason I came up with that degraded mythal suggestion is that when I did a historical breakdown of the North I had to somehow reconcile the fact that Roger Moore had placed the capital of the elven realm of Illefarn at the site of present-day Waterdeep. I also had to deal with Elaine's reference in her novel Evermeet about the first colonists to that island also leaving from "Deepwater harbour". The solution was simple and elegant. The capital was built after the colonization of Evermeet (maybe the elves liked the spot when they left from there and earmarked it for future use) and when Illefarn began to fragment as a unified nation (it continued to exist in name only as a scattered grouping of elven sub-realms) then High Magic was used to raze the site. The the humans moved in ....
Essentially, this thinking made me realise that there must be a lot of hidden history of the demi-human races that is a useful back stop and back story for the present-day Realms.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 12 Sep 2005 03:24:03 |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6688 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 03:54:06
|
Mind you, the answer I provided previously was based on the information then available. LEoF has now made it clear that mythals are just epic magic rituals, and don't specifically require High Magic or elves to create.
In that case, the mythal that surrounds Silverymoon could have been created by any number of its High Mage rulers down the centuries including Ecamane Truesilver, Ederan Nharimlur and others (including Alustriel posing - and taking the name of her mother in the process - of Elue Dualen).
-- George Krashos
|
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1732 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 13:08:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Mind you, the answer I provided previously was based on the information then available. LEoF has now made it clear that mythals are just epic magic rituals, and don't specifically require High Magic or elves to create.
In that case, the mythal that surrounds Silverymoon could have been created by any number of its High Mage rulers down the centuries including Ecamane Truesilver, Ederan Nharimlur and others (including Alustriel posing - and taking the name of her mother in the process - of Elue Dualen).
-- George Krashos
Answer the first--Yes, there are Myth Whattheheck cities out there NOT made by elves. What they do use is Mythanthar's spell for wizards which allows for the creation of a true non-High Magic mythal. Anything else (IMO) created without elves or High Magic is not a mythal.
Epic magic is all well and good, and it opens up lots of avenues for people to play...but I think it really is a losing game in terms of making the most amazing stuff too commonplace. Hell, if epic magic is all it takes, why doesn't every wizard vizier conjure up moonblade level swords for the king's guard? Sorry--this is one of my hot-buttons (the "do the rules trump the lore or vice-versa?" question). I'll go cool off...
Steven
Who'll drop another idea into the thought pool--maybe naming the rulers of Silverymoon as High Mages is not just an honorific....what if they have actual abilities akin to if not equal to High Mages? |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
|
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 14:25:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Who'll drop another idea into the thought pool--maybe naming the rulers of Silverymoon as High Mages is not just an honorific....what if they have actual abilities akin to if not equal to High Mages?
An intriguing notion, but not something I feel comfortable adopting for my campaigns.
Of course, it helps in explaining the whole mythal-issue with regard to Silverymoon -- but like you said... there's an inherent danger within a campaign when you make epic or high magic more common than it should be.
Taking that into consideration, I'd look at the Silverymoon "mythal" as something that isn't commonplace and leave an explanation of it until it was completely necessary. Not every element of the Realms requires an explanation after all, and sometimes the campaign is even more engrossing when the answers aren't easily discernable.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Mythal
