| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Gellion |
Posted - 06 Nov 2004 : 23:00:11
Well, a topic over at WOTC about killing Mystra or Shar brought me to thinking about this. IMC, a group of level sixteen PCs could kill even a greater deity if they REALLY dared to do so. Meaning that if there was good RPing, and thinking and if it made for a good story, then I woud let them kill even a greater deity. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Faraer |
Posted - 15 Nov 2004 : 19:10:26
If these people kill gods before they learn to play their characters, understand the Realms, and therefore feel the ties necessary for epic adventures to be more than facile power fantasies, you're going to be implicated in jading your players and setting up an arms race of escalating expectations that will never be fulfilled untless they learn to relate to the setting in a less hollow way. That's my advice. |
| Forlorn |
Posted - 15 Nov 2004 : 19:00:59
Killing a god to end a story for children is a good idea, they would love that but I believe Gellion you should be plausible.
30th lv characters armed with tens of ancient artifacts collected from past and future from various planes after slaying lesser beings to a god like 100 balors in one combat, may slay a greater deity.
I remind you Myrkul, Bane and Bhaal becoming a god. After slaying tousands of denizens with all their power still they might not be able to kill Jergal. Tired Jergal left the throne to them to spilt among themselves.
And a pathatic thief, even human standards, called Cyric, a standart figter called Kelemvor and mid lv mage called Midnight became gods. If scenerio allows 10th lv character may become a god.
Torm was promoted to godhood by Tyr. And the likewise examples will go on.
But to me I might appreciate a group of players, who don't believe in gods and consider them overpowered mortals, to try becoming a god themselves. But the campaign should start with at least 20 lv player characters. When they are kings of some sort they might look for immortality like Gilgamesh and end up with godhood. |
| Zorro |
Posted - 14 Nov 2004 : 08:51:33
Adolescents in their late teens get together with kids in their early teens? Don't they just hate each other at their respective ages? Hm, you live and learn. At any rate, you live *g*
But the tender youth of your players shouldn't discourage you or them from something at least remotely resembling roleplaying. Otherwise you'd be well advised to switch over to D&D minis – they don't force people into that tedious roleplaying. (On the other hand, there are no gods among the minis – just aspects  )
Zorro |
| Gellion |
Posted - 14 Nov 2004 : 06:23:12
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Eh, makes more sense now. But you should encourage more roleplaying.
I do, that day they were good. Other days they are making Ninja hoods out of their shirts. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 14 Nov 2004 : 06:14:34
Eh, makes more sense now. But you should encourage more roleplaying. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 14 Nov 2004 : 01:00:01
quote:
Originally posted by Gellion
Sirius: All in their early teens to late teens.
Ah, understood and thank you for answering. |
| Gellion |
Posted - 13 Nov 2004 : 21:34:53
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
And yet you said that their roleplaying was "very good"?  
It was that day, sometimes it is hit or miss with them.
Sirius: All in their early teens to late teens. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 13 Nov 2004 : 14:53:58
quote:
Originally posted by Gellion
Anyways, my PCs all whine when they cant figure something out quickly, so it is mostly combat. Even if they didnt, the Barbarian would just bully a bunch of random peope until he got the info he wanted, and if they could not find it, they would complain.
What ages are these players? |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 13 Nov 2004 : 13:04:28
And yet you said that their roleplaying was "very good"? |
| Gellion |
Posted - 13 Nov 2004 : 12:37:02
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Hey, I know -- have them go after the moon next. After all, it's there . . . obviously it was meant to be attacked!  
I don't want to sound too harsh here, but I have to ask. Are you so strapped for ideas that you can't think of something less epic to do? Or is an in-depth, intricate campaign involving conspiracies, mysteries, and the like, all dealing with the "normal" world, simply beyond your ability to put together? It can't be that hard to think of a story that becomes a challenge without inserting gods who have to fight the PCs because as everyone knows, the PCs are extra-special-super-riffic people beyond any NPC they'll ever meet? 
I nver said my PCs were going to fight a god. It all depends on how the game goes. Anyways, my PCs all whine when they cant figure something out quickly, so it is mostly combat. Even if they didnt, the Barbarian would just bully a bunch of random peope until he got the info he wanted, and if they could not find it, they would complain. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 13 Nov 2004 : 11:44:25
Hey, I know -- have them go after the moon next. After all, it's there . . . obviously it was meant to be attacked!
I don't want to sound too harsh here, but I have to ask. Are you so strapped for ideas that you can't think of something less epic to do? Or is an in-depth, intricate campaign involving conspiracies, mysteries, and the like, all dealing with the "normal" world, simply beyond your ability to put together? It can't be that hard to think of a story that becomes a challenge without inserting gods who have to fight the PCs because as everyone knows, the PCs are extra-special-super-riffic people beyond any NPC they'll ever meet? |
| Gellion |
Posted - 13 Nov 2004 : 11:26:50
quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
I have to agree that I too enjoy having an undefined power able to be accessed without training or consequence strike down my foe's defenses. It's so much more fun than researching one's opponent, planning a logical offense, gathering allies if needed, and using one's own skills to find victory. Who needs an enemy that must be eliminated with tactics, intelligence, and roleplaying?
It was cause of their RPing that I let them. If you had been there you would have seen why. They did use some tactics too, they had a fleet of refuge Elves attack the city so they could get into the area where the Cleric was easily. |
| Sourcemaster2 |
Posted - 13 Nov 2004 : 02:42:48
I have to agree that I too enjoy having an undefined power able to be accessed without training or consequence strike down my foe's defenses. It's so much more fun than researching one's opponent, planning a logical offense, gathering allies if needed, and using one's own skills to find victory. Who needs an enemy that must be eliminated with tactics, intelligence, and roleplaying? |
| Gellion |
Posted - 13 Nov 2004 : 02:22:35
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Things like that may have worked in, oh, Planescape. Maybe.
But in the Realms? I maintain: flimsy excuse for a cheap plot device.
Heh, my players thought it was cool and fun. So that is all that really matters. |
| Winterfox |
Posted - 12 Nov 2004 : 02:49:04
Things like that may have worked in, oh, Planescape. Maybe.
But in the Realms? I maintain: flimsy excuse for a cheap plot device. |
| Gellion |
Posted - 12 Nov 2004 : 00:47:52
quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
quote:
But if we're talking about atmosphere and a minimum of believability you have to fill the Realms with, forget about the mysterious cleric which just has to tell the adventurers that they have to believe in themselves, and – poof! – anything becomes possible,
I meant to ask about this myself. Just what power was this? A universal spirit or something similar, I believe you stated previously. While this isn't a valid divine power in FR, it's your campaign, so whatever, so long as you give some kind of limit. By what you said, all the party had to do is "believe" and the cleric's defenses fell. Umm....to me this translates into an overly simple method used by a party that needs a slightly ludicrous reason to defeat a foe far beyond their means and couldn't come up with anything better. Unless this
"power" is sentient and able to manifest some sort of avatar-like abilities, it can't just woosh in and win the battle for them. The only way they could access divine magic of any sort is through clerical training, so unless your PCs became clerics of this mysterious, hippy-dippy force(and somehow managed to gain quite a few levels in the class) it's a bit absurd that they could sunder a high cleric's magical shields.
The power IS the power all of the races have inherent in them. It is just that most of them do not realize it. I gathered that the players realized that the power was a possible only a one time thing, but it may pop up again.
They still did have to fight the Cleric even after having his shiled broken, and he still banged them up pretty bad, so it was not an instant win. |
| Sourcemaster2 |
Posted - 11 Nov 2004 : 20:25:32
quote:
But if we're talking about atmosphere and a minimum of believability you have to fill the Realms with, forget about the mysterious cleric which just has to tell the adventurers that they have to believe in themselves, and – poof! – anything becomes possible,
I meant to ask about this myself. Just what power was this? A universal spirit or something similar, I believe you stated previously. While this isn't a valid divine power in FR, it's your campaign, so whatever, so long as you give some kind of limit. By what you said, all the party had to do is "believe" and the cleric's defenses fell. Umm....to me this translates into an overly simple method used by a party that needs a slightly ludicrous reason to defeat a foe far beyond their means and couldn't come up with anything better. Unless this
"power" is sentient and able to manifest some sort of avatar-like abilities, it can't just woosh in and win the battle for them. The only way they could access divine magic of any sort is through clerical training, so unless your PCs became clerics of this mysterious, hippy-dippy force(and somehow managed to gain quite a few levels in the class) it's a bit absurd that they could sunder a high cleric's magical shields. |
| Zorro |
Posted - 11 Nov 2004 : 15:43:38
Oh well, the stuff bad novels and movies are made of...
If TSR hadn't published stats for the gods in ancient times – which made me laugh heartily back then, since I had a feeling where that would lead –, no one would come up with this idea and be taken seriously nowadays. Admittedly some hi-octane campaign settings (and of course all too many novels in which no less than the fate of the world is at stake) encourage players to set this goal for themselves, but that neither means that it's in itself any good, nor that it's atmospheric – which IMHO it is decidedly not. "Give it stats, and players will wanna kill it", as the old saying goes.
Frankly, any novel or movie in which the climax consists of a couple of heroes killing off a god would hardly stir my interest – let alone an adventure. I guess dragons, demons and devils just don't do anymore. There are so incredibly many challenges the Realms have to offer, yet it has to be a god that's to be faced. Honestly, how can a divine being, a source of magic for thousands over thousands of spellcasters all over the setting to whom it grants spells, miracles and what have you, a being that, sometimes with, sometimes against multiple other gods, steers the fate of the setting, be reduced to stats which happen to be on a scale that can be reached by mere mortals?
Anyway, if we're talking about the naked rules, your party would have to be on a considerably higher level to even think about such a venture. But if we're talking about atmosphere and a minimum of believability you have to fill the Realms with, forget about the mysterious cleric which just has to tell the adventurers that they have to believe in themselves, and – poof! – anything becomes possible, and what's more, forget about the soon-to-fall-prey-to-the-party god. It just might lessen your experience of immersing yourselves in the Realms for years to come.
Just my two coppers.
Zorro |
| Gellion |
Posted - 10 Nov 2004 : 01:24:06
quote:
Originally posted by Kitira Gildragon
Nothing... if you have no issue with bending the rules in such a totaly insane way. If you're going to do something like that, you may as well make it totally freeform and just storybased- beause you're already ignoring stats and the like.
As Winterfox said (and I'm rather sure everyone else on this thread is more than likely to agree) it's your campaign, and your players agree to it, but you're really gyping yourselves in doing so.
We do follow the rules most of the time. It is just that every once in a while I like to bend them, sometimes A LOT. |
| Kitira Gildragon |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 23:16:32
Nothing... if you have no issue with bending the rules in such a totaly insane way. If you're going to do something like that, you may as well make it totally freeform and just storybased- beause you're already ignoring stats and the like.
As Winterfox said (and I'm rather sure everyone else on this thread is more than likely to agree) it's your campaign, and your players agree to it, but you're really gyping yourselves in doing so. |
| Gellion |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 22:57:38
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Mmm.
If this were a story, and the DM is the author, I'd be accusing the author of creating "author's darlings" characters. There's a line between "bend some rules to tell a good story" and "Let's rape the rules and warp reality. Who cares about logic? I want the characters to be rampaging, god-moding uber-munchskins, teeheehee!" I don't call it "thinking outside the box" so much as "randomly pulling stilted, hackneyed deus ex machina out of the hat." Especially this bit:
quote:
Basically what she did was help them realize the power they had with in them, not the power of the gods, but the power that all races inherently posess, the power that surpasses all boundaries of race and language. They were able to use this to break his the Cleric's shield around him. Which let them damage him normally. I even had a bit of foreshadwoing in that the NPC Human female Cleric, whose power stems from her belive in all the races of Toril, said that the power they used to defeat the Cleric might one day be used again.
...to which I can only say: what the bleeding, screaming hell? It might just be me, and I may be ignorant of the context/background of what's transpired prior in the campaign, but this doesn't make one bit of sense to me. For that matter, it also looks like an obvious plot device that transcends all established lore, laws, and so on.
It's your campaign. Do whatever you want, but if you're asking other people's opinions, this is what you'll get. Sixteenth-level characters taking on a god? Hur hur hur. Maybe if you saturate them with hallucinogens and make them think they're taking on and defeating a divine entity.
Heh, it may have been a plot device, but all of the players had a lot of fun and really enjoyed the session. So what is wrong with that? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 18:11:54
I'm going with the general consensus, here. Even the weakest gods could wipe out a bunch of 16th-level characters with just an avatar... Add in their clerics and any critters the avatar might summon, or allies of the deity... Grab the dice, it's time to roll up new characters!
Even if the entire party was made of Mystra's Chosen, I just don't see this one happening. |
| Mystery_Man |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 16:54:49
A balor could paralyze a 16th level party and wipe them out if played properly.
Saying that, the lowest level god in the pantheon would wipe out a 16th level party before they even had their bags packed to start out the journey to go kill the god.
 |
| Capn Charlie |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 11:41:51
Look, while I don't buy a 16th level group(or any mere mortals for that matter) taking on a god directly and winning... I do buy them defeatign the god in such a way as they are destroyed through non direct means.
I am reminded of an old story I once read about dragon slayers, and instead of facign the beast in direct combat, they laid traps for it, crushing it with rocks from above as it exited it's cave. In another, they fed it a sheep whose gullet hasd been stuffed with poisoned mushrooms, and other similiar stories.
Tales abound with people using their wits to overcome foes far their superior in "honorable" combat. And while I know a God(for gods' sake) is a bit more than a dragon, but the same might hold true.
For an epic campaign(and I do not mean epic level) to culminate with the defeat of a god is fine, and could be highly enjoyable for all involved. But it would be through non conventional means, using plot items and various powerful allies and fulfilling ancient prophecies to defeat the deity... if not outright kill it.
Ancient prophecies fulfilled, relics from teh past returned to the present, items of untold power, et cetera... all could allow players to defeat gods.
Thing is, it isn't believable. But neither is most of what happens in DnD, and mere human fighters able to fall from a low orbit and survive on a regular basis is damned sure not realistic. Sometimes, we must not let reality get in the way of our having fun, and telling an enjoyable story.
However... there is a line, here. A group of heroes cutting dow na god on it's home plane, (and at only 16th levle) is just not believable at all to me, no amount of suspended disbelief could make me buy that.
However, this has the caveat of the players being all given "uber godly weapons of vorpal deity slaying rules bending mind numbing madness" given to them for this express purpose, which I frown on as well.
I am forced to remember the last days of Xena, wherin she massacres the gods... If the FR gods were more like the Greek gods portrayed there, I would buy it, they were just extremely powerful beings, not truly omniscient at all, and just as petty and full of baseless pride as mortals. A faerunian deity is more, well, godlike... like a "real" god.
If one scraps the way gods are portrayed in the existing lore for one more similiar to the way they areportrayed in reek mythology, or perhaps, "Raimian" greek mythology, it might work, and be a very enjoyable campaign, of course they would need a godslaying gimmick. |
| Winterfox |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 09:48:16
Guh. Stupid, stupid me. Ignore this post. |
| Shearre |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 07:38:09
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
I don't call it "thinking outside the box" so much as "randomly pulling stilted, hackneyed deus ex machina out of the hat."
I guess, but I'd contend that there's nothing wrong with a little deus ex machina as long as it's delivered well. I mean the mistletoe in aforementioned Norse myth is deus ex machina, so is Achilles' heel or even the conveniently target sized ventilation shaft on the Death Star, that doesn't mean the respective stories they originated from were any less epic for it.
If the PCs are going to accomplish something that's beyond their level of power, there has to be some form of plot device that will allow them to do this, whether it's the stereotypical Achilles heel/one weakness, or something a little more grandiose. (For instance, maybe the PCs could find some way to destroy the god's mortal following or if you want to think really big, find some way to turn the belief of every living thing in Faerun against said god. Since, as I understand it, faith is the route of a god's power in the Realms, it makes a useful potential weakness to exploit)
|
| Winterfox |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 07:01:26
Mmm.
If this were a story, and the DM is the author, I'd be accusing the author of creating "author's darlings" characters. There's a line between "bend some rules to tell a good story" and "Let's rape the rules and warp reality. Who cares about logic? I want the characters to be rampaging, god-moding uber-munchskins, teeheehee!" I don't call it "thinking outside the box" so much as "randomly pulling stilted, hackneyed deus ex machina out of the hat." Especially this bit:
quote:
Basically what she did was help them realize the power they had with in them, not the power of the gods, but the power that all races inherently posess, the power that surpasses all boundaries of race and language. They were able to use this to break his the Cleric's shield around him. Which let them damage him normally. I even had a bit of foreshadwoing in that the NPC Human female Cleric, whose power stems from her belive in all the races of Toril, said that the power they used to defeat the Cleric might one day be used again.
...to which I can only say: what the bleeding, screaming hell? It might just be me, and I may be ignorant of the context/background of what's transpired prior in the campaign, but this doesn't make one bit of sense to me. For that matter, it also looks like an obvious plot device that transcends all established lore, laws, and so on.
It's your campaign. Do whatever you want, but if you're asking other people's opinions, this is what you'll get. Sixteenth-level characters taking on a god? Hur hur hur. Maybe if you saturate them with hallucinogens and make them think they're taking on and defeating a divine entity. |
| Shearre |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 06:43:08
I think what's needed here is a little thinking outside of the box. Sure, a non-epic party that tries to take on a god directly will get pasted, but the key word here is directly. Anyone remember the demise of Baldur from norse myth? or any of the good self-fulfilling prophecies from Greek mythology?
Perhaps there's some ancient prophecy that dictates that Bob, god of eeeeevil will be slain when the sword he used to slay the previous god of eeeeevil is reforged (said sword would of course be an uber-artefact designed specifically to slay the god of eeeeevil). Or perhaps, when taking the mantle of god of eeeeevil, Bob swore to Ao on his life that he would ensure that the Rod of Ultimate Goodness (tm) be forever sealed beneath generic death mountain #237 so that the balance would be preserved, and if the rod were ever to be recovered Bob would be unmade?
Minus my pathetic attempts at humour (hey I just got up okay ), I reckon you could spin a convincing campaign around similar sorts of ideas. The trick is to find alternative ways of ensuring a god's destruction other than by killing them in a straight fight. |
| Dracandos the Spellsage |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 05:24:44
quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
A great wyrm alone outmatches most 16th level parties, and they don't go up against gods.
excellent point |
| Gellion |
Posted - 08 Nov 2004 : 01:25:52
quote:
Originally posted by Kitira Gildragon
Alright, my two cp:
I am an avid lover of story, freeform RPGs and the like. Although in some RPGs I've played, story was lost because of stats, in D&D they are there for a reason. As was said, 8th level characters are NOT ready to take on a god.
My mentor had a group of 15th level characters who claimed they could take on a dragon- not only were they routed, but even though they fled into the night, the dragon landed on the survivors, killing them instantly. Mind you, this same dragon used its breath weapon only once, and used less than three spells in the original assault.
To take on a god at such a low level implies strong munchkinism, to my mind, a 'modifying' of stats, or something of that nature. As a mod for some rpgs, I'm quite against it, and I feel that it takes away from a story- not adding something. IMO, these PCs will get the idea that they can take on anyone so long as their RPing is "well done"- there is no need to fear death, and provides a safety net. As a DM, it is nice to see a story progress, but if there isn't the fear of dying something is lost; the characters are mortal, they should feel it and know that death and/or ruin is waiting around every corner. Besides, once you've touched the stars, how much further can you go? The characters will have ended any further chance to evolve and will not be able to adventure without feeling like other things are a challenge- they'd need to become retired.
(Unless you have them head for Ao himself...x_x Let's not even go there)
Well, the defeating of the deity would probably be the finale of said campaign.
Heh, and they have had a PC die before even though he did RP good. Got buried under tons of rubble. |
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