| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Artalis |
Posted - 06 Dec 2002 : 20:41:09
Does anyone know the proper proceedures for slaying a demipower in its own realm (ie. permanently)
I have a really powerfull character with a serious mad-on against Lolth and the Ityak-Ortheel.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 28 Oct 2007 : 23:40:52
I tend to like the Netherese idea of gods: they are just more powerful beings...and their position can be obtained. |
| IronHammer |
Posted - 28 Oct 2007 : 21:36:19
quote:
- All deities can teleport without error at will in their true form;
- All deities in their true form always win initiative when facing mortals;
- All deities in their true form can cast any spell (divine or arcane) of any level without components;
I still use these rules at the very least even though they are 2E. The stats for deitys in 3E are what we use for their avatars. In my opinion facing any deity other than a demi power is practical suicide. Even facing a demi power requires divin assistance or a godly artifact for any hope of survival. |
| Ranak |
Posted - 28 Oct 2007 : 20:55:18
I suggest casting en epic level spell that makes all the worshippers forget the name of the deity.
This method was employed in Storm of the Dead and eliminated Kiaransalee from Faerun. I would suggest doing this before the Spell Plague, however, because it sounds like high magic going away.
It is a pretty efficient and painless way of taking out any dead weight deities that you want to cull from your FR game.
Taking out Lolth does seem a little extreme, but if that's really where you want to go, its your game! |
| vertus |
Posted - 28 Oct 2007 : 16:27:52
Hi there!
I only play 2nd ed. games, so all I can offer is a 2nd ed. answer.
In my games I always use the setting rules, even when they conflict with the core rules.
In Faiths and Avatars is stated that:
- The only place that a deity can be truly destroyed is on its home plane of existence, or at the very least in the Outer Planes (barring the intervention of strange conditions such as the Time of Troubles or the use of artifacts).
- The only powers that mortals can normally hope to destroy are demipowers.
- The mortals must force the deity to meet them face-to-face (presumably you have to destroy the demipower's sole avatar first, or else you'd be fighting the personification of the demipower AND its avatar at the same time).
- By the use of some method (let's say elaborate trickery, aid of another power or some secret ritual spell) the mortals have to get the power to manifest in some special circumstance to which the power is vulnerable.
- The mortals must make sure the demipower won't simply teleport or gate away from the scene. This an be arranged through powerful magic, artifacts or divine aid.
- So, supposedly, by application of sufficient brute physical and magical force in the exact right place at the exact right time, with clever strategies, adequate preparation, a few dirty tricks, and maybe a minor artifact, it is possible for a mortal to destroy a demipower.
This seems simple enough, but you should take into account that the same book explicitly states that:
- There are no stats for the true form of deities. All listed levels and stats are for the avatar of the deity (i.e. your DM decides if it'll be at all possible to fight the true form of a deity).
- All deities can teleport without error at will in their true form;
- All deities in their true form always win initiative when facing mortals;
- All deities in their true form can cast any spell (divine or arcane) of any level without components;
- Demipowers in their true forms can sense anything that is happening within 1 mile of their true form, their avatar, any of their worshippers, any holy object or anyone that speaks their name, but must concentrate for this perception to work;
- Demipowers can do several other cool stuff and have neat powers, like acting twice in a round (including spell casting), having 70% magic resistance to mortal magic, 40% magic resistance to other demipowers magic and 20 % magic resistance to other deities greater than themselves.
All in all, it'll be a difficult if not impossible task.
Another power helping would be a huge advantage...
It all depends on the views your DM has of the relative power of deities and how involved he wants you to be with the high politics of the pantheon.
In my games I'd allow for demipower killing, but I'd insist on the artifact+divine assistance combo at the very least. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 21 Oct 2007 : 03:54:11
Back to killing a Demi-Power as a non-divine character...I just posted a question about Divine Rank Zero folks...
Would THEY need help from a deity to kill a god? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Oct 2007 : 02:39:49
It's more about designers wanting to leave these types of aspects of the Realmslore as open as possible -- giving them room to tinker with existing plot hooks, or create new ones and tie-in them into existing elements like the Dawn Cataclysm.
For example, Eric Boyd suggests that not specifically dating the time of the Dawn Cataclysm helps to maintain the concept of great deity-related events occuring beyond the perception of mortals and outside of our understanding of time. It also allows the possible re-interpretation of existing events when viewed against what we know about the Dawn Cataclysm, like the fall of Myth Drannor and the break-up of Tyche, as Wooly noted earlier.
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| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 21 Oct 2007 : 02:21:29
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Funny, for Lathander's plot, it doesn't seem to have done much good.
*shrugs* We really don't much of anything about it... All we know for certain is that one deity was destroyed, and another split in twain. For all we know, there could have been other deities -- even evil ones -- that fell during this time.
But since WotC refuses to touch the topic for some reason, we'll never know.
They refuse to touch it?
Do you mean they were asked and they just sent the question in the garbage? Or that they just didn't think it was important to touch on? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Oct 2007 : 01:37:32
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Funny, for Lathander's plot, it doesn't seem to have done much good.
*shrugs* We really don't much of anything about it... All we know for certain is that one deity was destroyed, and another split in twain. For all we know, there could have been other deities -- even evil ones -- that fell during this time.
But since WotC refuses to touch the topic for some reason, we'll never know. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 21 Oct 2007 : 01:22:15
Funny, for Lathander's plot, it doesn't seem to have done much good.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Oct 2007 : 01:11:33
quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
Also, was Lathander responsible for any deaths during the Dawn Cataclysm (or whatever it was called).
We only know of two deific deaths at that time, and only one is directly attributed to the Dawn Cataclysm. Murdane, a lesser deity of pragmatism and reason, was destroyed during the DC. Tyche split into Tymora and Beshaba during the DC, but we don't know that this was related to the DC. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 20 Oct 2007 : 02:16:41
quote:
What about the "totem" animals that the Barbarian God Uthgar killed? Were these Demi-Gods or were they simply powerful spirits? I never researched that very much.
I believe Totem Animals in D&D are just Very powerful Outsiders.
And Lathander's Dawn Cataclysm killed some gods but no one knows who they were.
quote:
Now about this High Magic that killed a God...did the wizard have help or was that just crap on a page? Seriously though, I thought Mystra declared such magic couldn't happen again...(at least to her).
In a nutshell, all the High Magic knowledge stored in some ancient Dark Elf Kirri was briefly downloaded into the minds of him and his circle (so it was more or less a bunch of ancient Dark Elf Epic Wizards casting it). It also didn't attack Kiranshlee herself but her worshipers, so its a loophole.
For me, I'm going to use that it was only possible because there was a HUGE magical concentration of energy in the area including "Voidstone" that would be almost impossible to replicate. Also, I'd have it be that Kiranshlee's low number of worshippers impacted it as well.
Overall though, I imagine every god is going to try and make sure that never happens again.
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| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 20 Oct 2007 : 01:38:02
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Finder Wyvernspur killed Moander
Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul killed the Netherese God of Mud
Karsus killed Mystrul
Kiranshlee was killed by a Dark Elf using Elven High Magic to erase her name from everyone of her worshipers' minds at once.
The Crescent Blade killed Selveratem
I tend to think that CB must be an avatar of Elistraea or something.
This doesn't count the ToT deicides.
What about the "totem" animals that the Barbarian God Uthgar killed? Were these Demi-Gods or were they simply powerful spirits? I never researched that very much.
Also, was Lathander responsible for any deaths during the Dawn Cataclysm (or whatever it was called).
Now about this High Magic that killed a God...did the wizard have help or was that just crap on a page? Seriously though, I thought Mystra declared such magic couldn't happen again...(at least to her).
If gods could be killed by the simple casting of a dang spell, well, I'm thinking any and all Gods wouldn't ever want THAT to happen again...and so it wouldn't.
Oh wait...that darned Karsus!
So how did this wizard get one through? |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 20 Oct 2007 : 01:20:35
Finder Wyvernspur killed Moander
Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul killed the Netherese God of Mud
Karsus killed Mystrul
Kiranshlee was killed by a Dark Elf using Elven High Magic to erase her name from everyone of her worshipers' minds at once.
The Crescent Blade killed Selveratem
I tend to think that CB must be an avatar of Elistraea or something.
This doesn't count the ToT deicides.
quote:
Just for the sake of Canon...which trumps? I mean, does the Core Rulebook trump setting material (and I don't remember reading that this couldn't be done in the Realms; but the opposite in fact) or does a setting have the ability to change whatever the Core Rules say?
3 answers
1. Core Rulebook information triumphs setting fluff.
2. Setting crunch triumphs over Core rulerbook crunch.
3. Ask your DM which is accurate
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| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 20 Oct 2007 : 01:17:09
quote:
Originally posted by Kheris
dalor_darden,
I think this is a case of generic 3.X rules conflicting with Realmslore.
Just for the sake of Canon...which trumps? I mean, does the Core Rulebook trump setting material (and I don't remember reading that this couldn't be done in the Realms; but the opposite in fact) or does a setting have the ability to change whatever the Core Rules say?
I am hoping that the Setting takes the upper hand, otherwise it would just be plain silly!
As far as taking on a Deity though...Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul planned to kill a god...and I'm not recalling that they had any help other than what they had made. If they did, someone please add to my memory this fact! 
What other deicides have occurred in the realms?
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| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 19 Oct 2007 : 19:22:08
quote:
Avatars. While it may be permitted somewhere in D&D lore that demipowers can be slain by mortals, good luck with that. It'll never happen in my games. Any divine being with the intelligence and capability of summoning up avatars, planetars, solars, devas, and similar defenders isn't just going to be caught by surprise by a mortal. If it were that easy, there'd be a lot more dead gods. I think it cheapens the whole idea of ascending, and basically turns deities into super high level monsters. The permanent killing of a deity is on the order of trying to kill air. Try as you might, you're really just wasting your time.
Counterpoint, it may be the case in your Realms, but it's not the case in HIS Realms. Hell, it's not the case in the canon Realms depending on the books. Everyone treats the divine as something different. For a lot of people, "Gods" in Forgotten Realms are not divine at all but pretenders to that power because they abuse it so greatly. Otherwise, why would people be trying to kill them?
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| Varl |
Posted - 19 Oct 2007 : 16:16:03
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Indeed it would. But that's still a very tall order. Most deities will have thousands of worshippers, if not more... And once someone starts killing off large numbers of those worshippers, you can bet the deity is going to start sending high-level champions and divine servants to stop the offender.
Avatars. While it may be permitted somewhere in D&D lore that demipowers can be slain by mortals, good luck with that. It'll never happen in my games. Any divine being with the intelligence and capability of summoning up avatars, planetars, solars, devas, and similar defenders isn't just going to be caught by surprise by a mortal. If it were that easy, there'd be a lot more dead gods. I think it cheapens the whole idea of ascending, and basically turns deities into super high level monsters. The permanent killing of a deity is on the order of trying to kill air. Try as you might, you're really just wasting your time. 
Good luck though, Artalis. I hope you find those procedures. |
| Kheris |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 17:34:43
dalor_darden,
I think this is a case of generic 3.X rules conflicting with Realmslore.
I don't remember where I read it, but I am rather certain that in the Realms a mortal can't just shiv a deity and take their stuff. You actually do need some sort of divine assistance.
My apologies if the following is wrong, I'm doing this from memory, and don't have any citations to reference it...
However, the loophole to this may be the acquisition of a Divine Spark, which - IIRC - can be gotten from slaying an Avatar. Thereby making the character "divine enough" to do the deed without outside aid.
But again, I may be hallucinating that, and welcome any and all corrections! 
Edited for a typo |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 17:12:33
I thought in 3.x all you needed was an artifact to help you slay a deity? Something of godly origin to defeat the god's ability to not die in effect.
I guess you would need an artifact of a god of equal or higher rank than the god you are trying to kill maybe?
I'm interested in what people have to say on this topic, because I have a vested interest in how to kill a deity as well...for story purpose and the conclusion of a decade long campaign I've been running. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 16:57:56
Yes, but it's very very funny.
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| Kheris |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 16:19:44
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
If you want to slay Lolth, here's the following things you need to do.
* Get the backing of Elistrae or one of the Seldarine (like Shelvaresh)
* Get an artifact like the Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings or other awesomely powerful device.
* either attack her when she's weakest (like during the Silence or Troubles)
Or
* Help raise an army to start destroying her followers. Maybe get an army of Devas to invade the Demonweb pits.
But yeah, Queen of the Demonweb Pits is pretty inaccurate now but the basic gist behind it and Vault of the Drow should allow you to put an end to the Spider Queen.
Charles, is it wrong that I picture the Scepter being hidden in a wrapped, spring-loaded giftbox?
Because I am, and that image is making me think of a commercial for Raid.
*Lloth slinks down to a corner of her web, shaking from the addition of a present*
"Don't open until Midwinter? From my secret admirer?" *shaking the gift, looking around*
"Pfft... Like anyone will know..." *Lloth opens the gift*
*sproing* "RAAAAIIID?!" *boom*
Perhaps I need more coffee... Or sleep. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 16:09:31
If you want to slay Lolth, here's the following things you need to do.
* Get the backing of Elistrae or one of the Seldarine (like Shelvaresh)
* Get an artifact like the Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings or other awesomely powerful device.
* either attack her when she's weakest (like during the Silence or Troubles)
Or
* Help raise an army to start destroying her followers. Maybe get an army of Devas to invade the Demonweb pits.
But yeah, Queen of the Demonweb Pits is pretty inaccurate now but the basic gist behind it and Vault of the Drow should allow you to put an end to the Spider Queen.
|
| Kheris |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 16:04:35
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
They don't really need any divine assistance, FInder Wyvernspur didn't really have any divine assistance when he destroyed Moander. And i believe Moander was more than a demi power.
He had Tymora's assistance. It is speculated that it was her revenge for the corruption of Tyche.
And it has been explicitly stated, more than once, that divine assistance is required for a mortal to slay a deity.
Well then, you need a deity willing to help... Perhaps the Seldarine would have someone willing to lend a hand?
You just need that and the Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings hidden in a candy gram...  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 15:54:54
quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
They don't really need any divine assistance, FInder Wyvernspur didn't really have any divine assistance when he destroyed Moander. And i believe Moander was more than a demi power.
He had Tymora's assistance. It is speculated that it was her revenge for the corruption of Tyche.
And it has been explicitly stated, more than once, that divine assistance is required for a mortal to slay a deity. |
| Chataro |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 15:18:33
They don't really need any divine assistance, FInder Wyvernspur didn't really have any divine assistance when he destroyed Moander. And i believe Moander was more than a demi power. |
| darkflame millithor |
Posted - 11 May 2006 : 18:14:44
heh Artalis, have you slain the Dark Empress of spiders yet? DId you have something to do with her
going silent(black lighten crackles at finger-tips,halo of flames flares at my brow.)
That was being greedy,you shouldn't have hurt her so bad. Some of us wanted to get their shots in too! Oh well I quess I'll have to go after Kiaransalee! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 May 2006 : 17:17:40
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Wilson
I'm pretty sure that in the Realms, only a deity can slay another deity. So, your first action should be attaining a demi-god status.
Nope, mortals can slay deities, but they need divine assistance. |
| Mr. Wilson |
Posted - 11 May 2006 : 11:28:54
I'm pretty sure that in the Realms, only a deity can slay another deity. So, your first action should be attaining a demi-god status. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 11 May 2006 : 02:32:32
Indeed.
Amaunator died of neglect -- which tells you that the power of worshipper faith was just as integral then as it is post-ToT. We know that people simply stopped worshipping him to the point where he could no longer maintain his "Keep of the Sun" with his divine energy and thus was forced to recede into the Astral.
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| Kuje |
Posted - 11 May 2006 : 02:15:16
I'll mention it again. That ruling had to exist before the ToT's, or Amaunator would never had died since we know that he died due to a lack of worship. :) Silly TSR and their retcons. |
| Shadovar |
Posted - 11 May 2006 : 02:09:25
quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
Would it help first if u try to destroy the god's worshippers and temples?
Yes, it is possible for deities would slowly perish from lack of followers according to Ao's ruling, but it would be a long-term campaign to eliminate the deities by destroying their worshippers and temples, best to influence the worshippers by seeding heretics, creating false beliefs and conflicting ideals and try to make them become faithless in their patron, this is a better way to rob the deity of worshippers than killing them-killing would energize the mob into fighting like fanatics. Desecrating temples are good but temples without followers and priests are almost useless. |
