| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Karesch |
Posted - 05 Jul 2004 : 07:13:58
Ok, I'm hoping this subject doesn't get booted off, and I'm not sure if anyone has an actual topic such as this one, but I'm curious to peoples opinions, and who knows, perhaps someone could guide someone of importance to this thread to see what others think.
I have read the 3E FRCS cover to cover. literally. As well as most of the PGttFR (3.5 update to FRCS) and the FRCS was something I really appreciated. the update.. I'll bite my tounge in saying that I wish I could get a refund. The FRCS is nice for it's broad amount of knowledge, and is great for getting someone started in FR if they want to be relatively imaginative in EVERYTHING about FR other than who leads what city, the cities population and the "country's" general attitude towards it's neighbors. However. And this is where I take my soap-box stand. I think it's about time that WotC puts a group of it's designers onto a major project. FR still seems to be the most popular Campaign Setting. In my experience, probably better than half of the people playing ANY other campaign setting, also play FR. On-top of which, there's MANY who play FR solely. So I think it's about time, WotC decides to dedicate some time to us. I've heard many a person rant over the past couple years that they'd die to see a tome of pure "fluff". Something that consolidates detailed information on cities, including maps. Detailed information on Organizations, including internal power structures/hiearchies, tactical information (for groups like Purple Dragon Knights, Soldiers of Cormyr, Zhentarim, etc) including typical tactics, formation sizes, typical weapon/armour information, etc. More detailed maps of Faerun and FR in general. City information including stuff about shops, taverns, inns, etc. because this is all information that as a player/DM it's nice to know, because players are eventually going to end up in these places, and it would be nice for a DM to know what the player will encounter in such places. I would honestly be willing to cough up $100US for a tome of fluff that was 700 pages + long, well bound, and included at least 100 pages of cartography. Provided that it included absolutely NO NEW FEATS, SKILLS, SPELLS, SPECIAL ABILITIES, SPECIAL ATTACKS, ETC, ETC, ETC We have enough of these. Every book released is filled with these. Listing the feats, skills, etc, of people within the book, so as to give a detailed description of them, thats fine by me. But we can easily reference our other books to find out what those mean. I want a book of FLUFF. Nothing but maps, people, organizations, cities, city history, area history, and all the other pretty stuff that makes a Campaign world REAL. I implore you all, add your comments, opinions, wisdom, interest in such a book, and then someone, anyone, tell people of WotC to come see this thread, see what their faithful are crying out for, and then make it happen.
*steps down from his soap box*
Ahem.. Thank you all. I hope you keep this thread alive and burning up with replies. Maybe someone at WotC will get the idea that they WILL make money if they release such a volume, and we'll see it happen.... Goodnight. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Brother Ezra |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 15:20:36
quote:
Originally posted by brjr2001
i didn't like the d20 series it just wasn't good at all
What "d20 series" are you referring to? D20 is a role-playing system that exists under an open game license, allowing WotC competitors to use the system to create supplemental game material for the system. Anything involving D&D 3rd edition is D20 material. Are you saying you don't like the d20 system? Does your hat of d02 know no limit |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 07:15:17
quote:
Originally posted by zemd
In fact i begin to be tired of the d20 material (apart of som books like the midnight CS)
I've only just recently come across this setting myself, I must say that I agree with you. The entire core setting book was a delight to read. There was very little crunch (and then, only when necessarily needed), and most of the tome was taken up by Midnight related fluff. I was also intrigued to hear that there was even more fluff material that needed to be cut from the core book to keep it at 300+ pages.
If this trend continues with the coming MDN supplements, I'll certainly be adding this set of tomes to my gaming library.
|
| brjr2001 |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 07:05:33
i didn't like the d20 series it just wasn't good at all |
| Karesch |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 07:02:55
I think, as SB noted earlier, that it would take a few years at least, before WotC would even consider dropping FR, however, I have to say that, your comment on there being "just enough fluff to satisfy those of us who like fluff" is far from true. there has been terribly little fluff included in anything really. As to the thought of another D20 publisher picking up the license if WotC drops it, and brings back the fluff, I think we could only pray that would happen, but would be suicidal to hold our breath on the matter. But alas, we can only pray that some miracle will happen, like Mr. Greenwood taking a gun-ho attempt at writing a sourcebook full of lore, and trying to get Wizards to publish it. which, while an incredible thought, and what would be a truely wonderous event, is doubtful to happen, not that I'm doubting Mr Greenwood by any measure, but more that I doubt WotC would listen and put forth the needed effort to have it published... But again, thats just my meager opinion..
K |
| Brother Ezra |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 03:33:57
I tend to agree that WotC is going to market whatever style of product sells. If it's crunch, then their products will feature "10% more crunchiness", and they will promulgate this through the continuing practice of ladening most of their products with new spells, skills, prestige classes, races, classes and special abilities. Just enough lore will be tossed in to satisfy the non-crunch fan.
I wonder, if the Eberron campaign setting is as successful as WotC hopes, will FR be dropped as a WotC setting, and would this be necessarily bad? Would a successful d20 publisher like AEG, Necromancer or Goodman Games be able to pick up the license and balance out the needs of the roll player and the role player? How was the Ravenloft line affected when WotC dropped it? Did the quality improve? Was there a greater attention to atmosphere and lore? |
| Karesch |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 00:33:15
That in itself is understandable, the way companies approach it, but then again, those other companies that spend some resources on REAL market research, IE: polling more than 100 consumers, often as not have products that can't be kept on the shelves. So where the tried tested and true method of just following current sales, keeps fairly steady product movement, those companies that try to find out from their consumers what's in demand, often find higher sales on a regular basis. Oh well, who am I but a fan, and only one of millions I imagine, so my opinion has little value..
K |
| The Wanderer |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 19:09:09
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
One thing to recall, people who post here and at other messageboards are just a tiny fraction of FR consumers that come online. Moreover, the online consumers are just a tiny fraction of overall FR consumers. Thus, I'm not sure how strong a response anyone organizing an online effort could expect from Hasbro.
Aye, I've heard this before from other companies as well. They say that we are the vocal minority. Companies tend to trust their sales more than their community boards, which is too bad since they miss out on some good suggestions. I guess it is the easiest way to get a feel for any product, since otherwise they would have to perform a survey which itself would consume resources they would rather see spent elsewhere. |
| Karesch |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 18:52:13
Unfortunately thats very true SB, it was a thought, that perhaps would invoke a response of some sort however.
K |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 18:38:47
quote:
Originally posted by Karesch
aye, I understand what your saying, and in all honesty I'd hate to stop buying FR products too, for fear that if the sales drop too much in FR products, they'll drop the line, and focus on there Eberron line.
I understand those fears. However, nothing has been revealed to indicate that WOTC is considering this or would. However, yes, Eberron is the product that has been pushed and will be pushed the most in the near future. Still, I have no idea if this will affect Realms purchases or how we could even find out if such an event took place.
quote:
which would be disaterous.
No argument there. But, I don't think it's a change that will take place in the near future. Even if WOTC were considering downsizing or eliminating the FR product line, I think they'd want to see several years of Eberron or some other gaming world displaying strong sales before they made such a move.
quote:
However, i was merely thinking, that if we organized an emailing campaign, to fill Hasboro up to the earlobes in requests for more fluff. they might just pay attention, and some executive lackey will bring printouts of a few thousand emails requesting more fluff to a board meeting and show them that indeed, people want more fluff. That we've had enough crunch.
One thing to recall, people who post here and at other messageboards are just a tiny fraction of FR consumers that come online. Moreover, the online consumers are just a tiny fraction of overall FR consumers. Thus, I'm not sure how strong a response anyone organizing an online effort could expect from Hasbro. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 18:21:13
quote:
Originally posted by Karesch
I'll have to look into getting that shortly aswell. But I think the FR community needs to shout out loud and clear that we want more fluff in our books again. That the crunchiness of the more recent books is beginning to chip and break our teeth and we need fluff so we can gum it now that our teeth are all broken up. Maybe instead of bugging wizards of the coast anymore though, because they don't seem to want to hear what us players and DM's are saying, we should start emailing Hasboro's customer service or something, and telling them we want more fluff in our FR products. and perhaps hasboro will get sick of hearing from us, and put the word down to WotC that they need to start doing more fluff. Hasboro is in business to make money. lots of money. So perhaps if we can convince them that they'll make lots more money if they give us more fluff, they'll decide that they had an idea, they should put more fluff into the books, because someone recently overheard alot of players talking about wanting more fluff. so yeah, they think it'd be a good idea to put more fluff in. You know how it is.
K
WotC has pretty much stated that they don't care what we want, only what we buy... So bugging them is not really an option. However, your idea of going straight to Hasbro has merit... |
| Karesch |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 17:51:15
aye, I understand what your saying, and in all honesty I'd hate to stop buying FR products too, for fear that if the sales drop too much in FR products, they'll drop the line, and focus on there Eberron line. which would be disaterous. However, i was merely thinking, that if we organized an emailing campaign, to fill Hasboro up to the earlobes in requests for more fluff. they might just pay attention, and some executive lackey will bring printouts of a few thousand emails requesting more fluff to a board meeting and show them that indeed, people want more fluff. That we've had enough crunch.
K |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 17:41:11
quote:
Originally posted by Karesch
Maybe instead of bugging wizards of the coast anymore though, because they don't seem to want to hear what us players and DM's are saying, we should start emailing Hasboro's customer service or something, and telling them we want more fluff in our FR products. and perhaps hasboro will get sick of hearing from us, and put the word down to WotC that they need to start doing more fluff. Hasboro is in business to make money. lots of money. So perhaps if we can convince them that they'll make lots more money if they give us more fluff,
K
Only problem is that, unless recently it has changed, Richard Baker stated in a reply on the old WOTC board that a large number of consumers purchasing FR products are merely looting the tomes for the crunch. Thus, can you blame them for designing products with a great deal of crunch? They want these consumers to continue buying FR products. Plus, I've seen no large indication from hardcore FR fans that they plan to stop purchasing FR items even if this trend continues. Thus, right now WOTC has the best of both worlds if they continue designing products with an emphasis on crunch. |
| Karesch |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 17:30:27
I'll have to look into getting that shortly aswell. But I think the FR community needs to shout out loud and clear that we want more fluff in our books again. That the crunchiness of the more recent books is beginning to chip and break our teeth and we need fluff so we can gum it now that our teeth are all broken up. Maybe instead of bugging wizards of the coast anymore though, because they don't seem to want to hear what us players and DM's are saying, we should start emailing Hasboro's customer service or something, and telling them we want more fluff in our FR products. and perhaps hasboro will get sick of hearing from us, and put the word down to WotC that they need to start doing more fluff. Hasboro is in business to make money. lots of money. So perhaps if we can convince them that they'll make lots more money if they give us more fluff, they'll decide that they had an idea, they should put more fluff into the books, because someone recently overheard alot of players talking about wanting more fluff. so yeah, they think it'd be a good idea to put more fluff in. You know how it is.
K |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 17:09:58
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
Increasing the fluff to crunch ratio. Sorry, was half asleep when I threw that up there. 
I would tend to agree. However, and I've only read through the first chapter and skimmed the rest, the newly released Serpent Kingdoms appears to have a bit more fluff than I expected or have seen in past FR offerings.
And hearing that makes me move this one up to the top of the "to get" list.  |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 16:36:29
quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
Increasing the fluff to crunch ratio. Sorry, was half asleep when I threw that up there.
I would tend to agree. However, and I've only read through the first chapter and skimmed the rest, the newly released Serpent Kingdoms appears to have a bit more fluff than I expected or have seen in past FR offerings. |
| Mystery_Man |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 16:15:24
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
This has been brought up to people like Rich Baker, who after reading their answers the impression is that its never going to happen.
What exactly is never going to happen?
Increasing the fluff to crunch ratio. Sorry, was half asleep when I threw that up there. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 16:09:38
quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
This has been brought up to people like Rich Baker, who after reading their answers the impression is that its never going to happen.
What exactly is never going to happen? |
| Mystery_Man |
Posted - 14 Jul 2004 : 13:33:50
I have yet to completely read thru a prestige class. They just bore me silly. I soak up lore like a sponge.
This has been brought up to people like Rich Baker, who after reading their answers the impression is that its never going to happen. |
| Karesch |
Posted - 11 Jul 2004 : 17:52:51
Wow, seems this thread was somewhat busy over the weekend. I was away for a few days taking some time outta the city. Glad to see so many people are interested in such a tome. Hopefully more of you will add your opinions and we can eventually get the attention of someone who might be able to right this injustice of the realms 
K |
| Lady Kazandra |
Posted - 09 Jul 2004 : 13:53:35
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Actually, I think it acceptable to mention the Van Richten's Guides here... Sure, they were intended for another game world, but there is a wealth of material in those books that can easily be ported over to the Realms. Though I've not done it yet, I've been fiddling with an idea for a vampire NPC, and I fully intended to give him some slight "tweaks" from the material in Van Richten's Guide to Vampires.
Those books have much, much material that can be used in any setting to really throw your PCs for a loop.
I can agree with that. I know that I like to use Van Richten's Guide to Fiends far more regularly in the Sage's FR games, than I'm likely to use it elsewhere. Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead has also been just as important for my Realms games, especially when visiting the typical dungeon that is infested with zombies and ghouls...
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| tauster |
Posted - 09 Jul 2004 : 11:23:31
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Though I've not done it yet, I've been fiddling with an idea for a vampire NPC, and I fully intended to give him some slight "tweaks" from the material in Van Richten's Guide to Vampires.
Those books have much, much material that can be used in any setting to really throw your PCs for a loop.
i strongly recommend reading the "vampire chronicles" by anne rice.
youŽll find yourself "looking through the eyes of the monster(s)" - an excersice i found very useful for roleplaying vampires, becoming acquainted with their views, their style of living (pardon the pun, couldnŽt resist), the way they see the mortal world or percieve good and evil. furthermore, her vampires are in some aspects different from the regular "adnd- suckers", so your players are in for some nice surprises... 
iŽve read and can recommend
- the vampire armand
- blood and gold (about marius)
- pandora
- the vampire lestat (great description of how vampires deal among each other!)
you can get them cheap at ebay. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jul 2004 : 05:48:17
quote:
Originally posted by Anubis
I am glad to see that I am not the only one who feels this way about "fluff" products.
I've been an avid player of AD&D for almost sixteen years now and I still love the game as much as the first time I played. One of my favorite things was always delving deep into the mythology of the world that I was playing in. I used to sit and read the books cover-to-cover multiple times. Yet I see an increasing trend where books with this kind of information are starting to dwindle (if they are not altogether gone).
One good example of these kinds of books(and I apologize for bringing in another world) were the Van'Ritchen's Guides in the Raveloft universe.
I am hoping that WotC are just going through a particular phase in which they are hevay with the "crunch". I would definetly be someone willing to pay for a nice thick book of Faerunian lore.
P.S. Nice place you guys hyave here :)
Welcome, Anubis!
Actually, I think it acceptable to mention the Van Richten's Guides here... Sure, they were intended for another game world, but there is a wealth of material in those books that can easily be ported over to the Realms. Though I've not done it yet, I've been fiddling with an idea for a vampire NPC, and I fully intended to give him some slight "tweaks" from the material in Van Richten's Guide to Vampires.
Those books have much, much material that can be used in any setting to really throw your PCs for a loop. |
| The Wanderer |
Posted - 09 Jul 2004 : 04:13:26
I am glad to see that I am not the only one who feels this way about "fluff" products.
I've been an avid player of AD&D for almost sixteen years now and I still love the game as much as the first time I played. One of my favorite things was always delving deep into the mythology of the world that I was playing in. I used to sit and read the books cover-to-cover multiple times. Yet I see an increasing trend where books with this kind of information are starting to dwindle (if they are not altogether gone).
One good example of these kinds of books(and I apologize for bringing in another world) were the Van'Ritchen's Guides in the Raveloft universe.
I am hoping that WotC is just going through a particular phase in which they are heavy with the "crunch". I would definetly be someone willing to pay for a nice thick book of Faerunian lore.
P.S. Nice place you guys hyave here :) |
| Karesch |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 19:34:15
SB - You make a valid point in why your not buying much. Personally I've been using Ebay to buy up alot of the older books just for their lore value and been reading them continuously. I've actually had to take a short break and read a few novels the past couple weeks, because my mind was starting to stall trying to absorb as much as i was reading. However, and I agree with most all of ye, the current trend with "crunchy books" is leaving one feeling ripped off and not having gotten your money's worth. However, if they came out with a book chock full of lore I'd be out to the FLGS to pick up a copy in the first week, Just because I'd want to help bolster those demographics of the "bean counters" in hopes that they'd get high enough sales of said book to encourage them to make another.
K |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 17:51:51
quote:
Originally posted by zemd
In fact i begin to be tired of the d20 material (apart of som books like the midnight CS)
A good point to make zemd. This leaning towards crunch books is not simply a WOTC trend. D20 Companies are also part of this trend which is a reason why I haven't purchased many D20 products recently. |
| zemd |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 17:23:51
As i said on an other post i'm completlty sick of what wotc is releasing at the moment, the PGtF is just a pity and i won't buy the next one i think. In fact i begin to be tired of the d20 material (apart of som books like the midnight CS) |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 15:39:08
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'll echo the sentiments of Brother E and SB.
Part of the reason I've been turning to eBay is the simple belief that the new stuff isn't worth the asking price, and a lot of that is due to the lack of flavor.
With myself, it's taken on an additional factor now. I still am buying FR products, but I'm not necessarily keeping them. Underdark for example was sent back and my money refunded. For future purchases, I will probably keep this option available. Although I am really excited about some of the authors involved in future FR products, I know they are not the sole persons involved in the creation process. Thus, I am proceeding, but with greater caution than I ever have before in my WOTC purchasing history. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 15:20:15
I'll echo the sentiments of Brother E and SB.
Part of the reason I've been turning to eBay is the simple belief that the new stuff isn't worth the asking price, and a lot of that is due to the lack of flavor.
Years back, in the days of 2E, I had no qualms about dropping $20 or $25 on the latest boxed set, even if I had no particular interest in the region covered. I was earning less money, but I felt I was getting my money's worth from what I was buying.
Now I'm earning a bit more money, but the products they're churning out just aren't worth as much to me. So rather than spend full price and feel I got ripped off, I try to spend as little as possible to get the books.
If they were to return to the days of publishing lore, I'd discontinue that practice. If they published some new Volo's Guides, you'd not want to get between me and those books at my FLGS. I'd run you down in my rush to buy them. 
My personal fave Realms products remain the ones that were full of lore and little rules: the Volo's Guides (the first one is the reason I now love Waterdeep), the three deity books (which were enough to make me play a cleric for the first time), and Cloak & Dagger (the Harper Schism, the Manshoon Wars -- pure gold). If WotC was to get back to doing that kinda stuff, they'd get my money again. Until then, eBay will. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 14:51:24
quote:
Originally posted by Karesch
Ok, so I hear now that a few of you are happy to keep your wallet's in your pockets with the current trends, however I pose this. If WotC were to infact publish a tome of pure Lore, would you be willing to line their pockets for it? Would that be something that to you, would be worth re-kindling your kindness to Wizards and letting them make the money instead of someone off Ebay or some such other source? I'm not one to insult Ebay, as I've bought much off of it, however I know personally I'd go out of my way to purchase a tome of pure Lore from Wizards, just to show them that people are interested in a book like that, and I'd urge anyone who enjoys FR to do likewise in hopes of rekindling Wizards publishing more such tomes. What say ye to that?
K
Kindness begins to make the relationship between WOTC and myself as some type of friendship. It's not. They are a business, I am a consumer. If they want my business, I look for a product that interests me. A book with lore/fluff would have a much greater chance of doing that than past products. If they do not, I am free to take my money elsewhere. |
| Lysander |
Posted - 06 Jul 2004 : 12:54:30
quote:
Originally posted by Karesch
Ok, so I hear now that a few of you are happy to keep your wallet's in your pockets with the current trends, however I pose this. If WotC were to infact publish a tome of pure Lore, would you be willing to line their pockets for it? Would that be something that to you, would be worth re-kindling your kindness to Wizards and letting them make the money instead of someone off Ebay or some such other source? I'm not one to insult Ebay, as I've bought much off of it, however I know personally I'd go out of my way to purchase a tome of pure Lore from Wizards, just to show them that people are interested in a book like that, and I'd urge anyone who enjoys FR to do likewise in hopes of rekindling Wizards publishing more such tomes. What say ye to that?
K
In a heartbeat (would make reengineering back to 2.5E much easier, too  )!
The reverse of that is why I haven't bought the Player's Guide to Faerun - from all I've read, including here, there is very little in that book that isn't in the FRCS, other than the .5 edition tweak. As others have said, I'll wait a year or so, and see if the price has hit rock bottom on eBay.
Lysander
(Preview is my friend..... preview is my friend...) |
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