| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Senbar Flay |
Posted - 26 May 2004 : 20:26:56
I have looked into the evil nature of the drow but have been wondering if it is possible to redeem themselves. For theoreticaly they were a good race but the leaders jealoues. And so allied with Lloth drawing the rest of the people in shadow. And when they decended into the earth they bred a cruel society but it seems some have been able to turn from their evil ways like Drizzt. I think the only reason they are evil is the children are brough up in a evil society. Opinion? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 23:27:40
Obviously, there are/were some who would. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 17:14:07
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
From what Brian said (somewhere on these forums or the WotC forums, I do not remember which), the Dark Elves of the surface from before the Descent did not have black skin, but instead had very dark green skin. I do not remember him actually stating that they were Green Elves per se. And then when they Descended, and they changed from Dark Elves to Drow, their skin changed from very dark green to black. Anyways, I think I will light up the Brian Signal to see if he can come clear up these muddy waters for us.
Brian Signal
On topic, I do not think that Drow/Dark Elves can be redeemed as a race. I think individual ones like Drizzt or the followers of Eilistraee can though.
Rest assured, I know all Ilythiiri and FR drow lore and TGHotR was the first book to directly connect the Ilythiiri to the "green elves". Or rather: made them "green elves". If Brian has said that they had actually been dark green rather than dusky skinned, as all sourcebooks before did, he re-wrote canon. No problem on my part, even though I can't understand the point.
While I am at it*, much of the lore of those days in TGHotR includes straight copy & paste from Cormanthyr (which was written in AD&D times) and instead of placing the Ilythiiri in the "green" elves' corner, editing should have replaced the "green" with the now more appropriate FR elven subraces, wilds, woods, dark, suns, stars and the like.
*Low-key ranting.
True.
I also agree with the last post about the sword One Thousand Broken Dreams. Maybe it meant 'you have a chance to redeem' the drow who wants it? But then, what drow would want it?
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| ranger_of_the_unicorn_run |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 04:05:47
It really confused me when I was reading the description of the sword One Thousand Broken Dreams because it said that the moonstones resulting from its shattering could be used to redeem drow as an atonement. I don't fully understand how that would be implemented because you can't force an evil drow to become good, there wouldn't exactly be swarms of drow looking for atonement, and I don't see how atonement is absolutely necessary to become good. I've never heard of it being mandatory for an evil character slowly converting to good to have an atonement spell cast on them. I could see the roleplaying value, but ultimately it doesn't seem like a highly useful property. |
| Celanta |
Posted - 02 Feb 2009 : 19:57:40
I think that the "Redemption" was in reference to the Balor Wendonai who seduced the coronal of Ilythiir at the command of Lolth and corrupted dark elves of Ilythiir. The redemption was not so much to redeem them all their evil acts, but as a counter to seperate those that were tainted and those who were not as ALL the dark elves were condemned despite being Ilythiiri or Miyeritaari at the time of the "Decent of the Drow". Dark elves have dark brown skin, as opposed to the ebony skin that drow have. They also have black hair instead of white and no darkvision. Dark elves are also not tainted with Wendonai's blood. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 21 Nov 2007 : 09:45:28
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
From what Brian said (somewhere on these forums or the WotC forums, I do not remember which), the Dark Elves of the surface from before the Descent did not have black skin, but instead had very dark green skin. I do not remember him actually stating that they were Green Elves per se. And then when they Descended, and they changed from Dark Elves to Drow, their skin changed from very dark green to black. Anyways, I think I will light up the Brian Signal to see if he can come clear up these muddy waters for us.
Brian Signal
On topic, I do not think that Drow/Dark Elves can be redeemed as a race. I think individual ones like Drizzt or the followers of Eilistraee can though.
Rest assured, I know all Ilythiiri and FR drow lore and TGHotR was the first book to directly connect the Ilythiiri to the "green elves". Or rather: made them "green elves". If Brian has said that they had actually been dark green rather than dusky skinned, as all sourcebooks before did, he re-wrote canon. No problem on my part, even though I can't understand the point.
While I am at it*, much of the lore of those days in TGHotR includes straight copy & paste from Cormanthyr (which was written in AD&D times) and instead of placing the Ilythiiri in the "green" elves' corner, editing should have replaced the "green" with the now more appropriate FR elven subraces, wilds, woods, dark, suns, stars and the like.
*Low-key ranting. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 21 Nov 2007 : 02:01:12
quote:
Originally posted by Herkles
that does beg the question though, what happened to the non dark elves who lived in illythiir? did they become drow as did the dark elves of illythiir or did they stay the same?
Everything I've ever read on the subject says only "dark elves" became drow. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 21 Nov 2007 : 02:00:31
quote:
Originally posted by Akeri Rualuavain
I have to admit that i'm a little comfuse by all this. The only reference I read about the curse was in the evermeet book... The drow where still on surface and if my memory is corect, the wierd King was trying to mixt Avariel with dark elf...
Well, for better or for worse, there's been a lot of new lore added since that novel, especially in recent years. |
| Herkles |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 22:43:18
that does beg the question though, what happened to the non dark elves who lived in illythiir? did they become drow as did the dark elves of illythiir or did they stay the same? |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 22:31:59
Miyeritar in the past as best I recall was a mix of green and dark and Illythiir was dark. Now in fairness it is likely gold, silver, etc. did live in both realms just not a large percent. I seem to recall that there were some Eilistraee followers living in Illythiir.
As for WotC redeeming, that of course is unlikely. They would need another great force of Evil to replace. This of course does not prevent a home game from having something like redemption occuring, though it would take thousands of years if could be done at all.
|
| Akeri Rualuavain |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 22:26:41
quote:
Originally posted by Herkles
if i remember correctly both Miyeritar and illythiir were dark and green elven kingdoms, the question i wonder though is, if illythiir was a mix between green and dark elves, why were only the dark elves cursed to become drow and not the green elves?
I do believe drow can be redeemed, but i doubt it would happen. drow make money and having the evil drow there will keep making money. I do think though that the church of eilistraee will continue to grow, but lolth would still rule the drow.
I have to admit that i'm a little comfuse by all this. The only reference I read about the curse was in the evermeet book... The drow where still on surface and if my memory is corect, the wierd King was trying to mixt Avariel with dark elf... |
| Herkles |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 22:08:01
if i remember correctly both Miyeritar and illythiir were dark and green elven kingdoms, the question i wonder though is, if illythiir was a mix between green and dark elves, why were only the dark elves cursed to become drow and not the green elves?
I do believe drow can be redeemed, but i doubt it would happen. drow make money and having the evil drow there will keep making money. I do think though that the church of eilistraee will continue to grow, but lolth would still rule the drow.
|
| Hawkins |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 17:57:01
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Food for thought, most of the dark elvs that survived the the 2nd Crown War becamed corupted which is what lead to the Desent.
It took Lolth and other deities many years in order to do this.
Thus it clearly should be possible that most of the Drow could be redeemed as well, or at least most of them. However it would take many years *wink*
Lol. 'Tis far easier to corrupt than to redeem. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 17:33:53
Food for thought, most of the dark elvs that survived the the 2nd Crown War becamed corupted which is what lead to the Desent.
It took Lolth and other deities many years in order to do this.
Thus it clearly should be possible that most of the Drow could be redeemed as well, or at least most of them. However it would take many years *wink* |
| Hawkins |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 17:10:37
From what Brian said (somewhere on these forums or the WotC forums, I do not remember which), the Dark Elves of the surface from before the Descent did not have black skin, but instead had very dark green skin. I do not remember him actually stating that they were Green Elves per se. And then when they Descended, and they changed from Dark Elves to Drow, their skin changed from very dark green to black. Anyways, I think I will light up the Brian Signal to see if he can come clear up these muddy waters for us.
Brian Signal
On topic, I do not think that Drow/Dark Elves can be redeemed as a race. I think individual ones like Drizzt or the followers of Eilistraee can though. |
| Aravine |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 16:56:30
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Can anyone try to explain to me why the drow as a race can be redeemed? IMHO, if you want to redeem someone, you do that for this individual's "failings" (in your eyes, of course). Not for the failings that led an IMHO different race (surface dark elves such as the Ilythiiri) to its doom. What the drow did afterwards, taking revenge on the surfacers and being mean and evil to anything that prowls the tunnels of the Underdark besides them in an ever-going struggle for survival is beyond redemption ability of any Eilistraeen or good-doer or what have you. Even if you redeem a drow from/for the sins of his ancient ancestors, would that immediately redeem him from the deeds of his race or what he did in life? Come on ...
And, of course, it is not that the surface elves as such were nor are all good folk either.
so you are saying it is impossible for an entire race to redeem themselves. if they are redeemed, that changes their place in the world? they can be redeemed but the question is, if they live in underdark, with the evil that surronds them wouldn't that enviroment go back to their enviroment. the way they can be redeemed is not by a spell but by time. new ideas come with new minds and more and more will think, why do we kill our kin? there is possibilty of redemtion, but that redemption depends entirely if the surface elves would be equally ready to end this hatred without the reluctent acceptance of the surface elves I beleive that any redmption attempt would fail
of course, this is all my opinion so I will not argue about it with anyone |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 15:47:53
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
Your comment makes me wonder what Corellon would think of his daughter's worshippers now when they come pietitioning up to Arvandor, given the Lady Penitent books
Hmm, are you referring to the bit about... (highlight for spoiler) most drow being descendants of Wedonai?
There's an interesting discussion on this on the WotC boards. My opinion (among others) about this particular bit of lore is that...(highlight)we have only Wedonai's word on it! It doesn't have to be taken for a fact, since it was conveyed to the reader through an unreliable narrator.
Of course, even if that wasn't the case, I don't take novels for granted as canon in *my* Realms anyway. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 15:43:09
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
And, of course, it is not that the surface elves as such were nor are all good folk either.
True, true.
As for the new lore about drow having been green elves? BAH! I don't like it. I liked the idea of drow always having been a seperate race.
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| Zanan |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 09:30:00
Can anyone try to explain to me why the drow as a race can be redeemed? IMHO, if you want to redeem someone, you do that for this individual's "failings" (in your eyes, of course). Not for the failings that led an IMHO different race (surface dark elves such as the Ilythiiri) to its doom. What the drow did afterwards, taking revenge on the surfacers and being mean and evil to anything that prowls the tunnels of the Underdark besides them in an ever-going struggle for survival is beyond redemption ability of any Eilistraeen or good-doer or what have you. Even if you redeem a drow from/for the sins of his ancient ancestors, would that immediately redeem him from the deeds of his race or what he did in life? Come on ...
And, of course, it is not that the surface elves as such were nor are all good folk either. |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 06:52:20
quote:
Originally posted by eldritchknight
Where is it said the drow were green elves? I thought that they were always drow, and the chosen elf race of Araushnee?
Corellon clearly will accept those of any race in forth that abide by his dogma, which I suspect will change some in 4th.
The Grand History of the Realms says something along the lines of in the beginning there were sun elves, moon elves, wood elves, wild elves, aquatic elves and dark elves. If memory serves, they were not "Drow" at the time, but had a racial tendency for darker skintones and possibly lighter colored hair. I imagine there was a good deal of intermarrying between "dark" elves and wood elves particularly in the region of Miyeritar.
The racial "dark elf" type did not get changed to "drow" until after the Fourth Crown war. It was supposed to only affect Ilythiir dark elves or those who were doing nasty horrible things, but it ended up affecting all dark elves regardless of alignment or nationality.
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| eldritchknight |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 04:13:45
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Akeri Rualuavain
I just hink he would gladly accept them... We have to remember that according to the legend all the elves... drow or moon, or sun are born form HIS blood. So even if he banished Auraushee from Arvandar, he will always welcome elves who have the "good" in their heart. Divinity are beyong skin collor... According to their nature of course. But any way, drow are still dark elves.
Perhaps you missed the news, Drow are/were Green elves, just a little darker green and transformed. *sighs*
Where is it said the drow were green elves? I thought that they were always drow, and the chosen elf race of Araushnee?
Corellon clearly will accept those of any race in forth that abide by his dogma, which I suspect will change some in 4th.
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| Akeri Rualuavain |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 02:41:22
Thank for the info, i had miss that. But for the rest it was basicly my tought...
FOr the fourth edition, i'm really not shure i'm gona like it... |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 02:35:24
quote:
Originally posted by Akeri Rualuavain
I just hink he would gladly accept them... We have to remember that according to the legend all the elves... drow or moon, or sun are born form HIS blood. So even if he banished Auraushee from Arvandar, he will always welcome elves who have the "good" in their heart. Divinity are beyong skin collor... According to their nature of course. But any way, drow are still dark elves.
Perhaps you missed the news, Drow are/were Green elves, just a little darker green and transformed. *sighs*
Corellon clearly will accept those of any race in forth that abide by his dogma, which I suspect will change some in 4th. |
| Akeri Rualuavain |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 02:00:50
I just hink he would gladly accept them... We have to remember that according to the legend all the elves... drow or moon, or sun are born form HIS blood. So even if he banished Auraushee from Arvandar, he will always welcome elves who have the "good" in their heart. Divinity are beyong skin collor... According to their nature of course. But any way, drow are still dark elves. |
| Lady Fellshot |
Posted - 20 Nov 2007 : 01:56:44
Your comment makes me wonder what Corellon would think of his daughter's worshippers now when they come pietitioning up to Arvandor, given the Lady Penitent books
|
| LunarMynx |
Posted - 19 Nov 2007 : 19:34:50
Eilistraee begged her Father, Corellon to allow her to leave The Seldarine. Though some say it was Eilistraee's arrow that pierced his chest when Araunshee (later Lolth) brought war to overtake Arvandor, Sehanine had seen Araunshee's magic change the arrows course. begrudgingly her father accepted Eilistraee's request, on the purpose she siught something divinly good as well as self sacrifice; to bring back his children whom he had created for his consort Araunshee. I don't see how Eilistraee would need to be accepted back unless something during her time away she has offended Corellon. In reference to The Dagger of Justice, only Corellon can prevent or accept those to Arvandor. Aside from the source books that give more detail and further the argument that Eilistraee is not part of The Seldarine, yet would be readily accepted back. |
| darkflame millithor |
Posted - 11 May 2006 : 19:56:01
Was halrua part of ancient Ilythir? |
| darkflame millithor |
Posted - 11 May 2006 : 19:50:54
My poeple we must destroy that moonstone sword!
It threatens our free will! It may enslave us to the fairies! Redeemption is in the eye of "the beholder".
I've adventured in the planes(planescape)of arboria ,and I 've been to The Grove of Lolth there. Just because there is a place there that was the dancing har..I mean the dancing goddess,it doesn't mean she lives there!
It is said that her true realm is in Svartalheim no the plane of ysgard where everyone came sing like an American Idol,and the caverns glitter.
BY the way thanks for the info about that sword
I will claim it to aid in bringing High magic back to my followers. PS is corruption part of being fey? no wonder the queen of air/darkness is powerful. I play drow the way their suppose to be played (even the non-evil ones) I've betrayed others in my band,killed others,sacrificed males.I've played all classes of characters from drow psionist to a priestess(ARACHNEE).mY NON-EVIL drow are still amoral and vicious in battle.
Drizzt lost that trait and the closest he comes now to it is the hunter.Whatever.That's the key to keeping drow as drow and not as elves. Don't forget the lessons learned from lolth(not the treachery),your heritage shapes you .drizzt wouldn't have been the badass swordsman he is without the tutilage his ancesters received from lolth. As evil as she is she has been a goddess longer than most FR deities have been in power! SHe knows how to keep her race striving(even if it is for unrepent evil.) |
| Zémobiel |
Posted - 11 May 2006 : 03:11:55
i would simply like to highlight something who has been said in the trilogy the conselors and the Kings
they are say to back to the day before the Drows became the drows, they have done experiments and have undergone somes trip to the court of the Unselies, that who have marked and corrupted in some way |
| Zanan |
Posted - 05 May 2006 : 10:13:43
On a sidenote - as this has been discussed on the WizBoards a few times too I will not expand much more here - to redeem someone, you must have someone who wants to be redeemed. It's not like the drow stripped of Lolth would yearn to be normal dark elves on the surface again, walking the Realms alongside their surface kin. They know nothing but what is told to them by the priestesses (if anything) about the elves and about their own history. To them, it is all clear. In many ways, this attempt to make the drow "good" or even "neutral" again is much like e.g. returning Tolkien's orcs back into elves or something. And while we are at it, surface elves have proven time and again that they are by no means just good-doing nature-lovers and all. |
| Fletcher |
Posted - 03 May 2006 : 22:08:26
All of my great ideas were "borrowed" by authors and published before I thought of them...where is the justice!
Mod edit: "Stolen" is such a harsh word when referring to the works of FR authors.
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