| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| bloodtide_the_red |
Posted - 09 Jun 2023 : 07:09:11
So the topic came up around one of my games of the technology of the Realms. And the fact that the Realms has been locked into "Renaissance Staisus" for 5,000 years (or worse 40,000 years, but lets not go that far back). And it has nothing to do with magic.
Earth, to compare, 5,000 years ago was the "end of the stone age" and just the start of things like farming and making tools.
But..oddly, the Realms of 5,000 years ago....had the near exact same technology as 1500DR.
And to just stick to humans. The Imaskar had swords, bows and scrolls 5,000 years ago. And humans still use swords, bows and scrolls in 1500DR. For Earth, that 5,000 years goes from clubs, slings and clay tablets....to P-90's, rail guns and digital content. And on top of that the Realms has magic to help.
But the "Theory" is the Realms has an apocalyptic event every couple of years that...oddly...obliterates all technology. And that is why the Realms is the way they are. Well, except of course there are not apocalyptic event every couple of years. Even more so when your talking world wide.
And we have the "Theory" that the Harpers are Mass Murdering Luddites that run around all over the world and destroy all technology.
But this brings us back to the Gond Question: How much does Gond know?
So, does Gond know 'near' everything about Technology? And what exactly is his limit? It would seem he knows more then all mortals in Realmspace. But to what limit? Would Gond know about radio? Electricity? Quantum Computers? Warp Drive?
Some might say Gond only "knows" what mortals know. That Gond just sit around and waits for mortals to invent things and then he looks at it and goes "oh". So Gond would not know anything about a computer until some mortal invents it first?
Though this has the stasis problem. Even in just the 2000 years of Gonds life, the Realms has invented lots of tech. Looms, water pumps, steam powered objects, printing presses, gas engines, electricity bottles and sailing ships.
So even if there is a "printing press apocalypse" every couple of years....Gond still knows about printing presses. Right?
So how does the tech get lost when Gond can just tell everyone about it? And it can't be he is not "allowed" to talk about it....as other gods sure seem to talk about their interests.
But then it's not "just" Gond. You have like another 50 or so good or neutral gods. At least some who do want to help people. Plus you have a ton ton of immortal beings. Plus undead....even some good undead. And we know lots of both of them give people "long lost magic". So why not long lost technology?
Thoughts?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 17 Sep 2024 : 04:41:55
quote:
Originally posted by nblanton
Interestingly, Storm initially assumes that Mystra wishes them to kill the Gondsmen involved, but El replies that isn't the Lady's request to do so, Ed seems to have likewise thought that killing those responsible would have been the intuitive action...and one that it would seem that El and especially Storm would have even enjoyed killing the Gondsmen.
quote:
1246: The First Bombards Thunder, GHotR pg 127
�And every ruler will send mages to slaughter the Lantanna bombard-makers and crews�or capture them,� Storm agreed. �Do I slay them first?�
Elminster shook his head. �Mystra forbids it. I asked.� Storm smiled. �Of course,� she said, spreading her hands.
Does not mean this was the only course of action he asked about, however.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I don't necessarily know that I'd use the Iron Throne as the main contact for this trade (though having them IN the trade works).
They were aggressively trying to control weaponry market. Goods with few supply sources are much easier to control. Looks like a lucrative target.
But if you mess with Lantan, you mess with Gond. Which would end poorly for the Iron Throne. Sfena should figure it out.
Then again, Lantan itself does not export artillery to open market, so just avoid them and go for spelljamming import.
An attempt to control any spelljamming port as such will put Iron Throne against much more dangerous forces. Calimport is the least-troublesome option, and it's not all that good (and the ground route is too long).
This leaves space, that is running their own import route where they want it. Which is not too complicated, if they pick an area without irritable dragons. But requires a small spelljamming fleet (mostly to protect), so huge investments.
quote:
To add to this further, in that other thread I had been pointing out other materials and how Gondsmen might be interested in them. In talking about firearms... look at the information on Hizagkuur. When this material is forged and set it takes a WISH or something of equal power to alter its shape. Plus its touch on flesh causes electrical damage without having to be enchanted to do so.
The text does not say "flesh". It's ambiguous. Considering the way it's used, probably not, or it would be trivial to circumvent.
quote:
So, think on that a second and consider a gondsmen who decides to make ammunition sheathed in bits of Hizagkuur. You can then reuse this ammunition, because its fairly hard to destroy, AND it also does additional damage.
It's an exotic, thus very expensive material (smelting "is a secret known only to a very few senior dwarven smiths and elders"). Probably a lot more expensive than extra damage as such (and +1 vs crushing blow) can be worth.
Of course, a crossbow bolt or harpoon head that gets stuck and continues to electrocute could be useful against dragons and other suchlike critters. But so would be an enchanted version, perhaps with something like Lightning Serpent (Dragon #268).
Or variations of acid arrow, for that matter, especially considering it's a better choice against many fiends. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 23 Jul 2024 : 18:04:18
Looking at that "Gond, Guns, and Iron Throne" topic, some notes
I obviously was on that thread, but I had to review it again. I do like the concept of some materials "harvested" from magic dead areas being magic "resilient"/"resistant". I also like your statement that the people of Lantan are making the guns, but not necessarily ALL the smoke powder. This gives a really good reason for trade with spelljamming communities. I don't necessarily know that I'd use the Iron Throne as the main contact for this trade (though having them IN the trade works). It would make sense to me to have spelljammers trading to Nimbral, and then Nimbral merchants trading to Lantan.
I would also add into this that there might be trade internal to realmspace as well between the halflings of the first planet, Anadia, using poisonous powderpuff plants to make a cheaper but less reliable version of smokepowder that might work for "large volume" uses like bombards.
To add to this further, in that other thread I had been pointing out other materials and how Gondsmen might be interested in them. In talking about firearms... look at the information on Hizagkuur. When this material is forged and set it takes a WISH or something of equal power to alter its shape. Plus its touch on flesh causes electrical damage without having to be enchanted to do so. So, think on that a second and consider a gondsmen who decides to make ammunition sheathed in bits of Hizagkuur. You can then reuse this ammunition, because its fairly hard to destroy, AND it also does additional damage. To add to this, we're not talking "advanced smithing" in this instance. Now, from a DM'ing perspective, I'd probably rework that damage so that it only adds a point or two for something as small as a bullet, but it is the concept that we're talking about. Granted, they'd have to be careful about how they load the ammunition, but that's simple enough using something like tongs, gauntlets, or even gloves. |
| nblanton |
Posted - 23 Jul 2024 : 03:15:48
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Was that in GHotR or in Ed Greenwood Presents : Elminster's Forgotten Realms? I know the product I mentioned does have a good presentation on Lantan.
Well, it seems I'm the one who misremembered something. It was actually from neither, although the source of the discussion was due to the Ed Greenwood Presents: Elminster's Forgotten Realms, but the source I was remembering was just a reference to it along with some additional commentary by THO in an old scroll that was referenced in a scroll I started a few years ago.
The Secret Creed of Gond by Aldric http://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19994
Gond, guns, and the Iron Throne by myself http://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22227
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
I like your idea of "dead magic" materials... it fits very well with the somewhat darker, portrayal of the Gondsmen in the book "Elminster's Forgotten Realms".
In that book, there is a Secret Creed of the Gondsmen that indicates they have 3 overall goals:
1. Influence and Control all the Rulers of Faerun.
2. Undermine and Subsume the deity Waukeen.
3. Eliminate all Spellcasters that denigrate, hate, fear, or oppose Gond, Inventions, or Mechanics.
Until I read that book, I hadn't realized quite how ruthless and imperalistic the Gondsmen could be as an organization.
So, it was actually Cyrinishad who mentioned it in the scroll I started. It appears to have been in EGP:EFR, which I still haven't gotten a copy.
I'll also go ahead and add that THO quote from the other linked scroll, as I think it has some pertinence to this discussion.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Heh. I was WONDERING how long it would take someone to notice the spellwebs and realize how long Ed has been hinting at this.
But yes, Jeremy's comment has merit. The best way to view this is . . .
(and I'm paraphrasing an explanation Ed gave me, in what follows):
Gond and his highest priests mistrusting magic and trusting in devices and tools and processes that can be fashioned and used without any Art at all. But seeing that magic is "the big hammer" in the world, and they're just going to have to live with that, seeking to have influence through wealth and ruling or more often being "powers behind thrones" instead.
Until the Spellplague hits, they see it as proof positive how dangerous magic is and how much damage over-reliance on the Art can do to everyone, and in the power grab among the deities of the Sundering (with new Tablets of Fate to be written, reflecting the "new current" status, portfolios, and power levels of the deities), the same thing that caused all sorts of Chosen to be created by many gods, they see that it's time, or should be, to move actively against arcane spellcasters. NOT in an open "kill the dirty wizards!" confrontation, because that isn't Gond's way, but to resist and thwart and crowd out and hamper, because it's better for everyone (not just Gond and his faithful) if magic is rare and special and restricted.
So there you have it. And yes, that certainly does seem as if Gond has it in for Waukeen. (Not rape, but subsumption. As in, "conquer and wrest divine power. Perhaps wed or seduce to do so, if that's what it takes to both accomplish it and avoid other gods ganging up on Gond in reaction.") Again, this is based on Ed's hints.
He also took care to add:
The best thing about all of this is that mortals (yep, even gamers!) CAN'T know what's really going on with the gods (as even the gods themselves are often mistaken, spinning things, or outright lying), so this can be "true" or "utterly false" or somewhere in between in your Realms campaign, and so can how much Gond tolerates this move-against-magic approach within his clergy and lay followers. After all, his wisest course, given the great power of the Weave, is to sit back and say and do very little, so if Mystra ever musters her Chosen and/or servitors and/or wizards in general against Gondsmen/Gondar, Gond can say: "It was merely a heresy, never something I agreed with, but as I'm NOT the tyrant Bane or Shar is, it would be wrong of me to crush mortals who espouse it; mortals must grow in insight and mastery of the world with as little steering as we divine can give them, or they have achieved nothing and are not bettered by what they do."
So saith Ed. And I'll repost all of this on his thread, for scribes who haven't found this one yet.
love,
THO
Putting all this together, I think that while I misspoke regarding the source, it's pretty clear that there is at the least some animosity between Gond and magic.
While I was wrong in the source, I did dig through it trying to find what I was looking for, but instead did go through one of the short stories regarding the invention of the bombard by the Lantanna in the 13th century DR and El and Storm working out a method of infiltration, not to destroy the tech, but ensure that various wizards don't get away with stealing it or spiriting it away. Interestingly, Storm initially assumes that Mystra wishes them to kill the Gondsmen involved, but El replies that isn't the Lady's request to do so, Ed seems to have likewise thought that killing those responsible would have been the intuitive action...and one that it would seem that El and especially Storm would have even enjoyed killing the Gondsmen.
quote:
1246: The First Bombards Thunder, GHotR pg 127
And every ruler will send mages to slaughter the Lantanna bombard-makers and crewsor capture them, Storm agreed. Do I slay them first?
Elminster shook his head. Mystra forbids it. I asked. Storm smiled. Of course, she said, spreading her hands.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Jul 2024 : 13:44:14
Was that in GHotR or in Ed Greenwood Presents : Elminster's Forgotten Realms? I know the product I mentioned does have a good presentation on Lantan. |
| nblanton |
Posted - 21 Jul 2024 : 20:39:15
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The idea that magic cannot co-exist with technology is baseless. D&D isn't Arcanum.
GHotR has an aside discussing the Gondar looking to replace/supplant/eliminate magic. |
| redking |
Posted - 18 Jul 2024 : 18:34:21
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The idea that magic cannot co-exist with technology is baseless. D&D isn't Arcanum.
I was thinking of Arcanum, actually. The medieval stasis is coming from somewhere. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 17 Jul 2024 : 16:48:19
The idea that magic cannot co-exist with technology is baseless. D&D isn't Arcanum. |
| redking |
Posted - 17 Jul 2024 : 02:29:38
Here is a possibility: Gond knows everything there is to know about technology. He can tell you about nuclear engineering or quantum mechanics. He has drawn schematics for microchips and foundries. But it is all for naught.
Gond is in a metaphysical battle with every deity and cosmic being that relies upon, or supports the existence of magic. While magic exists, Gond's greatest inventions cannot. The end goal of Gond is to bring about the apocalypse, the end to magic, the end to the supernatural, and perhaps even the end to Gond himself (he isn't sure what would happen to him in a non magical universe). For this reason, Gond has quite a lot of enemies. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Jul 2024 : 00:47:52
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the ideas that you bring up... I agree they are VERY interesting takes on the idea. Just because of the headaches it might cause, I wouldn't want to make things like "steam" as definitively ONLY the interaction of positive energy and water. I'd still like that "fire and water make steam", but I see it perfectly acceptable to say "positive energy and water ALSO make steam". Which I believe you agree with this statement as well in the above.
Um, quasielemental Steam is not too hot even in its native plane. As in, the main environmental danger other than poor visibility is dense steam being somewhat had to breathe. No heat damage except in rare pockets. Near the border with Ice (Hoarfrost) there’s cold damage, but the border with Positive (Raging Mists) merely glows.
Assuming you use well-developed Planescape lore and not Shroom Edition something.
quote:
But if the everburning stone used "somehow" caused some kind of planar disruption, that's actually a very interesting idea. A sudden wave of negative energy that drained life, created undead from the fallen bodies OR their spirits, etc...
That looks lolrandum. One thing if it was fire-related... then again, everburning stone appeared without special caveats.
quote:
I could also buy something which caused a sudden "sucking" of all water in the environs, causing an instantaneous dehydration of all bodies.
But then it would be unsuitable for steam works, no?
No, TBeholder, because one idea is that something breached the system and THEN the sucking of all water in the environs happens. In other words, only because something breaks does it have access to "outside the system that was running steam around" and then start drawing all available water to itself.
We're discussing multiple ideas though
On the quasi-elemental steam not doing damage, the original idea is that the everburning stones make the steam. Presumably quasi-elemental steam caused by positive energy and water is "different" than steam caused by fire and water. Much like "magical lightning" and "real lightning" work differently. If they're doing an everburning stone, and that produces fire "energy", then I'd expect the steam to be hot.
Another idea was that somehow "interacting"/"destroying" the everburning stone caused SOME KIND of planar disruption... well, we don't know how an everburning stone works. Destroying its ties to the plane of fire could easily result in some kind of fire backlash. CHANGING its ties from one plane to another (such as from fire to negative energy) could make an entirely different reaction.
Then, like I also said, they may have been experimenting with using pieces of the athora in this steam engine instead of everburning stones. Maybe they saw a production increase, etc... There's a lot of possibilities we could do with this. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 16 Jul 2024 : 05:04:32
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the ideas that you bring up... I agree they are VERY interesting takes on the idea. Just because of the headaches it might cause, I wouldn't want to make things like "steam" as definitively ONLY the interaction of positive energy and water. I'd still like that "fire and water make steam", but I see it perfectly acceptable to say "positive energy and water ALSO make steam". Which I believe you agree with this statement as well in the above.
Um, quasielemental Steam is not too hot even in its native plane. As in, the main environmental danger other than poor visibility is dense steam being somewhat had to breathe. No heat damage except in rare pockets. Near the border with Ice (Hoarfrost) there’s cold damage, but the border with Positive (Raging Mists) merely glows.
Assuming you use well-developed Planescape lore and not Shroom Edition something.
quote:
But if the everburning stone used "somehow" caused some kind of planar disruption, that's actually a very interesting idea. A sudden wave of negative energy that drained life, created undead from the fallen bodies OR their spirits, etc...
That looks lolrandum. One thing if it was fire-related... then again, everburning stone appeared without special caveats.
quote:
I could also buy something which caused a sudden "sucking" of all water in the environs, causing an instantaneous dehydration of all bodies.
But then it would be unsuitable for steam works, no? |
| nblanton |
Posted - 16 Jul 2024 : 01:47:15
I guess the primary problem with either of our theories is that some of these pressure engines and their associated everburning stones are still operating and maintaining some Mulhorandi irrigation systems. The other issue that needs addressing, at least in real-world heat engines is the removal of thermodynamic entropy. Perhaps some large experiment is responsible for the sudden arrival of the more metaphysical (and later identified as a primoridial) Entropy in neighboring Chessenta. Perhaps the manifestation in House Karanok's torture chamber wasn't the first time this had happened but was actually due to a rogue worshipper of Thoth (or even some nutty Gondsman fiddling with some stolen tech) was actually responsible. Maybe the earlier manifestation in Mulhorand was "dealt with" in some way by the manifestations of the Mulhorandi deities and thus the decree was laid down to "cut that out."
That said, I'm still leaning on working more on the idea of the nature of the Inner Planes being the reason for some of the overall lack of technological growth.
If you want to somehow tie Eltab into this, which I'm not sure works given that he is pretty well documented, I'd suggest that perhaps some unwitting Thothite got ahold of some the demoncysts that were created during Eltab's original binding by the Nars and decided to put it to work similar to one of the everburning stones we've been discussing, but instead kills him or herself and the knowledge of it is lost with them. Perhaps this demon-engine is actually what is binding Eltab under Eltabbar in the late 1360s and Szass Tam's theory that the city itself being a binding sigil is actually completely incorrect, and the earthquakes and such that lead into the adventure in the Spellbound boxed set are somewhat off in reality.
I don't know, just spitballing some stuff, but we've got later sources that discuss the demoncysts having both massive lighting storms as well as being able to divert portions of the River Styx into or through them. I really don't want to think about what would happen if you had an abyssal hydrogen explosion from the electrolysis of water from the river Styx. I mean, if that doesn't sound like a crazy mess of chaotic and evil energy, I don't know what could be worse. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Jul 2024 : 18:04:07
From a real world perspective... somewhat funny... I'm a network engineer for a multi-state energy company. So, while I don't control the energy side of it, I control some of the backbone communications for that stuff at a wide variety of "power creation" locations. It doesn't give me a lot of insight into the real world physics mind you.
On the ideas that you bring up... I agree they are VERY interesting takes on the idea. Just because of the headaches it might cause, I wouldn't want to make things like "steam" as definitively ONLY the interaction of positive energy and water. I'd still like that "fire and water make steam", but I see it perfectly acceptable to say "positive energy and water ALSO make steam". Which I believe you agree with this statement as well in the above.
But if the everburning stone used "somehow" caused some kind of planar disruption, that's actually a very interesting idea. A sudden wave of negative energy that drained life, created undead from the fallen bodies OR their spirits, etc... as the form of destruction that was caused works quite well. I could also buy something which caused a sudden "sucking" of all water in the environs, causing an instantaneous dehydration of all bodies. I could also buy a mass explosion, release of lightning, etc... But ultimately, I like the idea that we link the major destruction to some kind of "meltdown".
I'll take this even further though since I've had a spot to think on it even more. I mentioned the idea of the Mulhorandi experimenting with steam engines and using everburning stones. We also have the athora in that region. Who is to say that Raumathari didn't know of this magical artifact... and who is to say that some of their plants and/or constructs weren't created using small bits taken from it. I imagine there are differences if someone were to make some kind of nuclear source using uranium versus plutonium versus thorium... and I wouldn't be surprised if the same might not be said for some "steam engine" using everburning stones, athora bits, or something else entirely.
EDIT: as another aside, whatever kind of "mass destruction" that got released, its probably best if Eltab is immune to that type of "energy". Champions of ruin has him resistant to acid, cold, and fire... but immune to electricity and poison. So, having some kind of mass electrical release with poisonous steam would seem to be the best fit (superheated steam may do mild fire and acid damage as well, which he'd probably resist the majority of every round, but others wouldn't). Poisonous steam might also explain away why noone has returned 0t the region, as the land may be poisoned.
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| nblanton |
Posted - 15 Jul 2024 : 05:39:49
Sleyvas, it seems that you and I are now the few left remaining here discussing these random topics. Granted, I got this scroll from looking more into the Old Empires and Imaskar for "clues" into the Dead Three and our other discussion about the origin of Xvim, but I digress.
That said, my day job is actually in nuclear power. Currently disassembling them, or at least watching other people do that work. However, I began my career as a naval operator and ultimately went to college for Nuclear Engineering and spent just under a decade as a commercial plant operator. So, I liked what you thought about with those Old Empires references. I'd also like, since I'm resurrecting a scroll that has been dormant for just a few days over a year, to bring the on-going discussion back to the original topic of why technology has seemingly faltered in the Realms.
So, to do so, I'm going to go to a place that has been hinted at, but not exactly addressed, which are the Inner Planes. The "planes of existence" using the old Planescape terminology. One thing that seemed like it was lacking in your theory of why these pressure engines were abandoned was something that was rooted in the cosmology of the Realms, at least in my opinion. Which is why I'd like to direct our attention to the layout of the Inner Planes using the old model from AD&D.
Steam, at least in the original model, and assuming that prime material plane physics is derived from the inner planes relationship to each other, isn't a mixture of water and fire, but water and positive energy. Perhaps water heats and boils in these physics, but "steam" in the real-world sense isn't necessarily the product of such heating. According to the model, there is simply no direct connection between water and fire. These are opposing entities.
Forcing this "unnatural" fire/water vapor pressure perhaps even causes a planar fault. Not to get too deep into physics, but the subatomic particle known as a "neutrino" was hypnotized (and later actually observed to exist) to account for a bit of "missing" energy from the resultant "stuff" that was emitted from various nuclear reactions. We know understand that not only are mass and energy conserved at all times in physics, but also the total spin of the various things that make up the better-known subatomic particles (and we're now getting to the point where nuclear engineering diverges into pure physics and I know longer fully understand it) but it was simply an allusion that perhaps creating a substance that should be a combination of an energy planar substance and an elemental planar substance instead by doing so via two opposing elemental planar forces "breaks" things. Possibly with dire consequences.
Furthermore, given that the cosmology exists in the world of the Realms as defined by the Inner Planes, I'd suggest that many real-world things simply could not exist simply because the physics is not the same. It feels like a somewhat elegant solution as to why some extremely obvious things don't work yet many do. The more complex the real-world physics necessary, especially when it would require the reality of the Bohr model of the atom or something such as nearly all modern chemistry, it simply falls apart, as everything is simply varying admixtures of the 4 prime elements and the 2 energy planes. In this light, of course chemical gunpowder wouldn't work, a "smoke" powder on the other hand would be a mixture of elemental fire and air yielding the paraelemental smoke.
In the case of the magic hot rock (which is a term used in the nuclear industry to cheekily refer to the reactor core) to make steam for the pressure engines, I honestly could see that the positive energy that should have been used causing an equal amount of negative energy (similar to that spin conservation thing I mentioned earlier) to have to be "created" to offset the operation. Basically, it would be a life draining device while in operation. Perhaps just as a nuclear reactor is required to be shielded to protect the operators, there is a negative energy "glow" around one of these while operating. Small stations may be able to simply make the boilers large enough that the range of this field is fully within the confines of the device and thus relative safe, but scaled up, and you have a machine that effectively drains the lifeforce out of any and all who approach it. I'm thinking of a power plant that is inhabited by the animated undead corpses of those artificers who initially started the machine, unable to leave as the very power that sustains their undeath is also the cause of it. Seems like a fun adventure basis. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Jul 2023 : 15:16:42
I just keep bouncing this in my head, and one thing that keeps popping up is that the lands that the red wizards occupy... prior to the Mulhorandi moving in and becoming more technologically inclined... was land that was previously held by the Raumathari and prior to that the Imaskari to some degree. The people of the region seemed to have picked up on some Imaskari lore and created the portal city of Shandaular just 5 years after the closing of the orcgate (which I've often said, I wonder if they used the orcgate, copied it, or maybe learned from it to find other Imaskari portals). Whereas the Nar people embrace demon worship, necromancy, and other dark magics... the people of Raumathar seem to focus on elemental magics, "battlemagery", and eventually its said they gain a focus on constructs.
Mulhorand prior to the orcgate and the death of their ruling god Ra had just supposedly discovered "science"
At their peak, 1,000 years before the start of the current age, the First Empires of Mulhorand and Unther were at a level that has never been equalled since. Their magic was extremely powerful, and they had learned a new science "technology" that gave them greater power.
Then as Unther and Mulhorand descend a bit for about 8 centuries and Narfell and Raumathar rise and burn out.... seemingly Raumathar discovers the combining of magic and science. Then when Raumathar falls and Mulhorand moves into their territory, they seemingly double down on their study of technology while taking arcanists and putting them even more under the thumb of the theocracy.
So, all of this is to say that if we did put "factories" of some sort in Thazalhar.... they just might be places previously held and/or created by the Raumathari that were being repurposed by the Mulhorandi... and perhaps the Mulhorandi didn't understand all of their secrets yet.
One thing I do like to think is that the Raumathari study of constructs was not so much the "crafting of cog driven / Lantanese type" constructs... although we have to accept that they DID make some of these later based on novel lore.... but that perhaps they were more like the "elemental myrmidon" of 5e. They would create a suit of armor to "bind" an elemental into and this became their form... perhaps even learning some of the theories that come about for binding genies to lamps and such.
I also find it odd that the "gemstone golems" were said to originate in Mulhorand, and I wonder if these weren't creations of Raumathar that the Mulhorandi didn't learn to recreate. Basically, I picture the Raumathari having a lot of "constructs" that people could easily mixup with elementals.
Finally there are the stone colossi "statues-that-walk" that were "created by a race of giants before "the coming of the lizard folk" that are in Mulhorand. I half wonder if there weren't some of these in Raumathar as well and that perhaps they got activated and destroyed in their conflicts.... but perhaps studying them is what drove a bit of the obsession of the Raumathari into creating constructs. We had done some delving into these guys a few years back here
http://candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22035&whichpage=1
So, bringing this back to the original topic to a degree... perhaps one of these "warehouses" is an old Raumathari warehouse that the Mulhorandi are repurposing... one which held an extradimensional space, and in that extradimensional space was a legion of fire elemental myrmidons for instance... and some kind of explosion related to all of this basically ejects them into the battlefield.
I will also note that "Raumathari Ruins" would seem to indicate that the Raumathari didn't necessarily build their factories/workplaces above ground. They may have been built into the earth. I base this on this entry from Unapproachable East which seems to indicate that Raumathari ruins may have smokestacks that go into the earth, continue to burn STILL, and has "magic that mutates natural creatures" in its region.... almost like radiation... looking backwards this makes me want to have the Raumathari studying the athora
THE RING OF GRAY FLAMES
Raumathari ruins are usually clusters of tall towers, most of which are fallen or severely damaged. Guarded by lethal and large-scale battle-spells, some leach magic into the nearby area, creating odd effects and mutating natural creatures. Their treasures are usually spells designed to slaughter large numbers of foes or items that augment sorcerers magic. One ruin, called the Towers of Smoke by the nearby villagers, constantly leaks a plume of deadly vapors (equivalent to a cloudkill spell) and is said to be guarded by iron golems of many sizes.
The most famous ruin is the Ring of Gray Flames, a circle of five narrow towers, each with a harsh gray fire burning atop it. The flame emits only a feeble light but disrupts divine magic brought near it. Occasionally, grinding noises can be heard within the two intact towers. The countryside surrounding the towers is roamed by spell wards, free-willed magical constructs that seem to be spells given life.
With the idea of the Raumathari building in ground complexes with smokestacks to the surface.... I also wonder if they might not have been in conflict with the dark elves beneath their feet in Undrek'Thoz "the Segmented City" and/or if the Raumathari had any involvement with the local duergar in the area. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Jul 2023 : 16:57:28
Also, since I'm back to thinking about this idea of a cataclysmic happenstance in Thazalhar related to pressure engines.... if there were several factories and/or warehouses owned by the Mulhorandi in the region, all with ties to the pressure engine..... might some of these "places" have become defacto military facilities where troops were keeping logistical goods, resting, etc.... So, if there were some cascade failures that affected these sites, it may have caught military assets in them that wouldn't normally have been in those locations.... but because they were being sent up to quell an uprising they got caught in a by-blow as a result. Talking through this is kind of helping... I think we can come up with a much better story than the initial one we were given of a single demon being so instrumental in turning the tide of the war by combining these 3 canon facts that the end of the second mulhorandi empire was after the battle of Thazalhar, that sometime near the end of the second empire a godking ordered stopping the research of technology, and that Thazalhar was some kind of massive scale destruction that kind of decimated this region such that few want to even return to it. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 07 Jul 2023 : 14:56:23
Even dust can be explosive. Friction, heat, electrostatic discharge, all these things can ignite it under the right conditions. There are documented observations of natural fires "walking" through deserts.
But dry particle explosions tend to only have brisance, explosive shock force. They suffocate and extinguish themselves instead of causing things to burn. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Jul 2023 : 14:45:08
Simple flour can be explosive, if there's a mix of it in the air. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Jul 2023 : 13:15:07
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
What I was kind of thinking is something along the lines of a massive explosion of steam that hits something unexpected. Maybe something that was being transported by the army, or perhaps something being transported by merchants/mulhorandi servants being escorted to safety.
As in, a relatively minor industrial accident at a wrong time and place that results in major logistics failure?
Overpressure is most destructive against enclosures, followed by walls.
So this possibility only needs a destroyed warehouse. Perhaps served by a steam crane, or near a pump. Boom, everything is shattered, scattered, and/or soaked. On top of this, everyone who could have a good look at what happened there is dead.
Or even simpler: all it takes to start fires in a dry wooden town are a bit of bad luck and a few light walls knocked over (whether by overpressure or large flying debris). Good time to have some water pumps. Bad time to have freshly exploded pumps.
quote:
Bear in mind, my knowledge of chemistry is close to NIL (it was my worst science in college). But, I know that Chlorine gas is a killer.
I know that sodium itself is explosive and reacts violently with water.
The main danger of Chlorine is simply turning into acid when dissolved in water. If this happens in lungs, high enough concentration can cause local burns. Once the lungs are too burned to work, obviously it does not matter how well buffering capacity of blood and other larger tissues can handle this much acid.
In the offered scenario of salt pyrolysis in contact with steam (assuming it even actually happens on non-negligible scale) the nearest water is steam, of course. And acid does not matter much, because the other product will immediately neutralize it anyway, so beyond the relatively small very hot area it's just back to salt and water.
Obviously, heat given back at recombination stage equals heat consumed by pyrolysis. It's a reversible reaction, not perpetuum mobile.
So all it can do is to raise pressure in exchange for absorbing some heat, temporarily. Of course, if pyrolysis happens, we are already talking seriously overheated steam. It's already comparable to low explosives if allowed to expand. A bump in overpressure from extra gases may be just enough to break more sturdy things, however.
quote:
A rumor starts maybe amongst the populace that red wizards will start blowing up pressure engines all over, perhaps even furthered by the red wizards themselves.
That could be pretty much enough.
All that's needed is this being less than vital and enough of annoying/embarrassing/expensive accidents.
For a real-world example, consider USSR in Moon race. One day a failed rocket Dresdened not merely some team of local technicians, but Marshal Nedelin with entourage, which made the incident too "big" to just sweep under the carpet. In itself that catastrophe still would not be capable of ending a project of such scope. But at this point it was the last straw. So the bosses winced, sighed and said something to the effect of "You know, screw this. Let's stop doubling down. We already have scored enough points on much more practical achievements".
So, self admitting, I had to look up some of that... so pyrolysis is when matter is superheated in the absence of oxygen, breaking it down into a solid (usually a charred substance), liquid (like a bio-fuel if organic matter is used, such as a sawdust, grain, etc...), and a negligible amount of gas. But you mentioned one thing that I hadn't thought to use... instead of a moving caravan of stuff... a warehouse of stuff instead, with possibly relatively pure quality.
I guess I don't need to detail exactly WHAT was in the factory or warehouse, as there's probably dozens if not hundreds of things that could combine and go massively wrong in the presence of superheated steam. The warehouse itself may have been a factory which was breaking down something into a pure product, and perhaps they were using the pressure engine to power that. Other "factories" might have been things like sawmills which might have had huge piles of sawdust that could have become a sudden fire hazard. Furthermore, if there were several factories functioning from this, it could have been several different forms of catastrophic failure, and it could have been a kind of cascade failure (first this site explodes, then the next over there, etc...).
This idea makes me want to dot Thazalhar with several "dungeons" that are basically abandoned factories leftover from this destruction. Some may be destroyed, but others may still be relatively functional if they could get hooked back into having a steam powered pipeline to provide them power.... and someone clears out the ghosts of the people who died with their lungs melted. Having some red wizards revitalizing some of these factories, using perhaps skeleton workers in certain areas for instance, could also be fun. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 06 Jul 2023 : 16:02:15
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
What I was kind of thinking is something along the lines of a massive explosion of steam that hits something unexpected. Maybe something that was being transported by the army, or perhaps something being transported by merchants/mulhorandi servants being escorted to safety.
As in, a relatively minor industrial accident at a wrong time and place that results in major logistics failure?
Overpressure is most destructive against enclosures, followed by walls.
So this possibility only needs a destroyed warehouse. Perhaps served by a steam crane, or near a pump. Boom, everything is shattered, scattered, and/or soaked. On top of this, everyone who could have a good look at what happened there is dead.
Or even simpler: all it takes to start fires in a dry wooden town are a bit of bad luck and a few light walls knocked over (whether by overpressure or large flying debris). Good time to have some water pumps. Bad time to have freshly exploded pumps.
quote:
Bear in mind, my knowledge of chemistry is close to NIL (it was my worst science in college). But, I know that Chlorine gas is a killer.
I know that sodium itself is explosive and reacts violently with water.
The main danger of Chlorine is simply turning into acid when dissolved in water. If this happens in lungs, high enough concentration can cause local burns. Once the lungs are too burned to work, obviously it does not matter how well buffering capacity of blood and other larger tissues can handle this much acid.
In the offered scenario of salt pyrolysis in contact with steam (assuming it even actually happens on non-negligible scale) the nearest water is steam, of course. And acid does not matter much, because the other product will immediately neutralize it anyway, so beyond the relatively small very hot area it's just back to salt and water.
Obviously, heat given back at recombination stage equals heat consumed by pyrolysis. It's a reversible reaction, not perpetuum mobile.
So all it can do is to raise pressure in exchange for absorbing some heat, temporarily. Of course, if pyrolysis happens, we are already talking seriously overheated steam. It's already comparable to low explosives if allowed to expand. A bump in overpressure from extra gases may be just enough to break more sturdy things, however.
quote:
A rumor starts maybe amongst the populace that red wizards will start blowing up pressure engines all over, perhaps even furthered by the red wizards themselves.
That could be pretty much enough.
All that's needed is this being less than vital and enough of annoying/embarrassing/expensive accidents.
For a real-world example, consider USSR in Moon race. One day a failed rocket Dresdened not merely some team of local technicians, but Marshal Nedelin with entourage, which made the incident too "big" to just sweep under the carpet. In itself that catastrophe still would not be capable of ending a project of such scope. But at this point it was the last straw. So the bosses winced, sighed and said something to the effect of "You know, screw this. Let's stop doubling down. We already have scored enough points on much more practical achievements". |
| PattPlays |
Posted - 06 Jul 2023 : 02:42:40
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
The robots were able to function without magic, so Mystra could not suppress them like she would a golem.
computer science and robotics even ahead of real life modern technology
Gond is likely capable of building a Gundam/Battletech/Robotech/Megazord mecha as well as cyberpunk androids
I put a Cyricist's brain in a jar and stuck that brain in a jar into a mechanical exosuit intended to be one of these (starmetal iirc?) Gond-constructed suits. Reading all this here tells me two things. One, my 'working to infiltrate the Lierans' Cyricist cyborg's mechanical body is less a clanky iron knight and more of a fully-weaponized Fallout New-Vegas Combat Securitron with a human brain in it. I did give him a bottomless energy blasting double barrelled shotgun, so, that's basically a rocket-bay.
Secondly it tells me Gond has many crystal spheres (Campaign Settings) that he is present in across time and space and multiple realities. There are countless worlds with more backwards and more advanced technologies and on each world Gond probably operates that world's Tech at whatever is the constant determined permissible by Ao.
Gond isn't deciding what works and what doesn't. Gond is the subroutine under all things seen by thinking beings as technology, and tinkering his presence in a world is adjusting a fundamental constant expressed through the Field of Energy we have named Gond.
I love all this cosmological nonsense. |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 05 Jul 2023 : 22:38:06
I got to thinking about the battle between Mystra and Gond's robots.
The robots were able to function without magic, so Mystra could not suppress them like she would a golem.
This means that Gond is capable of using computer science and robotics even ahead of real life modern technology. The work that it takes just to make a robot walk autonomously is tremendous - making one capable of melee combat is in its infancy right now in real life.
A hundred years beyond that technology, and Gond is likely capable of building a Gundam/Battletech/Robotech/Megazord mecha as well as cyberpunk androids.
Imagine being a mage having to fight a golem or mech-suit that can function perfectly, while in a dead magic zone. RIP.
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 05 Jul 2023 : 19:04:54
The Realms already suffers from various forms of magical pollution. Whole areas like Anauroch and Thay have been drained of life to fuel magics. Countless permanent spell effects and items litter the land, sometimes their original purpose is entirely incomprehensible or broken yet they persist for ages. Humans, elves, dwarves, gods and goddesses have all left permanent marks on the land. |
| Ananda |
Posted - 05 Jul 2023 : 18:12:18
So, umm, new user here, sorry if butting in is impolite, and Im sorry if my words offend, but has anyone considered that Ao (or the developers, depends on your point of view) are keeping the realms pure on purpose? I mean, look at us. Fantasy worlds usually have a reverse pyramid sort of structure when it comes to technology (oh these guys are so smart! Wait, oops, too prideful, got blown up, back to the stone ages with you) and that keeps things feisty for adventurers, because who doesnt love lost treasure? Here in our world, outdated technology is discarded as soon as the next fad comes out, left to rot on a garbage heap somewhere. To be honest, we are messed up, and our inventions would mess Toril up more. What would happen if heavy metals contaminated a sacred spring? What could people do if their neighbors started dying off because of pollution brought in from another world, for which there is no cure? Our particular brand of poison spreads quickly, a few microplastics here, an otherworldly strain of virus there, and even the gods might struggle to control the outbreak. What they dont show you in war games is that every bomb leaves pollutants and they cause an infinite amount of grief in the long run. Sure, itll be fun at first, forts crumbling like paper, screaming Thayan wizards, but soon the details would catch up with the world and it would be a horror show. I have no doubt that Toril would emerge alive, but it would not emerge unchanged, and it shall change in the manner that our world has changed in, with millions dying at the touch of a button, and an upper class that rides upon our necks with their power. Many secrets of the Art shall be lost to the flames, I should think, and faith is difficult when the gods are powerless. (Sorry about the ranting, I get that way when it comes to climate change and stuff, and I was raised communist if that explains the last few sentences) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Jun 2023 : 16:34:00
Hmmm, also interesting in researching Lantan.... they have "flying rafts with light bombards and walls of force"... from Code of the Harpers, page 39.
The Blessings of Gond
Out of Lantan and other centers of worship to the God of Artifice have come important developments. Notable among them are stable flying rafts that incorporate "firesticks" (light bombards) and walls of force to shield the crew, and a ship or armored "worm" that can gnaw through rock, boring tunnels into the earth, through castle walls and city cellars, and the like.
<snip>
It seems the Land of Mages, Halruaa, is as alarmed by the appearance of these machines as the Harpers are. Their skyships have been seen in the skies all over the Realms, exploring; a war aloft, over Lantan and Halruaa, may come soon!
My take? One of the things I like to do is incorporate the idea that there's a lot of intertwining in the realms. I also picture that certain powerful countries are stealing intellectual property (technological, magical, etc..) from each other. In the above, I've wondered just how much spelljamming contact Lantan has had. I've wondered about Thay developing its own fledgling helms and wondered if the weren't watching Kara-Tur and Wa. Now I'm wondering if Lantan isn't watching Wa as well. Was has its "Tsunami" spelljammer (looks like a giant wormy caterpillar) with its WA-MADE Ki helm, and it has its balsa wood "locust" ships with ballista mounts that use WA-MADE rudders of propulsion that work on craft between a half ton and two tons. So maybe they stole how to make rudders of propulsion and attached one to something akin to a catamaran or drua.. basically an outrigger canoe with a platform on top. Maybe they stole the idea of the tsunami ships and are trying to make a similar machine and that's these armored worms, but they haven't gotten them flying yet, but they have gotten them drilling.
Picturing something like a drua/catamaran/outrigger canoe that's either double hulled canoes or even triple hulled
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drua
EDIT: even better... a slightly more modern catamaran... mount a light bombard ahead of the central cabin between the forward forks (one more like a mortar and less a cannon). Add some ballistae on this as well and paint it up and I think this could be fun. I may play with this tonight. Remove the propellers but leave the rudders. Have the wall of force between the forward forks and basically anchoring the bombard like its mounted against a wall. Try to paint it up in paint3d.
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5944386
EDIT of the EDIT: the above makes a really good picture... if using rudders of propulsion though, a limit of 2 tons is 4000 pounds. Grabbed the below by googling sailing boat weights... and then factoring that a bombard itself might weigh two tons, maybe they aren't using rudders of propulsion, but instead something else. I still like the outrigger idea, but maybe using "magicked" turtle shells for each of the side outrigger canoes (so like halruaan ships) and a flat raft with rails around it for the middle.
To give you a better idea of the dry weight of different vessels, well use a short list of common boat sizes by LOA (length overall) in feet. Keep in mind, the weight of a boat differs based on hull material, mast type, and many other factors.
Dinghies (less than 12): 100 to 200 pounds
Small Sailboats (15 to 20): 400 to 2,500 pounds
Medium Sailboats (21 to 25): 2,500 to 5,000 pounds
Cruising Sailboats (27 to 32): 7,000 to 12,000 pounds
Large Sailboats (35 to 40): 12,000 to 30,000 pounds |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Jun 2023 : 15:56:40
Hmmmm, in researching Lantan... I came across this old WotC web article about a Lantanese Portal that was being built. Ironically, its a portal that is incomplete but A) uses steam engine technology and B) terminates in the Mulhorandi deserts. Rather odd, given the turns this topic has taken... and the fact that both Mulhorand AND Lantan were affected by the spellplague.... and it even feeds a "how to incorporate this in your campaign" that just screams spellplague. I wasn't looking for this, but damned if I don't think its a really great find for explaining some things.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/pg20030326a" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20040203171610/http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=fr/pg20030326a
also, just to show some snippets from that article and HOW those might actually fit into the spellplague, world transfers, etc....
Created by a team of highly trained gnomes, led by a gnome called Bartok Silverhammer (a specialist in interspatial dynamics), and funded by the Gondar clergy, the Lantanese Portal is unique in a land filled with oddities -- some would call it an abomination. Bartok and his crew intend to create the first nonmagic portal in the whole of Faern. The Lantanese Portal, or the LP as it is more simply called, is identical to the portals described in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, except for the following details.
First of all, the LP is not finished. The team has a temporary magic portal working through the confines of the one that they hope will replace it eventually. The future nonmagic portal will not radiate a magical aura. As such, the spell detect magic will not reveal its presence, or so Bartok hopes. Though it's currently a magic portal, Bartok and his team are working on a set of tremendous steam engines, which were designed by Bartok, that will replace the magic version of the portal. As such, the LP cannot be moved -- both because of the magical stricture preventing it, as is the case with most portals, and also because the apparatus that provides power to the LP is too vast and complicated to be moved. Even now, the steam engines and their use are tied into the functionality of the magic portal due to the way it was created (see below for more on the "keyed" aspect of the portal). Dispel magic, gate seal, and Mordenkainen's disjunction will eventually become useless against the LP, or so Bartok believes. However, a disintegrate spell (or other spell that destroys objects) could conceivably damage a part of the LP's mechanism and prevent it from working until it can be repaired. It would certainly ruin the current keyed aspect of the magic portal.
At this time, the magic LP leads to a single destination: a desolate region of the Mulhorandi Dust Desert. Bartok believed this would be a safe target that would not needlessly jeopardize life and property. Bartok also believes that he can overcome the stricture common to magic portals that prevents a destination from changing once the portal has been created. His technicians are working on a device he calls the difference engine which, once complete, will allow the nonmagic version of the LP to be reprogrammed to target different destinations with each use.
Such a massive project is not without its pitfalls, however. First, the LP can currently be considered a malfunctioning portal, per the rules in the Forgotten Realm Campaign Setting. It works as intended only about half the time, with dire consequences resulting the rest of the time. Several teams of intrepid gnome test subjects have been dropped far off from their intended destination, and one team was killed outright. Still another team of test subjects disappeared after passing through the LP and have not been seen or heard from since.
<snip>
How to Incorporate the Lantanese Portal Into Your Campaign:
Bartok activates the LP at the same time that a follower of Set activates the nearby Mulhorandi portal. The two portals conflict with each other, causing a significant breach in the fabric of reality. This begins with simple things, localized to the Dust Desert, at first -- but quickly the effect begins to spread. Dead magic and wild magic areas appear at random, spread, and disappear. People become invisible for no apparent reason, or are subject to random polymorph spells. The PCs must get to the root of the problem and find a way to set it right. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Jun 2023 : 15:10:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Why not a "simpler" solution like an attempt at steam engine(s) powered by elementals, one or more of which escapes and runs amok? Maybe someone thought to put a water elemental and a fire elemental in the same steam engine, and of course things went south, with both escaping in a big explosion and then making it worse by battling each other and causing more property damage. (Or maybe there was an issue caused by conflicting binding magics, causing the two to merge, escape, and then destroy everything in sight)
Because that goes against canon that they use everburning stones to power their pressure engines (to note, trying to stay away from term steam engine on purpose to stay with the canon term pressure engine). The everburning stones are seemingly stable with little real threat, whereas one can easily see an issue with binding outsiders.
Now, I do like the idea that Thayans developed a spell that causes an everburning stone to release its energy rapidly, planning to use it against their enemies .... but I even more like the idea that something happened that they didn't expect and they themselves can't explain, but that they quickly capitalized upon and used to threaten, spread fear amongst their enemies, and also to make the surrounding countries as well go "let's just leave these guys alone". I love the red wizards mind you, but anything I can do to lessen the power of their founders in my view is a good thing. Having a lot of their "power" be more luck and bravado works to that end.
It also luckily seems to coincide with a Mulhorandi end of their second empire and could easily explain this strange order to stop all research into technology. Now, literally a dark age of four hundred years has passed and the people of Mulhorand as a result probably descended in intelligence and civilization, followed by another hundred years after that of time in Abeir. So, we can literally see where a vast technological knowledge was lost, and it was possibly four hundred years ago.
What occurs to me is that perhaps we should ask a question... WHEN did Lantan start its own technological pursuits? Parsing GHotR there's little in there for Lantan. The FR WIKI (by gods, can't say enough how impressed I still am with it) has some good links, but those still only go back to the 8th century, and they don't necessarily say that they were big technologists in the 8th century DR. Do we even know if the people of Lantan came from Faerun? By that I mean, might they have a spelljammer presence that's little known about because they've hidden it? Might the spelljamming people that landed at Nimbral have found this island and started occupying it? Might we find out that Mulhorandi that found technology outlawed in their empire left to this island a few centuries back? Maybe Raumathari refugees fleeing the rule of the demon lord Eltab came to this region? Maybe it was Imaskari? Or maybe they just developed a love of technology on their own and they've been raiding older cultures? What exactly do we know?
Also... interestingly enough, just found this in regard bombards that I never noticed before.. from FRCG 2nd edition and GHotR. The GHotR has a bit of a story by Ed too which I like. So, there's different types of "first bombards", with the Thayans making one kind and these guys in Lantan making others. The initial Thayan ones were more crude, built into the earth, and used "bombard oil" and hollow stone balls. Presumably the Lantanese had theirs with smokepowder, and the description is "more" portable.
1246 DR Year of Burning Steel
First recorded use of bombards by Lantan.
snippet from GHotR story
As before, we beheld a green meadow with tiny folk clustered around an object the size of a small cart. It resembled an openended cask barrel fashioned from black and oily metal rather than wooden staves, with hoop-rings as thick and mighty as the bars of castle gates. Some timbers had been piled under it to elevate its mouth.
Watching the movements of the tiny folk a second time, I noticed certain details I had not seen the first time. Events unfolded swiftlya wick or fuse at the lower end of the great metal flask was lit, the Lantanna hastily scattered, and then the gun rocked and emitted a flash, scattering the wood beneath it. Finally, a cloud of dust rose around the bombard and smoke billowed from its maw in the wake of whatever had streaked out of it.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Jun 2023 : 20:23:40
Why not a "simpler" solution like an attempt at steam engine(s) powered by elementals, one or more of which escapes and runs amok? Maybe someone thought to put a water elemental and a fire elemental in the same steam engine, and of course things went south, with both escaping in a big explosion and then making it worse by battling each other and causing more property damage. (Or maybe there was an issue caused by conflicting binding magics, causing the two to merge, escape, and then destroy everything in sight)
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Jun 2023 : 14:14:02
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Just to qualify that. The Archwizards of High Netheril used quasi-magic items and mythallars. The arcanists of Low Netheril did it old style. Which is why when you come across a "blast scepter", for example, or any permanent magic item - to attribute them to Karsus or Ioulaum or even Larloch for that matter (although the latter may have made permanent magic items after he became a lich), is just plain wrong.
Why? Autonomous enchantments were the ones made to be used away from mythallars, as simple as this. So anyone would if it's useful on an excursion to other planes, orc war, etc. Thus we can expect disproportionate amounts in protection, combat and transportation categories, while vast majority of experimental and household utility items should have been quasimagic (with exception of those made in most of Low Netheril, yes).
Ioun stones obviously fall under "adventuring" items, even if numerous apprentices could churn out even more of them in quasimagic variant.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I wonder if the steam itself might be able to be the killing medium.
Seriously? There's no "if", it's a combination of low explosive and medium with huge heat capacity and hot enough to cook someone alive.
Try Mark Twain: quote:
and the next moment four of the eight boilers exploded with a thunderous crash, and the whole forward third of the boat was hoisted toward the sky! The main part of the mass, with the chimneys, dropped upon the boat again, a mountain of riddled and chaotic rubbish—and then, after a little, fire broke out.
Many people were flung to considerable distances, and fell in the river; among these were Mr. Wood and my brother, and the carpenter. The carpenter was still stretched upon his mattress when he struck the water seventy-five feet from the boat. Brown, the pilot, and George Black, chief clerk, were never seen or heard of after the explosion. The barber's chair, with Captain Klinefelter in it and unhurt, was left with its back overhanging vacancy—everything forward of it, floor and all, had disappeared; and the stupefied barber, who was also unhurt, stood with one toe projecting over space, still stirring his lather unconsciously, and saying, not a word.
When George Ealer saw the chimneys plunging aloft in front of him, he knew what the matter was; so he muffled his face in the lapels of his coat, and pressed both hands there tightly to keep this protection in its place so that no steam could get to his nose or mouth. He had ample time to attend to these details while he was going up and returning. He presently landed on top of the unexploded boilers, forty feet below the former pilot-house, accompanied by his wheel and a rain of other stuff, and enveloped in a cloud of scalding steam. All of the many who breathed that steam, died; none escaped.
[...]
'The steamer “Gold Dust” exploded her boilers [...] Forty-seven persons were scalded and seventeen are missing. [...] Twenty-four of the injured were lying in Holcomb's dry-goods store at one time, where they received every attention before being removed to more comfortable places.'
A list of the names followed, whereby it appeared that of the seventeen dead, one was the barkeeper; and among the forty-seven wounded, were [...] we learned that none of these was severely hurt, except Mr. Gray. Letters received afterward confirmed this news, and said that Mr. Gray was improving and would get well. Later letters spoke less hopefully of his case; and finally came one announcing his death.
Or the submariners: quote:
There's 3 things that can kill everyone on board: Fire, flooding, and if one of our massive steam lines rupture.
quote:
The guy yells again "STEAM LINE.... STEAM LINE RUPTURE".... silence again.
So at this point if that watertight door isn't watertight its about to get hot really quick..... hot enough to melt me like that scene in Indiana Jones. I'm pretty much dead.
On the steam being the medium... no, I'm not THAT stupid, though I could have phrased it better though. As Wooly noted, a reaction is likely to be fairly localized (maybe "huge", but maybe not HUGE). Yes, I can easily see people that are CLOSE dying. But we're talking about a supposedly HUGE army being affected. I'm not wanting radiation fallout and radiation sickness... it's just TOO "what happens on earth happens on Toril". I also don't want the region having all animal life dying out for years following the explosion, etc... but I don't mind the region being haunted as a result of all the death. That would fit with "what we know" of the region.
What I was kind of thinking is something along the lines of a massive explosion of steam that hits something unexpected. Maybe something that was being transported by the army, or perhaps something being transported by merchants/mulhorandi servants being escorted to safety. So, let me throw out a basic idea and see how this floats. Bear in mind, my knowledge of chemistry is close to NIL (it was my worst science in college). But, I know that Chlorine gas is a killer. I know that sodium itself is explosive and reacts violently with water. So, what if some traders were transporting salt crystal, NaCl, from some mountain mines, and the red wizards caused one of the everburning stones to flash explode all of its energy in an instant instead of over centuries. Could that explosion cause the salt to become molten and separate into its components and those components react with steam? So, then the sodium explodes, and possibly a chain reaction occurs with other everburning stones, and maybe then the chlorine is spread far and wide as a wave of poisonous chlorine gas? As a follow up, perhaps the sodium and chlorine later recombine a bit, and the result is a "salting of the earth" that makes plant growth in the region less productive for a while. Does this even remotely seem viable, or am I talking out of my ass?
I'm partly looking for an idea as well where the red wizards TRULY don't understand what the hell they did to make the reaction so much more powerful (because they don't understand chemistry, even if they understand alchemy). But both of the Thothian Mulhorandi pharaohs don't know that and don't understand what happened, other than to know that it had to do with the pressure engine's destruction. A rumor starts maybe amongst the populace that red wizards will start blowing up pressure engines all over, perhaps even furthered by the red wizards themselves. One of the Thothian pharaohs, after being pressed to explain what happened since he's the EPITOME of technology, has a knee jerk reaction and bans development on another pressure engine on the border with Unther, and the fallout is that a later godking of Horus-Re spreads this ban even further when noone can explain to him exactly what happened.
********** ONLY READ THE BELOW IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN SOME DISCUSSIONS ABOUT CHEMISTRY ********************
I'm reading through the below link, but I'll admit it confuses me a good bit (it seems to confuse the people posting too, so I don't feel too bad), but it seems to somewhat support my idea.
https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/53840/why-exactly-does-molten-nacl-explode-when-it-is-poured-into-water
Also, this says that sodium itself is explosive, especially with steam involved, as it separates the hydrogen from the steam and the hydrogen explodes. This would of course have to be if there was a flash reaction with say a couple wagonloads of salt crystal that separates them into Na and Cl, and then the steam follows moments later.
https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/53840/why-exactly-does-molten-nacl-explode-when-it-is-poured-into-water |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 26 Jun 2023 : 14:23:42
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Just to qualify that. The Archwizards of High Netheril used quasi-magic items and mythallars. The arcanists of Low Netheril did it old style. Which is why when you come across a "blast scepter", for example, or any permanent magic item - to attribute them to Karsus or Ioulaum or even Larloch for that matter (although the latter may have made permanent magic items after he became a lich), is just plain wrong.
Why? Autonomous enchantments were the ones made to be used away from mythallars, as simple as this. So anyone would if it's useful on an excursion to other planes, orc war, etc. Thus we can expect disproportionate amounts in protection, combat and transportation categories, while vast majority of experimental and household utility items should have been quasimagic (with exception of those made in most of Low Netheril, yes).
Ioun stones obviously fall under "adventuring" items, even if numerous apprentices could churn out even more of them in quasimagic variant.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I wonder if the steam itself might be able to be the killing medium.
Seriously? There's no "if", it's a combination of low explosive and medium with huge heat capacity and hot enough to cook someone alive.
Try Mark Twain: quote:
and the next moment four of the eight boilers exploded with a thunderous crash, and the whole forward third of the boat was hoisted toward the sky! The main part of the mass, with the chimneys, dropped upon the boat again, a mountain of riddled and chaotic rubbish—and then, after a little, fire broke out.
Many people were flung to considerable distances, and fell in the river; among these were Mr. Wood and my brother, and the carpenter. The carpenter was still stretched upon his mattress when he struck the water seventy-five feet from the boat. Brown, the pilot, and George Black, chief clerk, were never seen or heard of after the explosion. The barber's chair, with Captain Klinefelter in it and unhurt, was left with its back overhanging vacancy—everything forward of it, floor and all, had disappeared; and the stupefied barber, who was also unhurt, stood with one toe projecting over space, still stirring his lather unconsciously, and saying, not a word.
When George Ealer saw the chimneys plunging aloft in front of him, he knew what the matter was; so he muffled his face in the lapels of his coat, and pressed both hands there tightly to keep this protection in its place so that no steam could get to his nose or mouth. He had ample time to attend to these details while he was going up and returning. He presently landed on top of the unexploded boilers, forty feet below the former pilot-house, accompanied by his wheel and a rain of other stuff, and enveloped in a cloud of scalding steam. All of the many who breathed that steam, died; none escaped.
[...]
'The steamer “Gold Dust” exploded her boilers [...] Forty-seven persons were scalded and seventeen are missing. [...] Twenty-four of the injured were lying in Holcomb's dry-goods store at one time, where they received every attention before being removed to more comfortable places.'
A list of the names followed, whereby it appeared that of the seventeen dead, one was the barkeeper; and among the forty-seven wounded, were [...] we learned that none of these was severely hurt, except Mr. Gray. Letters received afterward confirmed this news, and said that Mr. Gray was improving and would get well. Later letters spoke less hopefully of his case; and finally came one announcing his death.
Or the submariners: quote:
There's 3 things that can kill everyone on board: Fire, flooding, and if one of our massive steam lines rupture.
quote:
The guy yells again "STEAM LINE.... STEAM LINE RUPTURE".... silence again.
So at this point if that watertight door isn't watertight its about to get hot really quick..... hot enough to melt me like that scene in Indiana Jones. I'm pretty much dead.
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| DoveArrow |
Posted - 26 Jun 2023 : 05:30:56
quote:
Originally posted by bloodtide_the_red
The Dark Ages has always been a myth. Sure the aristocrats in Western Europe really felt the Fall of Rome as they lost their soft spots. And a couple others. Though a lot of folk did not even notice. Eastern Europe sure went on like normal. No one in the Americas knew. And very little of Asia, like China, did not notice much.
The idea that "The Realms has an anti tech apocalypse" every couple years is a bit silly. The "Fall of Netheirl" sure was not one. Sure all the flying cities fell out of the sky...and magic went away for a couple minutes. But nothing in the Fall sent out a planet wide wave of anti technology. A printing press anywhere in the world, as long as it was not under a falling enclave, would have been just fine. The same is true with the Time of Troubles. No wave of anti technology covered the planet for that summer. And the Spellplauge and Shundering did blow up a lot of stuff....but still did not target tech. Not to mention places like Waterdeep that have "plot armor"...
And some how....things like books survived. Book making was not lost, and that takes some technology.
So listen, I'm getting the sense that you don't really want other people's ideas for how to explain Faerun's seeming lack of progress in technology. It seems to me you just want to be right. That's fine. However, I'm not really interested in having a conversation with someone like that. You have a wonderful day. |
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