| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Azar |
Posted - 14 Nov 2021 : 19:50:11
Hello there.
(Minor spoilers concerning the computer role-playing game Baldur's Gate III are below.)
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There is a moment when a hirable NPC explains that they are a servant of Shar; additionally, said individual wears iconography related to the Dark Lady. This is supposed to come across as a shocking(?) reveal, but it feels flat, because I was under the impression that Shar - being a Greater Deity and malevolent mover-and-shaker in the Realms - was known by just about anyone that hasn't elected to reside beneath a pebble. Let me ask you all, though...just how widespread is Shar's name/reputation among the laity of Faerun? To my way of thinking, if you were to utter "Shar" in, say, Mistledale or Damara, it would be little different from mentioning "Satan" in Oklahoma or Manchester: the basic character is understood even if the specifics are elusive. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Dec 2021 : 02:04:40
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
How much do you play up this everyday factor in your games (or played it up, past tense) and how much reciprocity do/did you expect from your players?
I've never DM'ed, and I avoid playing characters that have any kind of clerical thing going on... So most of my characters will do the occasional gesture towards their patron deity, and that's about it.
My current character (in a 2E game!) is a dwarven fighter. He doesn't talk about religion, but he proudly wears Moradin's holy symbol, he's taken time to pray for fallen allies, and every time he's had to get on a ship, he's flipped a gold coin over the side to placate Umberlee. |
| Azar |
Posted - 05 Dec 2021 : 23:05:39
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
But to get back to the original topic, It looks to me like the big takeaway is that context matters a lot. Someone like Shadowheart may or may not even be particularly obvious followers of a deity depending on a number of factors-I mentioned the ambiguity of some symbolism previously. And certain groups/places might be more inclined to have strong opinions about or even know much about certain deities, their followers, or the religious practices associated with them. Maybe some locals or the clergy of a deity opposed to Shar might petition to get someone like Shadowheart thrown out of a city if she's recognized for what she is, but otherwise might just be 'watched' by the guard and/or other parties, possibly asked to answer a few questions about their business in the city, etc. But not necessarily jailed on sight like a cleric of Bhaal or Cyric etc.
I wonder if - on a large enough scale - there is a "self-correcting mechanism"; those who are observed not praying to a particular god to ward off catastrophe/invite success may either be approached by a stranger (benevolent or timid in their superstition, your pick) or advised by a comrade. Your thoughts?
I think it'd be like in the real world: some religious people try to lead you to their religion by example, some try to gently persuade, and some are in your face about it. A lot of other religious folks, though, just go their own way. While they may discuss religion if asked, they'll otherwise stay quiet on the topic.
In the Realms, where proof of divine existence is undeniable and everyone believes in all of the gods (even if they only pay attention to a handful), I think that most people will fall into the latter category. If it's a life-or-death thing, they may counsel praying to the appropriate powers, but aside from that, most non-priests will likely let each person do their own thing.
How much do you play up this everyday factor in your games (or played it up, past tense) and how much reciprocity do/did you expect from your players?
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
It's already been said and the discussion has veered a bit, but to the original question; yes. While your "average joe" may not know all the gods, they will certainly know the "main" ones. Gods are a big and real force in FR, and a deity like Shar, who is in opposition to Selune and an old deity, would be a well known name.
Given the presence of racial pantheons, are you a firm believer of "When in Rome..." or would someone continue to display (minor) reverence to gods of their race/species only? |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 25 Nov 2021 : 21:43:30
It's already been said and the discussion has veered a bit, but to the original question; yes. While your "average joe" may not know all the gods, they will certainly know the "main" ones. Gods are a big and real force in FR, and a deity like Shar, who is in opposition to Selune and an old deity, would be a well known name. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Nov 2021 : 21:57:17
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
But to get back to the original topic, It looks to me like the big takeaway is that context matters a lot. Someone like Shadowheart may or may not even be particularly obvious followers of a deity depending on a number of factors-I mentioned the ambiguity of some symbolism previously. And certain groups/places might be more inclined to have strong opinions about or even know much about certain deities, their followers, or the religious practices associated with them. Maybe some locals or the clergy of a deity opposed to Shar might petition to get someone like Shadowheart thrown out of a city if she's recognized for what she is, but otherwise might just be 'watched' by the guard and/or other parties, possibly asked to answer a few questions about their business in the city, etc. But not necessarily jailed on sight like a cleric of Bhaal or Cyric etc.
I wonder if - on a large enough scale - there is a "self-correcting mechanism"; those who are observed not praying to a particular god to ward off catastrophe/invite success may either be approached by a stranger (benevolent or timid in their superstition, your pick) or advised by a comrade. Your thoughts?
I think it'd be like in the real world: some religious people try to lead you to their religion by example, some try to gently persuade, and some are in your face about it. A lot of other religious folks, though, just go their own way. While they may discuss religion if asked, they'll otherwise stay quiet on the topic.
In the Realms, where proof of divine existence is undeniable and everyone believes in all of the gods (even if they only pay attention to a handful), I think that most people will fall into the latter category. If it's a life-or-death thing, they may counsel praying to the appropriate powers, but aside from that, most non-priests will likely let each person do their own thing. |
| Azar |
Posted - 22 Nov 2021 : 21:33:38
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
But to get back to the original topic, It looks to me like the big takeaway is that context matters a lot. Someone like Shadowheart may or may not even be particularly obvious followers of a deity depending on a number of factors-I mentioned the ambiguity of some symbolism previously. And certain groups/places might be more inclined to have strong opinions about or even know much about certain deities, their followers, or the religious practices associated with them. Maybe some locals or the clergy of a deity opposed to Shar might petition to get someone like Shadowheart thrown out of a city if she's recognized for what she is, but otherwise might just be 'watched' by the guard and/or other parties, possibly asked to answer a few questions about their business in the city, etc. But not necessarily jailed on sight like a cleric of Bhaal or Cyric etc.
I wonder if - on a large enough scale - there is a "self-correcting mechanism"; those who are observed not praying to a particular god to ward off catastrophe/invite success may either be approached by a stranger (benevolent or timid in their superstition, your pick) or advised by a comrade. Your thoughts? |
| TKU |
Posted - 21 Nov 2021 : 21:47:39
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yes.
The premise was horribly flawed: a group of drow that can't get along for even a few days goes on a journey to another city to figure out why their goddess -- who is in her divine realm and not in that other city -- has fallen silent, whilst said goddess literally eats herself and somehow comes out more powerful for it.
Among the numerous other issues I had, the "too many cooks" thing was a major one. Characters were changing from book to book -- most particularly the draegloth who was practically servile to one of the priestesses in one book and openly contemptuous of her in the next. I think a good editorial pass could have smoothed out some of this, but I don't think that WotC even did that much.
'Too many cooks' summarizes many of my feelings of the shortcomings of that series as well. I really enjoyed Ryld & Pharaun's relationship while they ran around being detectives, and the Quenthel vs Gromph stuff was pretty engaging as well. But after the first novel It kinda felt like nobody knew what to do with them. Ryld just kinda became irrelevant in a party full of non-magical fighting types, Pharaun's friction with Quenthel quickly lost its charm, and the unresolved conflict with Ryld was just left...unresolved. Quenthel lost all of the devious cunning that made her fun and was just hot-headed and stupid.
The fact that even more characters were added to the list of protagonists didn't help either. Some characters ended up having really poor or nonexistent arcs.
I think a lot of it ended up being rushed too. Like you said, editors could probably have smoothed a lot of it over, but I think when you have a six-book series like that with six different authors it's an invitation for problems to develop.
The other big problem though, I think was the overarching plot as a whole. The end result of the whole saga was that Lolth moved out of her old house and moves into a new, slightly sandier apartment. Oh, and merging with the most insufferable character of the cast as well could wear her face I guess. A six book series so I could come to despise characters I had started out loving, watch interesting alternatives to Menzo wiped off the map, sit through half-hearted detours to Myth Dranor, Anauroch desert etc, read extraneous fight scenes, so Lolth could engage in some auto-cannibalism and renovate the demonweb pits.
Fewer writers (one preferably), smaller cast, less focus on the goings-on in Menzo after the group's departure (seriously, the whole siege of Menzoberranzan could have been cut out and put in its own book) and generally a less 'epic' scope and interference by Wotc to the story would have served it better, IMO. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 21 Nov 2021 : 05:41:25
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Someone once tried to quote sales figures to me to prove the War of the Spider Queen books were good. I responded that if that was our only measure of quality, then the Twilight books were better than anything Realms-related.
Dude didn't have a response to that one! 
Indeed. "...to become THAT popular, it NEEDS to be bad." (Mainstream shonens are bad by default, by kukuruyo - search for the title if interested, but know it may be NSFW, and the rest of his site is much more so)
Though the sinking of unsinkable Star Wars after being acquired by Disney (the infamous "I literally watched Solo solo", toys, empty parks...) may be a sign of the "pre-packaged hype is all you need" business model dying at last, and then "drool, squee and hype" subtype will at very least shrink a lot.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Among the numerous other issues I had, the "too many cooks" thing was a major one. Characters were changing from book to book
Yup. It had fun moments (like Pharaun's speech to the "dead mollusc"), but it's like no one ever tried to coordinate beyond giving each writer one-paragraph blurb and general "where they all are" snapshot for the points when one book ends and another starts.
Back to... uh... Lord Ginsu, it's not that the series did damage beyond salvageable. The drow and those who interact with them (or fear and half-expect to, like surface elves) may know about Lolth more than the rest, and be jumpy for it, while other may or may not even know the name. That's no big deal.
It got really silly only when she wound up as the default placeholder villain. That is, dropped into any half-baked plot not obviously related to any of her interests. With SpiderWeb Demonweave as the epilogue.
Likewise for Shar, used the same way in the era of ShadowShadowShadow. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 21 Nov 2021 : 02:33:41
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by see
Yeah, the greater goddess of night and dark should be pretty well-known to just about anyone. I mean, there's a night every single day most places; a placatory prayer to Shar for the dangerous things that go around in the dark to overlook you should be routine from almost everyone pretty much every day.
On Lolth, I much prefer the Realms status quo as of Ed Greenwood's October 1981 Dragon article "Down-to-earth Divinity", where pretty much nobody on the surface knows anything about drow/dark elves, but they do have a nodding acquaintance with Lolth, since she's the goddess of spiders, and there are plenty of spiders around. You probably want to send her a prayer of placation when you squish one by accident, but you're definitely going to look at someone who makes regular devotions to Lolth as a really odd duck.
The insane popularity of Lord Ginsu ended that idea.
To be honest, the idea of a gleefully maniacal barbarian who's effectively a walking ginsu knife working his way through Drizz't's adventures is kind of entertaining. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Nov 2021 : 22:53:05
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Is it your belief that the series was hampered by too many cooks or did you dislike the basic premise from the get-go?
Yes.
The premise was horribly flawed: a group of drow that can't get along for even a few days goes on a journey to another city to figure out why their goddess -- who is in her divine realm and not in that other city -- has fallen silent, whilst said goddess literally eats herself and somehow comes out more powerful for it.
Among the numerous other issues I had, the "too many cooks" thing was a major one. Characters were changing from book to book -- most particularly the draegloth who was practically servile to one of the priestesses in one book and openly contemptuous of her in the next. I think a good editorial pass could have smoothed out some of this, but I don't think that WotC even did that much.
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Makes me wonder...if the moon is out, would they make an additional prayer to Selune or would they skip the utterance towards Shar and instead focus solely on her beneficent sister?
It would depend. If the person benefits from the moonlight, of course they're going to thank Selūne for it. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Nov 2021 : 22:47:54
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Makes me wonder...if the moon is out, would they make an additional prayer to Selune or would they skip the utterance towards Shar and instead focus solely on her beneficent sister?
-That is a good point. I remember seeing an example in probably Faiths and Avatars mentioning that someone might give a quick prayer to Beshaba to keep bad luck away. Makes you wonder, wouldn't it be just as effective to say a prayer to Tymora to wish for good luck? I thought looking to real world examples of truly polytheistic religious systems where there were actual entities embodying or having power over directly polar concepts would be a good way to see examples, like classical Greek and Vedic, but honestly, a lot of that was beyond my understanding and I'm back at square one.
Maybe it's a case of trying specifically to ward away bad luck -- not necessarily to have good luck, but just not to have bad luck. Like a friendly bit of gambling -- you may not want to waste Tymora's blessing on winning a handful of gold pieces, but at the same time, you don't want to go home empty-handed. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 20 Nov 2021 : 19:01:29
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Makes me wonder...if the moon is out, would they make an additional prayer to Selune or would they skip the utterance towards Shar and instead focus solely on her beneficent sister?
-That is a good point. I remember seeing an example in probably Faiths and Avatars mentioning that someone might give a quick prayer to Beshaba to keep bad luck away. Makes you wonder, wouldn't it be just as effective to say a prayer to Tymora to wish for good luck? I thought looking to real world examples of truly polytheistic religious systems where there were actual entities embodying or having power over directly polar concepts would be a good way to see examples, like classical Greek and Vedic, but honestly, a lot of that was beyond my understanding and I'm back at square one. |
| Azar |
Posted - 20 Nov 2021 : 18:14:44
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
Titanic was a decent enough movie IMO, but I'd have to echo some of the sentiments that it was nowhere near good enough to warrant the attention it got. It kinda got seized on and the snowball just got rolling on it though. A good example of how popularity doesn't automatically equate to quality IMO-although that association *does* get made quite a lot. Got plenty of memories of getting dragged to a lot of awful movies by my friends because it was the next big blockbuster or whatever.
Someone once tried to quote sales figures to me to prove the War of the Spider Queen books were good. I responded that if that was our only measure of quality, then the Twilight books were better than anything Realms-related.
Is it your belief that the series was hampered by too many cooks or did you dislike the basic premise from the get-go?
quote:
Originally posted by see
Yeah, the greater goddess of night and dark should be pretty well-known to just about anyone. I mean, there's a night every single day most places; a placatory prayer to Shar for the dangerous things that go around in the dark to overlook you should be routine from almost everyone pretty much every day.
Makes me wonder...if the moon is out, would they make an additional prayer to Selune or would they skip the utterance towards Shar and instead focus solely on her beneficent sister? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 20 Nov 2021 : 15:00:56
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
Titanic was a decent enough movie IMO, but I'd have to echo some of the sentiments that it was nowhere near good enough to warrant the attention it got. It kinda got seized on and the snowball just got rolling on it though. A good example of how popularity doesn't automatically equate to quality IMO-although that association *does* get made quite a lot. Got plenty of memories of getting dragged to a lot of awful movies by my friends because it was the next big blockbuster or whatever.
Someone once tried to quote sales figures to me to prove the War of the Spider Queen books were good. I responded that if that was our only measure of quality, then the Twilight books were better than anything Realms-related.
Dude didn't have a response to that one! |
| Azar |
Posted - 20 Nov 2021 : 08:32:30
Ah, the right-wing's infinite obsession over a bean. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 20 Nov 2021 : 08:19:27
Ah, found it: on deities, names and namesakes.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Between the rabid fanbase and WotC's antics in keeping them stirred up, I feel like that particular market was over-saturated a long time ago.
Let's count our blessings. They could cater to the shippers, like the Soy Wars team did.
quote:
it makes for a much stronger desire to avoid the object of that hype. I'm still avoiding the movie Titanic, for example, because of that accursed song and all the people that said "Oh, I wasn't interested, either, but I went and saw it anyway and it was really good, so you should go see it!"
True, but maybe this calls for an approach from another angle.
It's reasonable to presume the scribes like messy and complicated contexts. Thus it may be more interesting to watch said movie immediately after (or maybe before) browsing the context where it exists: Encyclopedia Titanica and other related materials. Trying to "Borjes up" such works could be cool.
This elevates a movie from yet another over-advertised show of Hollywood's swan-song era to a historical meta-documentary on the whole mess of phenomena that didn't start or end with the sea vessel in question. In context of the whole Birkenhead LARP thing and discussion thereof, spins, re-spins, the insurance fraud hypothesis, etc. |
| TKU |
Posted - 19 Nov 2021 : 20:21:53
Titanic was a decent enough movie IMO, but I'd have to echo some of the sentiments that it was nowhere near good enough to warrant the attention it got. It kinda got seized on and the snowball just got rolling on it though. A good example of how popularity doesn't automatically equate to quality IMO-although that association *does* get made quite a lot. Got plenty of memories of getting dragged to a lot of awful movies by my friends because it was the next big blockbuster or whatever.
quote:
Devils's advocate: if a product is going to do the heavy lifting in order to keep The Forgotten Realms popular among a wider customer base, would you rather it be Slashy McScimitars or Magic: The Gathering?
Funny you mention that, once upon a time Magic the Gathering had a burgeoning novel line of its own, in addition to some tentative forays into other mediums like comic books and video games. Like WotC did to the D&D novel lines, the same happened to MTG. Like with D&D, my impression is that the card game suffered for this decision.
Both IPs could have had healthy, sustaining material outside of the games themselves, but wotc is gonna make the decisions they are gonna make, I guess...
But to get back to the original topic, It looks to me like the big takeaway is that context matters a lot. Someone like Shadowheart may or may not even be particularly obvious followers of a deity depending on a number of factors-I mentioned the ambiguity of some symbolism previously. And certain groups/places might be more inclined to have strong opinions about or even know much about certain deities, their followers, or the religious practices associated with them. Maybe some locals or the clergy of a deity opposed to Shar might petition to get someone like Shadowheart thrown out of a city if she's recognized for what she is, but otherwise might just be 'watched' by the guard and/or other parties, possibly asked to answer a few questions about their business in the city, etc. But not necessarily jailed on sight like a cleric of Bhaal or Cyric etc.
|
| Azar |
Posted - 19 Nov 2021 : 19:51:42
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
There are days when I feel that appellation was so given because he eventually got under your skin...like a ginsu knife  .
It's not the character, it's the hype. I've been bored with the character for a long time -- but WotC kept slapping him on everything, making sure he was constantly front and center, in order to cater to those fans that think the entire setting is just that one person. Between the rabid fanbase and WotC's antics in keeping them stirred up, I feel like that particular market was over-saturated a long time ago.
I still enjoy the first three "official" Drizzt novels (Homeland, Exile and Sojourn) and his Icewind Dale trilogy debut is pretty good, but after those...the quality of Salvatore's Forgotten Realms' creations begins to fluctuate like a roller coaster.
Devils's advocate: if a product is going to do the heavy lifting in order to keep The Forgotten Realms popular among a wider customer base, would you rather it be Slashy McScimitars or Magic: The Gathering?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are other factors, here, but a large one is that when there is something I don't want to be a part of and yet there's so much hype that I can't escape it, it makes for a much stronger desire to avoid the object of that hype. I'm still avoiding the movie Titanic, for example, because of that accursed song and all the people that said "Oh, I wasn't interested, either, but I went and saw it anyway and it was really good, so you should go see it!"
I too have yet to watch Titanic, but not because of any special aversion; there are many highly-rated/highly-praised films (some of them seminal works) that I simply haven't gotten around to watching.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-It's okay. It wasn't good, it wasn't bad, it just was, but it's definitely not worth being the top grossing movie in history for a decade or however exactly long it was on top. Not missing anything by not seeing it lol.
For a split second, I thought you were talking about Shar. Then, I read "movie" and said (in my head) "Oh."  . |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 19 Nov 2021 : 16:05:58
-It's okay. It wasn't good, it wasn't bad, it just was, but it's definitely not worth being the top grossing movie in history for a decade or however exactly long it was on top. Not missing anything by not seeing it lol. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Nov 2021 : 20:44:21
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
There are days when I feel that appellation was so given because he eventually got under your skin...like a ginsu knife .
It's not the character, it's the hype. I've been bored with the character for a long time -- but WotC kept slapping him on everything, making sure he was constantly front and center, in order to cater to those fans that think the entire setting is just that one person. Between the rabid fanbase and WotC's antics in keeping them stirred up, I feel like that particular market was over-saturated a long time ago.
There are other factors, here, but a large one is that when there is something I don't want to be a part of and yet there's so much hype that I can't escape it, it makes for a much stronger desire to avoid the object of that hype. I'm still avoiding the movie Titanic, for example, because of that accursed song and all the people that said "Oh, I wasn't interested, either, but I went and saw it anyway and it was really good, so you should go see it!" |
| Azar |
Posted - 18 Nov 2021 : 18:53:06
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by see
Yeah, the greater goddess of night and dark should be pretty well-known to just about anyone. I mean, there's a night every single day most places; a placatory prayer to Shar for the dangerous things that go around in the dark to overlook you should be routine from almost everyone pretty much every day.
On Lolth, I much prefer the Realms status quo as of Ed Greenwood's October 1981 Dragon article "Down-to-earth Divinity", where pretty much nobody on the surface knows anything about drow/dark elves, but they do have a nodding acquaintance with Lolth, since she's the goddess of spiders, and there are plenty of spiders around. You probably want to send her a prayer of placation when you squish one by accident, but you're definitely going to look at someone who makes regular devotions to Lolth as a really odd duck.
The insane popularity of Lord Ginsu ended that idea.
There are days when I feel that appellation was so given because he eventually got under your skin...like a ginsu knife . |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 18 Nov 2021 : 15:56:31
quote:
Originally posted by see
Yeah, the greater goddess of night and dark should be pretty well-known to just about anyone. I mean, there's a night every single day most places; a placatory prayer to Shar for the dangerous things that go around in the dark to overlook you should be routine from almost everyone pretty much every day.
On Lolth, I much prefer the Realms status quo as of Ed Greenwood's October 1981 Dragon article "Down-to-earth Divinity", where pretty much nobody on the surface knows anything about drow/dark elves, but they do have a nodding acquaintance with Lolth, since she's the goddess of spiders, and there are plenty of spiders around. You probably want to send her a prayer of placation when you squish one by accident, but you're definitely going to look at someone who makes regular devotions to Lolth as a really odd duck.
The insane popularity of Lord Ginsu ended that idea. |
| see |
Posted - 18 Nov 2021 : 14:18:25
Yeah, the greater goddess of night and dark should be pretty well-known to just about anyone. I mean, there's a night every single day most places; a placatory prayer to Shar for the dangerous things that go around in the dark to overlook you should be routine from almost everyone pretty much every day.
On Lolth, I much prefer the Realms status quo as of Ed Greenwood's October 1981 Dragon article "Down-to-earth Divinity", where pretty much nobody on the surface knows anything about drow/dark elves, but they do have a nodding acquaintance with Lolth, since she's the goddess of spiders, and there are plenty of spiders around. You probably want to send her a prayer of placation when you squish one by accident, but you're definitely going to look at someone who makes regular devotions to Lolth as a really odd duck. |
| Azar |
Posted - 17 Nov 2021 : 09:18:14
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Likewise, many Calishites (at least in Calimport) probably remember about Shar, since her priesthood is a major part of local history, even if others overshadowed her more recently.
Awesome pun  . |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 17 Nov 2021 : 08:42:31
Either way, when people have a good reason to really care about it first. But that's very specific and situational.
Deities whose obvious followers are remembered, sure. Dalesmen and Mooneyes probably remember Bane's symbolism all too well, since they had troubles with Zhents for a long while.
Being an entrenched and disturbing part of one's mythology helps. Such as Lolth for the elves in whose heads she occupies a rent-free corner (hmm, does this count as... faith?), sure.
Likewise, many Calishites (at least in Calimport) probably remember about Shar, since her priesthood is a major part of local history, even if others overshadowed her more recently.
There are only a few "always relevant" deities in each specific case to be remembered, whether as hostile or as benevolent.
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
But, if you have something that substantially resembles a god's symbol, the god may know about it.
IIRC, automatic awareness is for their own name and titles only, and even then somewhat limited (then they filter out most of this anyway).
quote:
Here is a related example from canon: a mage's sigil. Mystra knows if anyone tries to use a mage's sigil other than the mage themselves and will take immediate action against the individual. If she can do that for stuff that isn't even her own symbol, gods should be able to detect someone using their own symbol in any context.
It's a deliberate act by the most powerful local deity, tracking and protecting her assets and potential headaches. |
| Azar |
Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 19:37:58
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
In case of a surface elf, major possibilities are:
A. The item is drow made, and enchanted,
B. The elf is from somewhere they don't have problems with the Lolth-worshipping drow (such as Krynnspace). It still may be drow made, since the elf, in blissful ignorance, could just purchase a finely crafted accessory somewhere and subsequently ignore strange looks from encountered EIN personnel.
C. The wearer is not really a surface elf, and whoever made that disguise was somewhat ill-informed as to what would be appropriate.
The elf may be a druid of Rillifane Rallathil (i.e., a caretaker of all animals), but, even so, I imagine there's strong cultural motivation to distance one's self from spiders. At least two elfish Specialty Priests are built - in part - for combatting the eight-legged menaces; attitudes in elven communities are clearly skewed against arachnids.
quote:
Originally posted by Athreeren
As TBeholder mentioned, the item being powerful (with no curse) would be a good reason to hold on to it despite its aesthetics (although it might mark you as a target from that cult, if not from the god themselves).
Unless the armor in question requires line-of-sight to work its magic, throw on a voluminous cloak or robe for Pete's sake. |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 17:46:25
[/quote]The character in question actually preaches a bit of that 'taking away your pain' sort of stuff to the player if you ask her about it. Though I wonder how much scrutiny an open or outed cleric of Shar could expect to face in most places, given their dual association with providing services that could be seen as beneficial and the more sinister and evil activities their clerics are perhaps infamous for.
Certainly wouldn't want to be mistaken for even a casual observer of
[/quote] certain deities like one of the Dead Three or Lloth etc in many places. I can't really think of any activities that followers of some deities could be associated with that people in most places would be OK with.
I agree it depends a bit on where you are too (Waterdeep is almost certainly less tolerant of Sharrans, as is Cormyr, even seemingly benign ones given their favoring of Selune and history with Sharrans. That said, I seemingly benign Sharran might be able to overcome such concerns with some persuasion.
And yep that some gods don't seem to have a benevolent aspect. Cyric and Bhaal come to mind, but Bane could be seen as the better of worlds, authority over chaos. Myrkul has a key role to play in the afterlife. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 16:34:24
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
How about we flip the question to the other side: would anyone want to wear anything that is associated with a specific god? Remember, the gods are real and interact with people. Would you WANT to gain the attention of Shar, Lolth, etc by wearing their associated symbol? If I lived in the Realms, I wouldn't.
The problem is, there are many deities, and all have a list of various stuff "associated with" them, so taken in bulk, there's far too much of that. Inevitably including very common and/or overlapping elements.
Spiders became common for the drow, most colors are fairly common everywhere respective dyes are affordable (with a few local exceptions, like specific shades of red in Thay), more or less depending on current fashion.
Thus there would be far too many things to care about or even remember (short of holy symbols). You cannot bless every sneeze.
Nor are the gods able or willing to track watch anyone whose clothes include things like anything purple, at least one emerald, etc. People who already have attention of deities due to working for them (especially representing them!), that's another matter.
I agree. This would not be about something associated with a particular god other then their symbol. Just because you have a diamond doesn't mean that Segojan is going to be hanging on your every word. But, if you have something that substantially resembles a god's symbol, the god may know about it.
Here is a related example from canon: a mage's sigil. Mystra knows if anyone tries to use a mage's sigil other than the mage themselves and will take immediate action against the individual. If she can do that for stuff that isn't even her own symbol, gods should be able to detect someone using their own symbol in any context. The true test is just how much the depiction resembles the actual divine symbol. It would also depend if the individual was doing something that might draw the god's attention. But, is any chance, no matter how small, worth the risk? |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 15:36:09
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Which is to say that while many of the evil gods evoke some trepidation, they aren't necessarily all viewed as complete bogeymen, but rather as part of reality that must be dealt with and if dealt with properly could be to one's benefit (albeit there could be risks that make it not worth it). Just like treating with hags can have its benefits at least in the short term.
Of course Shar will get you in the long run, but manipulating your pain into driving you deeper and deeper into her nihilistic outlook.
Ultimately, most of the evil gods should have something to offer the lay person, otherwise only crazy, power mad folk would ever worship them and there simply aren't enough of them.
I would think it would depend on the area. In a location with a temple to Selune, the Selunites would know of Shar's manipulative nature and include warnings about it in their services. It would then spread a bit given that people will talk about what they have heard. In that case, at least some portion of the population would be concerned if some Sharites showed up. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 09:07:19
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
How about we flip the question to the other side: would anyone want to wear anything that is associated with a specific god? Remember, the gods are real and interact with people. Would you WANT to gain the attention of Shar, Lolth, etc by wearing their associated symbol? If I lived in the Realms, I wouldn't.
The problem is, there are many deities, and all have a list of various stuff "associated with" them, so taken in bulk, there's far too much of that. Inevitably including very common and/or overlapping elements.
Spiders became common for the drow, most colors are fairly common everywhere respective dyes are affordable (with a few local exceptions, like specific shades of red in Thay), more or less depending on current fashion.
Thus there would be far too many things to care about or even remember (short of holy symbols). You cannot bless every sneeze.
Nor are the gods able or willing to track watch anyone whose clothes include things like anything purple, at least one emerald, etc. People who already have attention of deities due to working for them (especially representing them!), that's another matter. |
| Athreeren |
Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 08:14:58
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
How about we flip the question to the other side: would anyone want to wear anything that is associated with a specific god? Remember, the gods are real and interact with people. Would you WANT to gain the attention of Shar, Lolth, etc by wearing their associated symbol? If I lived in the Realms, I wouldn't. Only a fool draws the attention of the evil gods if you don't need something from them. You might offer a prayer to them to not affect your life but the average person would not want them to put their hand on their lives.
Based on that, if someone decides to wear something that could draw an evil god's attention, I wouldn't want them anywhere near me and I will have to assume they are in fact a worshipper of that god. Or a complete idiot.
As TBeholder mentioned, the item being powerful (with no curse) would be a good reason to hold on to it despite its aesthetics (although it might mark you as a target from that cult, if not from the god themselves). More generally, this makes me wonder about how people react to adventurers using their loot? Still in the Baldur's Gate series, it's possible in the previous game to craft an armour made of silver dragon scales, although the armour gives you a penalty to reaction checks, as you'd have to be clearly evil to kill such a good creature. But how would people know you did? Following this assumption, we'd have to believe that knights in shining armour are the worst of villains, who must have killed many paladins to get such a beautiful set, whereas someone whose every piece of equipment is devoted to a different evil god must be an upstanding member of the community (as far as murder-hoboes go)!
Some artefacts are well-known to be associated to a given hero, and if you're not them, people are going to assume you killed that hero before they think you might have killed the villain who first defeated them. But more generally, how should common folks, merchants and learned characters alike react to adventurers carrying items that are clearly good and/or evil? |
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