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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Nov 2021 : 19:50:11
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Hello there.
(Minor spoilers concerning the computer role-playing game Baldur's Gate III are below.)
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There is a moment when a hirable NPC explains that they are a servant of Shar; additionally, said individual wears iconography related to the Dark Lady. This is supposed to come across as a shocking(?) reveal, but it feels flat, because I was under the impression that Shar - being a Greater Deity and malevolent mover-and-shaker in the Realms - was known by just about anyone that hasn't elected to reside beneath a pebble. Let me ask you all, though...just how widespread is Shar's name/reputation among the laity of Faerun? To my way of thinking, if you were to utter "Shar" in, say, Mistledale or Damara, it would be little different from mentioning "Satan" in Oklahoma or Manchester: the basic character is understood even if the specifics are elusive.
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Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2021 : 22:57:21
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| I'd assume that greater gods are somewhat of a household name, so even if someone doesn't know what Shar or Bane or Cyric fully stand for, the basics are understood enough. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2021 : 01:41:03
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| -I would say yes, absolutely. There are proper, orthodox churches of Shar (think like among the Shadovar), but there are also standalone cults and groups of that nature (like the group from Mistress of the Night). Nihilists and people who have lost things that are angry and sad about those losses and those who are edgy and think they want to see nothingness but don't really mean it and all kinds of others. Deities get their power from, among other things, worship. All of those people in that second grouping, they are ripe for the picking and Shar's empowerment. Of course she is going to have mortal agents out there poking and prodding those generic people from every and all backgrounds into her worship to empower herself. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 15 Nov 2021 01:42:00 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2021 : 02:23:45
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The deities I would expect would weave their names into the fables of the realms as well as their use of dream visions. The histories of the realms at times also could mention Shar, an Avatar of Shar or a Follower (Priest,Cleric, Adept, etc. )of the deity.
In fact I expect no major deity could escape mention of in lore available to most people. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2021 : 03:50:24
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There were some interesting discussions on that particular character on some other forums. A lot of people seem to be of the opinion that her iconography is generic enough that her wearing a circlet a black disc on it isn't remarkable enough on its own to assume she follows Shar(the fact that she has other black discs on her armor, won't mention what she's a cleric of, and constantly disparages Selune I think tips it over into rather obvious territory though).
That got me thinking though-obviously our real life cultural norms are different from so some symbols might have different associations there-when is a black circle just a black circle, and when is it something to run away from really fast? Obviously if you see someone wearing a belt buckle in the shape of a skull surrounded by droplets, that can only mean Bhaal, but there are others that are more ambiguous. Like if you were to see a Drow wearing a broach in the shape of a spider, you can probably safely assume they follow the Spider Queen, but what about someone else, like a surface elf?
I bring this up because that whole conversation over Shadowheart got me thinking that there are a couple of holy symbols that I'm not sure I'd make the assumption automatically if someone was described as wearing them-but would a inhabitant of Toril? Suns, eyes, spiders, black discs, etc. Could easily be 'mundane' decorations, but would the inhabitants of toril assume so, or is that aforementioned elf wearing a spider broach about to get slapped in the face by one of their peers for their offensively provocative fashion sense? |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2021 : 16:34:05
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How about we flip the question to the other side: would anyone want to wear anything that is associated with a specific god? Remember, the gods are real and interact with people. Would you WANT to gain the attention of Shar, Lolth, etc by wearing their associated symbol? If I lived in the Realms, I wouldn't. Only a fool draws the attention of the evil gods if you don't need something from them. You might offer a prayer to them to not affect your life but the average person would not want them to put their hand on their lives.
Based on that, if someone decides to wear something that could draw an evil god's attention, I wouldn't want them anywhere near me and I will have to assume they are in fact a worshipper of that god. Or a complete idiot. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 15 Nov 2021 16:35:24 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2021 : 17:10:25
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| I think everyone knows about Shar. Oftentimes her worshipers are hidden due to the bad vibes. The bad vibes exist because people know about Shar. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2021 : 21:55:04
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Thank you - all of you - for the reassurance. Apparently, Larian wants the player to be surprised even though it doesn't make sense for the player's character to be thoroughly ignorant on the subject.
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
Like if you were to see a Drow wearing a broach in the shape of a spider, you can probably safely assume they follow the Spider Queen, but what about someone else, like a surface elf?
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or is that aforementioned elf wearing a spider broach about to get slapped in the face by one of their peers for their offensively provocative fashion sense?
It's akin to sporting a manji: expect dirty looks along with many accusations (and explanations to counter those accusations). The closer the likeness, the greater the grief. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 00:53:50
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So Shar has a more benign aspect as do many of the evil gods, so likely lay folk don't necessarily see all the evil gods of lacking a purpose. For example, Shar has a role in helping people forget their pain through her "darkcloaks" (see 2E's Warriors and Priests of the Realms). Is their a downside to not confronting your pain, absolutely, but is there a short term in benefit in doing so--certainly at times.
Similarly, Malar is the god of the hunt. Talos and Auril can prevent disaster (albeit its more like extortion), and so on. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 00:59:15
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Which is to say that while many of the evil gods evoke some trepidation, they aren't necessarily all viewed as complete bogeymen, but rather as part of reality that must be dealt with and if dealt with properly could be to one's benefit (albeit there could be risks that make it not worth it). Just like treating with hags can have its benefits at least in the short term.
Of course Shar will get you in the long run, but manipulating your pain into driving you deeper and deeper into her nihilistic outlook.
Ultimately, most of the evil gods should have something to offer the lay person, otherwise only crazy, power mad folk would ever worship them and there simply aren't enough of them. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 02:05:19
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I would expect Shar to be widely known as a name of a goddess. I would not expect the actual facts of what she gets up to as a villain to be widely known. So you might know her to be the Lady of Loss more generally, but she is still thoroughly evil. Probably suspect, but with a competent PR department to downplay the nastiness. Some of it anyway.
If you are referring to the cleric Shadowheart in BG3, though, I have noticed a lot of questionable things about her in what BG3 has presented so far, including that she has some sort of moonlight magic (which comes from her, and is likely a blessing of some sort), objects to Selune temple trashing, is very non-evil in her actions and approval/disapproval, and more generally is just a terrible Sharran. Im inclined to suspect, and I know there is a theory on it out there already, that she might actually be a Selunite priestess who has been mindwiped/gaslit into thinking Shar is her patron (or is influenced by the Dark Moon heresy). Datamined voice lines from the game files actually indicate that this may be the case and that her missing memories are because Sharrans wiped her mind. So there is that to consider. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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bloodtide_the_red
Learned Scribe
USA
302 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 02:30:21
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Shar is right at the middle of the Realms Creation Myth: so everyone knows that.
Huge masses of people follow the "do acts in darkness" and "secrets" part of Shar's spheres. About half are "evil", but the rest just fall under "neutral". The Realms (and you know Earth too..wink wink) are full of secret societies, elite social clubs and dark groups. Ed Greenwood portrays this nicely in books such as Cromyr and Waterdeep, but also see most of the Sembia books too.
Maybe the game was trying to make it a surprise that a follow of Shar would openly admit that they are one? I think most would keep that secret.
In general, a person won't wear anything they don't support or believe in (much like here on Earth). Sure, sometimes a person might somehow get something...but more often if you see someone with an Autobot Shield, a D20 or a quote like "Han shot first" you KNOW what they are a fan of.... |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 02:48:02
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quote:
Originally posted by AzarIt's akin to sporting a manji: expect dirty looks along with many accusations (and explanations to counter those accusations). The closer the likeness, the greater the grief.
Yeah, this This is kinda what I'd expect. I think some symbology is going to be more ambiguous. Stuff like skulls, suns, cats, spiders etc are associated with certain deities but could conceivably just be considered decoration (or at least plausibly claimed as such)
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
So Shar has a more benign aspect as do many of the evil gods, so likely lay folk don't necessarily see all the evil gods of lacking a purpose. For example, Shar has a role in helping people forget their pain through her "darkcloaks" (see 2E's Warriors and Priests of the Realms). Is their a downside to not confronting your pain, absolutely, but is there a short term in benefit in doing so--certainly at times.
Similarly, Malar is the god of the hunt. Talos and Auril can prevent disaster (albeit its more like extortion), and so on.
The character in question actually preaches a bit of that 'taking away your pain' sort of stuff to the player if you ask her about it. Though I wonder how much scrutiny an open or outed cleric of Shar could expect to face in most places, given their dual association with providing services that could be seen as beneficial and the more sinister and evil activities their clerics are perhaps infamous for.
Certainly wouldn't want to be mistaken for even a casual observer of certain deities like one of the Dead Three or Lloth etc in many places. I can't really think of any activities that followers of some deities could be associated with that people in most places would be OK with.
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 04:44:50
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On Earth, scotophobia/nyctophobia is one of the most common phobias. Furthermore, even otherwise well-adjusted people know better than to roam in the dark unless they have good reason. Now, take that universal concern (universal to humans, anyhow) and imagine that there's an actual goddess of darkness that participated in the formation of your world. Word around the hearth is that this entity "Shar" is evil or at least aloof; it makes sense that such a divine being would leave a distinct impression from adolescence onwards.
quote:
Originally posted by TKU
Yeah, this is kinda what I'd expect. I think some symbology is going to be more ambiguous. Stuff like skulls, suns, cats, spiders etc are associated with certain deities but could conceivably just be considered decoration (or at least plausibly claimed as such)
Well, you specifically mentioned "elf". "Elf plus spider jewelry" (even a non-dark elf) is going to garner more attention than "Human plus spider jewelry"  . |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 05:40:23
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Yeah, it occurred to me that might be an example where context might particularly matter. A human wizard having a spider familiar probably wouldn't be particularly noteworthy and make people assume some sort of association with that particular evil goddess any more than an association with Sharess might be assumed if they had a cat for a familiar. A surface elf though? Considering their history I can imagine something like that being seen as a bit eccentric, provocative, creepy, or even suspicious. Some context I think is important for some symbols which could be interpreted as religious in nature.
I think by itself Shadowheart's circlet with the black stone disc in it could be interpreted as relatively innocent if it weren't for (in addition to the circlet)
1)She's the cleric of an unknown deity.
2)She constantly mocks and disparages the goddess Selune and her followers every chance she gets.
3)Constantly acting like someone who has something to hide
4)Her name's *Shadowheart*
It certainly combines to paint a pretty suspicious picture.
So the reveal didn't really come off as shocking to me, and I imagine it wouldn't to a lot of people who were with her for any extended period of time. Whether it would be grounds for people to be deeply distrustful or avoid her from the get go, I guess that's another thing. I'd think Gale or Wyll would raise a bigger stink over her presence, but given that the adventuring party at that point also likely includes a vampire spawn and a bloodthirsty Githyanki at that point, she's hardly the standout among BG III's 'allies of convenience' |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 06:53:40
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quote:
Originally posted by TKU
Like if you were to see a Drow wearing a broach in the shape of a spider, you can probably safely assume they follow the Spider Queen, but what about someone else, like a surface elf?
Not necessarily. Spiders are entrenched in the drow aesthetics, not just related to their traditional theocracy. There's no reason why a drow would not wear it, unless belongs to a particularly spider-shunning faction (such as moondancers). More so if it's not purely decorative.
So the reasonable assumption would be that the item is drow-made, that's all.
In case of a surface elf, major possibilities are:
A. The item is drow made, and enchanted,
B. The elf is from somewhere they don't have problems with the Lolth-worshipping drow (such as Krynnspace). It still may be drow made, since the elf, in blissful ignorance, could just purchase a finely crafted accessory somewhere and subsequently ignore strange looks from encountered EIN personnel. 
C. The wearer is not really a surface elf, and whoever made that disguise was somewhat ill-informed as to what would be appropriate.
And on the subject of Lolth: isn't there her temple in Thay that applies mild selection pressure (obviously, zulkir-approved) to the local louts by luring them into Underdark, from where they don't return presumably due to being just fine down there? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Athreeren
Learned Scribe
144 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 08:14:58
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
How about we flip the question to the other side: would anyone want to wear anything that is associated with a specific god? Remember, the gods are real and interact with people. Would you WANT to gain the attention of Shar, Lolth, etc by wearing their associated symbol? If I lived in the Realms, I wouldn't. Only a fool draws the attention of the evil gods if you don't need something from them. You might offer a prayer to them to not affect your life but the average person would not want them to put their hand on their lives.
Based on that, if someone decides to wear something that could draw an evil god's attention, I wouldn't want them anywhere near me and I will have to assume they are in fact a worshipper of that god. Or a complete idiot.
As TBeholder mentioned, the item being powerful (with no curse) would be a good reason to hold on to it despite its aesthetics (although it might mark you as a target from that cult, if not from the god themselves). More generally, this makes me wonder about how people react to adventurers using their loot? Still in the Baldur's Gate series, it's possible in the previous game to craft an armour made of silver dragon scales, although the armour gives you a penalty to reaction checks, as you'd have to be clearly evil to kill such a good creature. But how would people know you did? Following this assumption, we'd have to believe that knights in shining armour are the worst of villains, who must have killed many paladins to get such a beautiful set, whereas someone whose every piece of equipment is devoted to a different evil god must be an upstanding member of the community (as far as murder-hoboes go)!
Some artefacts are well-known to be associated to a given hero, and if you're not them, people are going to assume you killed that hero before they think you might have killed the villain who first defeated them. But more generally, how should common folks, merchants and learned characters alike react to adventurers carrying items that are clearly good and/or evil? |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 09:07:19
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
How about we flip the question to the other side: would anyone want to wear anything that is associated with a specific god? Remember, the gods are real and interact with people. Would you WANT to gain the attention of Shar, Lolth, etc by wearing their associated symbol? If I lived in the Realms, I wouldn't.
The problem is, there are many deities, and all have a list of various stuff "associated with" them, so taken in bulk, there's far too much of that. Inevitably including very common and/or overlapping elements.
Spiders became common for the drow, most colors are fairly common everywhere respective dyes are affordable (with a few local exceptions, like specific shades of red in Thay), more or less depending on current fashion.
Thus there would be far too many things to care about or even remember (short of holy symbols). You cannot bless every sneeze. 
Nor are the gods able or willing to track watch anyone whose clothes include things like anything purple, at least one emerald, etc. People who already have attention of deities due to working for them (especially representing them!), that's another matter. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 15:36:09
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Which is to say that while many of the evil gods evoke some trepidation, they aren't necessarily all viewed as complete bogeymen, but rather as part of reality that must be dealt with and if dealt with properly could be to one's benefit (albeit there could be risks that make it not worth it). Just like treating with hags can have its benefits at least in the short term.
Of course Shar will get you in the long run, but manipulating your pain into driving you deeper and deeper into her nihilistic outlook.
Ultimately, most of the evil gods should have something to offer the lay person, otherwise only crazy, power mad folk would ever worship them and there simply aren't enough of them.
I would think it would depend on the area. In a location with a temple to Selune, the Selunites would know of Shar's manipulative nature and include warnings about it in their services. It would then spread a bit given that people will talk about what they have heard. In that case, at least some portion of the population would be concerned if some Sharites showed up. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 16:34:24
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
How about we flip the question to the other side: would anyone want to wear anything that is associated with a specific god? Remember, the gods are real and interact with people. Would you WANT to gain the attention of Shar, Lolth, etc by wearing their associated symbol? If I lived in the Realms, I wouldn't.
The problem is, there are many deities, and all have a list of various stuff "associated with" them, so taken in bulk, there's far too much of that. Inevitably including very common and/or overlapping elements.
Spiders became common for the drow, most colors are fairly common everywhere respective dyes are affordable (with a few local exceptions, like specific shades of red in Thay), more or less depending on current fashion.
Thus there would be far too many things to care about or even remember (short of holy symbols). You cannot bless every sneeze.
Nor are the gods able or willing to track watch anyone whose clothes include things like anything purple, at least one emerald, etc. People who already have attention of deities due to working for them (especially representing them!), that's another matter.
I agree. This would not be about something associated with a particular god other then their symbol. Just because you have a diamond doesn't mean that Segojan is going to be hanging on your every word. But, if you have something that substantially resembles a god's symbol, the god may know about it.
Here is a related example from canon: a mage's sigil. Mystra knows if anyone tries to use a mage's sigil other than the mage themselves and will take immediate action against the individual. If she can do that for stuff that isn't even her own symbol, gods should be able to detect someone using their own symbol in any context. The true test is just how much the depiction resembles the actual divine symbol. It would also depend if the individual was doing something that might draw the god's attention. But, is any chance, no matter how small, worth the risk? |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 17:46:25
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[/quote]The character in question actually preaches a bit of that 'taking away your pain' sort of stuff to the player if you ask her about it. Though I wonder how much scrutiny an open or outed cleric of Shar could expect to face in most places, given their dual association with providing services that could be seen as beneficial and the more sinister and evil activities their clerics are perhaps infamous for.
Certainly wouldn't want to be mistaken for even a casual observer of
[/quote] certain deities like one of the Dead Three or Lloth etc in many places. I can't really think of any activities that followers of some deities could be associated with that people in most places would be OK with.
I agree it depends a bit on where you are too (Waterdeep is almost certainly less tolerant of Sharrans, as is Cormyr, even seemingly benign ones given their favoring of Selune and history with Sharrans. That said, I seemingly benign Sharran might be able to overcome such concerns with some persuasion.
And yep that some gods don't seem to have a benevolent aspect. Cyric and Bhaal come to mind, but Bane could be seen as the better of worlds, authority over chaos. Myrkul has a key role to play in the afterlife. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2021 : 19:37:58
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
In case of a surface elf, major possibilities are:
A. The item is drow made, and enchanted,
B. The elf is from somewhere they don't have problems with the Lolth-worshipping drow (such as Krynnspace). It still may be drow made, since the elf, in blissful ignorance, could just purchase a finely crafted accessory somewhere and subsequently ignore strange looks from encountered EIN personnel.
C. The wearer is not really a surface elf, and whoever made that disguise was somewhat ill-informed as to what would be appropriate.
The elf may be a druid of Rillifane Rallathil (i.e., a caretaker of all animals), but, even so, I imagine there's strong cultural motivation to distance one's self from spiders. At least two elfish Specialty Priests are built - in part - for combatting the eight-legged menaces; attitudes in elven communities are clearly skewed against arachnids.
quote:
Originally posted by Athreeren
As TBeholder mentioned, the item being powerful (with no curse) would be a good reason to hold on to it despite its aesthetics (although it might mark you as a target from that cult, if not from the god themselves).
Unless the armor in question requires line-of-sight to work its magic, throw on a voluminous cloak or robe for Pete's sake. |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2021 : 08:42:31
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Either way, when people have a good reason to really care about it first. But that's very specific and situational.
Deities whose obvious followers are remembered, sure. Dalesmen and Mooneyes probably remember Bane's symbolism all too well, since they had troubles with Zhents for a long while.
Being an entrenched and disturbing part of one's mythology helps. Such as Lolth for the elves in whose heads she occupies a rent-free corner (hmm, does this count as... faith?), sure.
Likewise, many Calishites (at least in Calimport) probably remember about Shar, since her priesthood is a major part of local history, even if others overshadowed her more recently.
There are only a few "always relevant" deities in each specific case to be remembered, whether as hostile or as benevolent.
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
But, if you have something that substantially resembles a god's symbol, the god may know about it.
IIRC, automatic awareness is for their own name and titles only, and even then somewhat limited (then they filter out most of this anyway).
quote:
Here is a related example from canon: a mage's sigil. Mystra knows if anyone tries to use a mage's sigil other than the mage themselves and will take immediate action against the individual. If she can do that for stuff that isn't even her own symbol, gods should be able to detect someone using their own symbol in any context.
It's a deliberate act by the most powerful local deity, tracking and protecting her assets and potential headaches. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 17 Nov 2021 08:43:57 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2021 : 09:18:14
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Likewise, many Calishites (at least in Calimport) probably remember about Shar, since her priesthood is a major part of local history, even if others overshadowed her more recently.
Awesome pun . |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2021 : 14:18:25
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Yeah, the greater goddess of night and dark should be pretty well-known to just about anyone. I mean, there's a night every single day most places; a placatory prayer to Shar for the dangerous things that go around in the dark to overlook you should be routine from almost everyone pretty much every day.
On Lolth, I much prefer the Realms status quo as of Ed Greenwood's October 1981 Dragon article "Down-to-earth Divinity", where pretty much nobody on the surface knows anything about drow/dark elves, but they do have a nodding acquaintance with Lolth, since she's the goddess of spiders, and there are plenty of spiders around. You probably want to send her a prayer of placation when you squish one by accident, but you're definitely going to look at someone who makes regular devotions to Lolth as a really odd duck. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2021 : 15:56:31
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quote:
Originally posted by see
Yeah, the greater goddess of night and dark should be pretty well-known to just about anyone. I mean, there's a night every single day most places; a placatory prayer to Shar for the dangerous things that go around in the dark to overlook you should be routine from almost everyone pretty much every day.
On Lolth, I much prefer the Realms status quo as of Ed Greenwood's October 1981 Dragon article "Down-to-earth Divinity", where pretty much nobody on the surface knows anything about drow/dark elves, but they do have a nodding acquaintance with Lolth, since she's the goddess of spiders, and there are plenty of spiders around. You probably want to send her a prayer of placation when you squish one by accident, but you're definitely going to look at someone who makes regular devotions to Lolth as a really odd duck.
The insane popularity of Lord Ginsu ended that idea. |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2021 : 18:53:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by see
Yeah, the greater goddess of night and dark should be pretty well-known to just about anyone. I mean, there's a night every single day most places; a placatory prayer to Shar for the dangerous things that go around in the dark to overlook you should be routine from almost everyone pretty much every day.
On Lolth, I much prefer the Realms status quo as of Ed Greenwood's October 1981 Dragon article "Down-to-earth Divinity", where pretty much nobody on the surface knows anything about drow/dark elves, but they do have a nodding acquaintance with Lolth, since she's the goddess of spiders, and there are plenty of spiders around. You probably want to send her a prayer of placation when you squish one by accident, but you're definitely going to look at someone who makes regular devotions to Lolth as a really odd duck.
The insane popularity of Lord Ginsu ended that idea.
There are days when I feel that appellation was so given because he eventually got under your skin...like a ginsu knife . |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2021 : 20:44:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Azar
There are days when I feel that appellation was so given because he eventually got under your skin...like a ginsu knife .
It's not the character, it's the hype. I've been bored with the character for a long time -- but WotC kept slapping him on everything, making sure he was constantly front and center, in order to cater to those fans that think the entire setting is just that one person. Between the rabid fanbase and WotC's antics in keeping them stirred up, I feel like that particular market was over-saturated a long time ago.
There are other factors, here, but a large one is that when there is something I don't want to be a part of and yet there's so much hype that I can't escape it, it makes for a much stronger desire to avoid the object of that hype. I'm still avoiding the movie Titanic, for example, because of that accursed song and all the people that said "Oh, I wasn't interested, either, but I went and saw it anyway and it was really good, so you should go see it!" |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2021 : 16:05:58
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| -It's okay. It wasn't good, it wasn't bad, it just was, but it's definitely not worth being the top grossing movie in history for a decade or however exactly long it was on top. Not missing anything by not seeing it lol. |
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Edited by - Lord Karsus on 19 Nov 2021 16:06:24 |
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Azar
Master of Realmslore
1309 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2021 : 19:51:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
There are days when I feel that appellation was so given because he eventually got under your skin...like a ginsu knife .
It's not the character, it's the hype. I've been bored with the character for a long time -- but WotC kept slapping him on everything, making sure he was constantly front and center, in order to cater to those fans that think the entire setting is just that one person. Between the rabid fanbase and WotC's antics in keeping them stirred up, I feel like that particular market was over-saturated a long time ago.
I still enjoy the first three "official" Drizzt novels (Homeland, Exile and Sojourn) and his Icewind Dale trilogy debut is pretty good, but after those...the quality of Salvatore's Forgotten Realms' creations begins to fluctuate like a roller coaster.
Devils's advocate: if a product is going to do the heavy lifting in order to keep The Forgotten Realms popular among a wider customer base, would you rather it be Slashy McScimitars or Magic: The Gathering?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are other factors, here, but a large one is that when there is something I don't want to be a part of and yet there's so much hype that I can't escape it, it makes for a much stronger desire to avoid the object of that hype. I'm still avoiding the movie Titanic, for example, because of that accursed song and all the people that said "Oh, I wasn't interested, either, but I went and saw it anyway and it was really good, so you should go see it!"
I too have yet to watch Titanic, but not because of any special aversion; there are many highly-rated/highly-praised films (some of them seminal works) that I simply haven't gotten around to watching.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-It's okay. It wasn't good, it wasn't bad, it just was, but it's definitely not worth being the top grossing movie in history for a decade or however exactly long it was on top. Not missing anything by not seeing it lol.
For a split second, I thought you were talking about Shar. Then, I read "movie" and said (in my head) "Oh."  . |
Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.
Earth names in the Realms are more common than you may think. |
Edited by - Azar on 19 Nov 2021 20:30:11 |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2021 : 20:21:53
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Titanic was a decent enough movie IMO, but I'd have to echo some of the sentiments that it was nowhere near good enough to warrant the attention it got. It kinda got seized on and the snowball just got rolling on it though. A good example of how popularity doesn't automatically equate to quality IMO-although that association *does* get made quite a lot. Got plenty of memories of getting dragged to a lot of awful movies by my friends because it was the next big blockbuster or whatever.
quote:
Devils's advocate: if a product is going to do the heavy lifting in order to keep The Forgotten Realms popular among a wider customer base, would you rather it be Slashy McScimitars or Magic: The Gathering?
Funny you mention that, once upon a time Magic the Gathering had a burgeoning novel line of its own, in addition to some tentative forays into other mediums like comic books and video games. Like WotC did to the D&D novel lines, the same happened to MTG. Like with D&D, my impression is that the card game suffered for this decision.
Both IPs could have had healthy, sustaining material outside of the games themselves, but wotc is gonna make the decisions they are gonna make, I guess...
But to get back to the original topic, It looks to me like the big takeaway is that context matters a lot. Someone like Shadowheart may or may not even be particularly obvious followers of a deity depending on a number of factors-I mentioned the ambiguity of some symbolism previously. And certain groups/places might be more inclined to have strong opinions about or even know much about certain deities, their followers, or the religious practices associated with them. Maybe some locals or the clergy of a deity opposed to Shar might petition to get someone like Shadowheart thrown out of a city if she's recognized for what she is, but otherwise might just be 'watched' by the guard and/or other parties, possibly asked to answer a few questions about their business in the city, etc. But not necessarily jailed on sight like a cleric of Bhaal or Cyric etc.
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Edited by - TKU on 19 Nov 2021 20:22:44 |
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Does the average layman know of Shar?
