| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Azar |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 05:49:32
Hello hello.
I remember someone here (Wooly Rupert, maybe?) talking about Moander and how it is best used as a threat via a possible resurrection...the impetus for a quest to stop evil...as opposed to an actual active malefactor. That got me thinking: what other elements of the Realms are best left/used as forever potentialities? Most of these prospects are - I assume - detrimental to civilization, but it is certainly possible that at least a few lofty goals are effectively impossible to realize yet are still worth striving towards. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Apr 2021 : 00:55:14
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
The BEST part about deities, IMO, is that they really can be whatever the DM wants them to be and in terms of what ppl know, it really is speculative.
Yep. Especially if you go back in time and want to have some fun with them. For instance, if "Amaunator" were two deities originally (Amon-Ra and At'ar), and were husband and wife.... but maybe Amaunator tried to absorb his wife. By this, I would say that Amon-Ra was Ra from the Mulhorandi pantheon forcing his way into the Netherese pantheon. Maybe she turned on him, and offered herself to Kozah if he would destroy her husband (as well as another potential rival in Utu), and Kozah offered to sponsor Gruumsh into this world via his orc priests in the orcgate war. Thus was Ra killed and his "aspect" as Amon-Ra becomes a vestige. At'ar may have continued on using their combined name of Amaunator. Then Lathander pulled further shenanigans.
That's a great take on the lore there, I might be definitely stealing that 
Steal away. It does nicely tie in the whole Gruumsh/Talos "ties" that have been mentioned, though via Kozah instead. There might even be some linkage in this involvement as to why "Kozah" with two eyes becomes "Talos" with one eye (some form of sacrifice to give godly power?) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Apr 2021 : 00:52:04
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Qilintha
To remain in topic: Always fascinated by the Imaskari and Jhaamadth, a real shame it's always Netheril when there have been two others incredibly magic powerful empires in the history of Faerun that we know...almost nothing about.
I have a particular fascination with Jhaamdath, myself.
I'd love to find out that somewhere on Toril there was a Jhaamdathi equivalent of Halruaa -- a group of psionicists decided they didn't like the direction the nation was going in, and found themselves a new home, elsewhere, where they have quietly lived ever since.
I really liked the idea that the massive terrain changes to the Vilhon Wilds exposed Jhaamdathi ruins that somehow awakened the psionic potential of folks nearby. The shardminds also felt like a natural fit, for some kind of lost created race.
The theory that 4e floated about psionic abilities (that their manifestation was, in part, an "immune response" from reality to resist aberrations) made the nearby threat of aboleths seem extra fun paired wih it.
That's an interesting idea.... almost like "mutants" with psionics is caused by some kind of "radiation"..... perhaps from a udoxias that awakens it... and maybe people don't truly understand exactly what a udoxias did. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 27 Apr 2021 : 14:42:21
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
The BEST part about deities, IMO, is that they really can be whatever the DM wants them to be and in terms of what ppl know, it really is speculative.
Yep. Especially if you go back in time and want to have some fun with them. For instance, if "Amaunator" were two deities originally (Amon-Ra and At'ar), and were husband and wife.... but maybe Amaunator tried to absorb his wife. By this, I would say that Amon-Ra was Ra from the Mulhorandi pantheon forcing his way into the Netherese pantheon. Maybe she turned on him, and offered herself to Kozah if he would destroy her husband (as well as another potential rival in Utu), and Kozah offered to sponsor Gruumsh into this world via his orc priests in the orcgate war. Thus was Ra killed and his "aspect" as Amon-Ra becomes a vestige. At'ar may have continued on using their combined name of Amaunator. Then Lathander pulled further shenanigans.
That's a great take on the lore there, I might be definitely stealing that |
| Azar |
Posted - 26 Apr 2021 : 06:10:29
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
Tying into all this Amaunator talk, I really was enamored with the idea of Shadovar nobles being drawn away from Shar by their ancestral sun god's return; the idea of some decadent evil princeling becoming a "heretic" of light and justice is just the right kind of cheesy for me.
(I never liked Lathandar; sue me!)
Lathander forgives you  . |
| keftiu |
Posted - 26 Apr 2021 : 05:28:24
Tying into all this Amaunator talk, I really was enamored with the idea of Shadovar nobles being drawn away from Shar by their ancestral sun god's return; the idea of some decadent evil princeling becoming a "heretic" of light and justice is just the right kind of cheesy for me.
(I never liked Lathandar; sue me!) |
| keftiu |
Posted - 26 Apr 2021 : 05:25:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Qilintha
To remain in topic: Always fascinated by the Imaskari and Jhaamadth, a real shame it's always Netheril when there have been two others incredibly magic powerful empires in the history of Faerun that we know...almost nothing about.
I have a particular fascination with Jhaamdath, myself.
I'd love to find out that somewhere on Toril there was a Jhaamdathi equivalent of Halruaa -- a group of psionicists decided they didn't like the direction the nation was going in, and found themselves a new home, elsewhere, where they have quietly lived ever since.
I really liked the idea that the massive terrain changes to the Vilhon Wilds exposed Jhaamdathi ruins that somehow awakened the psionic potential of folks nearby. The shardminds also felt like a natural fit, for some kind of lost created race.
The theory that 4e floated about psionic abilities (that their manifestation was, in part, an "immune response" from reality to resist aberrations) made the nearby threat of aboleths seem extra fun paired wih it. |
| Azar |
Posted - 26 Apr 2021 : 01:20:52
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The issue is that those three are all different pantheons. In the Faerūnian pantheon, having Lathander and Amaunator both is redundant.
Helm, Tyr, and Torm are all pretty much redundant - despite slightly different bents on Lawfulness and Knighthood.
Eldath, Silvanus, Mielikki, Lurue.....all kinda Redundant since they're just different aspects of nature and Forest dwellers.
Redundant deities with only a slight difference in ethos and alignment are sort of the Forgotten Realms wheelhouse
Things become different more when its a god of an "object" versus an "idea". Ideas can be melded more where "I'm the god of this aspect of knowledge, death, destruction, etc....). When it's "the sun" having another god of "the sun" becomes problematic in the same pantheon. However, stating what they're responsible for CAN change that up some (i.e. a god of light versus a god of "the sun"). I think that's where a lot of folks (including myself) were seeing more of a problem. The idea that there might be a god of the "orderly nature of the sun" and another god who is "the god of bright beginnings" and another god who is "the god of the dying of the light, spreading of shadow" or some other variations that focuses on them being a "sun god" in a different way.... I'd find that more palatable, but they need to be presented that way. It can't be that "and Lathander has complete control of the sun" if that's the case.
It's a bit overkill to be honest. I mean splitting hairs and creating a god for each little thing is just too much.
This is realistic, actually. If anything, there may be too FEW gods in the Forgotten Realms (taking into account how there are more sapient species/races than just "Human").
quote:
Originally posted by deserk
Isn't also the idea of a "Faerunian" pantheon more a game design thing (make it comprehensive for PCs and players), rather than a concept Faerunians believe in? Not all gods are worshipped everywhere after all, and many areas have their own regional pantheons and regional interpretations that differ a bit from the orthodoxy (Zionel/Gond, Curna/Oghma, Lucha/Selune in the Shining Lands, Bhalla/Chauntea, Khelliara/Mielikki, the Hidden One/Mystra in Rashemen, etc.)
So yeah, I don't see any problem with Amaunator existing as a separate deity to Lathander. It could be quite interesting, they could be rival priesthoods to each other, a bit similar to the relationship of the clergy of Tempus and Garagos (both of whom are gods of war).
The situation becomes even fuzzier when you consider that races can worship gods outside their respective racial pantheons and even receive spells in return. Faiths and Avatars - for example - explicitly makes mention of elves becoming Specialty Priests of Sune (she is typically regarded as a "human god"). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Apr 2021 : 22:35:01
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
The BEST part about deities, IMO, is that they really can be whatever the DM wants them to be and in terms of what ppl know, it really is speculative.
Yep. Especially if you go back in time and want to have some fun with them. For instance, if "Amaunator" were two deities originally (Amon-Ra and At'ar), and were husband and wife.... but maybe Amaunator tried to absorb his wife. By this, I would say that Amon-Ra was Ra from the Mulhorandi pantheon forcing his way into the Netherese pantheon. Maybe she turned on him, and offered herself to Kozah if he would destroy her husband (as well as another potential rival in Utu), and Kozah offered to sponsor Gruumsh into this world via his orc priests in the orcgate war. Thus was Ra killed and his "aspect" as Amon-Ra becomes a vestige. At'ar may have continued on using their combined name of Amaunator. Then Lathander pulled further shenanigans. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 25 Apr 2021 : 20:22:06
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Isn't that the premise of the whole Three-Faced Heresy, that Lathander (Dawn), Amaunator (Day), Myrkul (Dusk) were one in the same but simple showed variations of itself? I'm not saying it IS that way, but it's an intriguing concept in terms of drama being played out in the setting.
When you look at the ideals, beliefs, and concepts of both Amaunator and Lathander- they're quite different. Sure they both symboliz the Sun but Lathander puts far more emphasis on dawn, rebirth, new beginnings, enlightenment, etc. Amaunator is far more stern, advocating for kept promises, contracts, and even that political order be kept among the gods. I mean, ones NG and the other LN in Alignment.
I've always strongly disliked that Three-Faced sun god idea. Why do different times of day get different deities, but different lunar phases don't? If we're covering different times of day, what about a deity of midnight and another one for just before dawn? If it's all one deity, how can multiple faces be active at the same time? How does the cycle go Good-Neutral-Evil and then back to Good, without any transition? And with Myrkul and Lathander both being younger, this three-faced thing means there was only one face for a long time, and then that one face for some reason decided it was better to split into three.
It was my understanding that Myrkul was a Netherese deity too, so both of them existed at the same time? I could he wrong tho. But I could certainly see Selūne as a worship of the Moon in the many phases where she is seen and Shar worshipped as the Dark Moon aspect where the moon is obfuscated in Shadow. Or at least a Heresy that pushes that belief. Again, I'm not saying it's right but who's the "true" moon goddess? Selūne or Sehanine Moonbow? Are they one in the same? Are they like Talos and Gruumsh, same deity with different faces to attract more followers?
The BEST part about deities, IMO, is that they really can be whatever the DM wants them to be and in terms of what ppl know, it really is speculative.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
To me, it's another of those things that is simply more effort than it's worth to try to make sense of it.
At that point, just use what the books say and go off that, as the work is mostly done for you. Amaunator in 3.5 is a "dead power" that some people can still draw from, as seen in the feat Servant of the Fallen from Lost Empires of Faerūn. Enough ppl take that or join his cause and suddenly, he's not "Fallen" anymore. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Apr 2021 : 19:21:30
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Isn't that the premise of the whole Three-Faced Heresy, that Lathander (Dawn), Amaunator (Day), Myrkul (Dusk) were one in the same but simple showed variations of itself? I'm not saying it IS that way, but it's an intriguing concept in terms of drama being played out in the setting.
When you look at the ideals, beliefs, and concepts of both Amaunator and Lathander- they're quite different. Sure they both symboliz the Sun but Lathander puts far more emphasis on dawn, rebirth, new beginnings, enlightenment, etc. Amaunator is far more stern, advocating for kept promises, contracts, and even that political order be kept among the gods. I mean, ones NG and the other LN in Alignment.
I've always strongly disliked that Three-Faced sun god idea. Why do different times of day get different deities, but different lunar phases don't? If we're covering different times of day, what about a deity of midnight and another one for just before dawn? If it's all one deity, how can multiple faces be active at the same time? How does the cycle go Good-Neutral-Evil and then back to Good, without any transition? And with Myrkul and Lathander both being younger, this three-faced thing means there was only one face for a long time, and then that one face for some reason decided it was better to split into three.
To me, it's another of those things that is simply more effort than it's worth to try to make sense of it. |
| deserk |
Posted - 25 Apr 2021 : 18:36:33
Isn't also the idea of a "Faerunian" pantheon more a game design thing (make it comprehensive for PCs and players), rather than a concept Faerunians believe in? Not all gods are worshipped everywhere after all, and many areas have their own regional pantheons and regional interpretations that differ a bit from the orthodoxy (Zionel/Gond, Curna/Oghma, Lucha/Selune in the Shining Lands, Bhalla/Chauntea, Khelliara/Mielikki, the Hidden One/Mystra in Rashemen, etc.)
So yeah, I don't see any problem with Amaunator existing as a separate deity to Lathander. It could be quite interesting, they could be rival priesthoods to each other, a bit similar to the relationship of the clergy of Tempus and Garagos (both of whom are gods of war). |
| Diffan |
Posted - 25 Apr 2021 : 17:10:33
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Things become different more when its a god of an "object" versus an "idea". Ideas can be melded more where "I'm the god of this aspect of knowledge, death, destruction, etc....). When it's "the sun" having another god of "the sun" becomes problematic in the same pantheon. However, stating what they're responsible for CAN change that up some (i.e. a god of light versus a god of "the sun"). I think that's where a lot of folks (including myself) were seeing more of a problem. The idea that there might be a god of the "orderly nature of the sun" and another god who is "the god of bright beginnings" and another god who is "the god of the dying of the light, spreading of shadow" or some other variations that focuses on them being a "sun god" in a different way.... I'd find that more palatable, but they need to be presented that way. It can't be that "and Lathander has complete control of the sun" if that's the case.
Isn't that the premise of the whole Three-Faced Heresy, that Lathander (Dawn), Amaunator (Day), Myrkul (Dusk) were one in the same but simple showed variations of itself? I'm not saying it IS that way, but it's an intriguing concept in terms of drama being played out in the setting.
When you look at the ideals, beliefs, and concepts of both Amaunator and Lathander- they're quite different. Sure they both symboliz the Sun but Lathander puts far more emphasis on dawn, rebirth, new beginnings, enlightenment, etc. Amaunator is far more stern, advocating for kept promises, contracts, and even that political order be kept among the gods. I mean, ones NG and the other LN in Alignment. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Apr 2021 : 17:03:54
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The issue is that those three are all different pantheons. In the Faerūnian pantheon, having Lathander and Amaunator both is redundant.
Helm, Tyr, and Torm are all pretty much redundant - despite slightly different bents on Lawfulness and Knighthood.
Eldath, Silvanus, Mielikki, Lurue.....all kinda Redundant since they're just different aspects of nature and Forest dwellers.
Redundant deities with only a slight difference in ethos and alignment are sort of the Forgotten Realms wheelhouse
Things become different more when its a god of an "object" versus an "idea". Ideas can be melded more where "I'm the god of this aspect of knowledge, death, destruction, etc....). When it's "the sun" having another god of "the sun" becomes problematic in the same pantheon. However, stating what they're responsible for CAN change that up some (i.e. a god of light versus a god of "the sun"). I think that's where a lot of folks (including myself) were seeing more of a problem. The idea that there might be a god of the "orderly nature of the sun" and another god who is "the god of bright beginnings" and another god who is "the god of the dying of the light, spreading of shadow" or some other variations that focuses on them being a "sun god" in a different way.... I'd find that more palatable, but they need to be presented that way. It can't be that "and Lathander has complete control of the sun" if that's the case.
It's a bit overkill to be honest. I mean splitting hairs and creating a god for each little thing is just too much.
And yet, look at our real world pagan religions from long ago, many of which had hundreds of gods. Heck, look at our real world religions based purely on the "god of the jewish people" and how its splintered into probably more than 100 variants but mostly around the same core concept.
Bear in mind that just because they exist doesn't mean that each god is actively worshipped in every community. Some communities might not have even have heard of some of the gods (outside from the more learned scholars, priests, etc.... who study religion). It could be something LIKE where in the north they primarily worship Lathander, the south areas like Halruaa might favor Amaunator, and areas like Calimshan might see a place for both religions |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 25 Apr 2021 : 15:16:17
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The issue is that those three are all different pantheons. In the Faerūnian pantheon, having Lathander and Amaunator both is redundant.
Helm, Tyr, and Torm are all pretty much redundant - despite slightly different bents on Lawfulness and Knighthood.
Eldath, Silvanus, Mielikki, Lurue.....all kinda Redundant since they're just different aspects of nature and Forest dwellers.
Redundant deities with only a slight difference in ethos and alignment are sort of the Forgotten Realms wheelhouse
Things become different more when its a god of an "object" versus an "idea". Ideas can be melded more where "I'm the god of this aspect of knowledge, death, destruction, etc....). When it's "the sun" having another god of "the sun" becomes problematic in the same pantheon. However, stating what they're responsible for CAN change that up some (i.e. a god of light versus a god of "the sun"). I think that's where a lot of folks (including myself) were seeing more of a problem. The idea that there might be a god of the "orderly nature of the sun" and another god who is "the god of bright beginnings" and another god who is "the god of the dying of the light, spreading of shadow" or some other variations that focuses on them being a "sun god" in a different way.... I'd find that more palatable, but they need to be presented that way. It can't be that "and Lathander has complete control of the sun" if that's the case.
It's a bit overkill to be honest. I mean splitting hairs and creating a god for each little thing is just too much. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Apr 2021 : 14:45:59
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The issue is that those three are all different pantheons. In the Faerūnian pantheon, having Lathander and Amaunator both is redundant.
Helm, Tyr, and Torm are all pretty much redundant - despite slightly different bents on Lawfulness and Knighthood.
Eldath, Silvanus, Mielikki, Lurue.....all kinda Redundant since they're just different aspects of nature and Forest dwellers.
Redundant deities with only a slight difference in ethos and alignment are sort of the Forgotten Realms wheelhouse
Things become different more when its a god of an "object" versus an "idea". Ideas can be melded more where "I'm the god of this aspect of knowledge, death, destruction, etc....). When it's "the sun" having another god of "the sun" becomes problematic in the same pantheon. However, stating what they're responsible for CAN change that up some (i.e. a god of light versus a god of "the sun"). I think that's where a lot of folks (including myself) were seeing more of a problem. The idea that there might be a god of the "orderly nature of the sun" and another god who is "the god of bright beginnings" and another god who is "the god of the dying of the light, spreading of shadow" or some other variations that focuses on them being a "sun god" in a different way.... I'd find that more palatable, but they need to be presented that way. It can't be that "and Lathander has complete control of the sun" if that's the case. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 25 Apr 2021 : 14:10:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The issue is that those three are all different pantheons. In the Faerūnian pantheon, having Lathander and Amaunator both is redundant.
Helm, Tyr, and Torm are all pretty much redundant - despite slightly different bents on Lawfulness and Knighthood.
Eldath, Silvanus, Mielikki, Lurue.....all kinda Redundant since they're just different aspects of nature and Forest dwellers.
Redundant deities with only a slight difference in ethos and alignment are sort of the Forgotten Realms wheelhouse |
| Azar |
Posted - 25 Apr 2021 : 11:07:50
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
A pre-4e/5e idea I have in mind is the possible need to resurrect Amaunator. There are three moon-based goddesses (Selune, Sehanine Moonbow and Eilistraee)...so why not two sun gods  ?
The issue is that those three are all different pantheons. In the Faerūnian pantheon, having Lathander and Amaunator both is redundant.
Though I'd not have an issue with another sun god in another pantheon.
There's a thought: Amaunator reborn in a dwarven or halfling mold because of a calamity among either race that necessitates the presence of an orderly sun god.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll just slip into my devil's advocate suit...
I don't believe that the idea of Amaunator and Lathander functioning in the same pantheon is too wild to consider. In much the same way Oghma is the general god of knowledge and Deneir is more-or-less the god focused on the written word, Amaunator would be concerned with the overall importance of the sun while Lathander champions the dawn. With this change in the primary pantheon, Lathander remains an optimistic, friendly and good deity; however, he would also be the itinerant positive "face" of all things solar. Of course, Lathander may be reduced to an "Intermediate" or even "Lesser" deific status to compensate for the return of a related divine power.
My games are 2e-based and so Amaunator is dead by default. I only offer this suggestion because I think it can work if a DM puts in the effort to make it fit. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Apr 2021 : 05:41:26
Mayhaps we can find our way back to the topic? |
| Diffan |
Posted - 25 Apr 2021 : 05:22:18
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I've been playing D&D since 1985 and I've never had anyone ask why such and such NPC didn't handle things. I think this is over exaggerated and a poor excuse.
Cool? Congratulations? Obviously the designers at that time DID feel this was an issue or received feedback making it appear so.... |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 25 Apr 2021 : 02:08:54
quote:
Originally posted by Qilintha
I am sorry but your reasoning is just wrong.
Not my reasoning, my player's reasoning. My only problem was to find belivable explanations for why Drizzt Do'Urden wasn't saving Neverwinter when the NCS says he has a camp in Castle Never...
And sure, cops are there to deal with regular criminals (kobolds), not to deal with Lex Luthor or Darkseid...
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
D&D isn't a comicbook so your logic doesn't hold any water. Unless any NPC in the Forgotten Realms is somehow a real being that has the ability to place itself in all of your adventures against your wishes your reasoning is rubbish. Now someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I can't recall an adventure saying this can't be completed unless Elminster does it for you. As a DM you have the power to use these NPC's anyway you want. Your adventures do no affect the overall canon of the world so why does it matter? 1st and 2nd edition had everything spot on as to how the lore should be written but that was all undone and then half arsed replaced by 2 editions.
Oh, sure, there is no adventure saying that Elminster must save the world. There are players, however, feeling that their immersion is broken when this Good NPC is not present saving the world, when he is more powerful than any of them. They are Good guys, is their responsibility to save the world. Or at least, that's what my players think. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 25 Apr 2021 : 01:46:33
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Why to fix something when the equivalent of the Justice League exist in this world? Like, yes, the players can kill a bunch of kobolds, but for stuff like the demon princes, the Shade, Tiamat, the not-Huns, etc., the burden is for Elminster and friends. Why sent a bunch of lv. 10 adventures to deal with Orcus when Elminster, Drizz't and the others are like lv. 40 or something, Chosen of the gods and whatnot? Is really a joke to do so. Or so my players say.
The problems is in their minds, I guess. But the fact that WotC officially killed or weakened the NPCs was reassuring for them. They now know why sent those lv. 10 adventures: there are no other high leveled guys around.
I get what you're saying and to me, it does make sense. I think a LOT of this comes from the over-saturation of NPCs during 3e/3.5 reign where we're given levels and stats of just about every single person mentioned from your small 70 person Thorpe to your thousands of people in Waterdeep.
When you have to go out of your way as to explain why X, Y, and Z person isn't there dealing with this threat when they have just as must or more stake in the area, it might become problematic.
I've been playing D&D since 1985 and I've never had anyone ask why such and such NPC didn't handle things. I think this is over exaggerated and a poor excuse. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 20:14:31
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Why to fix something when the equivalent of the Justice League exist in this world? Like, yes, the players can kill a bunch of kobolds, but for stuff like the demon princes, the Shade, Tiamat, the not-Huns, etc., the burden is for Elminster and friends. Why sent a bunch of lv. 10 adventures to deal with Orcus when Elminster, Drizz't and the others are like lv. 40 or something, Chosen of the gods and whatnot? Is really a joke to do so. Or so my players say.
The problems is in their minds, I guess. But the fact that WotC officially killed or weakened the NPCs was reassuring for them. They now know why sent those lv. 10 adventures: there are no other high leveled guys around.
I get what you're saying and to me, it does make sense. I think a LOT of this comes from the over-saturation of NPCs during 3e/3.5 reign where we're given levels and stats of just about every single person mentioned from your small 70 person Thorpe to your thousands of people in Waterdeep.
When you have to go out of your way as to explain why X, Y, and Z person isn't there dealing with this threat when they have just as must or more stake in the area, it might become problematic. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 16:16:03
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
A pre-4e/5e idea I have in mind is the possible need to resurrect Amaunator. There are three moon-based goddesses (Selune, Sehanine Moonbow and Eilistraee)...so why not two sun gods ?
The issue is that those three are all different pantheons. In the Faerūnian pantheon, having Lathander and Amaunator both is redundant.
Though I'd not have an issue with another sun god in another pantheon. |
| Shadowsoul |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 12:40:51
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Why to fix something when the equivalent of the Justice League exist in this world? Like, yes, the players can kill a bunch of kobolds, but for stuff like the demon princes, the Shade, Tiamat, the not-Huns, etc., the burden is for Elminster and friends. Why sent a bunch of lv. 10 adventures to deal with Orcus when Elminster, Drizz't and the others are like lv. 40 or something, Chosen of the gods and whatnot? Is really a joke to do so. Or so my players say.
The problems is in their minds, I guess. But the fact that WotC officially killed or weakened the NPCs was reassuring for them. They now know why sent those lv. 10 adventures: there are no other high leveled guys around.
D&D isn't a comicbook so your logic doesn't hold any water. Unless any NPC in the Forgotten Realms is somehow a real being that has the ability to place itself in all of your adventures against your wishes your reasoning is rubbish. Now someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I can't recall an adventure saying this can't be completed unless Elminster does it for you. As a DM you have the power to use these NPC's anyway you want. Your adventures do no affect the overall canon of the world so why does it matter? 1st and 2nd edition had everything spot on as to how the lore should be written but that was all undone and then half arsed replaced by 2 editions. |
| Azar |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 06:40:50
A pre-4e/5e idea I have in mind is the possible need to resurrect Amaunator. There are three moon-based goddesses (Selune, Sehanine Moonbow and Eilistraee)...so why not two sun gods ? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 04:59:08
quote:
Originally posted by Qilintha
To remain in topic: Always fascinated by the Imaskari and Jhaamadth, a real shame it's always Netheril when there have been two others incredibly magic powerful empires in the history of Faerun that we know...almost nothing about.
I have a particular fascination with Jhaamdath, myself.
I'd love to find out that somewhere on Toril there was a Jhaamdathi equivalent of Halruaa -- a group of psionicists decided they didn't like the direction the nation was going in, and found themselves a new home, elsewhere, where they have quietly lived ever since. |
| Qilintha |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 03:16:10
I am sorry but your reasoning is just wrong. Justice League would assume El, Drizz't , Laeral are do-gooders... They aren't , they follow their ( Mystra's in the CHosen cases) agendas. They're not by any means the deus ex machina of good. They almost never act by themselves but often use proxies ( Harpers, adventurers and so on) otherwise if Justice League barges in, the Injustice League comes as well ...and Faerun is destroyed or a confrontation that Mystra doesn't want happens. Demons have plans that work in the hundreds of years. El or Blackstaff or whoever way to go is almost always " why not use 10 level PCs to remove a small plague before it becomes a real threat?" That's how, quite often, the "Justice League" works. Ed stated so for sure, unless it's truly something Realm-shaking, Elminster spends most of the time, learning/creating new spells, creating magical objects he crafted and placing them in ancient tombs for people to find. He is one of the guardians of the Weave not a guardian of Faerun. Speaking on DC terms, he is not a member of the Justice League but more like a member of the Council of Elders, he watches the world going on but very rarely intervenes directly.
Your argument is like : why cops exist if the Justice League exists?
Besides they're not ubiquitous or omniscient, if the adventure is built properly any DM can find a ton of excuses for them not being aware or interested of the problem. So as Wooly said in much shorter words, the problem didn't exist to begin with.
To remain in topic: Always fascinated by the Imaskari and Jhaamadth, a real shame it's always Netheril when there have been two others incredibly magic powerful empires in the history of Faerun that we know...almost nothing about. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 01:36:28
Why to fix something when the equivalent of the Justice League exist in this world? Like, yes, the players can kill a bunch of kobolds, but for stuff like the demon princes, the Shade, Tiamat, the not-Huns, etc., the burden is for Elminster and friends. Why sent a bunch of lv. 10 adventures to deal with Orcus when Elminster, Drizz't and the others are like lv. 40 or something, Chosen of the gods and whatnot? Is really a joke to do so. Or so my players say.
The problems is in their minds, I guess. But the fact that WotC officially killed or weakened the NPCs was reassuring for them. They now know why sent those lv. 10 adventures: there are no other high leveled guys around. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 01:27:09
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Too many uber NPCs wandering about. Granted, that doesn't stop me to just not use them and problem solved, but my DMing style is (or was) "by the book", as I didn't had that many time for homebrewing. And my players also took what was written even more seriously than myself, so they just keep asking "why Drizz't/Laeral/Elminster/etc. aren't solving this adventure?". They themselves felt as if their PCs didn't matter because the sole existence of such NPCs.
In 4e there is a by the book answer for that: they are either weakened, incapacitated or dead. There were no goody uber NPCs in 4e. It was up to the players to solve stuff. Sadly, the uber NPCs returned with 5e...
It's always been up to the PCs to fix stuff. There's a few dozen "uber NPCs" in the setting, compared to millions (if not far more) other folks.
You don't need to blow up the setting to fix a problem that doesn't exist. You just need to apply a little logic. |
| Azar |
Posted - 24 Apr 2021 : 00:57:02
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Too many uber NPCs wandering about. Granted, that doesn't stop me to just not use them and problem solved, but my DMing style is (or was) "by the book", as I didn't had that many time for homebrewing. And my players also took what was written even more seriously than myself, so they just keep asking "why Drizz't/Laeral/Elminster/etc. aren't solving this adventure?". They themselves felt as if their PCs didn't matter because the sole existence of such NPCs.
In 4e there is a by the book answer for that: they are either weakened, incapacitated or dead. There were no goody uber NPCs in 4e. It was up to the players to solve stuff. Sadly, the uber NPCs returned with 5e...
The lore of the Realms up until - oh - D&D 3e/3.5e was damn good. Seeing most of that rich history/geographical detail being extirpated with the advent of 4e was a gut-wrenching experience. |
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