| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Azar |
Posted - 06 Mar 2021 : 10:32:38
Hello everyone.
In my game, there is an NPC who was of minor importance that I eventually fleshed out when circumstances led the PCs to spending more time with them than anticipated (it was a protracted escort). I decided that he happened to be the offspring of a king that dallied with many women prior to marriage. When this man was younger, he fiercely rejected the association with his father and struck out on his own. Many years and many misfortunes later, he is now a struggling woodcutter with a boy of his own. The PCs (most of them, anyhow) took it upon themselves to persuade him to put aside his pride for the sake of his son and quietly pressure the monarch into paying him a handsome sum...so that the young lad will have a chance for a better future.
While this was going on, a somewhat obscure god came to my mind: Siamorphe. If a devotee of The Noble were asked to prove the royal lineage of someone that wishes to keep the matter private, would they abide by this request or would they make the information public? Keep in mind that I am an AD&D 2e DM; I'm not averse to using newer material, but I would like to know where it originates from. |
| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Azar |
Posted - 29 Mar 2021 : 00:05:49
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
And you know how to make enemies: try to change the status quo.
Even good aligned nobility would be hostile towards the power of a Siamorphan to grant upward social mobility. Most nobles conspire rules (such as 'the sponsorship of 5 families' rule for a waterdhavian noble title) to effectively nullify so called new lords or bastards from gaining social ground. A Siamorphan does grant the would be heir a legitimacy unlike any other, but this only opens doors to gaining goodwill; in the eyes of nobility there should be no easy way to grant a rulership of any import.
This way the kings, patriarchs of noble houses and merchant houses can deal with the passage of time in an somewhat orderly fashion. Sudden appearances of princes or princesses is only confusing the matters for all the involved. They do like party gifts though... so be prepared to appease a lot of greedy, slothful members of the clans with lavish feasts showcasing the best tastes the Realms has to offer.
You make a salient point.
With the exception of D&D 4e, Siamorphe has always been a Demipower/Demigod. This limitation (relative to other gods, anyhow) may be a natural consequence of the comparatively narrow scope of her divine duties, but it could also be thanks to conspiracies carried out by flesh-and-blood nobles. Even "benevolent" conspiracies - such as pushing Lathander or Waukeen as the national religions of choice - may ultimately serve to preserve safe power structures. If there were more Siamorphans around to keep monarchies on the up-and-up, you can bet the landscape of political influence would be radically different. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 13 Mar 2021 : 21:11:45
And you know how to make enemies: try to change the status quo.
Even good aligned nobility would be hostile towards the power of a Siamorphan to grant upward social mobility. Most nobles conspire rules (such as 'the sponsorship of 5 families' rule for a waterdhavian noble title) to effectively nullify so called new lords or bastards from gaining social ground. A Siamorphan does grant the would be heir a legitimacy unlike any other, but this only opens doors to gaining goodwill; in the eyes of nobility there should be no easy way to grant a rulership of any import.
This way the kings, patriarchs of noble houses and merchant houses can deal with the passage of time in an somewhat orderly fashion. Sudden appearances of princes or princesses is only confusing the matters for all the involved. They do like party gifts though... so be prepared to appease a lot of greedy, slothful members of the clans with lavish feasts showcasing the best tastes the Realms has to offer. |
| Azar |
Posted - 12 Mar 2021 : 23:45:56
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Yeah, I could see the priest of Siamorphe wanting to take stock of this 'new blood'.
Most likely he will deem the woodcutters boy unworthy of further attention because of a lack of decent schooling in history and state politics, and dismiss the whole case of sponsorship because of lack of potential.
But perhaps the priest will see something in the bastard that the nobility lacks but is in dire need of (innocence usually). In that case the whole machinery of the clergy could be energized to make for a campaign season full of turmoil with all the lavish wedding fests, financial arrangements for protection and sociopolitical posturing in the courts of the land that involves.
This may sound odd, but...that seems like the reverse (benevolent) version of getting Al Capone through tax evasion: finding a "loophole" to enact a positive change. |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 11 Mar 2021 : 18:23:06
Yeah, I could see the priest of Siamorphe wanting to take stock of this 'new blood'.
Most likely he will deem the woodcutters boy unworthy of further attention because of a lack of decent schooling in history and state politics, and dismiss the whole case of sponsorship because of lack of potential.
But perhaps the priest will see something in the bastard that the nobility lacks but is in dire need of (innocence usually). In that case the whole machinery of the clergy could be energized to make for a campaign season full of turmoil with all the lavish wedding fests, financial arrangements for protection and sociopolitical posturing in the courts of the land that involves.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Mar 2021 : 14:41:10
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Hi there,
Not that much able to cite history, however in fiction, your woodcutter would become a "pretender to the throne" . That is has no good legal claim, being born out of wedlock (if even can prove the King is Father). Often these types or people are backed and supported by rebel forces, at least to the King, often nobles of some power wanting more (or could be outsiders seeking to take over control of the realm). If they manage to validate the heir, the King soon dies, of course if the Heir does not follow the advise of his new "friends" he can die soon also.
All in all an out of wedlock child asking for acknowledgement from the King, becomes a threat to the realm. The King and his declared Heirs clearly would not want this confusion walking about the kingdom.
Danger to the Kingdom should be ended, the knife is a quick way, paying off blackmail always uncertain.
Divination magic backed by a divine will must throw a wrench into that political machinery.
Magic can be fooled though. In fact, if a kingdom's elite know that magic has become the defacto method of "proving" things, they'll immediately start paying some wizard to uncover methods to block or obscure or redirect divinations if they want to setup shenanigans.
Would not that magic itself be countered? I suppose a magical Lensman Arms Race could continue on to the point where the Realms are at parity with our real-world Middle Ages in terms of information access, but I - personally - find that unsatisfying. There ought to be enough societal differences that make the world feel fantastic.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Kentinal, that is a very valid concern (i.e. kill the pretender) and very good to mention, though it might be less of a concern depending on order conceived, etc... The laws of the kingdom might even state he would only come into play if all of the sons and daughters by his first marriage die. That being said, this is all theoretical, and we don't know how many legitimate children he had.... if its just one, well then it could be VERY concerning for that one legal heir. If its 6 though... less of an issue.
Still, I can't personally see many kings willing to aid a bastard who isn't willing to at least serve him somehow. Modern kingdoms are one thing, because "noble children" are such a rarity that they are the news..... but in the realms where there's a LOT of kings, I'd think they'd be more worried to make sure its known that "if he's going to get money, he's going to be squired to sir blah blah, and he's going to be raised in a manner befitting a noble, and that includes his father also serving". Otherwise, people will talk about how the king is wasting their "hard paid taxes on his byblows to do as they please".
Here's a somewhat related thought: how have you folks handled homebrewed/self-concocted bastards of Azoun? Were they all officially recognized as royalty?
regarding a counter to the counter.... that's very hard to do when you don't know what's being done. If you look at our real world, how hard is it to catch criminals BEFORE they commit acts. How much effort goes into cybersecurity, and yet people's identities get stolen. This is why basing any system of governance on the absolute certainty of magic is doomed to have issues. Now, I'm not saying magic wouldn't be used, and in many instances that may be enough. However, in other instances, there need to be other checks and balances in place besides "ye wizards or priest that would absolutely never lie, and could never be magically coerced to say something different, has declared that this child is an heir to the throne. It matters not that said spellcaster is friends with the father of the child, nor that the father owes him money, because magic says its so."
regarding Azoun's children, no, they weren't. There's been references of this sort in novels and such. |
| prototype00 |
Posted - 07 Mar 2021 : 11:01:16
I think it's been canonically stated in one of the novels that even if you were a bastard son of Azoun (I think one of the antagonists tried to advance her own issue, a Red Wizard, I recall of all things) you still would not take precedence (or be recognized) over his legitimate daughters. |
| Azar |
Posted - 07 Mar 2021 : 07:27:20
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Hi there,
Not that much able to cite history, however in fiction, your woodcutter would become a "pretender to the throne" . That is has no good legal claim, being born out of wedlock (if even can prove the King is Father). Often these types or people are backed and supported by rebel forces, at least to the King, often nobles of some power wanting more (or could be outsiders seeking to take over control of the realm). If they manage to validate the heir, the King soon dies, of course if the Heir does not follow the advise of his new "friends" he can die soon also.
All in all an out of wedlock child asking for acknowledgement from the King, becomes a threat to the realm. The King and his declared Heirs clearly would not want this confusion walking about the kingdom.
Danger to the Kingdom should be ended, the knife is a quick way, paying off blackmail always uncertain.
Divination magic backed by a divine will must throw a wrench into that political machinery.
Magic can be fooled though. In fact, if a kingdom's elite know that magic has become the defacto method of "proving" things, they'll immediately start paying some wizard to uncover methods to block or obscure or redirect divinations if they want to setup shenanigans.
Would not that magic itself be countered? I suppose a magical Lensman Arms Race could continue on to the point where the Realms are at parity with our real-world Middle Ages in terms of information access, but I - personally - find that unsatisfying. There ought to be enough societal differences that make the world feel fantastic.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Kentinal, that is a very valid concern (i.e. kill the pretender) and very good to mention, though it might be less of a concern depending on order conceived, etc... The laws of the kingdom might even state he would only come into play if all of the sons and daughters by his first marriage die. That being said, this is all theoretical, and we don't know how many legitimate children he had.... if its just one, well then it could be VERY concerning for that one legal heir. If its 6 though... less of an issue.
Still, I can't personally see many kings willing to aid a bastard who isn't willing to at least serve him somehow. Modern kingdoms are one thing, because "noble children" are such a rarity that they are the news..... but in the realms where there's a LOT of kings, I'd think they'd be more worried to make sure its known that "if he's going to get money, he's going to be squired to sir blah blah, and he's going to be raised in a manner befitting a noble, and that includes his father also serving". Otherwise, people will talk about how the king is wasting their "hard paid taxes on his byblows to do as they please".
Here's a somewhat related thought: how have you folks handled homebrewed/self-concocted bastards of Azoun? Were they all officially recognized as royalty? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Mar 2021 : 22:49:36
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Hi there,
Not that much able to cite history, however in fiction, your woodcutter would become a "pretender to the throne" . That is has no good legal claim, being born out of wedlock (if even can prove the King is Father). Often these types or people are backed and supported by rebel forces, at least to the King, often nobles of some power wanting more (or could be outsiders seeking to take over control of the realm). If they manage to validate the heir, the King soon dies, of course if the Heir does not follow the advise of his new "friends" he can die soon also.
All in all an out of wedlock child asking for acknowledgement from the King, becomes a threat to the realm. The King and his declared Heirs clearly would not want this confusion walking about the kingdom.
Danger to the Kingdom should be ended, the knife is a quick way, paying off blackmail always uncertain.
Divination magic backed by a divine will must throw a wrench into that political machinery.
Magic can be fooled though. In fact, if a kingdom's elite know that magic has become the defacto method of "proving" things, they'll immediately start paying some wizard to uncover methods to block or obscure or redirect divinations if they want to setup shenanigans.
Kentinal, that is a very valid concern (i.e. kill the pretender) and very good to mention, though it might be less of a concern depending on order conceived, etc... The laws of the kingdom might even state he would only come into play if all of the sons and daughters by his first marriage die. That being said, this is all theoretical, and we don't know how many legitimate children he had.... if its just one, well then it could be VERY concerning for that one legal heir. If its 6 though... less of an issue.
Still, I can't personally see many kings willing to aid a bastard who isn't willing to at least serve him somehow. Modern kingdoms are one thing, because "noble children" are such a rarity that they are the news..... but in the realms where there's a LOT of kings, I'd think they'd be more worried to make sure its known that "if he's going to get money, he's going to be squired to sir blah blah, and he's going to be raised in a manner befitting a noble, and that includes his father also serving". Otherwise, people will talk about how the king is wasting their "hard paid taxes on his byblows to do as they please". |
| Azar |
Posted - 06 Mar 2021 : 22:25:46
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Hi there,
Not that much able to cite history, however in fiction, your woodcutter would become a "pretender to the throne" . That is has no good legal claim, being born out of wedlock (if even can prove the King is Father). Often these types or people are backed and supported by rebel forces, at least to the King, often nobles of some power wanting more (or could be outsiders seeking to take over control of the realm). If they manage to validate the heir, the King soon dies, of course if the Heir does not follow the advise of his new "friends" he can die soon also.
All in all an out of wedlock child asking for acknowledgement from the King, becomes a threat to the realm. The King and his declared Heirs clearly would not want this confusion walking about the kingdom.
Danger to the Kingdom should be ended, the knife is a quick way, paying off blackmail always uncertain.
Divination magic backed by a divine will must throw a wrench into that political machinery.
Well once one deity gets involved,it becomes very likely others will as well. The woodcutter basically abdicated years ago, even now only considering recanting. For his son's future at the urging of adventurers? I can even picture Lolth wanting to get involved, however many other deities might have an interest as well.
Well you asked for advise. You clearly can take any or none that has been offered. May your play go well with your choices.
We're just having a back-and-forth here...chewing the fat, if you will. That said, the nobility aren't the only ones affected by this category of magic; all of the "Detect/Know" spells reshape society in ways both gross and subtle. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 06 Mar 2021 : 22:10:42
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Hi there,
Not that much able to cite history, however in fiction, your woodcutter would become a "pretender to the throne" . That is has no good legal claim, being born out of wedlock (if even can prove the King is Father). Often these types or people are backed and supported by rebel forces, at least to the King, often nobles of some power wanting more (or could be outsiders seeking to take over control of the realm). If they manage to validate the heir, the King soon dies, of course if the Heir does not follow the advise of his new "friends" he can die soon also.
All in all an out of wedlock child asking for acknowledgement from the King, becomes a threat to the realm. The King and his declared Heirs clearly would not want this confusion walking about the kingdom.
Danger to the Kingdom should be ended, the knife is a quick way, paying off blackmail always uncertain.
Divination magic backed by a divine will must throw a wrench into that political machinery.
Well once one deity gets involved,it becomes very likely others will as well. The woodcutter basically abdicated years ago, even now only considering recanting. For his son's future at the urging of adventurers? I can even picture Lolth wanting to get involved, however many other deities might have an interest as well.
Well you asked for advise. You clearly can take any or none that has been offered. May your play go well with your choices. |
| Azar |
Posted - 06 Mar 2021 : 21:17:45
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Hi there,
Not that much able to cite history, however in fiction, your woodcutter would become a "pretender to the throne" . That is has no good legal claim, being born out of wedlock (if even can prove the King is Father). Often these types or people are backed and supported by rebel forces, at least to the King, often nobles of some power wanting more (or could be outsiders seeking to take over control of the realm). If they manage to validate the heir, the King soon dies, of course if the Heir does not follow the advise of his new "friends" he can die soon also.
All in all an out of wedlock child asking for acknowledgement from the King, becomes a threat to the realm. The King and his declared Heirs clearly would not want this confusion walking about the kingdom.
Danger to the Kingdom should be ended, the knife is a quick way, paying off blackmail always uncertain.
Divination magic backed by a divine will must throw a wrench into that political machinery. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 06 Mar 2021 : 21:08:18
Hi there,
Not that much able to cite history, however in fiction, your woodcutter would become a "pretender to the throne" . That is has no good legal claim, being born out of wedlock (if even can prove the King is Father). Often these types or people are backed and supported by rebel forces, at least to the King, often nobles of some power wanting more (or could be outsiders seeking to take over control of the realm). If they manage to validate the heir, the King soon dies, of course if the Heir does not follow the advise of his new "friends" he can die soon also.
All in all an out of wedlock child asking for acknowledgement from the King, becomes a threat to the realm. The King and his declared Heirs clearly would not want this confusion walking about the kingdom.
Danger to the Kingdom should be ended, the knife is a quick way, paying off blackmail always uncertain. |
| Azar |
Posted - 06 Mar 2021 : 20:18:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
This may be the first time I've ever agreed with Daz on something concerning the deities of the Realms...
Reading through Siamorphe's write-up, it seems to me that she's more about noblesse oblige than nobility in general -- it evens says her followers will work to replace an unworthy noble with a better one.
That's the impression her clergy's dogma gives, but - in the realm of deities - she's the closest fit as far as I can tell.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think the priest of Siamorphe would keep this matter quiet per request of the relevant parties, unless the king and any legitimate heirs were all unworthy of their positions, and the illegitimate one more worthy. In that case, they'd push to get that illegitimate heir made legitimate and put him on the throne.
The obscure woodcutter becomes not-so-obscure? I'm not opposed to such a development...although I am not certain what position would be given to a man with his level of experience (i.e., none). Hm. I may have to research how this matter was handled historically, for a comparison benchmark, if nothing else.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I would point out, though -- PCs are often walking banks. Sure, it's not their personality responsibility to care for the woodcutter's son -- but if they're so concerned about his future prospects, it'd be quicker and easier for them to step up, themselves. The argument could be made, in fact, that if they're trying to push someone else to pay up, they should be willing to put forward a reasonable sum of their own.
A fair suggestion, though one with less adventure potential  .
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
This may be the first time I've ever agreed with Daz on something concerning the deities of the Realms...
Reading through Siamorphe's write-up, it seems to me that she's more about noblesse oblige than nobility in general -- it evens says her followers will work to replace an unworthy noble with a better one.
I think the priest of Siamorphe would keep this matter quiet per request of the relevant parties, unless the king and any legitimate heirs were all unworthy of their positions, and the illegitimate one more worthy. In that case, they'd push to get that illegitimate heir made legitimate and put him on the throne.
I can see a priest of Siamorphe pushing a noble to take care of their illegitimate issue -- after all, that is a responsibility of nobility, to care for their progeny.
I would point out, though -- PCs are often walking banks. Sure, it's not their personality responsibility to care for the woodcutter's son -- but if they're so concerned about his future prospects, it'd be quicker and easier for them to step up, themselves. The argument could be made, in fact, that if they're trying to push someone else to pay up, they should be willing to put forward a reasonable sum of their own.
I would say also that that's a very modern viewpoint (that it's the responsibility to care for a grandchild of an adult who has turned his back on his family). It would be viewed in my book that a noble family has a responsibility to those children who stay in the good graces of the family and are willing to step up if said noble family requires them too. If the child decides to cut off their relations to the noble family though and any obligations that it thereby incurs, then the noble family is not obligated to care for them in return. Now they CAN do so, but its not a "right" per se, and I don't think many commoners would look at it as a right for anyone who is in essence "shirking their noble duties".
Perhaps. My campaign isn't precisely a Middle Ages simulator, however, which means I'm free to break from "historical" norms if the need arises. By the way, it ought to be noted that the king wasn't exactly opening his arms in welcome and the way he handled this son's mother wasn't what we would call upstanding. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Mar 2021 : 18:24:34
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
This may be the first time I've ever agreed with Daz on something concerning the deities of the Realms...
Reading through Siamorphe's write-up, it seems to me that she's more about noblesse oblige than nobility in general -- it evens says her followers will work to replace an unworthy noble with a better one.
I think the priest of Siamorphe would keep this matter quiet per request of the relevant parties, unless the king and any legitimate heirs were all unworthy of their positions, and the illegitimate one more worthy. In that case, they'd push to get that illegitimate heir made legitimate and put him on the throne.
I can see a priest of Siamorphe pushing a noble to take care of their illegitimate issue -- after all, that is a responsibility of nobility, to care for their progeny.
I would point out, though -- PCs are often walking banks. Sure, it's not their personality responsibility to care for the woodcutter's son -- but if they're so concerned about his future prospects, it'd be quicker and easier for them to step up, themselves. The argument could be made, in fact, that if they're trying to push someone else to pay up, they should be willing to put forward a reasonable sum of their own.
I would say also that that's a very modern viewpoint (that it's the responsibility to care for a grandchild of an adult who has turned his back on his family). It would be viewed in my book that a noble family has a responsibility to those children who stay in the good graces of the family and are willing to step up if said noble family requires them too. If the child decides to cut off their relations to the noble family though and any obligations that it thereby incurs, then the noble family is not obligated to care for them in return. Now they CAN do so, but its not a "right" per se, and I don't think many commoners would look at it as a right for anyone who is in essence "shirking their noble duties". |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Mar 2021 : 16:28:09
This may be the first time I've ever agreed with Daz on something concerning the deities of the Realms...
Reading through Siamorphe's write-up, it seems to me that she's more about noblesse oblige than nobility in general -- it evens says her followers will work to replace an unworthy noble with a better one.
I think the priest of Siamorphe would keep this matter quiet per request of the relevant parties, unless the king and any legitimate heirs were all unworthy of their positions, and the illegitimate one more worthy. In that case, they'd push to get that illegitimate heir made legitimate and put him on the throne.
I can see a priest of Siamorphe pushing a noble to take care of their illegitimate issue -- after all, that is a responsibility of nobility, to care for their progeny.
I would point out, though -- PCs are often walking banks. Sure, it's not their personality responsibility to care for the woodcutter's son -- but if they're so concerned about his future prospects, it'd be quicker and easier for them to step up, themselves. The argument could be made, in fact, that if they're trying to push someone else to pay up, they should be willing to put forward a reasonable sum of their own. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Mar 2021 : 15:56:54
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Hello everyone.
In my game, there is an NPC who was of minor importance that I eventually fleshed out when circumstances led the PCs to spending more time with them than anticipated (it was a protracted escort). I decided that he happened to be the offspring of a king that dallied with many women prior to marriage. When this man was younger, he fiercely rejected the association with his father and struck out on his own. Many years and many misfortunes later, he is now a struggling woodcutter with a boy of his own. The PCs (most of them, anyhow) took it upon themselves to persuade him to put aside his pride for the sake of his son and quietly pressure the monarch into paying him a handsome sum...so that the young lad will have a chance for a better future.
While this was going on, a somewhat obscure god came to my mind: Siamorphe. If a devotee of The Noble were asked to prove the royal lineage of someone that wishes to keep the matter private, would they abide by this request or would they make the information public? Keep in mind that I am an AD&D 2e DM; I'm not averse to using newer material, but I would like to know where it originates from.
Honestly, I see Siamorphe about the "divine right to rule"... not the "blood right to rule". Based on what you presented, this person has shown no inclination to rule or provide leadership. In essence, he's abdicated the right to any funds "just because he's of the royal blood". At least, that's the way I would view it. Other opinions may differ.
Now, if the party wanted to put forth that the son or woodcutter should be shown to be of the royal blood so that he might right some wrong and thereby earn funds from the crown.... that might be another story. Perhaps standing up against some bureaucrat who is using his position to blackmail or line his own pockets somehow might earn the gratitude of the crown, especially if the person then reveals he is of royal lineage to "sanctify" why he is trying to stop this crime.
Basically, in your (well informed?) opinion, the priesthood of Siamorphe does not care about such "illegitimate children" unless they consciously wish to hold an officially recognized aristocratic station? Would this mean that divination magic focused on unearthing lineage wouldn't work on people that aren't fit to rule by divine standards? As far as I can tell, the spell I have in mind - Divine Bloodline - doesn't discriminate between those unaware of their heritage, those who are aware but indifferent and those who are aware with genuine political ambition  .
What you presented was "hey, he's of royal blood so he deserves money".... if someone came to a priest of Siamorphe and said "we need to prove this so they can get paid", they would have little interest in determining the truth in one direction or the other. Now if they came to said same priest and said "hey, look at what all the good stuff this person has done AND we believe they are of royal blood so maybe they should be doing something to help people via ruling".... then the priest of Siamorphe might be "hmmm, this is worth my time". |
| Azar |
Posted - 06 Mar 2021 : 14:30:46
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Hello everyone.
In my game, there is an NPC who was of minor importance that I eventually fleshed out when circumstances led the PCs to spending more time with them than anticipated (it was a protracted escort). I decided that he happened to be the offspring of a king that dallied with many women prior to marriage. When this man was younger, he fiercely rejected the association with his father and struck out on his own. Many years and many misfortunes later, he is now a struggling woodcutter with a boy of his own. The PCs (most of them, anyhow) took it upon themselves to persuade him to put aside his pride for the sake of his son and quietly pressure the monarch into paying him a handsome sum...so that the young lad will have a chance for a better future.
While this was going on, a somewhat obscure god came to my mind: Siamorphe. If a devotee of The Noble were asked to prove the royal lineage of someone that wishes to keep the matter private, would they abide by this request or would they make the information public? Keep in mind that I am an AD&D 2e DM; I'm not averse to using newer material, but I would like to know where it originates from.
Honestly, I see Siamorphe about the "divine right to rule"... not the "blood right to rule". Based on what you presented, this person has shown no inclination to rule or provide leadership. In essence, he's abdicated the right to any funds "just because he's of the royal blood". At least, that's the way I would view it. Other opinions may differ.
Now, if the party wanted to put forth that the son or woodcutter should be shown to be of the royal blood so that he might right some wrong and thereby earn funds from the crown.... that might be another story. Perhaps standing up against some bureaucrat who is using his position to blackmail or line his own pockets somehow might earn the gratitude of the crown, especially if the person then reveals he is of royal lineage to "sanctify" why he is trying to stop this crime.
Basically, in your (well informed?) opinion, the priesthood of Siamorphe does not care about such "illegitimate children" unless they consciously wish to hold an officially recognized aristocratic station? Would this mean that divination magic focused on unearthing lineage wouldn't work on people that aren't fit to rule by divine standards? As far as I can tell, the spell I have in mind - Divine Bloodline - doesn't discriminate between those unaware of their heritage, those who are aware but indifferent and those who are aware with genuine political ambition . |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 06 Mar 2021 : 13:29:04
quote:
Originally posted by Azar
Hello everyone.
In my game, there is an NPC who was of minor importance that I eventually fleshed out when circumstances led the PCs to spending more time with them than anticipated (it was a protracted escort). I decided that he happened to be the offspring of a king that dallied with many women prior to marriage. When this man was younger, he fiercely rejected the association with his father and struck out on his own. Many years and many misfortunes later, he is now a struggling woodcutter with a boy of his own. The PCs (most of them, anyhow) took it upon themselves to persuade him to put aside his pride for the sake of his son and quietly pressure the monarch into paying him a handsome sum...so that the young lad will have a chance for a better future.
While this was going on, a somewhat obscure god came to my mind: Siamorphe. If a devotee of The Noble were asked to prove the royal lineage of someone that wishes to keep the matter private, would they abide by this request or would they make the information public? Keep in mind that I am an AD&D 2e DM; I'm not averse to using newer material, but I would like to know where it originates from.
Honestly, I see Siamorphe about the "divine right to rule"... not the "blood right to rule". Based on what you presented, this person has shown no inclination to rule or provide leadership. In essence, he's abdicated the right to any funds "just because he's of the royal blood". At least, that's the way I would view it. Other opinions may differ.
Now, if the party wanted to put forth that the son or woodcutter should be shown to be of the royal blood so that he might right some wrong and thereby earn funds from the crown.... that might be another story. Perhaps standing up against some bureaucrat who is using his position to blackmail or line his own pockets somehow might earn the gratitude of the crown, especially if the person then reveals he is of royal lineage to "sanctify" why he is trying to stop this crime. |
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