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Originally posted by Azar

Hello everyone.

In my game, there is an NPC who was of minor importance that I eventually fleshed out when circumstances led the PCs to spending more time with them than anticipated (it was a protracted escort). I decided that he happened to be the offspring of a king that dallied with many women prior to marriage. When this man was younger, he fiercely rejected the association with his father and struck out on his own. Many years and many misfortunes later, he is now a struggling woodcutter with a boy of his own. The PCs (most of them, anyhow) took it upon themselves to persuade him to put aside his pride for the sake of his son and quietly pressure the monarch into paying him a handsome sum...so that the young lad will have a chance for a better future.

While this was going on, a somewhat obscure god came to my mind: Siamorphe. If a devotee of The Noble were asked to prove the royal lineage of someone that wishes to keep the matter private, would they abide by this request or would they make the information public? Keep in mind that I am an AD&D 2e DM; I'm not averse to using newer material, but I would like to know where it originates from.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Azar

Hello everyone.

In my game, there is an NPC who was of minor importance that I eventually fleshed out when circumstances led the PCs to spending more time with them than anticipated (it was a protracted escort). I decided that he happened to be the offspring of a king that dallied with many women prior to marriage. When this man was younger, he fiercely rejected the association with his father and struck out on his own. Many years and many misfortunes later, he is now a struggling woodcutter with a boy of his own. The PCs (most of them, anyhow) took it upon themselves to persuade him to put aside his pride for the sake of his son and quietly pressure the monarch into paying him a handsome sum...so that the young lad will have a chance for a better future.

While this was going on, a somewhat obscure god came to my mind: Siamorphe. If a devotee of The Noble were asked to prove the royal lineage of someone that wishes to keep the matter private, would they abide by this request or would they make the information public? Keep in mind that I am an AD&D 2e DM; I'm not averse to using newer material, but I would like to know where it originates from.

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Honestly, I see Siamorphe about the "divine right to rule"... not the "blood right to rule". Based on what you presented, this person has shown no inclination to rule or provide leadership. In essence, he's abdicated the right to any funds "just because he's of the royal blood". At least, that's the way I would view it. Other opinions may differ.

Now, if the party wanted to put forth that the son or woodcutter should be shown to be of the royal blood so that he might right some wrong and thereby earn funds from the crown.... that might be another story. Perhaps standing up against some bureaucrat who is using his position to blackmail or line his own pockets somehow might earn the gratitude of the crown, especially if the person then reveals he is of royal lineage to "sanctify" why he is trying to stop this crime.

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Originally posted by Azar

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Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:

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Originally posted by Azar

Hello everyone.

In my game, there is an NPC who was of minor importance that I eventually fleshed out when circumstances led the PCs to spending more time with them than anticipated (it was a protracted escort). I decided that he happened to be the offspring of a king that dallied with many women prior to marriage. When this man was younger, he fiercely rejected the association with his father and struck out on his own. Many years and many misfortunes later, he is now a struggling woodcutter with a boy of his own. The PCs (most of them, anyhow) took it upon themselves to persuade him to put aside his pride for the sake of his son and quietly pressure the monarch into paying him a handsome sum...so that the young lad will have a chance for a better future.

While this was going on, a somewhat obscure god came to my mind: Siamorphe. If a devotee of The Noble were asked to prove the royal lineage of someone that wishes to keep the matter private, would they abide by this request or would they make the information public? Keep in mind that I am an AD&D 2e DM; I'm not averse to using newer material, but I would like to know where it originates from.

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Honestly, I see Siamorphe about the "divine right to rule"... not the "blood right to rule". Based on what you presented, this person has shown no inclination to rule or provide leadership. In essence, he's abdicated the right to any funds "just because he's of the royal blood". At least, that's the way I would view it. Other opinions may differ.

Now, if the party wanted to put forth that the son or woodcutter should be shown to be of the royal blood so that he might right some wrong and thereby earn funds from the crown.... that might be another story. Perhaps standing up against some bureaucrat who is using his position to blackmail or line his own pockets somehow might earn the gratitude of the crown, especially if the person then reveals he is of royal lineage to "sanctify" why he is trying to stop this crime.

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Basically, in your (well informed?) opinion, the priesthood of Siamorphe does not care about such "illegitimate children" unless they consciously wish to hold an officially recognized aristocratic station? Would this mean that divination magic focused on unearthing lineage wouldn't work on people that aren't fit to rule by divine standards? As far as I can tell, the spell I have in mind - Divine Bloodline - doesn't discriminate between those unaware of their heritage, those who are aware but indifferent and those who are aware with genuine political ambition .

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

This may be the first time I've ever agreed with Daz on something concerning the deities of the Realms...

Reading through Siamorphe's write-up, it seems to me that she's more about noblesse oblige than nobility in general -- it evens says her followers will work to replace an unworthy noble with a better one.

I think the priest of Siamorphe would keep this matter quiet per request of the relevant parties, unless the king and any legitimate heirs were all unworthy of their positions, and the illegitimate one more worthy. In that case, they'd push to get that illegitimate heir made legitimate and put him on the throne.

I can see a priest of Siamorphe pushing a noble to take care of their illegitimate issue -- after all, that is a responsibility of nobility, to care for their progeny.

I would point out, though -- PCs are often walking banks. Sure, it's not their personality responsibility to care for the woodcutter's son -- but if they're so concerned about his future prospects, it'd be quicker and easier for them to step up, themselves. The argument could be made, in fact, that if they're trying to push someone else to pay up, they should be willing to put forward a reasonable sum of their own.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

This may be the first time I've ever agreed with Daz on something concerning the deities of the Realms...

Reading through Siamorphe's write-up, it seems to me that she's more about noblesse oblige than nobility in general -- it evens says her followers will work to replace an unworthy noble with a better one.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I think the priest of Siamorphe would keep this matter quiet per request of the relevant parties, unless the king and any legitimate heirs were all unworthy of their positions, and the illegitimate one more worthy. In that case, they'd push to get that illegitimate heir made legitimate and put him on the throne.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I would point out, though -- PCs are often walking banks. Sure, it's not their personality responsibility to care for the woodcutter's son -- but if they're so concerned about his future prospects, it'd be quicker and easier for them to step up, themselves. The argument could be made, in fact, that if they're trying to push someone else to pay up, they should be willing to put forward a reasonable sum of their own.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

This may be the first time I've ever agreed with Daz on something concerning the deities of the Realms...

Reading through Siamorphe's write-up, it seems to me that she's more about noblesse oblige than nobility in general -- it evens says her followers will work to replace an unworthy noble with a better one.

I think the priest of Siamorphe would keep this matter quiet per request of the relevant parties, unless the king and any legitimate heirs were all unworthy of their positions, and the illegitimate one more worthy. In that case, they'd push to get that illegitimate heir made legitimate and put him on the throne.

I can see a priest of Siamorphe pushing a noble to take care of their illegitimate issue -- after all, that is a responsibility of nobility, to care for their progeny.

I would point out, though -- PCs are often walking banks. Sure, it's not their personality responsibility to care for the woodcutter's son -- but if they're so concerned about his future prospects, it'd be quicker and easier for them to step up, themselves. The argument could be made, in fact, that if they're trying to push someone else to pay up, they should be willing to put forward a reasonable sum of their own.

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I would say also that that's a very modern viewpoint (that it's the responsibility to care for a grandchild of an adult who has turned his back on his family). It would be viewed in my book that a noble family has a responsibility to those children who stay in the good graces of the family and are willing to step up if said noble family requires them too. If the child decides to cut off their relations to the noble family though and any obligations that it thereby incurs, then the noble family is not obligated to care for them in return. Now they CAN do so, but its not a "right" per se, and I don't think many commoners would look at it as a right for anyone who is in essence "shirking their noble duties".

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Originally posted by Kentinal

Hi there,

Not that much able to cite history, however in fiction, your woodcutter would become a "pretender to the throne" . That is has no good legal claim, being born out of wedlock (if even can prove the King is Father). Often these types or people are backed and supported by rebel forces, at least to the King, often nobles of some power wanting more (or could be outsiders seeking to take over control of the realm). If they manage to validate the heir, the King soon dies, of course if the Heir does not follow the advise of his new "friends" he can die soon also.

All in all an out of wedlock child asking for acknowledgement from the King, becomes a threat to the realm. The King and his declared Heirs clearly would not want this confusion walking about the kingdom.
Danger to the Kingdom should be ended, the knife is a quick way, paying off blackmail always uncertain.

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Originally posted by Azar

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Originally posted by Kentinal

Hi there,

Not that much able to cite history, however in fiction, your woodcutter would become a "pretender to the throne" . That is has no good legal claim, being born out of wedlock (if even can prove the King is Father). Often these types or people are backed and supported by rebel forces, at least to the King, often nobles of some power wanting more (or could be outsiders seeking to take over control of the realm). If they manage to validate the heir, the King soon dies, of course if the Heir does not follow the advise of his new "friends" he can die soon also.

All in all an out of wedlock child asking for acknowledgement from the King, becomes a threat to the realm. The King and his declared Heirs clearly would not want this confusion walking about the kingdom.
Danger to the Kingdom should be ended, the knife is a quick way, paying off blackmail always uncertain.

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Divination magic backed by a divine will must throw a wrench into that political machinery.

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Originally posted by Kentinal

quote:

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Originally posted by Azar

quote:

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Originally posted by Kentinal

Hi there,

Not that much able to cite history, however in fiction, your woodcutter would become a "pretender to the throne" . That is has no good legal claim, being born out of wedlock (if even can prove the King is Father). Often these types or people are backed and supported by rebel forces, at least to the King, often nobles of some power wanting more (or could be outsiders seeking to take over control of the realm). If they manage to validate the heir, the King soon dies, of course if the Heir does not follow the advise of his new "friends" he can die soon also.

All in all an out of wedlock child asking for acknowledgement from the King, becomes a threat to the realm. The King and his declared Heirs clearly would not want this confusion walking about the kingdom.
Danger to the Kingdom should be ended, the knife is a quick way, paying off blackmail always uncertain.

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Divination magic backed by a divine will must throw a wrench into that political machinery.

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Well once one deity gets involved,it becomes very likely others will as well. The woodcutter basically abdicated years ago, even now only considering recanting. For his son's future at the urging of adventurers? I can even picture Lolth wanting to get involved, however many other deities might have an interest as well.

Well you asked for advise. You clearly can take any or none that has been offered. May your play go well with your choices.

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Originally posted by Azar

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Originally posted by Kentinal

Hi there,

Not that much able to cite history, however in fiction, your woodcutter would become a "pretender to the throne" . That is has no good legal claim, being born out of wedlock (if even can prove the King is Father). Often these types or people are backed and supported by rebel forces, at least to the King, often nobles of some power wanting more (or could be outsiders seeking to take over control of the realm). If they manage to validate the heir, the King soon dies, of course if the Heir does not follow the advise of his new "friends" he can die soon also.

All in all an out of wedlock child asking for acknowledgement from the King, becomes a threat to the realm. The King and his declared Heirs clearly would not want this confusion walking about the kingdom.
Danger to the Kingdom should be ended, the knife is a quick way, paying off blackmail always uncertain.

---

Divination magic backed by a divine will must throw a wrench into that political machinery.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:

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Originally posted by Azar

quote:

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Originally posted by Kentinal

Hi there,

Not that much able to cite history, however in fiction, your woodcutter would become a "pretender to the throne" . That is has no good legal claim, being born out of wedlock (if even can prove the King is Father). Often these types or people are backed and supported by rebel forces, at least to the King, often nobles of some power wanting more (or could be outsiders seeking to take over control of the realm). If they manage to validate the heir, the King soon dies, of course if the Heir does not follow the advise of his new "friends" he can die soon also.

All in all an out of wedlock child asking for acknowledgement from the King, becomes a threat to the realm. The King and his declared Heirs clearly would not want this confusion walking about the kingdom.
Danger to the Kingdom should be ended, the knife is a quick way, paying off blackmail always uncertain.

---

Divination magic backed by a divine will must throw a wrench into that political machinery.

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Magic can be fooled though. In fact, if a kingdom's elite know that magic has become the defacto method of "proving" things, they'll immediately start paying some wizard to uncover methods to block or obscure or redirect divinations if they want to setup shenanigans.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Kentinal, that is a very valid concern (i.e. kill the pretender) and very good to mention, though it might be less of a concern depending on order conceived, etc... The laws of the kingdom might even state he would only come into play if all of the sons and daughters by his first marriage die. That being said, this is all theoretical, and we don't know how many legitimate children he had.... if its just one, well then it could be VERY concerning for that one legal heir. If its 6 though... less of an issue.

Still, I can't personally see many kings willing to aid a bastard who isn't willing to at least serve him somehow. Modern kingdoms are one thing, because "noble children" are such a rarity that they are the news..... but in the realms where there's a LOT of kings, I'd think they'd be more worried to make sure its known that "if he's going to get money, he's going to be squired to sir blah blah, and he's going to be raised in a manner befitting a noble, and that includes his father also serving". Otherwise, people will talk about how the king is wasting their "hard paid taxes on his byblows to do as they please".

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Originally posted by Azar

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Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:

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Originally posted by Azar

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Originally posted by Kentinal

Hi there,

Not that much able to cite history, however in fiction, your woodcutter would become a "pretender to the throne" . That is has no good legal claim, being born out of wedlock (if even can prove the King is Father). Often these types or people are backed and supported by rebel forces, at least to the King, often nobles of some power wanting more (or could be outsiders seeking to take over control of the realm). If they manage to validate the heir, the King soon dies, of course if the Heir does not follow the advise of his new "friends" he can die soon also.

All in all an out of wedlock child asking for acknowledgement from the King, becomes a threat to the realm. The King and his declared Heirs clearly would not want this confusion walking about the kingdom.
Danger to the Kingdom should be ended, the knife is a quick way, paying off blackmail always uncertain.

---

Divination magic backed by a divine will must throw a wrench into that political machinery.

---

Magic can be fooled though. In fact, if a kingdom's elite know that magic has become the defacto method of "proving" things, they'll immediately start paying some wizard to uncover methods to block or obscure or redirect divinations if they want to setup shenanigans.

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Would not that magic itself be countered? I suppose a magical Lensman Arms Race could continue on to the point where the Realms are at parity with our real-world Middle Ages in terms of information access, but I - personally - find that unsatisfying. There ought to be enough societal differences that make the world feel fantastic.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Kentinal, that is a very valid concern (i.e. kill the pretender) and very good to mention, though it might be less of a concern depending on order conceived, etc... The laws of the kingdom might even state he would only come into play if all of the sons and daughters by his first marriage die. That being said, this is all theoretical, and we don't know how many legitimate children he had.... if its just one, well then it could be VERY concerning for that one legal heir. If its 6 though... less of an issue.

Still, I can't personally see many kings willing to aid a bastard who isn't willing to at least serve him somehow. Modern kingdoms are one thing, because "noble children" are such a rarity that they are the news..... but in the realms where there's a LOT of kings, I'd think they'd be more worried to make sure its known that "if he's going to get money, he's going to be squired to sir blah blah, and he's going to be raised in a manner befitting a noble, and that includes his father also serving". Otherwise, people will talk about how the king is wasting their "hard paid taxes on his byblows to do as they please".

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Here's a somewhat related thought: how have you folks handled homebrewed/self-concocted bastards of Azoun? Were they all officially recognized as royalty?

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Originally posted by Bladewind

Yeah, I could see the priest of Siamorphe wanting to take stock of this 'new blood'.

Most likely he will deem the woodcutters boy unworthy of further attention because of a lack of decent schooling in history and state politics, and dismiss the whole case of sponsorship because of lack of potential.

But perhaps the priest will see something in the bastard that the nobility lacks but is in dire need of (innocence usually). In that case the whole machinery of the clergy could be energized to make for a campaign season full of turmoil with all the lavish wedding fests, financial arrangements for protection and sociopolitical posturing in the courts of the land that involves.

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Originally posted by Bladewind

And you know how to make enemies: try to change the status quo.

Even good aligned nobility would be hostile towards the power of a Siamorphan to grant upward social mobility. Most nobles conspire rules (such as 'the sponsorship of 5 families' rule for a waterdhavian noble title) to effectively nullify so called new lords or bastards from gaining social ground. A Siamorphan does grant the would be heir a legitimacy unlike any other, but this only opens doors to gaining goodwill; in the eyes of nobility there should be no easy way to grant a rulership of any import.

This way the kings, patriarchs of noble houses and merchant houses can deal with the passage of time in an somewhat orderly fashion. Sudden appearances of princes or princesses is only confusing the matters for all the involved. They do like party gifts though... so be prepared to appease a lot of greedy, slothful members of the clans with lavish feasts showcasing the best tastes the Realms has to offer.

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