| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 26 Jan 2021 : 03:46:57
Are there any flying Netherese cities canonically that are completely unaccounted for? Ones that we don’t know what became of them when Karsus enacted his folly? I for one really loved that Rime featured a ruined one which had actually been destroyed prior to the fall. That to me, was some of the best lore we’ve gotten in 5e for FR.
What I’m really asking is if there are more out there under some forgotten glacier, in a desert, another continent, etc. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The DMs Revenge |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 16:04:00
"This is why I really question how much we really know about what happened to Netheril, and its why I believe we only have a part of the story. I think as time went on, its people just became too different and were no longer even cohesive enough to be considered even remotely a nation. A lot of enclaves may have become like a travelling group of nomads."
Yes, this. I'm seeing the Netherese more and more as nomadic barbarians, but with stone buildings, wizards and literature. Their lifestyle patterns would be very similar. It's easy to see how some of them would go on to be the Uthgardt.
|
| The DMs Revenge |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 16:00:31
My point was more, the enclaves would go wherever they wanted, unless checked by others. I'm sure they thought they were masters of the world, but some places were not worth the bother.
If they could do whatever they wanted in/above Narfell, then Narfell would have quickly just been seen as part of Netheril.
Perhaps I/we need better words here: In my opinion, Netheril was wherever the enclaves could/did usually go. As opposed the geographical location that later be known as the Anauroch.
So, it'd be hard for the enclaves to go outside of their domain of control (which they and others would refer to as Netheril), as it would have already have expanded (and/or continuously be expanding) to include all locations feasible. With the caveat that the enclaves were somehow still tied to the geography of Low Netheril for some reason (resources or some such). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 15:50:45
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Netherils enclaves were unlike aircraft carriers because each archmage in charge ruled his own mini kingdom and owed no allegiance to netheril at all (until the end of the shadowed age when the triumvirate took charge). Up until that point in history each enclave was independent of the nation of netheril and interacted with it as trading partners (not always friendly, sometimes the enclaves took what they wanted) because they needed supplies and people to survive, while the cities needed the protection and magic of the enclaves.
High Netheril was not a real political entity beyond the fact that most archmages wanted to emulate ioulaum (who was the best and most respected archmage in the history of netheril) and so would often do as he suggested out of respect (later when Karsus took charge the same happened but out of fear). Otherwise they competed against one another for the best spots (above Netherils cities), fought with each other over pointless slights, and behaved like entitled thugs are wont to behave.
So netheril could never compete with cormanthyr because it could never act in concert (each enclave did as it wished) and the elves would attack enclaves whenever they saw them. Low Netheril was the true nation but it relied on the enclaves for protection (its armies weren't great).
<snip for brevity>
These are good points. Just one other thing to keep in mind here and it's a pitfall that I fall into myself. I think its also a pitfall that the AUTHOR of Netheril:Empire of Magic fell into, because it is an easy thing to do. When we think of Netheril as this millenia spanning empire that's growing and creating these enclaves, we have to consider one fact. We have EnclaveX that gets created by ArchmageX. We have EnclaveY that gets created by ArchmageY. We have EnclaveZ that gets created by ArchmageZ.
Well, then ArchmageX has 63 children over 650 years (or maybe just 1 or 2... it doesn't matter) with 14 wives (or just 1... it doesn't matter). ArchmageX then dies, gets killed, gets trapped in stasis, disappears on some other plane.... or whatever. He is no longer there to rule EnclaveX. Who takes over? Does EnclaveX go to his oldest child like an inheritance? Maybe the most powerful child? Maybe its split between all the children. Does the next most powerful archmage from the enclave take over, and the children get nothing? Does it become the purview of a council of mages? Does a powerful archmage from another enclave swoop in and begin ruling over the people that have lived there? How does EnclaveX begin to govern itself when its creator is gone? I mean EnclaveX isn't destroyed. Its mythallar still works. Its got thousands of people living on it and tons of quasi-magic items to defend itself. There may be another thousand years before Netheril falls (or more). So, what happens to the Enclave?
So, that's EnclaveX...
What happens to EnclaveY and EnclaveZ when ArchmageY and ArchmageZ die? Since they are essentially independent entities, they may do something ENTIRELY different from what EnclaveX did. Does one create a inherited Mageking monarchy, another a magocratic council, another become a traitor and swear fealty to another nation, and a fourth becomes some kind of outreaching collective allowing in mages of all races and nations (and maybe a fifth goes the reverse and becomes decidedly worried about "remaining Netheril pure").
This is why I really question how much we really know about what happened to Netheril, and its why I believe we only have a part of the story. I think as time went on, its people just became too different and were no longer even cohesive enough to be considered even remotely a nation. A lot of enclaves may have become like a travelling group of nomads. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 15:26:16
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
That is why I suggested that the three survivors were the only ones that were higher off the ground than usual because
Not to rain on your storm, or Buffy, because I'm sure she deserves a nice party  but there's a bigger reason to fly high: the phaerimm.
It's stated *somewhere* in the boxed set that enclaves started flying higher near the end to avoid the phaerimm magic-drains. It's logical that many enclaves would move outside Netheril as well, but given that Anauria, Asram, and Hlondath were *inside* Netheril at the time of the Fall, and that they were not brought down by the phaerimm, it's a given that they would be flying high.
But I agree with George... not *miles* high.
Were they "magic drains"?? I know they were lifedrains. Now granted, there's also the notion that the weave is linked to life, so I mean it's not outside the bounds of possibility. But I didn't think the phaerimm were draining magic? Could be wrong. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 13:41:02
Netherils enclaves were unlike aircraft carriers because each archmage in charge ruled his own mini kingdom and owed no allegiance to netheril at all (until the end of the shadowed age when the triumvirate took charge). Up until that point in history each enclave was independent of the nation of netheril and interacted with it as trading partners (not always friendly, sometimes the enclaves took what they wanted) because they needed supplies and people to survive, while the cities needed the protection and magic of the enclaves.
High Netheril was not a real political entity beyond the fact that most archmages wanted to emulate ioulaum (who was the best and most respected archmage in the history of netheril) and so would often do as he suggested out of respect (later when Karsus took charge the same happened but out of fear). Otherwise they competed against one another for the best spots (above Netherils cities), fought with each other over pointless slights, and behaved like entitled thugs are wont to behave.
So netheril could never compete with cormanthyr because it could never act in concert (each enclave did as it wished) and the elves would attack enclaves whenever they saw them. Low Netheril was the true nation but it relied on the enclaves for protection (its armies weren't great).
So we see most enclaves leaving Netherils borders went west to the savage frontier. Larloch must have skirted north around cormanthyr to come to narfell. Movement was not free just because they could fly. The elves of cormanthyr and the dragons of the dragon coast taught the netherese the hard way that there were greater powers in the world. And any colonist from the 1700s will tell you how hard it is to survive in wilderness, even with a ship nearby filled with guns. Pampered people need luxuries and will not survive long without them.
Of course situations change and people get desperate at the end of the shadowed age, but otherwise you have a number of large, slow flying objects that needs supplies regularly, and enemies all around (except west) so they were stuck, even if they wouldn't ever admit it. |
| The DMs Revenge |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 12:54:00
That's a fair point, but:
a) bodies of water are often neutral territory unless fully encompassed by a nation.
b) anyplace where another empire would freak out and marshall all their forces to destroy an enclave before it could attack - I would consider to be across a border. Anyplace else the Netherese would probably consider "theirs".
But yes, borders are squishy, especially when you can fly your cities around. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 12:45:08
quote:
Originally posted by The DMs Revenge
They largely COULDN'T go outside of Nethril, because Nethril's borders were dedined by the borders of other nations that were pushing them back (per canon - LEoF I think).
I'd imagine flying Enclaves were like American aircraft carriers: hugely powerful in battle, but too valuable/expensive to commit in a direct battle unless victory was assured.
Except we know that they did go outside Netheril's borders. We know of several enclaves that went beyond Netheril's borders, like the two that wound up in the Sea of Fallen Stars.
Borders in fantasy settings are rarely anything more than conceptual. Even if it's a geological feature, there's usually a huge difference between a claimed border and the actual areas of control. |
| The DMs Revenge |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 12:34:55
They largely COULDN'T go outside of Nethril, because Nethril's borders were dedined by the borders of other nations that were pushing them back (per canon - LEoF I think).
I'd imagine flying Enclaves were like American aircraft carriers: hugely powerful in battle, but too valuable/expensive to commit in a direct battle unless victory was assured. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 03:43:20
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
It's logical that many enclaves would move outside Netheril as well, but given that Anauria, Asram, and Hlondath were *inside* Netheril at the time of the Fall, and that they were not brought down by the phaerimm, it's a given that they would be flying high.
It is logical that they would move outside Netheril... But canon says otherwise, and fails to give any reasons why. I've seen some arguments about food production/transport put forth, but the fact that a handful of cities did go elsewhere shows that there wasn't any reason the others couldn't.
Canon is really problematic, here -- because there's just so many places where it doesn't make sense. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 01 Feb 2021 : 02:36:36
quote:
That is why I suggested that the three survivors were the only ones that were higher off the ground than usual because
Not to rain on your storm, or Buffy, because I'm sure she deserves a nice party but there's a bigger reason to fly high: the phaerimm.
It's stated *somewhere* in the boxed set that enclaves started flying higher near the end to avoid the phaerimm magic-drains. It's logical that many enclaves would move outside Netheril as well, but given that Anauria, Asram, and Hlondath were *inside* Netheril at the time of the Fall, and that they were not brought down by the phaerimm, it's a given that they would be flying high.
But I agree with George... not *miles* high. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 31 Jan 2021 : 17:35:55
Hmmm, kind of glad I hadn't actually started drawing doubloon yet. The more I think on it, even the above can be improved on. For instance
two flat plates separated by air (like an oreo with no filling). A series of towers connects these flat plates on the outer rim. In the center the top flat plate, a large circle of material is removed, and a hollow round cylinder of glassteel is installed to also connect the two plates. The circle of removed earth from the top plate can be used to line the bottom of this glassteel container just so the bottom has "earth" in it for plants to grow in, etc.... This round cylinder collects rain and becomes basically a giant flying aquarium. On the underside of each plate, a general type of aqueduct and pipe plumbing can be installed and accessed in addition to what I was describing above. Valves allow water to be released from the central lake periodically to wash through this "undercity plumbing". There may also be smaller ponds that are periodically "flushed and refilled" on the lower tier from the large central lake, creating something like public swimming areas on the lower tier. Flying ships can land on the central lake accessible from the top plate. Other ships can fly into the hangar bays located on the bottoms of each plate. The upper plate is open to the sky and beautiful and for the rich. The lower plate is for the poorer folk or for venues that can be accessed from above but entirely enclosed (for instance a theatre, a sports stadium, a strip club, a slave auction, a prison, etc....).
Oh, and obviously one must fill the giant aquarium with fish (mostly non-combative and edible ones, pretty ones if they taste good, but nothing that might be a threat to the enclave).
This concept can obviously even be expanded into triple, quadruple, etc.... tiers. At most, I see it going to maybe all of 3 tiers though. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 31 Jan 2021 : 16:48:20
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
The description of Proctiv’s Move Mountain in the Netheril Arcane Age Boxed Set always had me thinking each enclave was a mountain.
It's pretty much stated in the spell description: "This spell was vital in the construction of enclaves. Without this spell, there was no simple way for severed mountains to be turned over and set afloat above the landscape."
Yeah, this is where I come back to saying "the guy had a lot to write" and he came up with some ideas that needed work, but they weren't horrible. A lot of us were imagining the flipped over mountaintop enclave because that's what we've mostly seen. Even before it was done in Netheril, there was the picture of the flying castle in Krynn that is probably etched in a lot of people's brains. He didn't necessarily come up with something new and unique, but he basically wanted to show an empire full of people using these tropes that were being shown. I'd say for me it was about 10 years or more back that I just started questioning "what would the enclaves look like, and would any look different".
Its for this reason that I actually picture the one I've talked about using in wildspace (i.e. Doubloon) as being more of the flat disk variety. Similar to the one in Rime, around the edge would be towers, and the towers allow one to go from the TOP of the enclave to the BOTTOM of the enclave. The bottom of the enclave then has things like a glassteel dome that basically acts as a lake in the center, and there's additional glassteel domes dotting the bottom surface for small ponds. In addition, on the bottom would be several bays for holding flying ships with elevators/stairs/ladders to the surface city above. This same concept might be used for "limited use" buildings, such as a small sports arena that might only be occupied 5% of the time to maximize use of the top for everyday stuff and the bottom for tedious things that they feel they need but don't want to waste the prime real estate for. Also, there would be buildings on the bottom that act as warehouses, experimental bunkers, and basements that are reached from the surface above and may have reverse gravity effects in those areas. On the top side may be constructed hills and such so that certain buildings naturally sit higher than surrounding territory (either for a view or for defensive reasons). This isn't of course to say that the top might not have multi-story buildings and such, but if something is just a place to say "park a ship", doing so on the underside would be useful. There may be "premium" parking on the top as well or places for emergency landings, etc... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 31 Jan 2021 : 16:28:13
Here's a thought for folks who want to "keep canon" but still have "flat disk" enclaves.
Archmage 1 - I take the top off Mount Skystone leaving a big flat top on top of it
Archmage 2 - I take the top off what REMAINS of Mount Skystone, which is now a wider and thinner surface like a plate giving me more flat surface area
Archmage 3 - I take the top off what REMAINS of Mount Skystone, which is now a wider and thinner surface like a plate giving me more flat surface area
Archmage 4 - I take the top off what remains after Archmage 3 got finished, getting an even wider surface as the moutain goes down.. but I do it twice and have two flat surfaces that I create my enclave on... leaving the Skystone Hills
Archmage 5 - I create the Skystone Hills dungeon leading into the Underdark, where I start mining chardalyn stones that were uncovered nearby
So, in the above idea "one enclave" is the upside down triangle and three of them are large flat disks, and the final is a mining colony/dungeon. In order to keep them stable, the flat ones may be placed on constructed disks of metal or somesuch as well (doesn't need to be iron and could just be something like a thick layer of tin, nickel, copper, etc...). After all, when we're talking about people having the power to lift mountains, creating a big "plate" to put them on, even if by some kind of magical transmutation into cheap metals, shouldn't be hard to believe.
|
| Rymac |
Posted - 31 Jan 2021 : 03:05:56
Who's to say one, or a few, of the flying enclaves exited the atmosphere into Realmspace. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 30 Jan 2021 : 22:39:06
-That means there probably would be extremely complex and convoluted alternates. Some dudes doing all this extra work, and then Proctiv comes around lol. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jan 2021 : 18:45:39
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
The description of Proctiv’s Move Mountain in the Netheril Arcane Age Boxed Set always had me thinking each enclave was a mountain.
It's pretty much stated in the spell description: "This spell was vital in the construction of enclaves. Without this spell, there was no simple way for severed mountains to be turned over and set afloat above the landscape." |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 30 Jan 2021 : 18:26:56
The description of Proctiv’s Move Mountain in the Netheril Arcane Age Boxed Set always had me thinking each enclave was a mountain. Rime definitely flipped that. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Jan 2021 : 16:09:58
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Maybe because not all of the enclaves were sitting atop upturned mountain peaks.
-- George Krashos
Yeah, this too. If you look at the one in icewind dale, its specifically a flat disk with towers off the edge and a city on the top. I'd bet there were a mix of this kind of thing. The ones that were big rocks probably had more of an interior city than what's been described to us. But with magics to shape stone, etc... I'd imagine a lot of them were disks. Some may have been akin to wheeled spokes to allow water and wind to flow through easily. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a city on a spiral like a unicorn's horn with the buildings going up the spiral. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that some cities were on "solid fog" type effects such that the city was in a literal cloud. Perhaps a city got a seed from "garden" in realmspace and "grew" its flying enclave and it periodically flits from lake to lake with its people (and after being in a lake for a few days, it drains the lake a bit, so that's why its always on the move).
By the way that was a little fun... take a second... put on your imagination hat.... what can you picture as a "different" look for an enclave? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jan 2021 : 15:43:09
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Maybe because not all of the enclaves were sitting atop upturned mountain peaks.
-- George Krashos
It's how they're described in published canon.
But even if it was only say 25% of them, that still leaves those very large rocks unaccounted for... To say nothing of the rest of them. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 30 Jan 2021 : 15:26:46
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'm always intrigued why people are convinced that Netherese flying enclaves were jumbo jets flying at 25,000 feet. Cue: But magic ... please. There is zero benefit for enclaves to be flying miles off the ground unless absolutely necessary. It's like the U-Boats in WW2 - they spent more time travelling on the surface than they did travelling underwater.
-- George Krashos
Exactly, if they kept the bottom at least say 150 feet from the ground that would make good enough clearance that they wouldn't be accidentally tearing through most trees, etc... (granted, there are a few old trees that might be higher than that, so maybe 250 feet just to make it hard for someone to climb a tree and then somehow invade the enclave or some other crazy BS like that). |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 30 Jan 2021 : 06:50:37
Maybe because not all of the enclaves were sitting atop upturned mountain peaks.
-- George Krashos |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Jan 2021 : 03:34:12
I'm inclined to think that it wasn't as much an altitude thing as it was that Mystra was not fully rebooted yet, and only had time (or power enough) to save three. Maybe she picked the first three she saw, or maybe those three had some significance to her -- though the fact that they were in the same general vicinity makes me doubt the latter.
Maybe it was a case where she could only expend a certain amount of power -- like a giant web or something -- and those three were close enough to be caught in it, while the rest of the enclaves were far enough apart that she could have only caught one or two.
Also, the line about the three surviving cities being "along Netheril’s southeastern frontier" still leaves us with an awfully large section of map that does not appear to contain any formerly flying cities.
On a similar note, it's odd that the Anauroch Desert doesn't seem to have the ruins of these cities scattered around everywhere. Sure, I know that deserts do swallow up signs of civilization, but it's going to take a lot of wind and sand to cover up a piece of a mountain.
...It makes me wonder if there's another reason these ruins are not to be found. You could say the mythallars imploded or something, though you've then got to explain why it didn't happen to all of them. Maybe someone came along later and put a lot of effort into making sure the ruins wouldn't be found... |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 30 Jan 2021 : 01:13:49
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'm always intrigued why people are convinced that Netherese flying enclaves were jumbo jets flying at 25,000 feet. Cue: But magic ... please. There is zero benefit for enclaves to be flying miles off the ground unless absolutely necessary. It's like the U-Boats in WW2 - they spent more time travelling on the surface than they did travelling underwater.
-- George Krashos
That is why I suggested that the three survivors were the only ones that were higher off the ground than usual because they wanted to be above some storm clouds (cumulonimbus clouds top out around 10,000 ft). They wanted the rain for the crops of Low Netheril but didn't want to get rained on. Maybe, it was little Buffy's birthday party?  |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 30 Jan 2021 : 00:22:03
I'm always intrigued why people are convinced that Netherese flying enclaves were jumbo jets flying at 25,000 feet. Cue: But magic ... please. There is zero benefit for enclaves to be flying miles off the ground unless absolutely necessary. It's like the U-Boats in WW2 - they spent more time travelling on the surface than they did travelling underwater.
-- George Krashos |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 29 Jan 2021 : 02:51:48
-On the WOtC boards we had like a 50 page thread about various factoids related to Netheril and somewhere in there we worked out the math and various distances and times it would take for cities to fall in the time Mystryl did not exist and magic ceased. I know they're gone (RIP) and archived to some degree, was there ever a way to search them instituted? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 28 Jan 2021 : 22:07:24
I believe the archmages of ythryn were messing around with the Spindle, and ostorian artefact, and its accidental improper activation caused the fall of ythryn. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 28 Jan 2021 : 21:46:48
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
hmmm, just one thing that's kind of interesting... I pointed out above that enclaves could fall without it pertaining to Karsus' Folly. It seems that's exactly what happened with the one that's in icewind dale. It happened PRIOR to Karsus' Folly by a couple years. Just found it interesting that people are circling around the same ideas.
Maybe the Twenty Stones of Thruun had something to do with it? Those are in Icewind Dale, right? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Jan 2021 : 21:32:42
hmmm, just one thing that's kind of interesting... I pointed out above that enclaves could fall without it pertaining to Karsus' Folly. It seems that's exactly what happened with the one that's in icewind dale. It happened PRIOR to Karsus' Folly by a couple years. Just found it interesting that people are circling around the same ideas. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 28 Jan 2021 : 16:39:52
Sorry, it looks like I added an edit while you were posting that.
It could be that even she couldn't take things back to a time where magic didn't exist. Or, that lends credence to my suggestion that she didn't save the other cities because of their hubris. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Jan 2021 : 16:35:41
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
On the concept of "how high did they fly", honestly planes fly at like 6 miles up. I'd be surprised if they keep the cities that far up. Even a half mile would be plenty.
That is a 13 second fall with an impact velocity of less than 300 mph. I could definitely see that as being too short a time for Mystral to "kill" herself, Mystra be born, and then have the situational awareness to save any of the enclaves falling from that height.
What is the speed of thought to a deity who is composed of it? What is TIME to a goddess of time... just another factor that can be played with and even stopped or even reversed? In a world of magic, many things can happen in a timeframe that we might find unbelievable.
From another perspective, this could explain why there wasn't so much upheaval on a global scale (local yes). The cities weren't dropping from the height of planes, etc... so local to where they fell may have been very devastated, maybe even out to a few dozen miles if they DID fall into an area of loose particles like a desert.... and Talos possibly reaped enough power through somehow aiding this destruction that he stole Kozah's identity (or Kozah lost his eye and became Talos). |
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