| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| keftiu |
Posted - 11 Feb 2020 : 03:18:50
This is more of a meta-discussion than a proper lore one, but I wanted the thoughts of the sages on this: what purpose does the Wall serve?
It seems like an odd moral judgment to make - revere a deity in life or face what is essentially an eternal punishment - and I was curious if anyone has ever heard reasoning from the authors why it’s a feature of the setting to begin with. I’d love to get a read on how everyone here feels about it as well, and if anyone discards it or has done a campaign perhaps asking questions about it and/or replacing or destroying it. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 05 Mar 2020 : 05:37:34
Master LordofBones,
The whole thing is ridiculously funny to be honest. The stuff that gets thrown out now days can be so contradictory it is hard to make any sense of it at times. I personally enjoy the idea of Moander as a mortal at some point in time. You know, the local garbage truck driver...
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
It becomes funnier when you realize that, if all gods are ascended mortals, then Asmodeus, god of sin, has had his entire backstory retconned. The former anaphanct is now a bog standard mortal.
Then you have dudes like Raxivort and Kanchelsis, who were never mortal. Kanchy started off as a mass of corrupt divine blood; Raxivort was in Graz'zt's direct employ. Then there's Urdlen.
|
| LordofBones |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 07:45:58
It becomes funnier when you realize that, if all gods are ascended mortals, then Asmodeus, god of sin, has had his entire backstory retconned. The former anaphanct is now a bog standard mortal.
Then you have dudes like Raxivort and Kanchelsis, who were never mortal. Kanchy started off as a mass of corrupt divine blood; Raxivort was in Graz'zt's direct employ. Then there's Urdlen. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 03 Mar 2020 : 01:01:42
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I also remember reading in an FR novel that all FR gods originated as mortals (I don't remember it well, but I guess it was Stardeep). And also, Mike Mearls said it in a podcast. But this can be a 5e thing.
This is obviously false, though, no matter how you (or better: they) try to spin it. It's pretty clear that entities like Selune and Shar predate any mortal--and they're not the only ones. If it's stated in Stardeep, then it's either the PoV being clueless or--if stated by an omniscient narrator--a blatant (and quite nonsensical) retcon. Given the novel in which it was stated (tail end of 3e) it was possibly part of the 4e reimagining of the pantheon (like the series of the "Selune=Sehanine" kind of retcons). |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 02 Mar 2020 : 16:19:37
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Nerull was only a 'loth in the Gygax novels. 3e's Nerull hates everyone and everything. He's the one power who lives in Carceri because he likes the place. He hates everything so much that he lets fiends eat the souls in his realm for funsies. The idea of him falling in love is so utterly alien that it's incomprehensible.
4e thoroughly retcons this, since the entire pantheon has been upended.
Then 5e upends this more, since Nerull is alive and well.
Well, I guess you didn't read the final 4e Dragon and Dungeon articles, so you may not know, but the Raven Queen was not a regular soul. She was specifically created by a group of gods who wanted to unseat Nerull, with all the traits that appeal to him the most. That's why he fell "in love" with her. And it was not a loving relation what they had. It's heavily implied their only son was born from a non-consensual act, and that Nerull was an abusive husband.
Is also implied that Nerull was not truly dead, just unable to enter the world (of the Dawn War pantheon) by the power of the Raven Queen. There was an aspect of him still active in Pluton, for instance. And he was not among the dead gods in the article about the... well, dead gods of the Dawn War pantheon.
This leads me to believe that only his (major) aspect on the Dawn War's world was killed, but the "main" Nerull was still alive and well in Oerth. In fact, I remember there is a source that mentioned that no matter if a god dies in one world, his "version" on other worlds will be unaffected by such an event.
Anyways, we know all the stories about the origins of the gods and what happened before mortals began to accurately record stuff are myths. They may have a kernel of truth, but aren't actual truths. And that is something that is specifically stated in all 4e sources, at least. In many 4e sources you will read that those stories are just a version of what may have happened and that the source may be taken with a grain of salt. That's why the Bane of the Dawn War has like 3 or 4 different origin myths.
So, there is a high chance the stories about the death of Nerull may just be a tale made up by the sages and priests of the Nentir Vale to try to explain why suddenly Nerull lost interest in their world and then the Raven Queen appeared from somewhere to take the portfolio of death. And this explanation is perfectly canon within 4e lore.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones where you got this, since we know that Hextor and Heironeous were born gods. The elder powers of the Forgotten Realms were born from the war between Shar and Selune. The Krynnish pantheon is made of born gods.
From a Planescape source, but I don't remember which one. I also remember reading in an FR novel that all FR gods originated as mortals (I don't remember it well, but I guess it was Stardeep). And also, Mike Mearls said it in a podcast. But this can be a 5e thing. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 02 Mar 2020 : 03:36:08
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The Dawn War pantheon is 4e, and had to rewrite Nerull's entire character.
It's canon, whether we like it or not, much like the Wall. That originated in 4e doesn't make less valid just because you have a bias against an edition.
And I have both 3e and 4e sources, and there is no difference between the two versions of Nerull, save that in 4e Nerull was an ascended human* and not a daemon/loth in disguise (tho, the 3e sources never mention the loth thing). I find the 4e version of Nerull pretty faithful to its 3e incarnation, in fact.
Nerull was only a 'loth in the Gygax novels. 3e's Nerull hates everyone and everything. He's the one power who lives in Carceri because he likes the place. He hates everything so much that he lets fiends eat the souls in his realm for funsies. The idea of him falling in love is so utterly alien that it's incomprehensible.
4e thoroughly retcons this, since the entire pantheon has been upended.
Then 5e upends this more, since Nerull is alive and well.
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X*And according to Planescape, all gods are ascended mortals, so this isn't as preposterous as some people makes it to sound.
I don't know where you got this, since we know that Hextor and Heironeous were born gods. The elder powers of the Forgotten Realms were born from the war between Shar and Selune. The Krynnish pantheon is made of born gods. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 02 Mar 2020 : 03:25:30
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
To be fair, afterlife in Baator and the Abyss does allow for promotion. Orcus was a human necromancer-priest long before becoming tanar'ri lord of undeath.
Do you have the source for this? I sounds interesting.
Dead Gods.
It's somewhat the reason as to why Orcus is the most popular among mortal cultists; he simply resonates better with them. Graz'zt was born into power, Demogorgon was created for it, but Orcus crawled his way up from nothing through sheer grit and willpower to seize an Abyssal throne. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 19:32:57
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
To be fair, afterlife in Baator and the Abyss does allow for promotion. Orcus was a human necromancer-priest long before becoming tanar'ri lord of undeath.
Do you have the source for this? I sounds interesting.
Many sources - numerous monster manual entries, half of Planescape, many splatbooks - before "fiends" were all lumped into one generic taxon.
Advancement is not certain. It takes lifetimes, centuries, millennia, aeons. Most souls do not survive the process, few indeed can reach the higher tiers. These are no longer whatever they once were, their previous existence(s) is(are) half-forgotten, only the rage and hatred and pain and cruelty and malign essence remains. Crucibles of hellfire burn away weaknesses, humanity, compassion, sanity - all that remains is pure, hard, condensed evil. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 17:22:12
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I don't know... I think the way he is bound is that he sits in judgment over those who died, but has no control over those that died before. Those souls have their place in the pantheon established already.
For those reasons the wall is and he has no control over it - aside from adding to it that is.
That's still not saying he can't change the rules or that Myrkul had some special power that Kelemvor doesn't.
I'm also unconvinced that Kelemvor couldn't do away with the Wall, provided that he found another method for those souls to be dissolved. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 16:24:29
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The Dawn War pantheon is 4e, and had to rewrite Nerull's entire character.
It's canon, whether we like it or not, much like the Wall. That originated in 4e doesn't make less valid just because you have a bias against an edition.
And I have both 3e and 4e sources, and there is no difference between the two versions of Nerull, save that in 4e Nerull was an ascended human* and not a daemon/loth in disguise (tho, the 3e sources never mention the loth thing). I find the 4e version of Nerull pretty faithful to its 3e incarnation, in fact.
Obviously, I don't have any other source prior to 3e so cannot say anything about them. But if you find 4e Nerull that different from the Greyhawk one, the blame lies in 3e.
*And according to Planescape, all gods are ascended mortals, so this isn't as preposterous as some people makes it to sound.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Other pantheons generally don't overstep into the resident death god's realm - the Oeridian pantheons don't meddle with Nerull or Wee Jas; the Olympians don't mess with Hades; the Celts leave Arawn be; the Faerunians don't meddle with Myrkul or Kelemvor; the Bureaucracy doesn't meddle with Yan Luo; the Norse leave Hel alone, etc.
The problem with the Wall is that it's simply the most blatant about it. I don't see protests being raised about Nerull turning souls into bricks for his realm, or the Norse dishonorable dead having to deal with poisonous snakes and hellhounds.
Didn't knew about the Oeridian punishment for their dead, but I know the Nordic did something about it. There is no wonder why Odin and Freya both created alternatives to Niflheim, so that at least they could give their favored worshipers a better afterlive. At least, in their actual mythology. I dunno how they modified it to fit the Great Wheel.
As for Hades, we all know the Greek gods are jerks. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 16:07:11
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
To be fair, afterlife in Baator and the Abyss does allow for promotion. Orcus was a human necromancer-priest long before becoming tanar'ri lord of undeath.
Do you have the source for this? I sounds interesting. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 07:13:57
To be fair, afterlife in Baator and the Abyss does allow for promotion. Orcus was a human necromancer-priest long before becoming tanar'ri lord of undeath. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 04:41:20
I don't see protests about the fates suffered by evil, godless, soulless folk in the generic Gygaxian Great Wheel either. I can't imagine an afterlife in the Nine Hells or in the Infinite Abyss would be a pleasant experience. Even fiends don't enjoy it.
Real-world mythologies and religions have invented cruel punishments just as bad or worse than The Wall. Is having your soul gradually dissolved by a cosmic solvent really as bad as having your soul remain intact for the rest of eternity simply so you can suffer endless anguish and torment? Viewed from this perspective I think The Wall seems almost merciful. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 03:00:38
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
As a matter of fact, the Dawn War pantheon did took matters into their hands when Nerull overstepped into his stewardship of the dead, and expelled him from their world -- by creating the Raven Queen to kill Nerull's aspect in that world and maintain him barred from ever re-entering, and then just forced the Raven Queen to follow strict rules about the treatment of the dead.
The Dawn War pantheon is 4e, and had to rewrite Nerull's entire character. Other pantheons generally don't overstep into the resident death god's realm - the Oeridian pantheons don't meddle with Nerull or Wee Jas; the Olympians don't mess with Hades; the Celts leave Arawn be; the Faerunians don't meddle with Myrkul or Kelemvor; the Bureaucracy doesn't meddle with Yan Luo; the Norse leave Hel alone, etc.
The problem with the Wall is that it's simply the most blatant about it. I don't see protests being raised about Nerull turning souls into bricks for his realm, or the Norse dishonorable dead having to deal with poisonous snakes and hellhounds. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 29 Feb 2020 : 02:46:49
I don't know... I think the way he is bound is that he sits in judgment over those who died, but has no control over those that died before. Those souls have their place in the pantheon established already.
For those reasons the wall is and he has no control over it - aside from adding to it that is. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Feb 2020 : 16:15:47
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
MotB makes an interesting point that Kelemvor can't actually reverse his predecessor's policies. To quote Myrkul:
"Despite your ego, the universe does not bend to your whims... and it is I who set the rules long ago."
Which brings up an interesting point: the Wall is a weapon, a club of belief...in Myrkul.
I think Myrkul was talking out his bony backside, there. The rules of the universe don't bend to Myrkul's whim any more than they bend to Kelemvor's. All deities in the Realms must follow Ao's rules - and one of those rules is that the deity that controls a portfolio has full control over it.
If the god of the dead can set a rule, then the god of the dead can change that rule -- it's an aspect of the office and is not going to follow a previous office holder when he leaves that office.
If Kelemvor can't remove the Wall, than either it was mandated by Ao, or there's some other reason that it has to be there that's beyond Myrkul or Kelemvor -- and the former clearly did not want to admit to that. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 26 Feb 2020 : 14:54:51
As a matter of fact, the Dawn War pantheon did took matters into their hands when Nerull overstepped into his stewardship of the dead, and expelled him from their world -- by creating the Raven Queen to kill Nerull's aspect in that world and maintain him barred from ever re-entering, and then just forced the Raven Queen to follow strict rules about the treatment of the dead.
So, I see it more as something that the gods of the Realms doesn't care about to change rather than something they cannot change. That, or Lord Ao enforces the existence of the Wall. I can see him doing it. The guy is rather a merciless prick who is obsessed with maintaining the status quo regardless if the new things are better... |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 26 Feb 2020 : 03:12:30
MotB makes an interesting point that Kelemvor can't actually reverse his predecessor's policies. To quote Myrkul:
"Despite your ego, the universe does not bend to your whims... and it is I who set the rules long ago."
Which brings up an interesting point: the Wall is a weapon, a club of belief...in Myrkul.
Yes, Kelemvor can change his domain. Yes, he can institute new laws. But what he can't actually do is reverse or alter decisions made by his predecessor, who was acting well within the bounds of his office as Lord of the Dead. Myrkul may have been evil, but as far as we know, he did his job well and kept his domain tidy. It's not like the Oeridian pantheon's up in arms over Nerull bricking petitioners into the walls of his domain, or the Aesir are out against Hel for her treatment of the Nordic dead.
Death gods are basically given leeway over how they treat the petitioners of their respective pantheons, even those who don't worship them in their own crystal sphere. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 26 Feb 2020 : 00:20:51
Yeah, you're right. However, I guess that is like when people dislikes something so hard, they don't want it near lol. Like those people that complaints about 4e, but don't even have the books... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Feb 2020 : 15:52:55
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I stand corrected, then. Though I still don't like the idea of that ugly Wall looming in my Realms..
The Wall is more problematic than it's worth, at the moment... But it's also something that has almost no bearing on anything -- it's not like it's going to come up in game play, unless you either deliberately bring it into focus or you've got a Faithless (N)PC who can't avoid getting killed.
It's like worrying about Halruaa when your characters never leave the Heartlands. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 25 Feb 2020 : 12:42:19
I stand corrected, then. Though I still don't like the idea of that ugly Wall looming in my Realms..
|
| Demzer |
Posted - 25 Feb 2020 : 10:39:12
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
If we go by canon, yes. I'm going to ignore the LFR adventures as they are of dubious canonicity, but if you read any canon sources (sourcebooks, magazines and novels) about the Abeiran displaced lands, the only church you're going to find is the Church of Bahamut in Tymanther. And then, the Church of Enlil, also in Tymanther, but that is from a "recent" novel. So, for like a century, the only god interested in the souls of the Abeirans (or the dragonborn, in this case) was Bahamut. A whole country of tens of thousands potential worshipers, and just one god trying to convert them (yeah, a few dragonborn worship other gods, but those converts are on an individual basis, not organized churches or even cults).
And this leaves out places such as Akanûl and Laerakond (a whole continent), that have no god vying for those souls.
So, if we go by the canon materials, the gods are not trying to convert the Abeirans, even when gods gain a lot from worshipers. To me, this means two things: either the gods are holding back for some reasons, or they are not interested in the Abeirans, and are in a diva attitude of "you must come to me", that I don't see as something "good". And seeing how Enlil came out from nowhere and began to claim dragonborn worshipers without no one saying nothing about it, I guess there is no restriction in the Abeiran souls.
And if a god is not interested in a soul, and such soul is not interested in a god (even if such lack of interest is justifiable), then I guess those souls are going to be mortared in the Wall.
But these canon information you cite, to me only tell that in some places the Faerunian (well more the Untheric) pantheon is encroaching on the dragonborn and trying to get converts. Just like the Faerunian pantheon was doing in the Old Empires pre-Spellplague, trying to get a foothold somewhere they had no power previously and get those souls too.
But just like with the Mulhorandi and Untheri and Chessentan who followed their own gods of old, the Abeirans are probably not subject to the dictates of Kelemvor and the Faerunian pantheon.
Wooly fished out the tweet by Ed I was referring to before and I agree with the following:
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So not all of the dead go to Kelemvor; he only sees worshippers of the Faerûnian pantheon. So followers of other pantheons go elsewhere.
This would mean that whether on Faerûn, Abeir, or Laerakond, dead Abeirrans go to whatever fate awaited their ancestors. Kelemvor doesn't get them unless they convert, and either way, they don't go into the Wall.
In hundreds of years of time, maybe, if most of the dragonborn and genasi and whatever else came from Abeir convert (which is not a given, as you [Zeromaru X] were pointing out how on Abeir the concept of divinity and "patrons" is completely different) then they will be subject to Kelemvor's (or whoever will be the Faerunian God of Death then) rules. But for the time being it seems much easier to me to assume that the Abeiran souls keep following their old path to the afterlife, be it instantaneous oblivion, reincarnation, dissolvence into the Planes or whatever they did for millenia before the merging of the worlds.
Assuming that the good gods are not trying to get converts among the Abeirans because they are acting like divas shows a clear bias on the idea of divinity and religion which doesn't belong in the setting.
A much more reasonable assumption would be to think that most good gods respect the Abeirans traditions and indipendence and don't want to even try conversions.
I also think that if everyone (every god) started blurring the philosophical border of what region/ethnic group is or isn't within the Faerunian pantheon (in the case of a big wave of proselytisation that involved a lot of different churches) then you will have problems with Kelemvor having "legal grounds" to process Abeiran souls and then some (probably a lot of) people might get screwed.
Of course this is all interpretation of the scattered information we have but I like it better when new and old "canon" are gelled together to make sense (ie the good gods have a good reason to not touch the Abeirans) then jumping to conclusions which would invalidate a lot of well established facts (ie Ilmater fought for millenia against oppression and tyranny and slavery ... and then stands by while thousands or possibly millions of souls get damned for eternity without giving a s**t). |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 25 Feb 2020 : 08:09:06
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
I feel there are a bit too many misconceptions being fueled here which I feel stem from drawing parallels with our real world where they don't belong.
My point, succinctly put |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Feb 2020 : 01:52:41
A recent Twitter exchange from Ed:
quote:
@Razzelmire
@TheEdVerse went on Twitter just to ask this. Is Kelemvor in charge of all souls or Faerunian pantheon only? What about Mulhorandi pantheon? Do Giant, Dragon, Mind Flayer, Elf, Dwarf, etc souls go to him or to their own respective judgments?
@TheEdVerse
Kelemvor’s clergy will tell you that Kelemvor governs the fate of all souls. However, this is (honestly believed by those who say it) church propaganda. In other words, it isn’t true; the truth is that Kelemvor can’t even keep up with judging all Faerûnian pantheon=worshipping human souls. So, yes, the souls of nonhuman beings go to other judges and judgments, some souls get lost and “wander,” and humans who worship the Mulhorandi pantheon or other deities not of Toril encounter other judges. It seems to vary on a case-by-case basis, which really means mortals are struggling to understand the afterlife, and various faiths are attempting to provide answers which likely have more to do with reassurance and doctrine than reality. Or to put it in the very apt words of a real-world faith: “It’s a mystery.”
#Realmslore
So not all of the dead go to Kelemvor; he only sees worshippers of the Faerûnian pantheon. So followers of other pantheons go elsewhere.
This would mean that whether on Faerûn, Abeir, or Laerakond, dead Abeirrans go to whatever fate awaited their ancestors. Kelemvor doesn't get them unless they convert, and either way, they don't go into the Wall. |
| Seethyr |
Posted - 24 Feb 2020 : 22:10:01
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
.
There are only two points that I would like people to actually take a step back and think hard on and these are:
1) check your atheism/agnosticism/general faith at the door because we are talking about a fantasy setting with a few gods of oozes(!), a lot of the points raised in the discussion interpret the gods (all of them) as malevolent power hungry billionaires toying with mortal souls and call into question monotheism which is basically non-existent in the setting;
2) Myrkul did it, not "the Christians", as much as I understand in our modern world it's more fashionable to claim faith in Banjo the Clown than Christianity, it gets tiring seeing in a forum on a fantasy setting my faith being called out quite explicitly without reason, I would like to be afforded the same amount of respect anyone of any other belief seems to be entitled to;
I often stay out of these discussions myself, but this response deserves quite a bit of love. Seconded. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 24 Feb 2020 : 20:40:12
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
So you automatically assume that gods that represent the best aspects of human life, some of which sacrificed a lot for their mortal followers for eons untold, are just standing by and tossing souls to the Wall because they don't give a s**t and it's all a big lie ... instead of, you know, maybe understanding how the afterlife worked in Abeir, since, as far as I am aware, people died in Abeir too before the merging?
Considering that other pantheons with racial deities of death receive their own treatment it means that there are already exception to the main Faerunian pantheon way of handling things. Also considering that people died on Abeir without any godly intervention (in any direction), I would not automatically assume the dragonborn are screwed.
Going on a wild guess, since I really don't know, taking into account the more "primal" and elemental nature of Abeir I can hypothesise that the souls of whoever dies there end up in the old way, feeding the Planes.
I would not automatically assume that since no word has been said in canon print about dragonborn afterlife than all of Toril's goodly divine beings are d**ks because ... well that's not very logical ...
At the end of the story, Lord Ao is calling the shots in both worlds and I'm assuming there is already an "Aberian soul-processing procedure 101.pdf" file he/she/it can slip into Kelemvors hands to get the dragonborn their due.
If we go by canon, yes. I'm going to ignore the LFR adventures as they are of dubious canonicity, but if you read any canon sources (sourcebooks, magazines and novels) about the Abeiran displaced lands, the only church you're going to find is the Church of Bahamut in Tymanther. And then, the Church of Enlil, also in Tymanther, but that is from a "recent" novel. So, for like a century, the only god interested in the souls of the Abeirans (or the dragonborn, in this case) was Bahamut. A whole country of tens of thousands potential worshipers, and just one god trying to convert them (yeah, a few dragonborn worship other gods, but those converts are on an individual basis, not organized churches or even cults).
And this leaves out places such as Akanûl and Laerakond (a whole continent), that have no god vying for those souls.
So, if we go by the canon materials, the gods are not trying to convert the Abeirans, even when gods gain a lot from worshipers. To me, this means two things: either the gods are holding back for some reasons, or they are not interested in the Abeirans, and are in a diva attitude of "you must come to me", that I don't see as something "good". And seeing how Enlil came out from nowhere and began to claim dragonborn worshipers without no one saying nothing about it, I guess there is no restriction in the Abeiran souls.
And if a god is not interested in a soul, and such soul is not interested in a god (even if such lack of interest is justifiable), then I guess those souls are going to be mortared in the Wall. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 24 Feb 2020 : 17:11:38
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
This is one of greatest injustices of the current Realms, that makes the so-called "good" gods the biggest hypocrites of all. And that is just one of the flaws of the Wall of the Faithless.
So you automatically assume that gods that represent the best aspects of human life, some of which sacrificed a lot for their mortal followers for eons untold, are just standing by and tossing souls to the Wall because they don't give a s**t and it's all a big lie ... instead of, you know, maybe understanding how the afterlife worked in Abeir, since, as far as I am aware, people died in Abeir too before the merging?
Considering that other pantheons with racial deities of death receive their own treatment it means that there are already exception to the main Faerunian pantheon way of handling things. Also considering that people died on Abeir without any godly intervention (in any direction), I would not automatically assume the dragonborn are screwed.
Going on a wild guess, since I really don't know, taking into account the more "primal" and elemental nature of Abeir I can hypothesise that the souls of whoever dies there end up in the old way, feeding the Planes.
I would not automatically assume that since no word has been said in canon print about dragonborn afterlife than all of Toril's goodly divine beings are d**ks because ... well that's not very logical ...
At the end of the story, Lord Ao is calling the shots in both worlds and I'm assuming there is already an "Aberian soul-processing procedure 101.pdf" file he/she/it can slip into Kelemvors hands to get the dragonborn their due. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 24 Feb 2020 : 17:01:20
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I also find the idea of walling the souls of people who are disillusioned with the divine due to hard times problematic. Simply because most of them have likely upheld some kind of ideal, or dedicated themselves to something in their life, so--if saying "f*ck the gods, they're useless"--is their sin, I think that there are many deities who would find the compassion to take many of them in their realm, rather than condemning them. For this reason, I'm not sure that many would end up in the wall, leaving only a very small number of souls collected over the eras (those who had the power--be it might or influence--to truly act on the "damn the gods" thoughts, and who actually did it) to form it. Which would lead me to question how such a large wall exists
The fine print is where I disagree.
I actually think each soul (not each god) has final say over where it ends up, meaning that if people died disaffected and wanted to stick it to the gods despite being offered an afterlife by a god that closely matched their outlook then they will be judged Faithless. I expect that during Myrkul's reign not everything was spelled out clearly while I guess Kelemvor would lay out every alternative in excruciating detail (I ignore Cyric's reign as I don't think I knew what he was doing).
So during Myrkul's realms it was something like:
Myrkul: "Hey mortal, god so-and-so says you can go to his/her domain but you are free to refuse, what do you say?"
Disaffected mortal: "F**k you all I didn't deserve to die! I don't want no gods!"
Myrkul: "Fine, off to the Wall you go, kthxbai!"
Disaffected mortal: "Wait wha..." [gets plastered]
While during Kelemvor's reign more something like:
Kelemvor: "Hey John/Jane Doe, god so-and-so says you can go to his/her domain but you are free to refuse, what do you say?"
Disaffected mortal: "F**k you all I didn't deserve to die! I don't want no gods!"
Kelemvor: "Ok, this means you will end up in the Wall of the Faithless and your consciousness will dissolve over time into nothingness"
Disaffected mortal: "Hang on a minute ... let me think about this ..."
Otherwise, as you point out, the existence of such a big wall made out of souls would be difficult to explain with a short number of Faithless available. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 24 Feb 2020 : 16:33:17
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
On Toril it takes a very obstinate, stubborn, misguided or stupid being to be a full blown monotheist of the kind we have on our own world. On the other end of the spectrum it takes a similar type of being to refuse any acknowledgement of the reality of the divine.
This was true, until the Spellplague happened. And if we are hunting down canon bits to justify that ugly Wall, we have to take into account that, in canon, there are literally a few hundreds immigrants from a world were gods didn't existed. If in Toril the existence of a god is an actual fact, then in Abeir the actual fact is that the gods don't exist there. This is a canon fact, even if people doesn't like the current Realms and tend to ignore them.
Then, under the rules of Toril, all of those Abeiran expatriates are condemned to the Wall just because they don't believe in gods, because in their world they lived for hundreds of years knowing that the gods didn't existed, and the ones who "existed" were self-proclaimed mortals with great egos (also an actual fact in their world). And no, you cannot change such an ingrained perception in just 100 years. That is not how cultures work. If you look a the real world history of religions, it takes at least a few centuries for a religion to take root in a given culture (300 years for Christianity; I expect 150-200 years with actual gods proselytizing).
And even with extreme proselytizing, the Abeirans may reject gods just because past experiences ("oh, yeah, yours is a 'good' god? That dragon overlord from Abeir said the same, and she enslaved all my ancestors. Thank you, next").
The perfect farmer of Abeiran descent (for instance) knows that them can do amazing work without the help of any "god". And that any "god" offering free help may as well be seeking to enslave them (or worse, eat them) and all their family and friends, because this happened to their grandmama back in Abeir. So, this farmer most likely is going to reject Chauntea out of justified mistrust, and guess were their soul is going to end?
This is one of greatest injustices of the current Realms, that makes the so-called "good" gods the biggest hypocrites of all. And that is just one of the flaws of the Wall of the Faithless. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 24 Feb 2020 : 16:14:05
As you point out, the Wall would be essentially pointless most of the time, and it works the way it does because Myrkul created it, but there are a couple points that puzzle me.
First, I guess that Kelemvor could come up with better uses for the souls of the faithless than making a wall out of them (especially since, in his own domain, it would take Kelemvor nothing to just replace the wall). Putting them at work like the false, for example. The number of souls wouldn't even be that large, especially on a cosmic scale.
I also find the idea of walling the souls of people who are disillusioned with the divine due to hard times problematic. Simply because most of them have likely upheld some kind of ideal, or dedicated themselves to something in their life, so--if saying "f*ck the gods, they're useless"--is their sin, I think that there are many deities who would find the compassion to take many of them in their realm, rather than condemning them. For this reason, I'm not sure that many would end up in the wall, leaving only a very small number of souls collected over the eras (those who had the power--be it might or influence--to truly act on the "damn the gods" thoughts, and who actually did it) to form it. Which would lead me to question how such a large wall exists
Presentation also matters, and while the system that you decribe is how I have it when I run FR, this info should be all gathered in one place and be easily accessible, not scattered among many sources. Especially with all the opportunities to do this in newer sources. It's easy to understand why people form a wrong idea of the Wall, if all they read is "the Wall is where the souls of the faithless disappear forever"
Good points, though. |
| Demzer |
Posted - 24 Feb 2020 : 14:20:53
Uhm, I've tried staying away from this topic because it easily makes tempers flare but I feel there are a bit too many misconceptions being fueled here which I feel stem from drawing parallels with our real world where they don't belong.
[DISCLAIMER: everything below is based off of "canon" material (which I don't have time to hunt down at the moment, sorry) and then goes on with my personal interpretation of how it should be read and interpreted and how to make it work with the setting, it works at my table, obviously you do whatever you want at your own]
I would also like to avoid trying to divine the intentions of whoever came up with the idea back in the day and think of the explanations within the setting.
Toril has multiple pantheons, each with at least a handful of gods (except for a few of the most obscure/alien races) and mortal beings are acutely aware of the working of various gods during their everyday lives. We know through Ed (and common sense, to be honest) that the overwhelming majority of those people are not monotheists in the sense that through prayers and actions they revere or at least acknowledge multiple divine beings. This is true even for most of the clergies (clerics and paladins and similar types) who, even if they hold one patron above any other, still acknowledge and respect other deities, even if only a handful (think of the Triad, the Deities of Fury, the Deities of Knowledge, even Bane and his lackeys, etc...). On Toril it takes a very obstinate, stubborn, misguided or stupid being to be a full blown monotheist of the kind we have on our own world. On the other end of the spectrum it takes a similar type of being to refuse any acknowledgement of the reality of the divine.
I cannot scour for exact sources now (I think it's the only good thing Troy Denning did in his novels and was later confirmed by Ed, but I'm not 100% sure) but we know that in the Realms if you upheld the ideals of a deity even without paying "lip-service" you are awarded an afterlife with that deity unless your soul refuses it (mortals are always given a choice).
Now the problem I see in this discussion is that people seem to have their own life experience cloud they readings of this fantasy situation and expect anyone in-setting to have to "pay tribute" to a deity to get an afterlife worth mentioning. This is not the case in the Realms, simply put.
Most of the deities of the Realms care not only about the people that explicitly paid them homage and tribute in life but also about the people that through their action and example upheld their values and their world-view, be it nurturing fields and crops or unleashing rivers of blood by defeating all your foes.
The aforementioned case of the perfect farmer that never in his/her life thought of the Nature gods (which is kind of preposterous in-setting for the pervasiveness of the divine in the Realms, but whatever) and is then at risk of being judged Faithless is baseless. This is because in the Realms said farmer would have nurtured his/her crops and livestock and cared for the land and his/her household and fought off vermins and diseases and worked for the balance of civilisation and nature and will be rewarded with a pastoral and bucolic afterlife in the warm embrace of Chauntea (or one of the other Nature dieties, depending on personal inclinations). I really don't see why said farmer would refuse an afterlife tailored on the best aspects of his/her own mortal lifespan if granted the chance.
The same is true for the archetypical craftsperson being "collected" by Gond to live forevermore in a land of costant discovery or the peerless hunter chasing all kinds of preys in the hunting grounds of Malar the Beastlord. And so on and on.
All the above would make the existence of the Wall of the Faithless kind of useless in modern day (be it late 1300s or late 1400s) Faerun for the very few number of people ending up there, so why was it made and what's it made of if there are only a handful of souls to mortar it?
First of all, Myrkul did it, just after the Fall of Netheril and, as several already pointed out, Netheril was a time full of people purposefully ignoring and challenging the gods. Also the Fall of Netheril was a very traumatic event for the populations involved and as an aftershock effect I expect a lot of people to vehemently reject the divine (and die).
This means that Myrkul came into office with an influx of souls either always enstranged to the divine (arcanists and upper echelon) or disaffected to the point of challenging it (most of the common people dying left right and center and wanting to stick it to the divine patrons that didn't protect them well enough). Also he had to deal with all the minions of Jergal which in life were mortals antagonistic to the divine and were of dubious loyalty.
A kinder being would have thought of something cool and peaceful to deal with the unrest, Myrkul stuffed them all in a wall and had his priests spread the word that you ended up there if you didn't behave.
What happened during and after the Fall of Netheril probably also happened (with regional differences) at the fall of every big empire/civilisation. Likewise, I'm pretty sure all powerful and mighty empires harboured people that actively rejected their gods.
So during "normal" times the Wall doesn't see much activity except from the demonic assaults while during intense periods of strife and catastrophe (Fall of Netheril, Time of Troubles, Spellplague, ecc...) or at the height of magically mighty empires (Netheril, Imaskar, ecc...) there is an higher influx of souls for it.
As for why Kelemvor didn't get rid of it, I suppose it's because he would need to think of something for all the souls that are already in there and there is nothing else fitting (and probably the other deities would not like him claiming uncountable souls for his own just to get rid of the Wall), also it actually effectively prevents other, "more worthy", souls from getting snatched by demons and I think Jergal will tell anyone in office to think very carefully about moving away from the past.
As said in the disclaimer, that's how I interpret the canonical information we have on the Wall, your mileage may vary.
There are only two points that I would like people to actually take a step back and think hard on and these are:
1) check your atheism/agnosticism/general faith at the door because we are talking about a fantasy setting with a few gods of oozes(!), a lot of the points raised in the discussion interpret the gods (all of them) as malevolent power hungry billionaires toying with mortal souls and call into question monotheism which is basically non-existent in the setting;
2) Myrkul did it, not "the Christians", as much as I understand in our modern world it's more fashionable to claim faith in Banjo the Clown than Christianity, it gets tiring seeing in a forum on a fantasy setting my faith being called out quite explicitly without reason, I would like to be afforded the same amount of respect anyone of any other belief seems to be entitled to; |
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