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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Feb 2020 : 03:18:50
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This is more of a meta-discussion than a proper lore one, but I wanted the thoughts of the sages on this: what purpose does the Wall serve?
It seems like an odd moral judgment to make - revere a deity in life or face what is essentially an eternal punishment - and I was curious if anyone has ever heard reasoning from the authors why it’s a feature of the setting to begin with. I’d love to get a read on how everyone here feels about it as well, and if anyone discards it or has done a campaign perhaps asking questions about it and/or replacing or destroying it.
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4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2020 : 04:10:12
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Okay so you have to know that this is a major frustrating argument that lots of FR fans disagree about, so you've stepped into a bit of a landmine here.
The important thing is that in the theology of the Realms from 2e to 3e, deities needed the power of their believers to live and promote their portfolios. If a deity didn't have any believers, they'd wither and die. So the Wall of the Faithless is the way of keeping the mortal believers doing their part of the arrangement: their belief in the deities gets them power from those deities in turn (to use an example, stuff like the bodily changes for trans people we discussed with Ed.) Because this cycle is so crucial to everyone's existence, having punishment to keep everyone in line is important. That's the whole and sole purpose of the Fugue Plane and judgment under the God of the Dead. Did you hold up your part of the bargain and worship? Then you get to go be with a god. If you don't, you get punished. Kelemvor doesn't care WHAT god you worship, just that you worshiped one.
So you can think of it theologically as serving an equivalent role to Christian Hell, the punishment for not doing your duty in life.
A couple more notes: 1) The Wall predates 2e and the "belief cycle" I described above. The False and the Faithless were a thing proceeding, but were likely created for the 2e belief model (as they first appear in the Avatar trilogy). Causality still gives us them prior to the Avatar Trilogy, so the Wall and its punishment role has been part of the Realms for a very very long time.
2) I don't like the arguments people make against the Wall, but you can play through them if you like! Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer is a CRPG all about the Wall and its effects on life, death and so on.
e: I made a blog post explaining the Fugue Plane, the Wall, and its reasons and topography last month that might shine a light on things for you: https://icequeensthrone.blogspot.com/2020/01/the-fugue-plane-summary.html |
Edited by - Arivia on 11 Feb 2020 04:11:12 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2020 : 04:25:19
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I once theorized that before recorded history, the deities had to band together to fight some very evil nastybad... They managed to ward it away or sunder it into pieces or something like that, but they didn't entirely defeat it.
The Wall of the Faithless is one of the things that keeps this baddie contained. As the souls of the Faithless are slowly consumed, they fuel whatever it is that keeps this baddie locked away from the Realms.
Keep in mind this is just an idea I had; it is not even remotely hinted at in published Realmslore. |
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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
774 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2020 : 04:42:51
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(EDIT: Upon re-reading, this was a very disjointed post, so let me try again)
Here's a recent Twitter thread where Ed discusses the Wall and the False/Faithless dichotomy and does his best to incorporate a concept he clearly doesn't prefer into the Realms (or, as he says, "I've never liked any of this Faithless, the Wall, and so on [all added to the Realms by TSR]. Yet it's official now, so..")
As for me, I've never liked these concepts either, especially not the whole "you need to have a divine patron or you're Faithless scum" part. As Ed keeps stressing, the Realms are polytheistic, not mono- and the vast majority of people in the Realms do not devote themselves to one specific god; that's what clerics and paladins are for, and what sets them apart. I think the Realms worked fine without it, and I don't think "serving an equivalent role to Christian Hell" (to borrow Arivia's phrase) is something that needed to be added to them.
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AJA
YAFRP
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Edited by - AJA on 11 Feb 2020 14:14:15 |
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Grumpy Hamatula
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2020 : 16:10:17
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At best (and YMMV; this is just my two coppers), I see the Wall as the fate of those who actively deny the existence of demonstrably real gods and encourage others to deny their existence. This only works, IMO, because the Realms is a setting in which gods give routine, verifiable evidence of their existence and in which, at least per canon, they must have worship to continue to exist. I still think that's a bit messy, though, as it ventures into matters of free will and implies the question of whether good-aligned deities (in the traditional sense) would punish a mortal for exercising free will.
I know the Wall of the Faithless bothered my players when they first learned of it, and it distressed some of their characters quite a bit, especially those who just weren't all that into worshiping gods and who, due to the ignorance of most mortals about extraplanar affairs, were a bit unsure of what level of "neglect" would qualify them for the Wall. We talked about it at length, and we touched on the idea (which I am so pleased to see echoed in Ed's Twitter thread) that, unlike a monotheistic culture, a polytheistic culture is more at ease with the idea of acknowledging a god's existence and offering them periodic or purpose-specific worship without having to focus on that god exclusively. Clerics and paladins can have such highly specific focus (which, in some cases, might be a type of henotheism), but even they don't outright deny the existence of the other gods in most cases.
So at my tables at least, it takes a lot to qualify for the Wall, and most mortals can be expected to avoid that fate. Likewise, it takes a lot to qualify for the torments of the False...though, in more than one instance in my games, fiends have used PCs' relative ignorance in an attempt to inspire enough fear to pursue other fates, like a fabulous career in the Glorious Baatezu Army. ;) |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2482 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2020 : 16:22:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
The important thing is that in the theology of the Realms from 2e to 3e, deities needed the power of their believers to live and promote their portfolios. If a deity didn't have any believers, they'd wither and die.
Curiously enough, Planescape also has this stuff of gods needing faith to sustain and power up themselves, yet they don't use such a draconian thing to enforce worship. This is something that only happens in the Realms, and open a lot of questions. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2020 : 16:27:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
So you can think of it theologically as serving an equivalent role to Christian Hell, the punishment for not doing your duty in life.
Except that, as far as I know, in the lore most people aren't even aware of it, so it serves little to no purpose.
In any case, having a god's assistance in your life is more than enough to keep people's worship going in a world like FR, where that assistance can be quite explicit. It's basically an exchange, so the punishment system is redundant.
I really don't know what drove the designers to come up with this concept, but it really comes off as an anti-atheist element (and I'm saying this even though I'm not an atheist) |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 11 Feb 2020 16:29:23 |
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Grumpy Hamatula
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2020 : 16:35:19
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Irennan,
That's an excellent point about anti-atheism. I have no way of knowing, and I don't agree with the approach, but perhaps it seemed to the designers that gods who routinely manifest in verifiable ways would preclude the existence of atheist mortals? Perhaps, to avoid that problem, it would be a reasonable workaround to say that regardless of a person's professed faith or lack thereof, the god whose goals they advanced most in life might be inclined to claim them.
In addition, Ilmater, IIRC, tends to favor the martyred, the abandoned, and those in distress, so I could see him advocating for those mortals who embody his values regardless of their particular faith or faithlessness. |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2020 : 17:35:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy Hamatula
Irennan,
That's an excellent point about anti-atheism. I have no way of knowing, and I don't agree with the approach, but perhaps it seemed to the designers that gods who routinely manifest in verifiable ways would preclude the existence of atheist mortals?
A FR atheist might be someone who acknowledges that the gods exist (well, duh, doing otherwise would be as stupid as saying that fire doesn't exist), but doesn't want to worship them .
quote:
Perhaps, to avoid that problem, it would be a reasonable workaround to say that regardless of a person's professed faith or lack thereof, the god whose goals they advanced most in life might be inclined to claim them.
Yeah, that's how I have it.
quote:
In addition, Ilmater, IIRC, tends to favor the martyred, the abandoned, and those in distress, so I could see him advocating for those mortals who embody his values regardless of their particular faith or faithlessness.
And not only Ilmater. Do you picture, say, Torm going to someone who spent their life protecting people and acting honorably, and saying "You're a cool person... too bad you didn't worship me. Sorry mate, sucks to be you." Or any deity who values freedom of expression, even if they aren't really good.
The Wall made sense only as a cruel punishment created by Myrkul, because he's cruel, but with Kelemvor replacing him there was no reason to keep it (in 5e the situation is a bit blurried, since Myrkul is the god of death, but Kel remains the judge of the dead, so the point stands). My memory is foggy, but in one of the followup books to the Avatar Series, they came up with the explanation that people started to become uncaring of their life, and going on suicidal quests, because Kelemvor would judge them worthy and grant them a good afterlife. However, that made 0 sense, because that's NOT how people act, unless they have problems of some kind. The argument might be that it could encourage people who are already considering suicide to act on it, but if the afterlife is a certainity, that would happen regardless--they would convert to a nice deity that speaks in some way to them (as to not be judged false) and then act on their suicidal thoughts anyway.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 11 Feb 2020 17:44:40 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2020 : 17:46:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Those who are afraid of judgement and don't have enough faith in the deities may very well become devils.
There is a never-ending need for more devils to stem the flow of demons that would otherwise flood the Hells from the Abyss in the Blood War, and go on to spread to the other planes.
But to become a devil you have to become a petitioner of Baator, which won't happen if your soul is dissolved into oblivion by the wall. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Grumpy Hamatula
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2020 : 17:57:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
A FR atheist might be someone who acknowledges that the gods exist (well, duh, doing otherwise would be as stupid as saying that fire doesn't exist), but doesn't want to worship them .
That makes sense. Perhaps that was a possibility that the designers overlooked at a certain point, or perhaps it was a culture-bound assumption that the setting's faiths needed to include some kind of punishment for atheism because some Earth traditions do so. I'd love to know what the rationale was at TSR when the idea was first introduced. It might still be a troublesome point of lore, but at least knowing why it happened would be interesting.
quote:
And not only Ilmater. Do you picture, say, Torm going to someone who spent their life protecting people and acting honorably, and saying "You're a cool person... too bad you didn't worship me. Sorry mate, sucks to be you." Or any deity who values freedom of expression, even if they aren't really good.
Torm and other gods certainly make sense in that regard. Ilmater simply came to mind first. Indeed, I could see any god who values what a particular mortal has done saying something like, "So maybe you didn't acknowledge me, but you're one of mine anyway because you walked the walk."
I'd have to double-check, but if memory serves, that was generally how things worked in Planescape in the absence of devoted service to a particular deity. Souls ended up going to whomever or wherever their nature and deeds inclined them, I think, which makes more sense to me overall.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2020 : 18:28:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
My memory is foggy, but in one of the followup books to the Avatar Series, they came up with the explanation that people started to become uncaring of their life, and going on suicidal quests, because Kelemvor would judge them worthy and grant them a good afterlife. However, that made 0 sense, because that's NOT how people act, unless they have problems of some kind. The argument might be that it could encourage people who are already considering suicide to act on it, but if the afterlife is a certainity, that would happen regardless--they would convert to a nice deity that speaks in some way to them (as to not be judged false) and then act on their suicidal thoughts anyway.
It wasn't as much that people became uncaring about life, as much as it was that they knew they'd be rewarded in the afterlife and were thus more willing to take risks doing heroic deeds... But Kelemvor was slapped down for this and stopped doing it. This -- like the whole mess of Mystra 2.0 favoring good spellcasters -- was a plot point in one novel, was ended in the one novel it was intro'ed in, and never had any effect in game terms. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2020 : 18:53:35
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As I've understood it, even if you don't actively worship any deity, as long as you don't deny them, you'll still go to the afterlife of the deity your particular outlook most closely matches.
The Faithless are those that actively deny the existence of gods... Which really doesn't make sense, in the Realms. But if it happens, then you have to have something to do with them, since they can't go to any particular deity's realm.
That's not to say that I agree with the idea of torturing them until they dissolve, though... I'd say it would make more sense to either distribute them as some sort of mindless servitor or reincarnate them. Reincarnation might be considered a reward, but it's a painless solution. Rendering the dead mindless is a punishment, but it's a one-time thing, allows them to serve deities, and keeps them the ultimate reward of joining with a deity.
Part of the reason that I came up with my theory of the Wall being some sort of battery is that it gives some purpose to the Wall, aside from long-term punishment of the Faithless. (It also avoids the question of what, exactly, the souls become -- even if they're somehow broken down into tiny bits, something this has to happen to those bits) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11859 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2020 : 00:42:39
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| Personally, I just don't see that many people being that hard core of a non-believer that many folks would be added. Maybe during the era of the Netherese and the Imaskari, when people thought they could become gods and challenge them.... maybe back then the wall was created to discourage this mindset. Then again, when I think of the Abeirans coming over, there was probably an influx of folks once again getting added to the wall. This of course makes me wonder what happened with souls in Abeir (were they treated like spirits that merged with the land, etc....). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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AJA
Senior Scribe
USA
774 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2020 : 01:06:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
like the whole mess of Mystra 2.0 favoring good spellcasters -- was a plot point in one novel, was ended in the one novel it was intro'ed in, and never had any effect in game terms.
....but has been a fixture in the most ignorant and infantile anti-Realms internet bromides ever since. 
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AJA
YAFRP
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2482 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2020 : 01:12:56
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Then again, when I think of the Abeirans coming over, there was probably an influx of folks once again getting added to the wall. This of course makes me wonder what happened with souls in Abeir (were they treated like spirits that merged with the land, etc....).
Well, there is a talk with Ed on Twitter, and I guess like the fate of the Abeirans (including present day descendants) is left a mystery. But, it seems Kelemvor doesn't judge them. They just pass to their Abeiran afterlife.
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1208776023871016960?s=19
Now, I have a theory. If you have access to the 4e Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, you should check the Steelsky Liberator paragon path, there is a mention about a certain divine energy that helps people under draconic or elemental tyranny...
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Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2020 : 01:42:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Then again, when I think of the Abeirans coming over, there was probably an influx of folks once again getting added to the wall. This of course makes me wonder what happened with souls in Abeir (were they treated like spirits that merged with the land, etc....).
Well, there is a talk with Ed on Twitter, and I guess like the fate of the Abeirans (including present day descendants) is left a mystery. But, it seems Kelemvor doesn't judge them. They just pass to their Abeiran afterlife.
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1208776023871016960?s=19
Now, I have a theory. If you have access to the 4e Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, you should check the Steelsky Liberator paragon path, there is a mention about a certain divine energy that helps people under draconic or elemental tyranny...
Amazing catch, Zeromaru! Do you have a theory about who it is? |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Storyteller Hero
Learned Scribe
USA
329 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2020 : 02:56:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
Those who are afraid of judgement and don't have enough faith in the deities may very well become devils.
There is a never-ending need for more devils to stem the flow of demons that would otherwise flood the Hells from the Abyss in the Blood War, and go on to spread to the other planes.
But to become a devil you have to become a petitioner of Baator, which won't happen if your soul is dissolved into oblivion by the wall.
Souls don't get judged instantly when arriving at Kelemvor's Fugue Plane. There's a waiting period in the barrens outside the city where they can self-reflect and be approached by devils.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2020 : 03:25:42
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quote:
Originally posted by AJA
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
like the whole mess of Mystra 2.0 favoring good spellcasters -- was a plot point in one novel, was ended in the one novel it was intro'ed in, and never had any effect in game terms.
....but has been a fixture in the most ignorant and infantile anti-Realms internet bromides ever since.
I almost dislike the book, simply because of those arguments. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2020 : 03:29:30
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It's not too dissimilar from other religions. Believe the faith and worship the deity and be rewarded in some sort of happy afterlife, or fail to do so and suffer some sort of eternal damnation. The opinions of atheists are irrelevant to gods, all that matters (to the gods) is that the atheists are yet another flavour of nonbelievers.
The Faithless can still redeem themselves by embracing a recognized deity, if they choose.
They can still be claimed by interested deities, if they go willingly.
They are also offered pacts and bargains by fiends, not a pleasant fate but at least it's another choice.
Only the most absolutely irredeemable, unworthy, or stubbornly willful souls would finally get stuffed into the Wall. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11859 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2020 : 04:02:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Then again, when I think of the Abeirans coming over, there was probably an influx of folks once again getting added to the wall. This of course makes me wonder what happened with souls in Abeir (were they treated like spirits that merged with the land, etc....).
Well, there is a talk with Ed on Twitter, and I guess like the fate of the Abeirans (including present day descendants) is left a mystery. But, it seems Kelemvor doesn't judge them. They just pass to their Abeiran afterlife.
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1208776023871016960?s=19
Now, I have a theory. If you have access to the 4e Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, you should check the Steelsky Liberator paragon path, there is a mention about a certain divine energy that helps people under draconic or elemental tyranny...
This?
Steelsky liberators draw upon the power of an ancient divine blessing granted to the mortals who suffered under dragons long ago. No one knows what god or being created this blessing, but over time it has grown stronger and stronger. Each mortal soul that suffers under draconic oppression lends the weight of its sorrow and outrage to this mystic force; the harder the Abeiran dragon lords tried to eradicate the liberators, the stronger they made their enemies.
Also, given some class features say
Focused into your blade, the ancient power that shaped Abeir’s
skies shakes Abeir’s would-be masters.
then it might imply that this guy is the source of the energy
The metallic sky is due to arambar, the residual energy of an ancient primoridial. Arambar was a Dawn Titan whose power was so vast that even in death, its memory visibly persists across Returned Abeir.
So, perhaps Arambar was sucking up soul energy in Abeir and some folks learned to tap it (possibly with or without his consent, who knows). But basically a "dawn titan" died and his residual energy surrounded the world.
You know, on pg 212 of the 4e FRCG it mentions some dragons drawing on Arambar to get prophetic dreams, etc... Sometimes though they're turned into wraithlike "ghost dragons". While not definitively the same thing, its kind of interesting to me that the dragons in realmspace related to the world of Coliar (which has "earth islands" which are basically orbiting earthmotes) eventually reach a state where they become essentially ageless incorporeal dragons. There as well, dragons are kind of revered by the inhabitants. It could be interesting if that "world" were filled with an atmospheric energy similar to steelsky, and perhaps their planet was once a solid planet that was decimated.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2482 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2020 : 15:10:19
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Yeah, that one. It seems that the Abeiran afterlife (or at least a part of it) is some gestalt pool of divine energy born from the spirits of the dead fusing with/powering up/being eat by Arambar, who in turn powers up the individuals who fight to overthrow dragon tyrants.
Now that I think about this, there is tgat Wandering Stones story in the Realms of the Death anthology...
As for dragons, there is also the anime thing and their unique form of afterlife detailed in the 2e Draconomicon, that I guess applies to the dragons of Abeir and Coliar. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 12 Feb 2020 15:12:15 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1544 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2020 : 23:11:36
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The Wall was created by Myrkul. The most logical explanation is that the powers who opposed him couldn't countermand his judgement, as he was god of the dead and was acting within the bounds of his authority.
Myrkul interpreting his job in the cruelest manner possible was still doing his job and not treading on anyone's toes, and as a necromancer in life, he probably considered it one gigantic experiment into the nature of souls. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3807 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2020 : 00:11:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
My memory is foggy, but in one of the followup books to the Avatar Series, they came up with the explanation that people started to become uncaring of their life, and going on suicidal quests, because Kelemvor would judge them worthy and grant them a good afterlife. However, that made 0 sense, because that's NOT how people act, unless they have problems of some kind. The argument might be that it could encourage people who are already considering suicide to act on it, but if the afterlife is a certainity, that would happen regardless--they would convert to a nice deity that speaks in some way to them (as to not be judged false) and then act on their suicidal thoughts anyway.
It wasn't as much that people became uncaring about life, as much as it was that they knew they'd be rewarded in the afterlife and were thus more willing to take risks doing heroic deeds... But Kelemvor was slapped down for this and stopped doing it. This -- like the whole mess of Mystra 2.0 favoring good spellcasters -- was a plot point in one novel, was ended in the one novel it was intro'ed in, and never had any effect in game terms.
I misworded my statement, but that's pretty much what I meant. Idk, people getting reckless and prone to risk their lives all of sudden, just because they know a good afterlife is more likely, is not how people act. A person that wasn't already reckless doesn't become so just because they know the god of the dead likes heroism.
This also raises 2 questions:
1)If the wall is supposed to be a rather obscure concept, how comes everyone knew about it. Were they warned?
2)How does Kel's decision even affect living people? You are still claimed by your god if you die, no matter what Kel says, so I don't see this as having any impact.
In fact, for the sake of the argument made in the book (Kel's decision made people more reckless), we can divide all people in 3 categories: people who are prone to risk their lives in a good action (lets call it "heroic") for a good afterlife, people who are not, and people who are on the fence, or have at least a small degree of undecisiveness.
People who are ready to be reckless for a good afterlife would still be reckless in that sense--and likely to get that afterlife--regardless of what the god of the dead says/does. That's because, if afterlife by heroism is their endgame, they're likely to already worship a heroic deity, and to be prone to put their life on the line for the deity's cause. So--in case of death--they would be claimed by their deity and get the nice "paradise" no matter what. Even if Myrkul was still the god of the dead. This kind of people would therefore be unaffected by Kel's decision.
On the other hand, people who are not ready to risk their lives for a good afterlife are very unlikely to change their mind. That's because if you hold your skin dear, no god of death's decision would change that. Even if someone among them, or among the people who already are on the fence, changed their mind, that would not be due to Kel's decision, because if afterlife by heroism became their endgame, they would start working to get that regardless of what the god of death said. They would start worshipping a heroic deity, and what I said in the paragraph above would apply to them.
So, Kel's decision would have 0 impact on living people; at best it would grant a few faithless a good place after death as a reward for nice actions, which doesn't have much of an impact on the Realms as a whole, let alone on the planes.
Really, the only people alive who *might* be affected by this are those having suicidal thoughts. But then, the certainty of an afterlife would be a motivator regardless of the god of death, as I mentioned in my previous reply.
Idk, to me this looked like an explanation to justify for the reinstatement of the wall, but it doesn't make much sense at all. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 13 Feb 2020 00:41:06 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11859 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2020 : 00:26:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Yeah, that one. It seems that the Abeiran afterlife (or at least a part of it) is some gestalt pool of divine energy born from the spirits of the dead fusing with/powering up/being eat by Arambar, who in turn powers up the individuals who fight to overthrow dragon tyrants.
Now that I think about this, there is tgat Wandering Stones story in the Realms of the Death anthology...
As for dragons, there is also the anime thing and their unique form of afterlife detailed in the 2e Draconomicon, that I guess applies to the dragons of Abeir and Coliar.
Wandering Stones.... earthmotes…. rotating earth islands forming a "planet".... could all be some commonality that beings like Arambar have suffused areas of Abeir or places like Coliar. Perhaps on Coliar they fought the Titans and imprisoned them. Perhaps they killed them. Maybe some other whackadoodle theory that's fun to pontificate on.
I still like the idea that the Aearee came from Coliar travelling on earthmotes/earth islands that somehow they separated out (I don't know why, but I like that concept better than it being that Torilian Aearee travelled to Coliar). Also, the idea that they brought the dragons with them. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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St3v3nMC198666
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2020 : 23:24:09
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"I don't know which me that I love, I got no reflection." ~ Marilyn Manson & The Spooky Kids (Comes to mind once more with your curiosity in the mix...
quote:
Originally posted by keftiu
This is more of a meta-discussion than a proper lore one, but I wanted the thoughts of the sages on this: what purpose does the Wall serve?
It seems like an odd moral judgment to make - revere a deity in life or face what is essentially an eternal punishment - and I was curious if anyone has ever heard reasoning from the authors why it’s a feature of the setting to begin with. I’d love to get a read on how everyone here feels about it as well, and if anyone discards it or has done a campaign perhaps asking questions about it and/or replacing or destroying it.
We are considering false gods, goddesses & each as one hence counter-intuitive this, that or the other in a delusional attempt to beseech aid from any & all who just-so-happen to be transcended at all. Psionic capacity being what it is. Much like the peanut-butter on a mouse-trap in-stead of peanut-butter on a snare. If the mouse fails...it will most likely NOT survive where-as the snare will teach in & of it's self presence or no. |
< ( _ + * = _ + * ) > |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2020 : 00:33:32
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I think that the main issues with the Faithless and the False are that there is no real-world comparison.
In the Realms, the gods are REAL, you see them they do things they are active in everyone's life to some extent. Therefore everyone KNOWS the gods are real. If you're a farmer, the Chauntea has your back. You'd be a fool not to offer a prayer when planting. If you're a soldier then look there's several stalwart deities to choose from. There is a god or goddess for everyone.
The faithless are those that, knowing the gods exist, choose to shun the gods outright anyways. Like many of the ancient Netherese who denied the divinity of the gods and therefore offered them no praise. Now the reason they go to the wall seems simple to me - souls have to go somewhere. Like gods they are REAL in this game AND they have power. The whole system of the gods is based on the balance of this power so they had to decide what to do with those souls that "belonged" to none of them. "Just put them in a pile out back." The pile became a wall after a couple million years. :P
The false are those that betrayed the god they previously were somehow sworn to. These get the punishments.
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Copper Elven Vampire
Master of Realmslore
1078 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2020 : 03:01:37
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It's quite dumb to place the atheist PC's and NPC's at some waiting-room wall. But I understand no need to create a realm just for atheists. I am a Atheist IRL 46 years old and an avid FR geek. I see no need for a wall for the faithless. It's broken.
In my campaigns.... we leave it up to the gods to decide who gets that particular card. A Elf, human, Gnoll, Gnome, whatever.... that doesn't have a deity goes to a wall in death? Seems cruel and broken to me.
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keftiu
Senior Scribe
656 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2020 : 08:02:25
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think that the main issues with the Faithless and the False are that there is no real-world comparison.
In the Realms, the gods are REAL, you see them they do things they are active in everyone's life to some extent. Therefore everyone KNOWS the gods are real. If you're a farmer, the Chauntea has your back. You'd be a fool not to offer a prayer when planting. If you're a soldier then look there's several stalwart deities to choose from. There is a god or goddess for everyone.
The faithless are those that, knowing the gods exist, choose to shun the gods outright anyways. Like many of the ancient Netherese who denied the divinity of the gods and therefore offered them no praise. Now the reason they go to the wall seems simple to me - souls have to go somewhere. Like gods they are REAL in this game AND they have power. The whole system of the gods is based on the balance of this power so they had to decide what to do with those souls that "belonged" to none of them. "Just put them in a pile out back." The pile became a wall after a couple million years. :P
The false are those that betrayed the god they previously were somehow sworn to. These get the punishments.
I think you're reading a lot of antagonism into a choice not to praise, revere, or seek aid from a god. Sure, the gods are real, but why does that mean any given person needs to be beholden to one? Someone who lives an honest, humble life could very well see no need to beseech great cosmic beings, whether because they're content with the flow of things as is or simply don't feel the need.
Under the current system, someone who has a normal childhood, learns a craft, and works it until they die, making no enemies, committing no sins, and otherwise being wholly unobjectionable faces an eternity mortared into a wall of essentially-damned souls until their identity slowly bleeds from them over the ages, just because they never asked for Chauntea's aid in the field or Gond's blessing at the anvil. |
4e fangirl. Here to queer up the Realms. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2020 : 08:58:19
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The Wall might not be such a cruel punishment for some. Especially those who would otherwise endure an eternity of Shar's oblivion, Loviatar's whippings, Cyric's madness, Asmodeus's infernal hospitality, etc.
At least The Wall places you in contact with like-minded souls. It can be a place of insightful contemplation and informative discussion.
It's not like they kick or throw things at The Wall, set it afire, or urinate on it. It's simply ignored (as much as possible) so the souls within it can enjoy the afterlife they've so rightfully earned. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Topic |
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Why the Wall of the Faithless?
