| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Roewyn |
Posted - 26 Apr 2004 : 20:51:19
If a greater demon or devil find a way in to Toril, what would be possible plots they would be likely to chase?
Are they simply about ruling Toril or destroying it?
or
Do they focus to destoy an arch enemy because of a reason?
Would they be ok about entering Toril or would they want to return back?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 00:00:56
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
Roewyn, the best tome you can have on demons and devils, is the 2e "Planescape" sourcebook, Faces of Evil: The Fiends. It is considered by most planar fans to be the best resource on fiends.
However, that tome can be very hard to find. As such, GRR have recently released Book of Fiends, which is a 3.5e update for their previously released double sourcebooks Legions of Hell and Armies of the Abyss. Both of these are also good fiend resources, and they are also more readily available.
There are a few other devil/demon books on the market, but most don't approach the level of detail of the tomes I've already mentioned.
Aside from all this, there's the various WotC monster books. Most, like MM, and MMII, the Fiend Folio, and even the Book of Vile Darkness all cover demons and devils to some degree.
Is Book of Fiends any good?
I can answer this, since it's likely that the Lady K was peaking at my copy anyway.
And yes, 'tis very good. A little generic in parts because it is a third-party resource, but it definitely adds some intriguing new options for both demons and devils, and their home planes. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 17:11:49
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Kazandra
Roewyn, the best tome you can have on demons and devils, is the 2e "Planescape" sourcebook, Faces of Evil: The Fiends. It is considered by most planar fans to be the best resource on fiends.
However, that tome can be very hard to find. As such, GRR have recently released Book of Fiends, which is a 3.5e update for their previously released double sourcebooks Legions of Hell and Armies of the Abyss. Both of these are also good fiend resources, and they are also more readily available.
There are a few other devil/demon books on the market, but most don't approach the level of detail of the tomes I've already mentioned.
Aside from all this, there's the various WotC monster books. Most, like MM, and MMII, the Fiend Folio, and even the Book of Vile Darkness all cover demons and devils to some degree.
Is Book of Fiends any good? |
| Portella |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 22:25:24
one of the main ones that i have seen is to annex toril as another layer on the abyss. (the layers is in the abyss were material planes at one time) |
| Draezen |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 20:32:56
quote:
Graz'zt's highly secretive and deceptive nature makes that impossible for primes and planars to know for sure. There has been speculation in the past by certain learned greybeards that Graz'zt is in fact not a Tanar'ri lord, but something else. Graz'zt's past is as fractured as the planes themselves, and it is said by some of the wisest (?) arch-devils that Graz'zt may even be a fallen deity.
Investigations by the Dark Eight have uncovered several ancient and tattered manuscripts across many Material Plane worlds that all make reference to a deity that seems to much the description of Graz'zt's true form. The youngest manuscript dates to several millenia past, and is believed to have been written just after the Reckoning. This in itself lends validity to the rumor that Graz'zt is actually a Baatezu, and would explain his "fall from grace" in the Nine Hells power pyramid so to speak that Asmodeus once made reference to.
Got a source for that? |
| Draezen |
Posted - 03 Mar 2009 : 20:28:52
quote:
Dicefreaks' "The Gates of Hell" has Asmodeus at a CR of 81. That is pretty tough........... IMC, Satan is a CR 91 and Lucifer is a CR 99.
Not in official DF lore.
Lucifer, who was not given stats, was merely the first avatar of the Overlord of Hell, an overdeity who formed the Circle of Law or the Circle of Three together with the Supreme Virtue of Heaven and the Primogenitor of Nirvana. As Lucifer grew too famous (infamous), a minor duke appeared (Asmodeus) and usurped the Serpent's Throne. Everyone thought Asmodeus killed Lucifer, but essentially they were one and the same. |
| John Smith |
Posted - 02 Mar 2009 : 23:27:26
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Remember though DDH_101, the Tanar'ri Lords, and Arch-Devils that are detailed in the BoVD have been significantly "de-powered" since the high-magic days of 2e. They are no longer as 'great' as they once were  .
At least in published lore...
Dicefreaks' "The Gates of Hell" has Asmodeus at a CR of 81. That is pretty tough........... IMC, Satan is a CR 91 and Lucifer is a CR 99. |
| Kilvan |
Posted - 17 Jan 2009 : 13:55:54
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Gargauth can improve his status if he can kill other deities and take their portfolios. He has the same opportunity to gain power as other demigods.
I agree with you about him going after Cyric and Shar since he opposes them, which I find strange since he's also an evil deity. Also, I think Gargauth is scheming to destroy Siamorphe because he enjoys corrupting people of virtue like her worshipers who are mostly nobles.
Just wondering -- now that Asmodeus is a god himself, what does that mean for Gargauth? Is he still a lesser deity? Or was he devoured by Asmodeus so the Lord of the Nine could gain his collected divine energy (and worshippers) to help elevate himself?
Hey, maybe that's why Asmo sent Gargauth into the realms in the first place!
Hmm never thought about that. Now that you mention it, it would be very Asmodeus-like. If he absorbed Gargauth's essence after getting Azuth's, that would help to explain his greater god status. I'm still hopin for a book like the sixth chapter of the avatar serie: the Spellplague, where it all comes to light. |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 16 Jan 2009 : 16:56:30
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Gargauth can improve his status if he can kill other deities and take their portfolios. He has the same opportunity to gain power as other demigods.
I agree with you about him going after Cyric and Shar since he opposes them, which I find strange since he's also an evil deity. Also, I think Gargauth is scheming to destroy Siamorphe because he enjoys corrupting people of virtue like her worshipers who are mostly nobles.
Just wondering -- now that Asmodeus is a god himself, what does that mean for Gargauth? Is he still a lesser deity? Or was he devoured by Asmodeus so the Lord of the Nine could gain his collected divine energy (and worshippers) to help elevate himself?
Hey, maybe that's why Asmo sent Gargauth into the realms in the first place! |
| Zanan |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 13:58:55
Regarding slay-able fiend lords and gods ... I'm afraid (MHO, of course) that 4E is meant to be exactly that, letting 30th level PC loose at all of those mentioned above, giving them as much fun as possible.
BTW, the way Szass Tam simply "summoned" Bane* (note: no word of avatar et al) and bullied** him about shows a way of how designers may like to view their future super-heroes.
*(The Haunted Lands II, just after Mystra's death)
** maybe that's a bit strong a word, but it felt like that nonetheless |
| Na-Gang |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 11:20:56
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
Originally posted by Roewyn
There was an arch-devil banished form hell who is a deity now. Gargauth is his name, I suppose.
he should be a demi god now but can he organize assault to improve his status among deties.
Are there any ideas about Gargauth and his possible schemes?
Hmm, doesn't Gargauth actually spend most of his time trying to corrupt the followers of other evil gods? Aparently working on the basis of "this way, all those paladins will mind their own busness while I take over this cult of Cyric and that temple of Loviatar."
How many paladins will help the local Loviatans fight off diabolic assault, after all?
The last campaign I ran pretty much centred on Gargauth and his past on-off alliance with Graz'zt.
It seemed logical to me, given their dispositions and their relative dissimilarities from their fellow Demon Princes and Archdevils that they would seek allies in the enemy camp as it were. I had it that this alliance was what eventually led to Gargauth's expulsion from the Nine Hells by a coalition of the other Archdevils in Lawful outrage at his betrayal of their standards and rules.
In trying to gain power for himself in Faerun, he tried to usurp the worship of the Yuan-Ti away from Merrshaulk and so the god of the snakefolk created the Mhairshaulk Emeralds and spread them throughout Yuan-Ti holdings to act specifically as a warding against Gargauth.
Gargauth poses as the Seer of Procalith to persuade adventurers to go into the Black Jungles and find or destroy the Mhairshaulk Emeralds for him. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 05:50:31
I'm a big fan of the "Mortal souls power the planes" school of thought. I'm also a big fan of the whole "For every possibility there is a Prime in existence" school of thought. I like the idea that while corrupting souls, or trading some being a favor for some souls, are great fuel for the plane (and the lions share of the power to the being who gets said souls) there's nothing like a magic rich world (ie. FR) to gain an edge. The big problem with magic rich worlds is that they generally have a robust security system, personally, I think that's the gods (with AO being maintenance guy for reality).
I really like the idea that each plane in each prime is a sort of avatar of that plane, of a sort. That the central planes are like the deity to FR's version of the Nine Hells. I think that this sort of model really allows for a connection between primes while keeping each prime's cosmology unique and allows for a lot of freedom for players and DMs. A DM could allow a party to take down a mighty hefty being and still have that being be able to work through proxy, though such efforts would cost.
That's the way I roll anyhow.
And that really applies to all outsiders, their all after souls in the end. The good ones are just nice about it, well, some of them are. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 10 Oct 2008 : 00:57:41
So, for some musings on demon lords and their power levels, I really, really loved the later chapters of the Savage Tide adventure path from the last year of Dungeon Magazine's run. Spoilers for ST AP:
Demogorgon, as the final "boss," was a nigh unkillable CR 33 (for the assumed 20th level party), but there were several things the PCs could trigger to drop his CR and temporarily weaken him enough for the PCs to actually be able to have a shot at him.
Things like allowing Gwenharyf (sp?) of the Eladrins and Orcus into his domain to battle him, killing off some of his aspects that he had invested his power in, etc. |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 23:49:10
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
IMHO, no deity nor abyssal lord nor archfiend is in need of stats though. They should stay well clear of any PC attempt on their lifes. If anything, I would use the F&A-series' divine avatars to bash this notion into the PCs minds.
I'd say that while it should be possible to slay a demon lord or archdevil in-game, it should be just nigh impossible. At least as I'd handle it, though waaaay back when I was first starting out there was this one fun dungeon crawl some pals & I got in where we wound up fighting it out with all the archdevils listed in the original hardbound Monster Manual... It was a TPK, but we made those sulphur-sucking devils pay for it!
quote:
As for the topic ... brachina devils (FC II) and lilitu demons (FC I) would make glorius villains for the time just after Spellplague, when the clergies were in disarray. Then again, these fiends will always make great villains. I for one would favor a devil (erinnye) lead tribe/horde of hobgoblins over orcs et al when it comes to large scale events.
Heh, part of me wants to run an adventure/write a story in which a brachina and a lilitu are competing to see who can corrupt a lecherous PC cleric first, and to see just how far everything can get before someone hits the armageddon button. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 16:49:30
On a sidenote ... The Book of Vile Darkness was published two months after the Epic Level Handbook and one can assume that the author of the former had little chance to include all the neat epic level stuff with their demon lords. Then again, epic level stuff never was that well received amongst gamers.
Updated and more powerful versions of a number of demon and devil lords were presented in the Fiendish Codices (Fiendish Codex I, and II, that is), as well as in some Dragons which followed soon after (e.g. Graz'zt and Malcanthet). Lesser versions,which might be called avatars but were called aspects were published in the web-enhancements to these books.
IMHO, no deity nor abyssal lord nor archfiend is in need of stats though. They should stay well clear of any PC attempt on their lifes. If anything, I would use the F&A-series' divine avatars to bash this notion into the PCs minds.
As for the topic ... brachina devils (FC II) and lilitu demons (FC I) would make glorius villains for the time just after Spellplague, when the clergies were in disarray. Then again, these fiends will always make great villains. I for one would favor a devil (erinnye) lead tribe/horde of hobgoblins over orcs et al when it comes to large scale events. |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 16:30:01
quote:
Originally posted by Roewyn
There was an arch-devil banished form hell who is a deity now. Gargauth is his name, I suppose.
he should be a demi god now but can he organize assault to improve his status among deties.
Are there any ideas about Gargauth and his possible schemes?
Hmm, doesn't Gargauth actually spend most of his time trying to corrupt the followers of other evil gods? Aparently working on the basis of "this way, all those paladins will mind their own busness while I take over this cult of Cyric and that temple of Loviatar."
How many paladins will help the local Loviatans fight off diabolic assault, after all? |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 16:26:32
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
Quoting Arravis's PDF on the Nine Hells:
Serpent’s Coil:
Brutally repressed rumors suggest that there is more to Asmodeus then he admits. The story goes that the true form of Asmodeus actually resides in the deepest rift of Nessus called the Serpent’s Coil. The shape seen by all the other devils of the Nine Hells in the fortress of Malsheem is actually a highly advanced use of the Project Image spell or an avatar of some sort. The secret rift, formed by Asmodeus’s plummeting body when he first arrived in the Nine Hells, spirals inward over the course of hundreds of miles. His titanic, miles-long form still rests here… and his wounds have yet to heal. The acid-black blood pools in the hollows of the rift, a substance fouler then foul. From where fell Asmodeus? Was he once a greater deity cast down from Elysium or Celestia, or is he older yet, as the rumor hints? Perhaps he represents some fundamental entity whose mere existence pulls the multiverse into its current configuration. Nobody who tells the story of Asmodeus’s “true” form lives more then 24 hours after repeating it aloud. But dusty scrolls in hard-to-reach libraries (such as Demogorgon’s citadel in the Abyss) yet record this knowledge. Unless it is pure fancy, of course.
I hope this helps to answer your question. 
Nice work, though I prefer the version given in the Fiendish Codexes, where the devils were originally warrior angels* sent to fight the demons on their own ground. Then the good gods abandoned them -- "You can handle this, right, Asmodeus? Of course you can. Now pardon me, I've got to appear on a roll of bread in Waterdeep." -- and the devils slowly took on more and more of the aspect of the demonic opposition to fight them.
So now the devils want to either destroy or enslave the demons, so they can return to ther Upper Planes and beat the shinola out of the gods for abandoning them.
(It fits in with the original real-world version of Asmodeus' name, Aeshma Deva, lit. 'Angel of Fury', from very old Persian mythology. I'm not talking pre-Islamic, I'm talking pre-Cyrus the Great; about 2000 BC or earlier.)
That said, I do like the idea of the various demons and devils scheming against each other in the real world. To me it's just fun for PCs to find out that they were being sent against all those demon cults by a devil (or even another demon), who now wants to 'recruit' them. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 May 2004 : 03:12:48
The battle between the Twin Serpents was simply the result of their differing alignments. They were the first moral beings afterall. Many greybeards believe that they were responsible for starting the conflict between Good and Evil...disrupting the overall balance that once held these primal forces in check.
I've spoken about the belief in one supreme planar being here before, although I can't remember in which scroll.
Asmodeus, also known as Ashmadia, most likely originated from the Persian Aeshma-deva ("demon of waith"). As for his origin in the fantasy setting. Mr. Gygax spoke of this once, so I'll try and track down the source and get back to you.
|
| Roewyn |
Posted - 08 May 2004 : 03:00:20
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Jazirian didn't "whack" Asmodeus. The battle between the Twin Serpents did not result in a clear victor. When the Outlands and the rest of the Outer Planes were formed, both Jazirian and Asmodeus (Ahriman) were sent to their respective places of power to lick their wounds so to speak. Now granted, Asmodeus was gravely injured by the battle, but his injuries were also partly the result of his 'fall' into Nessus.
Jazirian is a deity, in fact she is the deity and mother of the Couatls.
Jazirian wasn't really a part of Planescape, any more than the pseudo-judeo-christian cosmology presented in the Guide to Hell was, nor would he have been statted if he was (PS didn't give stats for gods).
But I am well familiar with this alternate hell now, having discussed it many times on forums, mailing lists and elsewhere.
So, she is a couatl deity, and had that status before the GtH promoted her to creator-deity as a part of the great serpent of law. If I remember correctly, her realm is on the fifth layer of Mount Celestia (at least in PS), and there was little cause for a casual observer to see in her any sort of anathema to the Lord of Hell.
In the Guide to Hell cosmology, Jazirian is the opposite of Ahriman, and they are the two (apparently) most important gods. Law is more important than chaos (since the battle revolves mostly around the good/evil axis), and Mt. Celestia and Baator (usually referred to as 'the Seaven Heavens' and 'The Nine Hells', or simply heaven and hell in this cosmology) are the most important planes.
I just wanted to point out that this is not the way Planescape handled it. In fact, it never even mentioned the Lord of the Ninth's name...that was all kept dark. And Jazirian was just another deity.
Jazirian is from Monster Mythology, and has a fascinating realm detailed in Planes of Law. It exists in an airy void that visitors have to leap from the mountaintop to reach, and it's the only portal to the next layer. Word-related magic cast there becomes living creatures.
Jazirian is hermaphroditic, male and female combined. The nagas, however, see Jazirian as male and the sometime consort of Shekinester, their triple goddess. Parrafaire, the naga god of guardians, is supposedly Jazirian and Shekinester's child.
The myth of Jazirian (Spenta Mainyu, Good Spirit as the Persians said) and Ahriman (Angra Mainyu, Bad Spirit) treats Jazirian as all female, the yin to Ahriman's yang - or, more accurately, vice versa. This is, however, a simplification, like the naga myth. Jazirian is a complete god, like Io, opposites united. He/she is the lawful good incarnation of the World Serpent, the primal reptillian infinity, the loop that surrounds and defines all that is. His opposite is Merrshaulk, the corrupt, sleeping World Serpent worshipped by the yuan-ti. Merrshaulk is chaotic evil to Jazirian's lawful good, just as Ahriman/Asmodeus is lawful evil.
Probably, there are chaotic good World Serpent fragments as well.
The Lady of Pain is not a leader to them, she is merely the keeper of Sigil - nothing more, nothing less.
The Planescape setting is deliberately vague concerning the nature of these mysteries. It's to allow DMs to forge their own cosmological planar history and therefoe make it easier to incorporate into any campaign setting whether official or homebrew.
Well I think everything but one is clerified.
Why did asmodeus and jaziran fight?
Well I m mistaken about Lady of Pain but even if the name was incorrect there should be one supreme being among the planar deities.
I generally wanna think everything as a whole so I mix things up. But I suppose I m right about a planar cosmology.
Is there any knowledge about where Asmo first regin, Sage? I don't give a damn about any projection of any religion in fantasy role playing so are there any clear routes to rumours of truth at least?
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 May 2004 : 02:37:02
Jazirian didn't "whack" Asmodeus. The battle between the Twin Serpents did not result in a clear victor. When the Outlands and the rest of the Outer Planes were formed, both Jazirian and Asmodeus (Ahriman) were sent to their respective places of power to lick their wounds so to speak. Now granted, Asmodeus was gravely injured by the battle, but his injuries were also partly the result of his 'fall' into Nessus.
Jazirian is a deity, in fact she is the deity and mother of the Couatls.
Jazirian wasn't really a part of Planescape, any more than the pseudo-judeo-christian cosmology presented in the Guide to Hell was, nor would he have been statted if he was (PS didn't give stats for gods).
But I am well familiar with this alternate hell now, having discussed it many times on forums, mailing lists and elsewhere.
So, she is a couatl deity, and had that status before the GtH promoted her to creator-deity as a part of the great serpent of law. If I remember correctly, her realm is on the fifth layer of Mount Celestia (at least in PS), and there was little cause for a casual observer to see in her any sort of anathema to the Lord of Hell.
In the Guide to Hell cosmology, Jazirian is the opposite of Ahriman, and they are the two (apparently) most important gods. Law is more important than chaos (since the battle revolves mostly around the good/evil axis), and Mt. Celestia and Baator (usually referred to as 'the Seaven Heavens' and 'The Nine Hells', or simply heaven and hell in this cosmology) are the most important planes.
I just wanted to point out that this is not the way Planescape handled it. In fact, it never even mentioned the Lord of the Ninth's name...that was all kept dark. And Jazirian was just another deity.
Jazirian is from Monster Mythology, and has a fascinating realm detailed in Planes of Law. It exists in an airy void that visitors have to leap from the mountaintop to reach, and it's the only portal to the next layer. Word-related magic cast there becomes living creatures.
Jazirian is hermaphroditic, male and female combined. The nagas, however, see Jazirian as male and the sometime consort of Shekinester, their triple goddess. Parrafaire, the naga god of guardians, is supposedly Jazirian and Shekinester's child.
The myth of Jazirian (Spenta Mainyu, Good Spirit as the Persians said) and Ahriman (Angra Mainyu, Bad Spirit) treats Jazirian as all female, the yin to Ahriman's yang - or, more accurately, vice versa. This is, however, a simplification, like the naga myth. Jazirian is a complete god, like Io, opposites united. He/she is the lawful good incarnation of the World Serpent, the primal reptillian infinity, the loop that surrounds and defines all that is. His opposite is Merrshaulk, the corrupt, sleeping World Serpent worshipped by the yuan-ti. Merrshaulk is chaotic evil to Jazirian's lawful good, just as Ahriman/Asmodeus is lawful evil.
Probably, there are chaotic good World Serpent fragments as well.
The Lady of Pain is not a leader to them, she is merely the keeper of Sigil - nothing more, nothing less.
The Planescape setting is deliberately vague concerning the nature of these mysteries. It's to allow DMs to forge their own cosmological planar history and therefoe make it easier to incorporate into any campaign setting whether official or homebrew.
|
| Roewyn |
Posted - 07 May 2004 : 18:59:07
Halaster's madness's transformation is trash, man. There is no way that happens and I don't think mystra can change the allignment of Asmo so easily. Asmodeus was a planar deity, maybe as strong as Ao, I think.
Because;
I heard about Jazirian. He whacked Asmodeus.
ýf Jazirian is a deity I suppose he is not all about Toril.
and I also suppose hell is as close to the other planes as it is to Toril. Also I suppose Asmodeus fought with Jazirian because he wanted to go somewhere he was not invited and Jazirian was lucky and he beat asmo and imprisoned him into hell.
Well, it is written in avatar triology that Ao has a superior. And Lady of Pain is reknown to everyone. There are planar deities. I suppose their business is to keep all planes balanced and Ao is one of them. And lady of pain is a leader to them and Jazirian is like Helm.
Maybe Amodeus was a deity like Ao and tried to do sth he shouldn't be supposed to do and punished to rot in hell. I bet he would like venegeance at least. his avatar was enough to take over the hell and I bet he has some plans to finish what he was firstly intended to.
There are 2 questions
Does planescape setting clear those mysteries or are those secret only pass from father to son ?
And what the hell Jazirian and Asmodeus fought in the first place?
|
| D-brane |
Posted - 07 May 2004 : 13:16:00
quote:
Originally posted by Malkor
Hey all, my first post here.
This frightens me, how can Mystra transfer Halasters madness to a another greater god? (The Asmodeus in stats is just merely an Avatar imo and according to the Guide of Hell)
"In truth, Asmodeus is a greater power, just like Jazirian. However, the twin serpents predate the rules of belief in the planes. They neither gain power from the adoration of mortals, nor lose it from lack of worship. This only helps Asmodeus convince his enemies that he is not a real power"
Hope that clears a bit :)
Not only this would mean that:
Possibility 1:
Asmodous would be considered "chaotic" cause suffering from the madness which he got now. If Asmodous would be Chaotic, if he becomes chaotic, other baatezu becomes chaotic? He is after all considered the Father of Baatezu.
That would mean demons and devils become both chaotic evil? ...Think of that..
You have some interesting thoughts here Malkor.
Now, I do see a few problems with your first possibility though, so I'll do my best to correct it.
Your quote from Guide to Hell should not be taken as complete truth. It's been stated meaning times that the version of the Nine Hells described in that book is not the classical version of Baator first envisioned by Gary Gygax. All references in that tome should be taken with a certain degree of doubt. That being said, Asmodeus once stated that both his powers, and the powers of Jazirian are held in check by the overall balance of the planes, and that any disruption to that balance would likely see the multiverse collapse.
In your first possibility, you stated that Asmodeus is the father of the Baatezu. He is not. He simply nurtured the earlier devilish races after the Fall. The current Baatezu are only the latest in a long line of evolving devil types that first arose shortly after the Outlands was formed and the first planes were thought into being. The ancient baatorians were actually the first of the early and extinct races of devil-kind - and while it is believed that some still exist - the current baatezu were born from the blood of these ancient baatorians. Asmodeus simply helped the process along. The baatorians were born at the exact moment that Baator was created.
And finally, the baatezu are born from the soul of the plane they inhabit itself. They will always be born with an alignment of LE regardless of the alignment of Asmodeus.
|
| Malkor |
Posted - 07 May 2004 : 12:31:20
quote:
Originally posted by Roewyn
Now is Asmodeus Halaster's madness?
That doesn't make sense.
As far as I know, Asmodeus, even his avatar is much older than Halaster and Halaster is still mad, at least his clones.
What am I missing?
I think he meant to say that Mystra transfered Halaster his madness to Asmodeus.
Which i think is highly unlikely |
| Roewyn |
Posted - 07 May 2004 : 11:59:33
Now is Asmodeus Halaster's madness?
That doesn't make sense.
As far as I know, Asmodeus, even his avatar is much older than Halaster and Halaster is still mad, at least his clones.
What am I missing? |
| Malkor |
Posted - 07 May 2004 : 10:43:09
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
So this just a legend or is Asmodeus really trapped down in the pit?
BTW, in Elminster in Hell, Mystra transferred Halaster's madness to Asmodeus. Does he still have it now?
Hey all, my first post here.
This frightens me, how can Mystra transfer Halasters madness to a another greater god? (The Asmodeus in stats is just merely an Avatar imo and according to the Guide of Hell)
"In truth, Asmodeus is a greater power, just like Jazirian. However, the twin serpents predate the rules of belief in the planes. They neither gain power from the adoration of mortals, nor lose it from lack of worship. This only helps Asmodeus convince his enemies that he is not a real power"
Hope that clears a bit :)
Not only this would mean that:
Possibility 1:
Asmodous would be considered "chaotic" cause suffering from the madness which he got now. If Asmodous would be Chaotic, if he becomes chaotic, other baatezu becomes chaotic? He is after all considered the Father of Baatezu.
That would mean demons and devils become both chaotic evil? ...Think of that..
Possibility 2
Not only that, but by directly interferring Mystra doomed herself. What force can withstand the forces hidding in Nexus. According to the Guide of hell Asmo's home is big enough to house millions of devls. Each devil born of Asmodeus his blood is considered a perfect speciment, with maximum HD.
Imagine a horde of Pit fiends and corgunons attack a greater god...even a god cannot withstand a million devils. In other words mystra will be torn apart. Magic on FR stops again...new god of magic rises and ect ect. nice epic campaign :)
Note that these devils can attack without the fear that the demons will conquer hell, they where not used in the defenses in the bloodwar. They are just asmo's private forces.
Second possibility here is that Asmo will plot mystra's downfall in the long run. Being the essence of Lawfull evil and master plotter of the planar worlds....
Sorry for my bad english |
| D-brane |
Posted - 07 May 2004 : 06:23:13
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
And you are indeed correct, Graz'zt is from the Abyss, and is a prime example of Tanar'ri, not an Archdevil from the Hells. 
Graz'zt's highly secretive and deceptive nature makes that impossible for primes and planars to know for sure. There has been speculation in the past by certain learned greybeards that Graz'zt is in fact not a Tanar'ri lord, but something else. Graz'zt's past is as fractured as the planes themselves, and it is said by some of the wisest (?) arch-devils that Graz'zt may even be a fallen deity.
Investigations by the Dark Eight have uncovered several ancient and tattered manuscripts across many Material Plane worlds that all make reference to a deity that seems to much the description of Graz'zt's true form. The youngest manuscript dates to several millenia past, and is believed to have been written just after the Reckoning. This in itself lends validity to the rumor that Graz'zt is actually a Baatezu, and would explain his "fall from grace" in the Nine Hells power pyramid so to speak that Asmodeus once made reference to.
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| DDH_101 |
Posted - 06 May 2004 : 00:23:47
Gargauth can improve his status if he can kill other deities and take their portfolios. He has the same opportunity to gain power as other demigods.
I agree with you about him going after Cyric and Shar since he opposes them, which I find strange since he's also an evil deity. Also, I think Gargauth is scheming to destroy Siamorphe because he enjoys corrupting people of virtue like her worshipers who are mostly nobles. |
| Roewyn |
Posted - 05 May 2004 : 21:02:42
There was an arch-devil banished form hell who is a deity now. Gargauth is his name, I suppose.
he should be a demi god now but can he organize assault to improve his status among deties.
Maybe he will suggest summoning nycoloths to destroy the believers of Cyric or attacking north with the allignence of Bane. They may destroy Cyric together and hold north to prevent Shade' s future invasion plans.
Are there any ideas about Gargauth and his possible schemes? |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 04 May 2004 : 06:06:28
Yes, my spelling mistake. Stupid Faerunian names...  |
| Shadowlord |
Posted - 04 May 2004 : 01:44:53
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
... there are many gods (ex. Leira)...
 Well, actually, Leira is dead by Cyric's hand, and has been for quite some time... I assume you are referring to Lliira, Lady of Joy? 
And you are indeed correct, Graz'zt is from the Abyss, and is a prime example of Tanar'ri, not an Archdevil from the Hells. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 04 May 2004 : 01:22:19
Umm... Graz'zt isn't a lord of Hell. In fact, he's not even a devil. Lol.
As for backup, I'm sure there are many gods (ex. Leira) that are willing to help Waukeen and defeat an evil like Graz'zt.
BTW, not everything is for profit. Fine, if you want to look at it in business terms, then Graz'zt screwed Waukeen over in a business deal during the Times of Trouble. You could say she is getting back what is owned. |
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