| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Icelander |
Posted - 23 Oct 2019 : 23:15:14
Does anyone know if there is a canon position on whether giants require proportionally as much food as humans, or if, as partially elemental beings, they are powered partly by magic?
Because, if giants actually have to eat similar food as humans, in proportional quantities, a small tribe of giants will require either extensive agricultural land or absolutely huge hunting grounds.
My players are approaching the home of a frost giant tribe, above the snowline in the Earthspur Mountains, and I want to avoid presenting the illogical scenario of dozens of giants, but no obvious sources of food, but at the same time, it's not like there's a lot of farmland above the snowline and one wonders how much rothé and mountain goat there can be this high up... |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Seravin |
Posted - 31 Oct 2019 : 20:50:11
Thanks Barastir, that lines up with what I thought about troll regen. |
| Barastir |
Posted - 31 Oct 2019 : 16:08:40
According to 2e Monster Manual:
"Separated limbs fight for the remainder of the battle, then scuttle back and rebind with the body once the battle is over. Limbs unable to reach the body die within 24 hours, but this is of little consequence since trolls regenerate lost body parts (including the head) within a week. If a troll is dismembered and scattered, the largest surviving piece regenerates. The others die within one day if they cannot rejoin that piece."
EDIT: additional information |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 31 Oct 2019 : 03:06:25
Tarrasque regeneration presents great difficulties in a 2E Arcane Ages adventure (Karsus of Netheril needs certain Tarrasque parts as a spell component so he sends the PCs on a murderous fetch quest).
Trolls are oft-mentioned in lore but rarely described in any detail outside adventure encounters and monster manuals. There's a joke that half the people in the North have a "Trollslayer" or "Orcslayer" surname - more because of the sheer number of these creatures than because of victory in battles/campaigns. It seems like trolls are somewhat common across Faerun yet no terribly hard to hunt and exterminate, so troll regeneration evidently has limits.
Trolls are invariably hungry enough to eat anything and anyone they encounter (including each other) - troll numbers aren't infinite, and they're described as sometimes spreading outward after they've destroyed local ecologies- so I'm guessing finite food resources equate with finite troll populations regardless how "infinite" their regeneration might be. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 31 Oct 2019 : 00:09:27
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I just view troll regeneration as regrowing the initial, damaged troll...and that the severed limbs will move around and attack people and try to reattach themselves to the dismembered troll body.
I too, think the one troll can create infinite trolls a stupid idea.
All that said, one would surmise that trolls would need natural predators that have access to acid or fire (dragons?) because otherwise their populations would be quite ridiculous given their regeneration abilities (compared to other warlike monsters that don't regenerate their battle wounds and would be subject to infection/disease).
According to 'Ecology of the Troll' in Dragon #301, stomach acids are enough to stop troll regeneration, so anything that can swallow a troll whole can kill it.
Noted predators of trolls that are mentioned in the article are ankhegs, dragons, oozes, purple worms and remorhazes. That beings said, I imagine intelligent, civilized races are the greatest enemies of trolls, as they compete for the same food sources and dwarves, elves and humans are all capable of deciding to exterminate a troll tribe that encroaches on their lands with fire and spell. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 31 Oct 2019 : 00:05:02
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My thinking matches yours, here. Otherwise, a single troll could make a troll army by just ripping off a few bits and letting them regenerate into new trolls, and then letting them do the same.
I know it's occasionally been stated in the fiction that if you cut a hand off a troll, the troll grows a new hand and the severed hand grows a new troll -- but that's clearly ridiculous, and I dismiss it as an in-setting popular misconception.
Yeah, given that different sources that are meant to apply in the Realms conflict on the subject of whether new trolls grow from dismembered trolls, at least some of the sources must represent in-setting misconceptions. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 30 Oct 2019 : 21:57:42
I just view troll regeneration as regrowing the initial, damaged troll...and that the severed limbs will move around and attack people and try to reattach themselves to the dismembered troll body.
I too, think the one troll can create infinite trolls a stupid idea.
All that said, one would surmise that trolls would need natural predators that have access to acid or fire (dragons?) because otherwise their populations would be quite ridiculous given their regeneration abilities (compared to other warlike monsters that don't regenerate their battle wounds and would be subject to infection/disease). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Oct 2019 : 18:26:27
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Mindseye
Could the Giants eat Tarrasques?
Since there is only one, no, they could not eat Tarrasques. If they did manage to defeat THE Tarrasque, of course, I imagine that they could eat it for quite a long time, in light of the regeneration.
I imagine that the suggestion was made in jest, but this is actually something I've contemplated. Not in relation to the tarrasque, specifically, but in regards to how regeneration works in the Realms.
Namely, is regeneration a magical ability to regrow flesh, limbs and other body parts that function as a greatly accelerated version of natural recovery and regrowth or is it a magical ability to conjure into effect new flesh and body parts?
Is it, in other words, a Transmutation effect or a Conjuration one? And, if it is a Conjuration effect, are regenerating creatures creating biomass from nothing or conjuring it from some undisclosed, possibly extraplanar location?
The major implications of this revolve around whether a single troll can produce infinite meat* even while being starved and constantly having pieces cut off it. Or does it need to eat biomass of equivalent mass to the newly regenerated flesh?
I can see why simplistic D&D rules would ignore the latter in monster stats for trolls, because it wouldn't matter in the context of one battle**, but it matters enormously when it comes to worldbuilding.
I personally favor troll regeneration being an efficient way to convert all sorts of biomass few other creatures can use into meat, but I shy away from making trolls literal infinity engines.
*Albeit unpalatable meat.
**The troll would simply convert 'useless' fat and even some slight muscle mass into regenerated flesh, emerging from the combat ravenous, if it survived, which would neatly explain both the typical emaciated troll build and the usual disposition of trolls.
My thinking matches yours, here. Otherwise, a single troll could make a troll army by just ripping off a few bits and letting them regenerate into new trolls, and then letting them do the same.
I know it's occasionally been stated in the fiction that if you cut a hand off a troll, the troll grows a new hand and the severed hand grows a new troll -- but that's clearly ridiculous, and I dismiss it as an in-setting popular misconception. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 30 Oct 2019 : 15:11:12
quote:
Originally posted by Mindseye
Could the Giants eat Tarrasques?
Since there is only one, no, they could not eat Tarrasques. If they did manage to defeat THE Tarrasque, of course, I imagine that they could eat it for quite a long time, in light of the regeneration.
I imagine that the suggestion was made in jest, but this is actually something I've contemplated. Not in relation to the tarrasque, specifically, but in regards to how regeneration works in the Realms.
Namely, is regeneration a magical ability to regrow flesh, limbs and other body parts that function as a greatly accelerated version of natural recovery and regrowth or is it a magical ability to conjure into effect new flesh and body parts?
Is it, in other words, a Transmutation effect or a Conjuration one? And, if it is a Conjuration effect, are regenerating creatures creating biomass from nothing or conjuring it from some undisclosed, possibly extraplanar location?
The major implications of this revolve around whether a single troll can produce infinite meat* even while being starved and constantly having pieces cut off it. Or does it need to eat biomass of equivalent mass to the newly regenerated flesh?
I can see why simplistic D&D rules would ignore the latter in monster stats for trolls, because it wouldn't matter in the context of one battle**, but it matters enormously when it comes to worldbuilding.
I personally favor troll regeneration being an efficient way to convert all sorts of biomass few other creatures can use into meat, but I shy away from making trolls literal infinity engines.
*Albeit unpalatable meat.
**The troll would simply convert 'useless' fat and even some slight muscle mass into regenerated flesh, emerging from the combat ravenous, if it survived, which would neatly explain both the typical emaciated troll build and the usual disposition of trolls. |
| Mindseye |
Posted - 30 Oct 2019 : 14:28:18
Could the Giants eat Tarrasques?
|
| Wrigley |
Posted - 30 Oct 2019 : 10:36:19
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
2e Giantcraft specifically mentioned that as giant generations were further removed from their divine parentage, their lifespans shortened from the immortal lives of the sons of Amman. It's hardly a revolutionary deduction from that data to assume that if modern giants are less divine and have lifespans more in line with normal mortals, they are also less supernatural.
So I don't really consider this a 4e concept, just logical extrapolation from existing Realmslore.
The shortening of age with each generation could possibly explain the removal of giant civilization from Realms. At certain time most of the older giants should die out in a mass scale (multiple generations at once) causing a huge gap in their population within relatively short time. I know there were also wars with Batrachi and dragons but this might have been the finishing blow... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Oct 2019 : 22:50:49
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just to note, the idea of their being "normal" and "more powerful" occurring versions of the various giant races was seen in 4e (i.e. they had fire giants and fire titans as an example, hill giants/earth titans, etc...). This breaks from the concept that Titans are all one "race", and I will say it is one of many 4e concepts that I'm not against. I find that many of the 4e concepts I find palatable, but it was the implementation of them that didn't necessarily work in their involvement with either sweeping changes to the realms itself OR the base rules.
2e Giantcraft specifically mentioned that as giant generations were further removed from their divine parentage, their lifespans shortened from the immortal lives of the sons of Amman. It's hardly a revolutionary deduction from that data to assume that if modern giants are less divine and have lifespans more in line with normal mortals, they are also less supernatural.
So I don't really consider this a 4e concept, just logical extrapolation from existing Realmslore.
Yeah, its just 4e was the first to put a non-conceptual status to it and to put stats to the concept. Granted, still not a 4e fan, but I find myself intrigued by how many concepts of theirs were good, but the implementation fell shy. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 29 Oct 2019 : 19:59:40
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just to note, the idea of their being "normal" and "more powerful" occurring versions of the various giant races was seen in 4e (i.e. they had fire giants and fire titans as an example, hill giants/earth titans, etc...). This breaks from the concept that Titans are all one "race", and I will say it is one of many 4e concepts that I'm not against. I find that many of the 4e concepts I find palatable, but it was the implementation of them that didn't necessarily work in their involvement with either sweeping changes to the realms itself OR the base rules.
2e Giantcraft specifically mentioned that as giant generations were further removed from their divine parentage, their lifespans shortened from the immortal lives of the sons of Amman. It's hardly a revolutionary deduction from that data to assume that if modern giants are less divine and have lifespans more in line with normal mortals, they are also less supernatural.
So I don't really consider this a 4e concept, just logical extrapolation from existing Realmslore. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 29 Oct 2019 : 16:32:40
Just to note, the idea of their being "normal" and "more powerful" occurring versions of the various giant races was seen in 4e (i.e. they had fire giants and fire titans as an example, hill giants/earth titans, etc...). This breaks from the concept that Titans are all one "race", and I will say it is one of many 4e concepts that I'm not against. I find that many of the 4e concepts I find palatable, but it was the implementation of them that didn't necessarily work in their involvement with either sweeping changes to the realms itself OR the base rules. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 29 Oct 2019 : 11:15:14
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
You could also separate giantkin to two categories - true giants are ones with clear elemental essence (fire, storm, cloud and stone). Others are lesser giants with questinable origin and thus more human-like in size and consumption. Hill giants have no clear element in them as do ettins, ogres, verbegs, ... for frost giants you can say they have paraelemental origin so at least their consumption should be lesser for it.
Of course, while the distinction between 'true' giants that descend from Annam and the giant-kin is most vital to giant culture, I do see giants as existing on a continuum from fairly mundane and terrestial (Vaprak's progeny like ogres, various giant-kin like verbeegs, and even true giants like the ettin and hill giants), to more fey giants/giant-kin (firbolg, fomorians, voadkyn, mountain, etc.) to the strongly elemental or paraelemental giants (stone, frost, fire, cloud, storm). There are also some oddities which appear to draw on other energies than elemental ones.
For my campaign, I'll have a range of supernaturalness existing also within each giant race, with every generation since the sons of Annam being more mortal, smaller, shorter-lived and less magical. So, while giants of the ancient past were absolutely huge, they required proportionally less food (even if they enjoyed eating more than they needed), because they were so nearly divine and lived for thousands of years.
So, yes, the frost giants in my campaign will require less food than their weight implies, but their slaves and servants; ogres, cyclopskin, a couple of ettin, a verbeeg, maybe some hill giants, etc. will need food in full proportion to their size (and/or be less active and energetic). |
| shades of eternity |
Posted - 29 Oct 2019 : 02:43:44
Ogre Magi/Oni are Vaprak's pet project that failed? |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 28 Oct 2019 : 22:42:46
You could also separate giantkin to two categories - true giants are ones with clear elemental essence (fire, storm, cloud and stone). Others are lesser giants with questinable origin and thus more human-like in size and consumption. Hill giants have no clear element in them as do ettins, ogres, verbegs, ... for frost giants you can say they have paraelemental origin so at least their consumption should be lesser for it. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 28 Oct 2019 : 20:53:41
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I know the physics probably doesn't work, but I like to think Hill Giants are just very large, mundane monster humanoids that follow human-esque digestive needs - but the other giants Stone, Cloud, Storm, Fire and Ice are magical/elemental and like dragons don't really consume food unless they want to.
Hill Giants from memory are usually depicted/written as much stockier and bulky than the other giants who are very lean (and much taller). If I'm right, Hill Giants would need a lot of food to keep them going...
Hill giants aren't any stockier (in pictures) than mountain giants, frost giants or fire giants (the last of whom are by far the stockiest giant race), but it is true that most pictures of hill giants show them as pot-bellied, overweight and generally less athletic than more aristocratic giants.
And there is canon support for your position, in that hill giants are actually canonically noted as particularly voracious eaters who require far more food for their weight than the other giants.
Giantcraft does specify that giants require food and their size means that they require quite a lot. In fact, giant food requirements and the difficulty of satisfying them when humans are competing for the same resources are noted as one of the major reasons large groups of giants are so rare.
But I'd say that it's very logical to assume that only the (comparatively) mundane hill giants actually require the full amount of calories needed for a biological creature their size, with the more magical giant races being partially sustained by their elemental connection.
I will assume, for example, that ordinary frost giants, in the 1300s DR generally around the seventh generation removed from their immortal progenitors, require only half the food that their size implies, although in periods of plenty, they enjoy indulging their gluttony and eating as much as they can. Frost giants closer to their immortal origins and/or particularly connected to their elemental natures tend to require even less food, being more supernatural in nature. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Oct 2019 : 12:39:51
One thing that might play into things could be that giants just may not be as active overall compared to smaller races. For instance, the smaller races might have to spend time tilling the fields, chopping wood into usable pieces for firewood, turning logs into lumber for making/repairing their houses, etc.... whereas giants may
A) rely on smaller races working for them as slaves to perform these tasks
or
B) Not have to perform said tasks at all or have to spend as much effort to perform said tasks (i.e. they may just use their personal weight to snap small-to-them trees into firewood)
For instance, living in a cold wasteland, humans in similar territory would have to keep a fire running to keep up heat. Frost giants don't have to do that. I imagine that their main uses for fire are for making food, drinks, and possibly medicinal reasons. They aren't particularly known for metal working, so I'd imagine that they do more stone, leather, and wood working and purchasing metal weapons from other giants like fire giants. They may do some work using bone as well. Ironically, when they do need some kind of heat source, they may use extracts from the creatures they hunt (noting that the albino remorhaz's back produces extreme heat) or actually keep such creatures as pets for that purpose. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 28 Oct 2019 : 09:45:21
quote:
Originally posted by Starshade
Frost giant might presumably use "viking" style ships to hunt whales, right? A quick google led me to a wiki article about the Frost Giant ship "Krigvind", requiring a crew of 20 and taking 1000 tons of cargo. If we assume baleen whales of 50 up to 100 tonns is common there is lots of food available.
If they live by an ocean, that would certainly be one option.
My tribe of frost giants live in the Earthspur Mountains, near the Glacier of the White Worm.
No whales for them, but they do hunt the albino remorhazes that give the glacier its name. |
| Starshade |
Posted - 28 Oct 2019 : 09:41:09
Frost giant might presumably use "viking" style ships to hunt whales, right? A quick google led me to a wiki article about the Frost Giant ship "Krigvind", requiring a crew of 20 and taking 1000 tons of cargo. If we assume baleen whales of 50 up to 100 tonns is common there is lots of food available. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 28 Oct 2019 : 07:24:50
I know the physics probably doesn't work, but I like to think Hill Giants are just very large, mundane monster humanoids that follow human-esque digestive needs - but the other giants Stone, Cloud, Storm, Fire and Ice are magical/elemental and like dragons don't really consume food unless they want to.
Hill Giants from memory are usually depicted/written as much stockier and bulky than the other giants who are very lean (and much taller). If I'm right, Hill Giants would need a lot of food to keep them going...
|
| Icelander |
Posted - 27 Oct 2019 : 02:35:58
quote:
Originally posted by AuldDragon
Dragon Magazine #254 has different average weights and upkeep numbers for giants, in the article "The Bigger They Are...", with Frost Giants weighing 7700 lbs and requiring 6 times the amount of food. Might be worth looking over for an alternate take.
Jeff
Thanks. As it happens, I just located this old Dragon Magazine and did just that.
The weights are right, in that the author actually understands scaling and avoided hollow giants or papier-mache ones.
The upkeep figures are weird, in that there is no explanation given, but note that there doesn't seem to be an explicit statement that giants eat much less than their size would suggest, just that their monthly upkeep was a given cost multiplier. This is distinct because upkeep includes more than just food, but also because if giants can subsist of cheaper foodstuffs than humans, then the upkeep multiplier might be less than expected, even if the giants eat huge amounts. |
| AuldDragon |
Posted - 27 Oct 2019 : 02:28:12
Dragon Magazine #254 has different average weights and upkeep numbers for giants, in the article "The Bigger They Are...", with Frost Giants weighing 7700 lbs and requiring 6 times the amount of food. Might be worth looking over for an alternate take.
Jeff
|
| Kentinal |
Posted - 26 Oct 2019 : 14:23:44
Well dogs are not required to herd, they just make it easier. Best comparison would be cowboys in herding cattle did not use dogs. They did however use mounts to be able to better control the cattle.
With more people the sheep or goats can be watched over by people without dogs. The dogs tend to replace the need for man power. One dog likely better then two man because of speed and better able to be near or in a herd to collect and guide. Man power tend to be more required to be fencing, containing the perimeter or the herd, forming path with some driving.
Depending on nature of cattle also man on foot can herd them.
Trained herding animals just make things easier and free man power up for other things. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 26 Oct 2019 : 14:03:46
quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
Well, sheep and goats are relatively hardy so they should be able to survive in fairly harsh environments. Goats, in particular, are very good at climbing.
Giant's eat a lot, so I expect huge stockades of sheep/goats with sheepdogs or their equivalent.
goats, in particular, I believe pulled Thor's chariot in Norse mythology.
Not only do they present a low cr encounter that starts the PCs looking for giants without being there, but you can also have a ton of fun having to deal with the sheep/goats afterward as they are most likely worth money.
and if you happen to crib the journey back with an episode from Shaun the Sheep, so much the better. :D
While the PCs will absolutely steal sheep or rothé from giants if it means tasty fresh meat on the road, note that a few thousand gold pieces are not worth any trouble to them. They are looking for the Hollow Mountain, on a quest for Iyrarauroth's hoard, the treasures of Roldilar and the orc kingdom of Vastar. They're after millions, not thousands.
The PCs already own/control a merchant house with dozens of trading ships, a mercenary company making vast sums in Unther, tracts of lands in Unther and the Vast, an island in the Inner Sea and investment stakes in a variety of concerns, ranging from logging in the Vilhon Reach to trade with undersea creatures in Myth Nantar. The campaign is about fifteen years old and while GURPS rules don't use levels, in D&D terms they'd probably come to 17th+ level.
So, I doubt they'll bother to try to transport herds of sheep or cattle to a human settlement a tenday away, just because they are worth tens of thousands of gold pieces. Of course, if they secure possession of the Hollow Mountain, they might eventually send hirelings to do so, just as they might send hirelings to carry out from the dragon's hoard any valuables not valuable enough for their weight to rate space in the PCs' Bag of Holding, Folding Boat and other luggage.
That being said, encountering giant-ish shepherds sounds fun. The frost giants keep winter wolves like medieval nobles might keep packs of pampered hunting hounds, and I'm pretty sure winter wolves and sheepdogs would coexist poorly. But because of the frost giant distaste for warm weather, this time of year (it's late Mirtul, so late spring / early summer) they never actually come down to the lower elevations of the southern slopes where their herds roam. It might therefore be theoretically possible for the ogre shepherds to keep their own working dogs, I guess.
Still, those ogres probably live in prosimity to the giants and their wolves for most of the year, so sheepdogs still feel like a potential problem. Can you effectively shepherd (and drive cattle, for the rothé) without them? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 25 Oct 2019 : 23:18:58
You can always calculate/estimate more "realistic" body weights (and food consumption) for giant-sized humanoids.
But the reality is that giants don't exist, evidently because they're "impossible".
While fantasy settings implicitly assume "it's magic!" handwavium whenever there's a need to explain "impossible" things.
The Giantcraft splatbook does offer rules for creating new/custom giant races. Interestingly, a race of human-sized "giants" (standing a mere 5'-6' tall) is possible, and these would gain no significant racial template stats/modifiers/abilities to differentiate them from humans. It's explained that "giants" (jotun) are an unhuman species - they are proportioned differently, with many gross and subtle differences in biology and anatomy and psychology - they're as unlike humans as demihumans or goblinoids. They seem to have a stronger connection to their mythological origins, and since this invariably involves some form of divine fiat it can be argued that "it's magic!" validates their quirky characteristics better than any other explanation. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Oct 2019 : 13:24:09
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
As it seems you need to differ from the rules why do you want to keep the consumption level?
As far as I can tell, there isn't any one set of rules. The Realms have existed through multiple editions of D&D (as well as being created before that game existed) and different editions have had different rules for giants. And, unhappily, different facts about them as well, i.e. giant size and weight has fluctuated by edition.
I'm looking for Realmslore, because I play games in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, but because I don't use any edition of D&D, I'm indifferent to rules, as such. The individual editions and their rules are just the game engine used to render the setting and I'm interested in Realmslore, i.e. information about the setting.
That being said, a statement in a sourcebook that frost giants range from x to y in height and have an average weight of z is not simply 'the rules'. It's also a statement of fact about measurable things within the setting and thus Realmslore. Hence, I'd like to be able to stick to it, in my campaign, despite not using (A)D&D rules.
Unfortunately, that's impossible, for the reasons given above. Unless we are willing to postulate hollow giants or giants made out of foam, the listed heights and weights don't work together. That has nothing to do with rules and everything to do with either the author or editor of the sourcebook not even doing back of the envelope checks to ensure that they weren't fundamentally misunderstanding scale.
I'm not wedded to giants either requiring proportional calories for their size or to them subsisting partially on their innate magic (and link to the elemental planes). I just wanted to know if there was Realmslore that touched on the subject before making a decision for my campaign.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
As for the weight I would look more into the nature for large size creatures like grizzly bears, elephants, gorillas, ...
Why?
Those aren't human-shaped and, moreover, they don't work like giants. Giants aren't much less strong for their weight than humans, as huge creatures are in reality. Giants are clearly magical beings, because they have a shape that would not work with normal physics and they can wield weapons that they could absolutely not use with normal physics.*
*Mass goes up with the cube of height, but in real physics, the strength and lifting capability of a huge being doesn't scale that way. The larger something is in real life, the less strong it is for its size. Elephants are far stronger than ants, but proportionally much weaker. A giant-sized sword or axe would be far too heavy for a giant without magical muscles and it would also have horrible balance if shaped as a scaled up replica of a human weapon (and probably couldn't be made out of the same materials as human-scale weapons).
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
As for the bees... that is where you get when you supersize everything. Such problems will continue to rise if you keep looking that is why I went for simple solution of less consumption.
It is, indeed, turtles all the way down.
That being said, it's not impossible for a fantastic ecology to make sense, if we assume that magic is providing means to solve certain problems that can't be solved by normal physics. Magic, after all, can overrule physics when they are being a buzzkill.*
However, in order for that to be narratively satisfying and provide a functional setting to play in, we have to think about the implications.
So, if I want my giants to have giant bees for their giant supply of honey for giant casks of mead, I have to provide them with giant flowers... or some replacement source of nectar.
*Thank you, thank you, here all week. Try the veal.
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
If you get a thousand heads herd of sheeps/goats you cannot stay at the same location and have to move them around a lot. I cannot believe that nobody would notice that.
The humans, orcs and dwarves who live anywhere near the Ice Gorge certainly know about the frost giant tribe there and, in fact, it is one of the reasons most of them give the place a wide berth.
As it happens, the PCs chose this circuitous, arduous and hazardous route to their ultimate destination because they are trying to avoid a rampaging hobgoblin 'horde'* and found out that the hobgoblins tried to cross the giants' lands, but suffered a bloody repulse and now avoid them, at least for the moment.
If Kurth weren't besieged by thousands of goblinoids and orcs, the PCs and their retinues would simply have followed the North Road from King's Reach. Dealing with outriders, foragers, scouts and splinter faction warbands sounded absolutely exhausting and entirely too unpredictable, whereas Tungo mac Tholdorn, their dwarven guide, insists he can lead them past the giants in the gorge by secret dwarfways underground.
Unless, of course, that the PCs elect to go giantslaying for fun and profit and/or something goes wrong.
*Well, more like an organized army of conquest, moreover mostly consisting of slave troops of goblins and an increasing number of orcs incorporated into the victorious army, but the settled humans of the area persist in referring to any large humanoid grouping as a 'horde'. |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 25 Oct 2019 : 10:12:45
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
At 520 lbs., Andre the Giant was only about x3.5 the weight of an average human.
Actually,Andre's weight is a good example of how ridiculous published D&D weights could be, with 9' ogres listed at 350 lbs. in some sources and 20'+ giants weighing barely more than a ton. That's somewhere between a walking skeleton and Paris Hilton in build, unless we're talking hollow giants.
Frost giants with the average height listed in Giantcraft would weigh over seven tons if they were built like Andre (which most descriptions and pictures suggest). Hell, my stepfather is a fairly regular guy, big but not record-setting in any way (6'6", 300 lbs.), and if you scaled him up to twice his height, he'd weigh as much as Giantcraft has frost giants weigh despite only reaching their waists.
I can basically choose to follow the heights or the weights listed in Giantcraft, there's no way to retain both without making the result impossible to take seriously.
So, should I reduce frost giant heights to more plausible levels for them weighing 1-1.5 tons or should I retain the listed heights and multiply weights?
As I use GURPS rules for my games, there is a huge mechanical difference, as I'll figure the stats for the giants from their mass. A 14,000 lbs. frost giant would be significantly more frightening than a 2,400 lbs. one.
As it seems you need to differ from the rules why do you want to keep the consumption level?
As for the weight I would look more into the nature for large size creatures like grizzly bears, elephants, gorillas, ...
As for the bees... that is where you get when you supersize everything. Such problems will continue to rise if you keep looking that is why I went for simple solution of less consumption.
If you get a thousand heads herd of sheeps/goats you cannot stay at the same location and have to move them around a lot. I cannot believe that nobody would notice that. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Oct 2019 : 04:53:37
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-If you enlarge something and then kill it, does it remain enlarged? Not sure how realistic it would be for your Frost Giants to be enlarging cattle, rothe, whatever to satisfy their bigger hungers, but it could be a plausible scenario with the right actors.
Unless the Enlarge effect is permanent, you wouldn't end up with more biomass at the end of the day. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 25 Oct 2019 : 04:51:46
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
https://www.buzzfeed.com/norbertobriceno/incredible-stories-that-prove-andre-the-giant-was-larger
Andre the Giant could (it is written) consume 12 steaks and 15 lobsters in one sitting. Or 16 bottles of wine. He needed over 125-150 beers to get drunk, he needed to smash down two bottles of vodka just to "get a buzz".
This seems like an extremely large (and muscular, athletic) human - roughly 5 times average human body weight - consuming more than 10-20 times an average human's meal and drink. (I think it's safe to assume Andre typically ate/drank somewhat less than he did during these outrageously memorable displays.)
At 520 lbs., Andre the Giant was only about x3.5 the weight of an average human.
Actually,Andre's weight is a good example of how ridiculous published D&D weights could be, with 9' ogres listed at 350 lbs. in some sources and 20'+ giants weighing barely more than a ton. That's somewhere between a walking skeleton and Paris Hilton in build, unless we're talking hollow giants.
Frost giants with the average height listed in Giantcraft would weigh over seven tons if they were built like Andre (which most descriptions and pictures suggest). Hell, my stepfather is a fairly regular guy, big but not record-setting in any way (6'6", 300 lbs.), and if you scaled him up to twice his height, he'd weigh as much as Giantcraft has frost giants weigh despite only reaching their waists.
I can basically choose to follow the heights or the weights listed in Giantcraft, there's no way to retain both without making the result impossible to take seriously.
So, should I reduce frost giant heights to more plausible levels for them weighing 1-1.5 tons or should I retain the listed heights and multiply weights?
As I use GURPS rules for my games, there is a huge mechanical difference, as I'll figure the stats for the giants from their mass. A 14,000 lbs. frost giant would be significantly more frightening than a 2,400 lbs. one. |
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