| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| enchantedgoblin |
Posted - 17 Apr 2004 : 22:55:42
Does anyone know of any mind altering drugs in Forgotten Realms or another Fantasy Series. If so can you just tell me the any basic facts you know.
Thx, Enchanted Goblin |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 06 May 2004 : 23:55:50
No, that argument goes well for "good intentions" but it doesn't for most of the time. That's why drugs like rohypnol are illegal in the Real World.
You need to make certain that your act is moral first. D&D isn't like the Real World. Good and evil are much more clearly defined. There's still grey areas, of course, but the setting precludes many things we would consider ambiguous. I'm not talking alignment charts here. This is the simple fact that D&D is, at its core, a war of Light versus Dark.
I think a lot of it is situation-based, so I'm not saying you have to have a hard and fast rule on things like interrogation drugs. If you're drugging the spy to find out when his Evil Overlord's Legions of Terror are going to arrive, fine. But if you're drugging the mayor to find where his stash of gold is, that's entirely different.
This can lead into "ends do not justify the means" arguments, and I admit that. However, even that statement has grey areas. You have to find a balance with your morals, as well as your character's. |
| Bayne |
Posted - 06 May 2004 : 19:15:42
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Salabasha
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I maintain that there is a degree of evil in the act, even if there is no lasting harm. Using chemicals to alter someone's behavior against their will, simply for information, is an evil act. It may be a minor bit of evil, and it may be to advance the causes of good, but it remains an evil thing.
And what happens if the drugs are used to extract information from one already evil, to say cure a disease that the one in question let loose or save a village from a band of marauders that the creature is associated with etc. etc.
You are still using chemicals to force someone to do something they'd not otherwise do. They are given no choice in the matter.
Even in your examples, I'd consider it to be an evil act. Sure, it's a minor evil, and it's in support of a worthy goal (in that situation, I would prolly do the same), but the means are evil.
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Then is forcing anyone to do something against their will an evil act? At what point does it become right, rather than wrong?
Individual freedoms are very important. Any time you violate these, no matter the reason, it's an evil act. However, in some situations, it's a necessary evil. In Salabasha's examples, not violating the evil guy's freedoms is a greater evil than violating them.
Hello all, I am semi-back, and have a thing or two to say on this subject. First off, I do not believe using drugs to procure information from an interrogatee is necessarily evil, that it depends on the intent. Furthermore, if the intent is good, and they do use the drug, I also do not believe it is getting them to do something they are against doing. What you are doing is temporarily (or permanately, depending on the potency of the drug) altering their state of mind. This can possibly be compared to using diplomacy checks or intimidate checks. It results in the same end desire, just through slightly different means. Instead of using fear to get information, you are using a drug. You are changing their mind, just like you do when you use intimidate or diplomacy, the only differences is that it's on a more tangible level, and that the effectiveness of it may possibly be much more. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 06 May 2004 : 12:50:08
Ah, Sadi, Nyissa, and that little red box...
I don't believe the Nyissans are high 24-7(With the exception of Salmissra, or whatever her name is, I don't have my copies of any of the related tomes right now to check).
Also, doesn't Sadi relate a few times where and what his drugs were made from? |
| Lina |
Posted - 06 May 2004 : 11:34:53
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
No, there are in FR. And in Garion's world, the drugs are never named. Only one part where some colors are mentioned.
Probably half the stuff they invent don't have names since they use berries/plants growing in their jungle. But the books does mention the effects of some of the narcotics like slowing the effects of aging, making various forms of poisons from the slow and painful to the feel-good slow acting to fast acting types, and mind affecting drugs. |
| RogueAssassin |
Posted - 28 Apr 2004 : 22:26:07
The Torture problem is all a question of moral. Its the question of being ruthless to do good... would you kill an innocent child to cure a disease that kills hundreds of thousands of children every year?
Its just a perspective thing.
Would you let someone kill your child to save other children? Would you be the one to kill it? What if you were a person who had the disease and you were terminal? Would you use the cure knowing that an innoicent child died to make it?
Everyones idea of good or evil is different in the end.
-The ROgue |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 28 Apr 2004 : 12:10:00
No, there are in FR. And in Garion's world, the drugs are never named. Only one part where some colors are mentioned. |
| Lina |
Posted - 28 Apr 2004 : 11:54:45
I don't know of any mind affecting drugs in FR, but Edding's The Belgariad has a race that gets high off drugs 24-7.
Say.... why are you so interested? Thinking of mixing up a batch for personal use are you. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 19:50:58
quote:
Originally posted by Salabasha
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I maintain that there is a degree of evil in the act, even if there is no lasting harm. Using chemicals to alter someone's behavior against their will, simply for information, is an evil act. It may be a minor bit of evil, and it may be to advance the causes of good, but it remains an evil thing.
And what happens if the drugs are used to extract information from one already evil, to say cure a disease that the one in question let loose or save a village from a band of marauders that the creature is associated with etc. etc.
You are still using chemicals to force someone to do something they'd not otherwise do. They are given no choice in the matter.
Even in your examples, I'd consider it to be an evil act. Sure, it's a minor evil, and it's in support of a worthy goal (in that situation, I would prolly do the same), but the means are evil.
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Then is forcing anyone to do something against their will an evil act? At what point does it become right, rather than wrong?
Individual freedoms are very important. Any time you violate these, no matter the reason, it's an evil act. However, in some situations, it's a necessary evil. In Salabasha's examples, not violating the evil guy's freedoms is a greater evil than violating them. |
| Salabasha |
Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 19:12:35
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I maintain that there is a degree of evil in the act, even if there is no lasting harm. Using chemicals to alter someone's behavior against their will, simply for information, is an evil act. It may be a minor bit of evil, and it may be to advance the causes of good, but it remains an evil thing.
And what happens if the drugs are used to extract information from one already evil, to say cure a disease that the one in question let loose or save a village from a band of marauders that the creature is associated with etc. etc.
Also a question. If a demon intakes demon weed do you think that the demon would be affected by it? |
| SoulLord |
Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 18:42:45
Bookwyrm
I am reluctant to 'Break' players using torture after all if they say
they whitstand the pain of the red hot poker as it sears their flesh
who am i to make them roll a save or spill out whatever the torturers wish to.
|
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 17:30:59
Then is forcing anyone to do something against their will an evil act? At what point does it become right, rather than wrong? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 17:24:23
quote:
Originally posted by Yasraena
[font=Tahoma] I don't think using drugs to interogate someone is inherently evil, although it's far from good.
If there is no permamnent damage done, then what's the big deal?  
I maintain that there is a degree of evil in the act, even if there is no lasting harm. Using chemicals to alter someone's behavior against their will, simply for information, is an evil act. It may be a minor bit of evil, and it may be to advance the causes of good, but it remains an evil thing. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 16:13:19
quote:
Originally posted by Yasraena
I don't think using drugs to interogate someone is inherently evil, although it's far from good.
If there is no permamnent damage done, then what's the big deal?
That's the point, as far as the Good-aligned are concerned.
Oh, sure, Salabasha, they're really good, especially the ones that have no balancing factor.  |
| Salabasha |
Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 14:52:11
If you ask me, drugs make you stronger! As long as you don't overdose and only 1 of the effects take place. |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 05:08:54
Hmm... well most of the drugs in the Forgotten Realms are addictive, though often it's classified as "low". Only the truly expensive ones are classified as "high" and strangely, they don't do much except for making you hallucinate. Lol. |
| Yasraena |
Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 04:37:16
I don't think using drugs to interogate someone is inherently evil, although it's far from good.
If there is no permamnent damage done, then what's the big deal?
I've never seen instances of drugs of any kind in D&D until the Book Of Vile Darkness. I had seen some player made rules, but nothing official.
In Shadowrun and Cyberpunk (or ANY dark future type game), drugs are rampant. If you want to be faster, stronger, immune to pain, a combination of all three, or just about anything else you can think of, there is a drug that can do it. But they come with a high cost. There are physical and mental repercussions from dosing even just once. The addiction factors on all the really cool drugs (the ones with the really cool game effects) are like, take it once and 'whew, I could use some more of that'. Take it twice and "man I really NEED some more of that!'You are hooked. Very realistic, which is the way drugs should be played, because they ain't pretty.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 03:28:35
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
BTW, would it be considered an evil act or a torture if I apply drugs to interrogations?
I would imagine so, if the goal was to get someone to do something they'd not otherwise do. |
| Dantrag |
Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 02:49:46
Aren't there something like...battle stimulants? Or torture drugs? |
| RogueAssassin |
Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 00:55:52
BTW, would it be considered an evil act or a torture if I apply drugs to interrogations?
_____________________________________________________________________
....Nah.
-The Rogue |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 23 Apr 2004 : 00:27:32
Bookwyrm, that was what I am talking about. I was wondering if some drugs could lower the resistance of a person so an interrogation would be easier and quicker.
BTW, would it be considered an evil act or a torture if I apply drugs to interrogations? |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 22 Apr 2004 : 23:33:46
Actually, players 'have' to do that if you make them -- just as they have to take damage or even die under the rules. If, for example, they fail Will saves, they could break under torture.
Of course, torture in its usual sense (causing direct pain) would require first a Fortitude save, and then a Will save if that Fortitude save failed. Torture by other means, such as having to witness some atrocity because the player isn't cooperating, would need a modified Will save. (That's more specialized; it would depend on what was going on.)
Finally, a "truth" drug would reqire a straight out Will save. And that is a truth drug you're talking about, DDH 101; the "truth" drugs used in our would would be more along the lines of "babble drugs." They don't force you to tell the truth -- they just lower your judgement and cause you to talk about whatever they ask. Not necessarily the truth, but you need to have a strong mind to be missleading under those effects.
Say, if you fail the Will save by less than four, you can make a Bluff check with some penalty . . . . |
| SoulLord |
Posted - 22 Apr 2004 : 21:09:03
DDH_101
I assume you mean to interrogate npc's this way as players
dont splirt the truth no matter how you motivate them
to do so by physical means.
It's like if they felt no pain nor craved more of the
substances you administer into them.
|
| Zimeros |
Posted - 22 Apr 2004 : 20:36:17
Sometime ago a friend spoke me something about it, he did read it in "Magic of Faerum", he found some drugs like dragon scale, beholders skin and another things that, if receives some magics, can give a bonus in intelligence of mage that smokes it.
Maybe in Maztica there are some drugs, that can do the priests "talk with his gods"...
|
| Arivia |
Posted - 18 Apr 2004 : 02:46:36
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Looks like I have to re-read that nasty book again...
BTW, would the drugs mentioned in BOVD or LoD be able to use in interrogation situations? For example, the drug I mentioned, Mordayn Vapor, would I be able to get answers from a victim if I have him sniff the vapors before asking?
There's no modifier listed to Intimidate for such in the BoVD; however, I can quite see some sort of interrogation like this. Remember if you actually get someone addicted to the stuff, the various withdrawal penalties would be quite helpful... |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 18 Apr 2004 : 00:48:52
Looks like I have to re-read that nasty book again...
BTW, would the drugs mentioned in BOVD or LoD be able to use in interrogation situations? For example, the drug I mentioned, Mordayn Vapor, would I be able to get answers from a victim if I have him sniff the vapors before asking? |
| Kuje |
Posted - 17 Apr 2004 : 23:54:59
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I don't think there is one. There might be some info on alchemical substances for torturing.
No there are some in the BOVD, but they were ported over from Lords of Darkness. :) |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 17 Apr 2004 : 23:43:21
I don't think there is one. There might be some info on alchemical substances for torturing. |
| RogueAssassin |
Posted - 17 Apr 2004 : 23:18:45
I belive that there is a section on drugs in The Book of Vile arkness also isnt there?
-The Rogue |
| DDH_101 |
Posted - 17 Apr 2004 : 23:15:45
Kuje is right. There's a whole section on drugs in the Lord of Darkness.
Here's one of them:
Mordayn Vapor ("Dreammist") is a highly addictive drug. It's made of roughly ground leaves of a rare herb found in souther forests. It is so potent that it is taken by steeping a small amount of hot water, and then inhaling the vapors from the resultant tea. Raw mordayn powder or mordayn-tainted water is highly poisonous and it causes an immediate overdoes if taken directly. Mordayn Vapor is known for the beautiful visions it induces, and the deadly peril of its sinister embrace.
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| Kuje |
Posted - 17 Apr 2004 : 23:02:38
quote:
Originally posted by enchantedgoblin
Does anyone know of any mind altering drugs in Forgotten Realms or another Fantasy Series. If so can you just tell me the any basic facts you know.
Thx, Enchanted Goblin
There was a whole handful in 3e's Lords of Darkness. :)
Ed posted some more in this thread that hadn't seen print yet. :) Scroll down halfway.
http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1901&whichpage=23 |
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