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enchantedgoblin
Acolyte

USA
19 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2004 :  22:55:42  Show Profile  Visit enchantedgoblin's Homepage Send enchantedgoblin a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Does anyone know of any mind altering drugs in Forgotten Realms or another Fantasy Series. If so can you just tell me the any basic facts you know.

Thx, Enchanted Goblin

Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2004 :  23:02:38  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by enchantedgoblin

Does anyone know of any mind altering drugs in Forgotten Realms or another Fantasy Series. If so can you just tell me the any basic facts you know.

Thx, Enchanted Goblin



There was a whole handful in 3e's Lords of Darkness. :)

Ed posted some more in this thread that hadn't seen print yet. :) Scroll down halfway.

http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1901&whichpage=23

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1272 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2004 :  23:15:45  Show Profile  Visit DDH_101's Homepage Send DDH_101 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kuje is right. There's a whole section on drugs in the Lord of Darkness.

Here's one of them:

Mordayn Vapor ("Dreammist") is a highly addictive drug. It's made of roughly ground leaves of a rare herb found in souther forests. It is so potent that it is taken by steeping a small amount of hot water, and then inhaling the vapors from the resultant tea. Raw mordayn powder or mordayn-tainted water is highly poisonous and it causes an immediate overdoes if taken directly. Mordayn Vapor is known for the beautiful visions it induces, and the deadly peril of its sinister embrace.

"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask
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RogueAssassin
Learned Scribe

USA
207 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2004 :  23:18:45  Show Profile  Visit RogueAssassin's Homepage Send RogueAssassin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I belive that there is a section on drugs in The Book of Vile arkness also isnt there?

-The Rogue

"Spirit. Its a Heros strength, a mothers resiliance, and the poor mans armor. It cannot be broken and it cannot be taken away. This i must belive"---Drizzt Do'Urden
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1272 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2004 :  23:43:21  Show Profile  Visit DDH_101's Homepage Send DDH_101 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think there is one. There might be some info on alchemical substances for torturing.

"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2004 :  23:54:59  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101

I don't think there is one. There might be some info on alchemical substances for torturing.



No there are some in the BOVD, but they were ported over from Lords of Darkness. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1272 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2004 :  00:48:52  Show Profile  Visit DDH_101's Homepage Send DDH_101 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Looks like I have to re-read that nasty book again...

BTW, would the drugs mentioned in BOVD or LoD be able to use in interrogation situations? For example, the drug I mentioned, Mordayn Vapor, would I be able to get answers from a victim if I have him sniff the vapors before asking?

"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask
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Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2965 Posts

Posted - 18 Apr 2004 :  02:46:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101

Looks like I have to re-read that nasty book again...

BTW, would the drugs mentioned in BOVD or LoD be able to use in interrogation situations? For example, the drug I mentioned, Mordayn Vapor, would I be able to get answers from a victim if I have him sniff the vapors before asking?



There's no modifier listed to Intimidate for such in the BoVD; however, I can quite see some sort of interrogation like this. Remember if you actually get someone addicted to the stuff, the various withdrawal penalties would be quite helpful...
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Zimeros
Learned Scribe

Brazil
121 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2004 :  20:36:17  Show Profile  Visit Zimeros's Homepage Send Zimeros a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sometime ago a friend spoke me something about it, he did read it in "Magic of Faerum", he found some drugs like dragon scale, beholders skin and another things that, if receives some magics, can give a bonus in intelligence of mage that smokes it.
Maybe in Maztica there are some drugs, that can do the priests "talk with his gods"...

"Gods protect children and drunks"

Edited by - Zimeros on 22 Apr 2004 20:38:37
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SoulLord
Seeker

Mexico
62 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2004 :  21:09:03  Show Profile  Visit SoulLord's Homepage Send SoulLord a Private Message  Reply with Quote
DDH_101

I assume you mean to interrogate npc's this way as players
dont splirt the truth no matter how you motivate them
to do so by physical means.

It's like if they felt no pain nor craved more of the
substances you administer into them.

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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 22 Apr 2004 :  23:33:46  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, players 'have' to do that if you make them -- just as they have to take damage or even die under the rules. If, for example, they fail Will saves, they could break under torture.

Of course, torture in its usual sense (causing direct pain) would require first a Fortitude save, and then a Will save if that Fortitude save failed. Torture by other means, such as having to witness some atrocity because the player isn't cooperating, would need a modified Will save. (That's more specialized; it would depend on what was going on.)

Finally, a "truth" drug would reqire a straight out Will save. And that is a truth drug you're talking about, DDH 101; the "truth" drugs used in our would would be more along the lines of "babble drugs." They don't force you to tell the truth -- they just lower your judgement and cause you to talk about whatever they ask. Not necessarily the truth, but you need to have a strong mind to be missleading under those effects.

Say, if you fail the Will save by less than four, you can make a Bluff check with some penalty . . . .

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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1272 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2004 :  00:27:32  Show Profile  Visit DDH_101's Homepage Send DDH_101 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bookwyrm, that was what I am talking about. I was wondering if some drugs could lower the resistance of a person so an interrogation would be easier and quicker.

BTW, would it be considered an evil act or a torture if I apply drugs to interrogations?

"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask
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RogueAssassin
Learned Scribe

USA
207 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2004 :  00:55:52  Show Profile  Visit RogueAssassin's Homepage Send RogueAssassin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
BTW, would it be considered an evil act or a torture if I apply drugs to interrogations?
_____________________________________________________________________


....Nah.
-The Rogue

"Spirit. Its a Heros strength, a mothers resiliance, and the poor mans armor. It cannot be broken and it cannot be taken away. This i must belive"---Drizzt Do'Urden
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Dantrag
Learned Scribe

USA
141 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2004 :  02:49:46  Show Profile  Visit Dantrag's Homepage Send Dantrag a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aren't there something like...battle stimulants? Or torture drugs?

" The truth comes out only in bold and underlined"
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36598 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2004 :  03:28:35  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101

BTW, would it be considered an evil act or a torture if I apply drugs to interrogations?



I would imagine so, if the goal was to get someone to do something they'd not otherwise do.

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Yasraena
Senior Scribe

USA
388 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2004 :  04:37:16  Show Profile  Visit Yasraena's Homepage Send Yasraena a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think using drugs to interogate someone is inherently evil, although it's far from good.
If there is no permamnent damage done, then what's the big deal?

I've never seen instances of drugs of any kind in D&D until the Book Of Vile Darkness. I had seen some player made rules, but nothing official.
In Shadowrun and Cyberpunk (or ANY dark future type game), drugs are rampant. If you want to be faster, stronger, immune to pain, a combination of all three, or just about anything else you can think of, there is a drug that can do it. But they come with a high cost. There are physical and mental repercussions from dosing even just once. The addiction factors on all the really cool drugs (the ones with the really cool game effects) are like, take it once and 'whew, I could use some more of that'. Take it twice and "man I really NEED some more of that!'You are hooked. Very realistic, which is the way drugs should be played, because they ain't pretty.


"Nindyn vel'uss malar verin z'klaen tlu kyone ulu naut doera nindel vel'bolen nind malar."
Yasraena T'Sarran
Harper of Silverymoon
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1272 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2004 :  05:08:54  Show Profile  Visit DDH_101's Homepage Send DDH_101 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm... well most of the drugs in the Forgotten Realms are addictive, though often it's classified as "low". Only the truly expensive ones are classified as "high" and strangely, they don't do much except for making you hallucinate. Lol.

"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask
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Salabasha
Learned Scribe

Portugal
216 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2004 :  14:52:11  Show Profile  Visit Salabasha's Homepage Send Salabasha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you ask me, drugs make you stronger! As long as you don't overdose and only 1 of the effects take place.

Life is like a box of chocolates. Once you eat the poisoned one you die.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2004 :  16:13:19  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Yasraena

I don't think using drugs to interogate someone is inherently evil, although it's far from good.
If there is no permamnent damage done, then what's the big deal?




That's the point, as far as the Good-aligned are concerned.

Oh, sure, Salabasha, they're really good, especially the ones that have no balancing factor.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36598 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2004 :  17:24:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Yasraena

[font=Tahoma] I don't think using drugs to interogate someone is inherently evil, although it's far from good.
If there is no permamnent damage done, then what's the big deal?


I maintain that there is a degree of evil in the act, even if there is no lasting harm. Using chemicals to alter someone's behavior against their will, simply for information, is an evil act. It may be a minor bit of evil, and it may be to advance the causes of good, but it remains an evil thing.

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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2004 :  17:30:59  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Then is forcing anyone to do something against their will an evil act? At what point does it become right, rather than wrong?

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.
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SoulLord
Seeker

Mexico
62 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2004 :  18:42:45  Show Profile  Visit SoulLord's Homepage Send SoulLord a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bookwyrm

I am reluctant to 'Break' players using torture after all if they say
they whitstand the pain of the red hot poker as it sears their flesh
who am i to make them roll a save or spill out whatever the torturers wish to.

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Salabasha
Learned Scribe

Portugal
216 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2004 :  19:12:35  Show Profile  Visit Salabasha's Homepage Send Salabasha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I maintain that there is a degree of evil in the act, even if there is no lasting harm. Using chemicals to alter someone's behavior against their will, simply for information, is an evil act. It may be a minor bit of evil, and it may be to advance the causes of good, but it remains an evil thing.



And what happens if the drugs are used to extract information from one already evil, to say cure a disease that the one in question let loose or save a village from a band of marauders that the creature is associated with etc. etc.

Also a question. If a demon intakes demon weed do you think that the demon would be affected by it?

Life is like a box of chocolates. Once you eat the poisoned one you die.

Edited by - Salabasha on 23 Apr 2004 19:15:10
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36598 Posts

Posted - 23 Apr 2004 :  19:50:58  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Salabasha

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I maintain that there is a degree of evil in the act, even if there is no lasting harm. Using chemicals to alter someone's behavior against their will, simply for information, is an evil act. It may be a minor bit of evil, and it may be to advance the causes of good, but it remains an evil thing.



And what happens if the drugs are used to extract information from one already evil, to say cure a disease that the one in question let loose or save a village from a band of marauders that the creature is associated with etc. etc.


You are still using chemicals to force someone to do something they'd not otherwise do. They are given no choice in the matter.

Even in your examples, I'd consider it to be an evil act. Sure, it's a minor evil, and it's in support of a worthy goal (in that situation, I would prolly do the same), but the means are evil.

quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm

Then is forcing anyone to do something against their will an evil act? At what point does it become right, rather than wrong?


Individual freedoms are very important. Any time you violate these, no matter the reason, it's an evil act. However, in some situations, it's a necessary evil. In Salabasha's examples, not violating the evil guy's freedoms is a greater evil than violating them.

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Lina
Senior Scribe

Australia
469 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2004 :  11:54:45  Show Profile  Visit Lina's Homepage Send Lina a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't know of any mind affecting drugs in FR, but Edding's The Belgariad has a race that gets high off drugs 24-7.

Say.... why are you so interested? Thinking of mixing up a batch for personal use are you.

“Darkness beyond twilight, crimson beyond blood that flows! Buried in the flow of time. In thy great name. I pledge myself to darkness. All the fools who stand in our way shall be destroyed…by the power you and I possess! DRAGON SLAVE!!!”

"Thieves? Ah, such an ugly word... look upon them as the most honest sort of merchant."
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2004 :  12:10:00  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No, there are in FR. And in Garion's world, the drugs are never named. Only one part where some colors are mentioned.

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RogueAssassin
Learned Scribe

USA
207 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2004 :  22:26:07  Show Profile  Visit RogueAssassin's Homepage Send RogueAssassin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Torture problem is all a question of moral. Its the question of being ruthless to do good... would you kill an innocent child to cure a disease that kills hundreds of thousands of children every year?
Its just a perspective thing.
Would you let someone kill your child to save other children? Would you be the one to kill it? What if you were a person who had the disease and you were terminal? Would you use the cure knowing that an innoicent child died to make it?
Everyones idea of good or evil is different in the end.

-The ROgue

"Spirit. Its a Heros strength, a mothers resiliance, and the poor mans armor. It cannot be broken and it cannot be taken away. This i must belive"---Drizzt Do'Urden
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Lina
Senior Scribe

Australia
469 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2004 :  11:34:53  Show Profile  Visit Lina's Homepage Send Lina a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm

No, there are in FR. And in Garion's world, the drugs are never named. Only one part where some colors are mentioned.

Probably half the stuff they invent don't have names since they use berries/plants growing in their jungle. But the books does mention the effects of some of the narcotics like slowing the effects of aging, making various forms of poisons from the slow and painful to the feel-good slow acting to fast acting types, and mind affecting drugs.

“Darkness beyond twilight, crimson beyond blood that flows! Buried in the flow of time. In thy great name. I pledge myself to darkness. All the fools who stand in our way shall be destroyed…by the power you and I possess! DRAGON SLAVE!!!”

"Thieves? Ah, such an ugly word... look upon them as the most honest sort of merchant."
-Oglar the Thieflord
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Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2965 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2004 :  12:50:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ah, Sadi, Nyissa, and that little red box...

I don't believe the Nyissans are high 24-7(With the exception of Salmissra, or whatever her name is, I don't have my copies of any of the related tomes right now to check).

Also, doesn't Sadi relate a few times where and what his drugs were made from?
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Bayne
Seeker

USA
86 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2004 :  19:15:42  Show Profile  Visit Bayne's Homepage Send Bayne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Salabasha

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I maintain that there is a degree of evil in the act, even if there is no lasting harm. Using chemicals to alter someone's behavior against their will, simply for information, is an evil act. It may be a minor bit of evil, and it may be to advance the causes of good, but it remains an evil thing.



And what happens if the drugs are used to extract information from one already evil, to say cure a disease that the one in question let loose or save a village from a band of marauders that the creature is associated with etc. etc.


You are still using chemicals to force someone to do something they'd not otherwise do. They are given no choice in the matter.

Even in your examples, I'd consider it to be an evil act. Sure, it's a minor evil, and it's in support of a worthy goal (in that situation, I would prolly do the same), but the means are evil.

quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm

Then is forcing anyone to do something against their will an evil act? At what point does it become right, rather than wrong?


Individual freedoms are very important. Any time you violate these, no matter the reason, it's an evil act. However, in some situations, it's a necessary evil. In Salabasha's examples, not violating the evil guy's freedoms is a greater evil than violating them.



Hello all, I am semi-back, and have a thing or two to say on this subject. First off, I do not believe using drugs to procure information from an interrogatee is necessarily evil, that it depends on the intent. Furthermore, if the intent is good, and they do use the drug, I also do not believe it is getting them to do something they are against doing. What you are doing is temporarily (or permanately, depending on the potency of the drug) altering their state of mind. This can possibly be compared to using diplomacy checks or intimidate checks. It results in the same end desire, just through slightly different means. Instead of using fear to get information, you are using a drug. You are changing their mind, just like you do when you use intimidate or diplomacy, the only differences is that it's on a more tangible level, and that the effectiveness of it may possibly be much more.

Nindyn vel'uss kyorl nind ratha thalra elyhinn dal lil alust
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2004 :  23:55:50  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No, that argument goes well for "good intentions" but it doesn't for most of the time. That's why drugs like rohypnol are illegal in the Real World.

You need to make certain that your act is moral first. D&D isn't like the Real World. Good and evil are much more clearly defined. There's still grey areas, of course, but the setting precludes many things we would consider ambiguous. I'm not talking alignment charts here. This is the simple fact that D&D is, at its core, a war of Light versus Dark.

I think a lot of it is situation-based, so I'm not saying you have to have a hard and fast rule on things like interrogation drugs. If you're drugging the spy to find out when his Evil Overlord's Legions of Terror are going to arrive, fine. But if you're drugging the mayor to find where his stash of gold is, that's entirely different.

This can lead into "ends do not justify the means" arguments, and I admit that. However, even that statement has grey areas. You have to find a balance with your morals, as well as your character's.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

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