| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Markustay |
Posted - 18 Mar 2018 : 19:42:11
Damara, land of... adventure? It once was. But in 3e it was pretty-much completely ignored, and became more like a "poor man's Impiltur" (although after what they did to impiltur in 4e, it might be the other way around now).
I recall we did a lot of work fleshing-out the Warlock Knights over on the WotC boards back in the day - I had created 2 NPCs myself (and one 'sort of' made it into canon on the 4e Vaasa map). Does anyone have a copy of that thread? I may have to track down Jeremy for that (He's had a couple of names here). Anyhow, the Warlock knights were one of the few bright spots in 4e, and it seems Rich Baker meant to do more with them, but never got the chance (one appeared in his Blades of the Moonsea series, trying to gain control of Thar by bringing the humanoid tribes to heel).
So Damara has Impiltur - what became a fiend-ridden 'hell on earth' for a time - to the south, and Vaasa - a place of potentially great evil to the north (so, sort of nothing new with vaasa - evil just changed its costume). They also have the 'no show' (do nothing at all for FIVE editions!) Nar to the east. The Galenas block them from bordering the Moonsea... I've toyed with giving them a port over there, through the mountains. THAT something that has a ton of potential.
So, before I make this so long no-one reads it, here is my one major premise I am turning around in my head - that its become something akin to Mendev in Pathfinder (Golarion). Lastwall is another very similar PF nation; paladin-run nations putting up 'the good fight' as a 'last bastion of humanity', or whatever against hordes of evil foes (Mendev has the World Wound, and Lastwall has an Orc/Humanoid nation). Thus, for a time during 4e, Damara would have been squashed between two highly volatile nations (with the potential for Narfell to refind their ancestral heritage as well). Now, things have 'simmered down' in Impiltur (or so I hear), but what of the Warlock Knights? They were making big 'power moves' in Rich's novel, and he is the guy who created that group, so it stands to reason that that was just one plot in a stew of hundreds.
I really feel like that whole 'square' of countries - Vaasa, Damara, The Vast, and Impiltur, are in desperate need of an update. Hopefully when I am done with the map we'll have a better visual reference to work with. I want this to become a 'workshop' thread. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Mar 2018 : 08:51:32
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Without the corrupt guys holding back the rebuilding efforts, it seems Impiltur began to recover himself, reaching a decent level in just a decade.
DECADE? *pfft*
This is the Forgotten Realms - cities reappear overnight!
{*cough* Zentil Keep *cough*} |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 25 Mar 2018 : 06:51:08
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
'When kane meets Drizzt'
Drizzt: "Hey... how'd I get died?" 
As for Impiltur - wouldn't that be NEW New Sarshel, as opposed to old New Sarshel? 
Do what I do with the Video games, Krash - cherry-pick the personages (including monsters), places, and maybe items... everything else is negotiable. 
I see a short story coming on... "A Balor in Baytown:.
Picture a Balrog mob-boss with a fat cigar hanging out the side of his mouth. 
funny thing that you mention that...... |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 25 Mar 2018 : 04:13:12
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Ah yes, now I see it. Those adventures are ... not to my taste. And to say that there are now only two cities in Impiltur, just because the low quality snapshot map of Impiltur in the 4E FRCS shows New Sarshel and Lyrabar as the two cities on the map is ... questionable. That said, everything is fixable, but by golly the 4E Realms are so uninspiringly deflating.
-- George Krashos
Well, the adventures as independent are not that good. But as a whole, they allowed Impiltur to reach their 5e status. In the SCAG, the other cities are rebuilt and are again merchant ports. I guess that this was because the corrupt members of the Council were killed when the adventurers were routing demon cultist in Impiltur (IMPI2-3, IIRC).
Without the corrupt guys holding back the rebuilding efforts, it seems Impiltur began to recover himself, reaching a decent level in just a decade.
But yeah, we'll have to make some adjustments to what 4e did to the area if we want to improve the place. Is what I did in my campaign (that's why my final battle has a different outcome). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Mar 2018 : 04:10:10
'When kane meets Drizzt'
Drizzt: "Hey... how'd I get died?"
As for Impiltur - wouldn't that be NEW New Sarshel, as opposed to old New Sarshel?
Do what I do with the Video games, Krash - cherry-pick the personages (including monsters), places, and maybe items... everything else is negotiable.
I see a short story coming on... "A Balor in Baytown:.
Picture a Balrog mob-boss with a fat cigar hanging out the side of his mouth. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 25 Mar 2018 : 03:25:11
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
think it was the last of the homecoming or whatever the last trilogy was.
shameless admition. I ahvent read it for sure though, I only read through the last chapter in it. KAne was in one of the scenes.
so 5e after scag or right before scag....
I get paid tomorrow so I think ill buy it to read.
bought it. almost done with it.
drizzt is in the bloodstone lands at the monastery of the yellow rose getting.... spoilers that I wont give you. and meeting Grandmaster Kane in all his arsekicking glory
|
| George Krashos |
Posted - 25 Mar 2018 : 03:22:26
Ah yes, now I see it. Those adventures are ... not to my taste. And to say that there are now only two cities in Impiltur, just because the low quality snapshot map of Impiltur in the 4E FRCS shows New Sarshel and Lyrabar as the two cities on the map is ... questionable. That said, everything is fixable, but by golly the 4E Realms are so uninspiringly deflating.
-- George Krashos |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Mar 2018 : 00:14:20
Funny how our minds will do that - we 'rewrite' stuff mentally that we didn't like. I've done it plenty of times.
I like the idea he got away - if gives us a decent bad guy to play with. We need a boatload of threats to kickstart the Unapproachable East (or, at the least, the Bloodstone Lands, which should just include everything around the Galenas at this point).
@Brimstone - EXACTLY. That is who I picture whenever I think of Fzoul. Ya know... I can't imagine why no-one has rebooted Dudley Doright as a horror story.. the guy (Snidely) is literally trying to dismember and decapitate young women all the time, WITH A TRAIN! The dude has some serious issues - he should be right up there with Jason and Michael Myers. I should sell that idea to some cable network - Snidely: The Early Years. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 24 Mar 2018 : 21:26:43
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Which adventure features a balor? I have the 4E adventures IMPI1-1 through to IMPI2-4. Are there any others?
-- George Krashos
There are no more adventures set in Impiltur in 4e, besides those you already have.
The balor is featured in IMPI2-4 "Goblins Strike Back". Morthak the Everhungry is mentioned in the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide, in the section about Impiltur, as one of the demons set loose in the northern hills after the Weave collapsed.
In the adventure, he is the leader of the goblin horde that attacks New Sarchel. Though he is only said to be a demon in the FRPG, he is revealed to be a balor in the adventure.
But now that I think about it, the outcome of making Morthak retreat was my own (I wanted a better finale for that arc), and not one featured in the adventure... |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 24 Mar 2018 : 19:58:00
Like this dude?? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Mar 2018 : 05:43:04
They were actually ALWAYs mercantile-focused. They just 'played dirty' (VERY dirty) in their business dealings. Their leadership wasn't always looking to conquer other places to rule them (in fact, they purposely DESTROYED Teshendale), they just did that to control the trade routes. They're just very amoral businessmen, which may appear 'evil', to the victims of their practices, but 'its just business'. Now they realize they've had a valuable resource of their own for quite some time, and are finally exploiting it - an army of well-trained troops.
I have no problem with the 'new' Zhents - they feel much more real than the old crew (mustashe-twirling Fzoul... if FR had railroad tracks he would had tied a damsel to them for sure). |
| Gyor |
Posted - 24 Mar 2018 : 02:51:56
I like the 5e Zhents, they have shades of grey mixed in with the dark and they are even willing to work with Harpers when there is a profit in it. They are far more practical now then mahaha type cheese evil.
They are mercenaries functionally, yes many are still evil, but for various reasons none evil beings are members of the Zhents.
So the Zhents are more diverse in species and religion then they used to be and more business focused.
They are even a player faction (one of two excepting evil characters along with the Lords Alliance). Other factions being the Guantlet, Harpers, and Emerald Enclave. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 23 Mar 2018 : 14:02:35
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
As for 4e Impiltur, it has a lot of unresolved plot after the final LFR adventure that can help your efforts to make the place more interesting. The final adventure has 2 different outcomes, and seeing the description of Impiltur in the SCAG it seems that the canon outcome is one of the two that have New Shartel surviving the goblin invasion. However, that outcome has two potential endings, and in one of those endings, the Balor described as the BBEG of the region in 4e survives (he just flees from the adventurers).
Which adventure features a balor? I have the 4E adventures IMPI1-1 through to IMPI2-4. Are there any others?
-- George Krashos |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Mar 2018 : 22:51:44
Well, we mostly 'just figured it out' because Manshoon was crafting his OWN spells, before his level should have allowed for that (including his signiture Clone Spell). In a discussion over on the WotC boards, we assumed at some point his clones didn't get an upgrade, or an older one (using the original Clone spell, not his personal variant) awoke, and we've had 'ineffective' Manshoons ever since. Then in that early 4e series where the two fight (I never read the final instalment of that - it was just too damn depressing), we see what Manshoon was really capable of, so my assumption there is that he either 'got cured' of whatever was nerfing his brain (maybe the 'upgrade' finally kicked in?), or the original Manshoon returned - the uber-powerful, EFFECTIVE villain who actually could hurt Elminster.
Marvel comics went through something similar with its own 'helmed mage' - Doctor Doom. For a time in the late 80's the character was just getting sillier and sillier, and had become a bit of a joke, with even the Punisher beating him as a final insult. In order to bring him back to the world-threatening super=villain he started out as, they say he had been on an 'interdimensional romp' (I don't think they've ever detailed where he went or what he was up to), and found two of his 'decoys' - a clone and an android - were fighting and making a mockery of his reputation. He instantly rendered both inert, and you could see THIS was the REAL Doom, returned. Very sure of himself and crackling with power (the level of power he had when he took down Galactus and went up against the Beyonder).
On the other hand, the Manshoon's we've seen throughout 1e-3e were more like the Doctor Octopus of the same era - his brain couldn't even handle what the Molecule Man was doing (reigniting stars on his way back home from the Secret Wars) and just snapped. After that, he was just a crazed, fixated husk of his former self (for a time, anyway - I heard a lot more happened with him after I stopped reading comics). So that's kind of like the Manshoon we grew to know, who didn't 'look' the way we were told he was in the lore - as an uber-intelligent and competent villain. He was avery pale reflection of his own reputation. And he wasn't even powerful enough to have created the one spell he is truly known for. Hence, our 'False Manshoon' theory.
I'll have to read those bits about Manshoon in Elminster's Forgotten Realms.
Also, as one more hint that all of this might be factual and not just theory (aside from whatever Ed wrote in above-mentioned tome) - his response to the attack/death of The Shadowsilk - for him, it seemed very recent. Suppose his relationship with her had been at least 15 years in the past? And suppose the clone Manshoon we started seeing at the beginning of the published Realms was one from around that time - a clone from his time with her, or soon after? That would make a hell of a lot of sense, and make that whole odd scene (where he literally 'flies off the handle') make so much more sense - that was all fresh for him. But not her... and not Elminster. He was probably missing at least a decade of his own history (experience) at that point. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 22 Mar 2018 : 22:05:39
About the Zhents, I'm specifically talking about the Zhents that were under the leadership of one of the Manshoon clones (the vampire, if I'm not wrong) that Ed described in Elminster's Forgotten Realms, that seems to be the same Zhents of 4e/5e. I have to admit that I don't remember the Zhents in the Avatar trilogy to be as organized and effective as the Zhents described in Elminster's Forgotten Realms.
As for 4e Impiltur, it has a lot of unresolved plot after the final LFR adventure that can help your efforts to make the place more interesting. The final adventure has 2 different outcomes, and seeing the description of Impiltur in the SCAG it seems that the canon outcome is one of the two that have New Shartel surviving the goblin invasion. However, that outcome has two potential endings, and in one of those endings, the Balor described as the BBEG of the region in 4e survives (he just flees from the adventurers).
If you need info about that, I can gladly provide it.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Manshoon strikes me more as a villain who was competent, but at some point he had been defeated so many times by Elminster his mind snapped, and he is now so fixated on beating him that he has lost sight of his goals (and has even made some very bad decisions, based on his fixation - decisions a younger Manshoon would have never made). It may also have to do with his clones (because if we go by spell-levels alone, he had to have already been more powerful in 1e than the 1e sources allowed for, which indicates at some point he was cloned back into a 'weaker' {less experienced} body that hadn't gotten an 'upgrade' in quite some time). Thus, part of his insanity might be that he was once able to do a LOT more than he was able to do in 1e/2e/3e (I think by the time he fights El again in the early 4e novels, he has either gotten his mojo back, or thats the original, finally returned from some interdimensional romp).
Mmm... Ed mentions something similar about Manshoon in Elminster's Forgotten Realms. He even says in the book that there is a Manshoon clone that is basically the same that the original, and that will only awaken from his stasis when all the other clones die. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Mar 2018 : 16:56:15
@Zeromaru - that one mention, or even an allusion to events of a VG are not canon - only very explicit points from them are and can become canon. For instance, in your example, Zhai is canon, and probably a LOT like her VG character. That does not mean the events in the game played-out, unless specifically spoken of, and even then, only the particulars that get mentioned are precise canon. Because the games can go very different ways, and some of them can even have different endings, normally we can assume the 'toys' (characters, locales, and maybe items) are most-likely canon, but the events are not, at least not exactly how it happened in the game.
I've been saying for a while now that we should treat the novels as 'stories told in-setting', such that the particulars may or may not be true. So when we hear about the amazing, unbelievable exploits of the Drow hero Drizzt, thats what other folks are hearing about him... and the 'truth' may be somewhat different. I think its even better to apply this approach to the VG - they are more like 'wild stories' told in taverns from distant places. There should be just enough 'facts' mixed in for the stories to be somewhat believable.
So for Demon Stone, their probably was some sort of artifact uncovered, and there probably was a couple of 'new heroes' involved, along with a couple of BBG's who probably wanted the item for themselves (I am just going to assume here the 'storytellers' got their facts mixed-up with the Calimemnon Crystal), and they group of hero's got some help from a local powerful mage (and at some point the name 'Khelben' wound-up getting applied to the Wizard just to embellish the story). And in the end, the 'heroes' were granted a tract of land within the borders of Vassa. probably someplace no one even wanted, like in the cold NE.
On Characterizations:
I never found Ed's Zhents to be 'badass', but that could be because of things mentioned above, that were out of his hands. In certain situations they were highly competent, and then in others, the same groups were idiots. Its extremely hit-or-miss with those guys.
Manshoon strikes me more as a villain who was competent, but at some point he had been defeated so many times by Elminster his mind snapped, and he is now so fixated on beating him that he has lost sight of his goals (and has even made some very bad decisions, based on his fixation - decisions a younger Manshoon would have never made). It may also have to do with his clones (because if we go by spell-levels alone, he had to have already been more powerful in 1e than the 1e sources allowed for, which indicates at some point he was cloned back into a 'weaker' {less experienced} body that hadn't gotten an 'upgrade' in quite some time). Thus, part of his insanity might be that he was once able to do a LOT more than he was able to do in 1e/2e/3e (I think by the time he fights El again in the early 4e novels, he has either gotten his mojo back, or thats the original, finally returned from some interdimensional romp).
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, I know Demon Stone its not the best game, but it was my formal intro to the setting. I played it even before I knew about D&D proper. So, I have a sweet spot for it. As for the plotholes, if RAS didn't care about them, why should I?
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Thank god the computer games can be ignored canon-wise except where they have a novel/product/article follow up. Which I don't think Demon Stone did.
Although the game is not properly mentioned in any novel, the events are referenced in Promise of the Witch-King (a non-Drizzt RAS' novel). Zhai is even mentioned by name.
So, somehow the events of the game are canon. Yeah, the metaplot of the time.
As for the Zhents, I've read Ed's Elminster's Forgotten Realms section about them, and he makes them sound like they are baddasses. But here and in other places, I've read the Zhents are clowns... why people thinks that?
Perhaps only Ed's Zhents are baddass, though.
Its all in who runs them. For instance, many would portray red wizards as keystone cops, but in my campaigns, players feared them.
My Red Wizards were neither - I had only grown to truly love the Realms in 3e, and had been using the 3e version - they were merchants, first and foremost. Yes, they were very magically powerful, but they were also 'far away', and most of their long-range, clandestine plots had been canceled, because they were all doing so well with the Thaymart side of things (which plays right into RLB novels series - Thay was moving away from what it was - a scary threat - and Szass Tam was having NONE of that). So, in the campaign I ran the PCs worked for the Red Wizards, albeit through intermediaries (they had dozens of 'Trading Costers' setup for this purpose, so no-one would know it was really them, but the Harpers WERE well-aware of it, and were monitoring them closely).
The guy who hired them was a RW in disguise (He had long hair), and didn't behave at all like someone would expect a RW to act (he was friendly, and it wasn't just an act). He was just one of such 'sleeper agent' types Thay had setup, and he ran a caravan from Nethentir to Culmaster, and then took ships over to Tsurlagol, and then on up north to Mulmaster, and he supposedly had nothing to do with the Red Wizards (aside from the fact he would have to 'do business with them' in Nethentir). The whole things was a cover for a regular trade-route between Thay and Mulmaster, and Dmitra Flass was secretly in charge of the operation).
So, my Thay was kind of like the real Thay hidden behind a veneer of the 3e 'Thaymart' Thay (which was all part of the plan to make people start thinking of the RW as no longer a threat). However, a LOT of Tharchions and even Zulkirs began to like the mercantile aspect a bit too much for Tam's liking, and were starting to think the 'veneer' should be the real Thay from then on... and that brings us to the novels. Tam had picked-up a copy of LotR (Candlekeep has several copies) and Tammy had some serious boycrush issues with Sauron. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 22 Mar 2018 : 01:30:18
It's generally because his novels do generally have keystone cop villains; the Zhents and Manshoon just tend to get the brunt of it. After the Code of Ethics was abolished, there was a marked increase in villain competency, except for Ed's novels. Just look at what happened to Larloch.
It's what seriously affects the portrayal of Manshoon, in particular. Manshoon is never written as a diabolical genius that plays the Moonsea like a fiddle; one Elminster novel had him showing up to laugh ominously right before Elminster's archlich ex-lover kamikazes herself and blows him up too. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Mar 2018 : 23:53:29
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
As for the Zhents, I've read Ed's Elminster's Forgotten Realms section about them, and he makes them sound like they are baddasses. But here and in other places, I've read the Zhents are clowns... why people thinks that?
Because in the early days of the Realms, TSR had a ridiculous Code of Ethics for novels, and part of it was that bad guys could never triumph, even temporarily. So no matter how smart and clever the bad guys were, even if it was the second book of a trilogy, the good guys had to come out on top. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Mar 2018 : 23:30:39
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Well, I know Demon Stone its not the best game, but it was my formal intro to the setting. I played it even before I knew about D&D proper. So, I have a sweet spot for it. As for the plotholes, if RAS didn't care about them, why should I?
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Thank god the computer games can be ignored canon-wise except where they have a novel/product/article follow up. Which I don't think Demon Stone did.
-- George Krashos
Although the game is not properly mentioned in any novel, the events are referenced in Promise of the Witch-King (a non-Drizzt RAS' novel). Zhai is even mentioned by name.
So, somehow the events of the game are canon. Yeah, the metaplot of the time.
As for the Zhents, I've read Ed's Elminster's Forgotten Realms section about them, and he makes them sound like they are baddasses. But here and in other places, I've read the Zhents are clowns... why people thinks that?
Perhaps only Ed's Zhents are baddass, though.
Its all in who runs them. For instance, many would portray red wizards as keystone cops, but in my campaigns, players feared them. |
| Baltas |
Posted - 21 Mar 2018 : 23:16:32
Indeed, Heliogabalus, is a name of an actuall God - the romanized form of El-Gabal (El of the Mountain), a form of El, who got previously syncretized with Aten, becoming a sun god, hence his further syncretization with Sol/Helios, and eventually with Mithra/Mithras, giving the rise to the cult of Sol Invictus...
El curiously, was idetified with either Anu or Enlil. Hmmmm. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 21 Mar 2018 : 22:04:24
Well, I know Demon Stone its not the best game, but it was my formal intro to the setting. I played it even before I knew about D&D proper. So, I have a sweet spot for it. As for the plotholes, if RAS didn't care about them, why should I?
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Thank god the computer games can be ignored canon-wise except where they have a novel/product/article follow up. Which I don't think Demon Stone did.
-- George Krashos
Although the game is not properly mentioned in any novel, the events are referenced in Promise of the Witch-King (a non-Drizzt RAS' novel). Zhai is even mentioned by name.
So, somehow the events of the game are canon. Yeah, the metaplot of the time.
As for the Zhents, I've read Ed's Elminster's Forgotten Realms section about them, and he makes them sound like they are baddasses. But here and in other places, I've read the Zhents are clowns... why people thinks that?
Perhaps only Ed's Zhents are baddass, though. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Mar 2018 : 16:08:36
Unfortunately, Heliogabalus was also a RW name, which makes it doubly irritating.
I also checked other dates - Khelben appears in that VG after his death, so that was obviously Kelbane 'Bleakstaff' Erinson - a common mistake. HIS tower was in Vaasa, and was destroyed (which is what he gets for letting people think he was that other guy). Heh - a least I got two locales out of it (a name for one of the mines and the elf village of Cedarleaf... lots of creativity went into that one). 
The plot has the #1 most common plothole mistake, and I can't possibly see how RAS could have not known it was there: The heroes accidentally destroy the 'prison' that Khelben had kept the two BBG's in. They go to Khelben, and he tells them they have to get a new Demon Stone (down in Chult - its the only time I see the story moving outside of Vaasa) and put the baddies back into it. Here's the plothole: If these two are such major, Realms-shaking villains, and khelben has imprisoned them before, why isn't he doing it now? His tea might get cold? The party just met and start out very weak, and yet all the powerful people (including Drizzt!) are sending them to save the Realms. A little TOO much 'D&D', eh?
Also, two uber-powerful bad guys - that HATE each other - trapped in some sort of 'ebil crystal'? Methinks I've heard of that one before...
@Sleyvas -I knew you'd jump all over the RW thing!
'Enclaves' is actually a disease now - people are walking around with leprosy-like sores all over them which are really micro-enclaves with tiny little Red Wizards in them.
But I actually decided I love the Malaugrym angle for the 'southern coast' of Impiltur going all 'dark & bad'. It makes the most sense, I think, and is very Realmsian, and uses bad guys we almost never see. EDIT: I can definitely see a bunch of expatriate Thayans also being involved; in fact, I can see the Malaugrym manipulating things so that it looks like the whole 'civil war' scenario was Red Wizard's idea, to throw people off. The Duergar still work as an ally of the Vaasans.
As for the drow, if I were to keep that scenario (them having some sort of port in old Sulassppryn), it might be more fun with them 'under siege' by the Duergar and Vaasans (trying to steal their port), and the drow would actually be looking for help for a change (I don't mind Drow - I rather like them, to be honest. I just don't like them to always be the same two-dimensional 'monsters' they were back in Greyhawk).
Not that those Drow are good, mind you... they did murder an entire city of humans there... it just becomes one of those "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" things. Expect the drow to double-cross anyone who helps them, unless they are still proving useful somehow. They ARE drow, after all. They may have even hired a contingent of Zhent-Mercs already (so you're characters can have some fun fighting alongside Zhents and Drow. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 21 Mar 2018 : 12:51:31
quote:
Originally posted by Spectralballoons
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Seems Yarin also changed the capital name to Helgabal (formerly it was named Heliogabalus, according to the book).
I'm just going to comment on how silly a name Heliogabalus is.
Bildobaris in Marvell sounds equally strange and slightly similar.
I have Heliogabalus as the name of the Nar (Suren) meeting place when they lived here prior to the Sembian Veldrin Bloodfeathers arrival.
Helgabal was the name given to the settlement founded by the Sembians and Damarans after they drove the Nar away. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Mar 2018 : 12:12:43
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, I was kinda wrapping my mind around a North/South thing there myself (the country practically begs for it, geographically).
My thoughts ran toward the impitularans fleeing north in the face of 'insurmountable odds', such that the government would be a 'kingdom in exile' (along with any commoners who were able to make it out). They would 'set up shop' in the northern part of Impiltur - the lands they never fully claimed before (everything north of Trader's Bay - The Farwater)). Then at the same time, we have the dynasty up in Damara collapsing, and Damara begins to destabilize (certain baronies make the move to join the Vaasans, and civil war begins to brew). The Impilturrans march on Helgabal and restore order (through force).
That makes Damara the 'new Impiltur', but with a lot of the country being uneasy about what happened, and you'd still have whatever badness erupted in southern Impiltur to contend with. The Easting Coast (south) becomes some new Big Bad (like a 'Land of Ebil Wizards' - maybe like a combo of the Wizard's Reach cities and the Red Wizards), the 'middle ground' (The Uplands) becomes a war-torn no-man's land; any common folk left are all in hiding and the countryside has roaming fiends and monsters. And lastly, the Farwater becomes the 'heart' of New impiltur... at least until the court moves north and takes over Damara. I'm thinking a 'soft' takeover - they knock some heads, set of a regency council, and then most of the Impilturan leadership marches back to The farwater to deal with their own problems again.
This gives us an active (overt) threat to the south of 'Dampiltur', with a stalemate war situation in the middle, a background (covert) threat of the Warlock Knights messing with the council and situation in old Damara, and two (somewhat merged) populations of uneasy and unhappy commoners who are scared poopless about how everything is hanging by a thread.
Screw D&D - thats some Games of Thrones worthy geopolitical turmoil right there. Throw in a group of adventurers and stir the pot.
On the idea of red wizard's influence growing in the area, I would personally recommend growing an influence in the small cities towns of Blanaer, Kurth, King's Reach and possibly Maskyr's eye and then linking all of these back to Mulmaster. As an aside, King's Reach is relatively close to the ancient wizard's tower in Impiltur (name slipping my mind) that has ties to Narfell and Eltab, etc... I've always loved King's Reach as a city "just beyond the Reach of the Kings of Impiltur". Not saying "iron clad control", but more like "citizens LIKE the red wizards, and they think people have given them a bad name". Then have this "region" reenable the links to old enclaves in the vast and moonsea areas. It doesn't need to be overwhelming, and it shouldn't be, but it should be seen as coordinated. |
| Spectralballoons |
Posted - 21 Mar 2018 : 12:09:07
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Seems Yarin also changed the capital name to Helgabal (formerly it was named Heliogabalus, according to the book).
I'm just going to comment on how silly a name Heliogabalus is. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 21 Mar 2018 : 08:53:03
Thank god the computer games can be ignored canon-wise except where they have a novel/product/article follow up. Which I don't think Demon Stone did.
-- George Krashos |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Mar 2018 : 07:49:07
I just checked, Demon Stone was done in 2004, and that lore has nothing to do with anything I've seen published before or after. 
All of that would have had to have happened before the warlock Knights even show up - No-one can offer the country of Vaasa to anyone now. And the weird part is, RAS wrote the plot to that game, and it doesn't even appear to sync-up to his own books set in the area.
And WHY are Drizzt and Khelben Blackstaff hanging out in Vaasa? 
Also, Khelben's Tower was never destroyed. That 'lore' is just so odd.
It might be fun to incorporate Ygorl, Caminus, and Cireka into a new, canon plot, though, based on those events.  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Mar 2018 : 06:53:20
Also, to add to the above - NO drow, unless we go in an unexpected way with them (like I said, surface drow with a port would be weird/cool). Not the 'same old, same old' darkity-dark underworld dwellers that love Lolth and hate everything else. Thats gotten boring. I'm really loving the Duergar though... dwarves don't get enough FR love, and using them as antagonists would be very different. Why is we never think of hin and gnomes as threats?
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, I was kinda wrapping my mind around a North/South thing there myself (the country practically begs for it, geographically).
My "thing" only works if you put the High Pass back in the Impiltur/Damara map like the Fonstad map though!
-- George Krashos
Oh, the pass is most definitely still there - I just checked. I forgot I had erased that lake last night because I hated it, and wanted to redraw it in the morning with a fresh brain... and then forgot all about it until you just had me look over there. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Mar 2018 : 06:48:50
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Your idea of fusing Impiltur and Damara is good, but it seems like a waste to just disregard the LFR adventures, that actually helped to recover the region to a status close to what Impiltur was before the Spellplague.
When I am doing maps, the main thing I think about is what the place is like, and reasons why I would go there.
Impiltur was a great, very normal-seeming medieval style kingdom. I was just trying to think of a way to add tons of conflict and adventure seeds to it, is all. You know why no-one adventures in the Eastern Heartlands anymore? (other than the company focusing on the Western Heartlands and mosty The North.) Because in the west, there are BAD GUYS EVERYWHERE. What does the east have? The Nars haven't summoned anything in over a thousand years, and Richard Lee Byer's series turned Thay into a snooze-fest (not the novels themselves - just the outcome... oh look, it Mordor... without any Orcs...). Ohhh, then there's Zhentil Keep... the on-again, off-again 'Keystone Cops' Zhents? Only if I want to run a Scooby Doo chase scene. I hear the headless one is very dangerous... people laugh themselves to death.
And don't even get me started on Cormyr... "lets go hangout in a town!" {{{snore}}} 'The Dragon' wasn't the only thing that died in 3e... so did Cormyr's heart. I recall when I first read about Cormyr back in 1e/2e, and I was like, "I want to run games there!" Now I'm like, "I want to raise sheep there!"
Every single realm needs to have a problem. Preferably, a BIG one. One that needs adventurers to come help with. If I wanted to help a 175 year old woman collect taxes from the peasants I'd move to Britain.
And I thought at some point they back-peddled on the AL material in 4e being 'canon'. They retroactively 'ucanonized' everything, from what I understand (because I recall the the guys running that stuff were very angry when WotC pulled the carpet out form under them).
What happened in Demon Stone? I don't really like the idea of a second 'Border kingdoms' - there are plenty of those to go around (returned Abeir had its own version). Plus, the whole of The North is pretty-much that - just build a keep and start your own kingdom. Oh wait, you can't do that so easily because there are pesky BAD GUYS everywhere! There is a reason why Birthright flopped - not that many D&D RPGers want to run a kingdom. Its more fun to go out and kill monsters in person.
I almost forgot about The Great Dale and Thesk. Oh wait... so did everyone else.
The east needs at least one major (MONOLITHIC) storyline to get things moving over there again. The Warlock knights Weren't even that - that was just localized to the greater Bloodstone Lands (and I am lumping The Vast & Impiltur into that). Thay could have been it, but I feel they ruined Thay - Szass Tam has become a 'one trick pony' (Dread Rings everywhere! Bwa ha ha ha!!!) even a 'Thay Reclamation' would be too single-nation focused (which means we couldn't even find it usable as a regional plot device for at least another edition... I'm thinking November?)
The Warlock Knights in the north, and the fiend-crap going on in Impiltur (which is supposedly 'over', right?) is all we got to play with right now. I suppose we could do a 'return of the Nentyarch' scenario with the Nar (wake up Nar! You've been sleeping for FIVE editions!), but that would smell just like Return of the archwizards, and some of us still have gastro-abdominal troubles over that one. Especially since the only thing that popped into my head is that some idiot jump-started Larloch's old Enclave (I was thinking Krull, but once again, it sounds WAY too much like RotAW 2.0)
I'm getting kind of tired of the over-the-top threats, so that's why i keep thinking human ones. No undead, no orc hordes (maybe just some orcs... gotta have orcs... it IS D&D). No Aboleths, or cities full of Mindflayers or beholders, or 'Elder Evils', etc. A truly ancient Dragon could have worked as the BBG, but that was done in Cormyr. I even thought about a batch of Krakentua getting released somewhere in The Endless Wastes and they invade The Realms... but now we've got Attack on Titan with tentacles (although... thats not really too shabby...)
Maluagrym could also work - they could be the ones responsible for the southern cities of Impiltur turning on the nobility (in other words, local leaders were replaced with shapeshifters over time). this way its a 'human threat', but with a very unhuman power group behind them.
Just throwing ideas at the wall here, seeing what sticks. Its a tightrope - trying really hard to come up with a 'new kewl' idea, and NOT making it look like you were trying too hard. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 21 Mar 2018 : 06:33:24
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, I was kinda wrapping my mind around a North/South thing there myself (the country practically begs for it, geographically).
My "thing" only works if you put the High Pass back in the Impiltur/Damara map like the Fonstad map though!
-- George Krashos |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 21 Mar 2018 : 03:12:47
If I can suggest anything, I prefer Damara as the Realm for adventurers doing their own fiefdoms and stuff. Much like the Border Kingdoms, but in the North. I like to think that the ending of Demon Stone is canon, and that some parts of Damara are still under the leadership of Zhai (potentially the last survivor of the protagonists of the game), that are fighting against the rebel king.
Your idea of fusing Impiltur and Damara is good, but it seems like a waste to just disregard the LFR adventures, that actually helped to recover the region to a status close to what Impiltur was before the Spellplague.
Now, we can say that the nearly recovered Impiltur doesn't want the Warlock Knights to gain too much power, and because of that they went onto "conquering" Damara (deposing the despot king, or the Entreri lineage or whatever), to deal with the Warlock Knights and the demonic threat in the north.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now, we'd just have to figure out why the dragons were sent to live with the primordials (on Abeir), and the Giants were left on Toril with the Estelar (gods).
As for giants, dunno. But there were also giants in Abeir (see Fimbrul in Laerakond). Just, they were not the big players. Dragons owned them there, as they almost owned them in Faerūn.
As for dragons, primordials claim dragons are their creations. They count Asgorath (Io) as primordial, even if the gods claim him/her as one of the gods. So, conflicting origins. I guess the same can apply to giants, as Annam is claimed as a both a god and a primordial in 4e sources. |
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