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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Mar 2018 : 19:42:11
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Damara, land of... adventure? It once was. But in 3e it was pretty-much completely ignored, and became more like a "poor man's Impiltur" (although after what they did to impiltur in 4e, it might be the other way around now).
I recall we did a lot of work fleshing-out the Warlock Knights over on the WotC boards back in the day - I had created 2 NPCs myself (and one 'sort of' made it into canon on the 4e Vaasa map). Does anyone have a copy of that thread? I may have to track down Jeremy for that (He's had a couple of names here). Anyhow, the Warlock knights were one of the few bright spots in 4e, and it seems Rich Baker meant to do more with them, but never got the chance (one appeared in his Blades of the Moonsea series, trying to gain control of Thar by bringing the humanoid tribes to heel).
So Damara has Impiltur - what became a fiend-ridden 'hell on earth' for a time - to the south, and Vaasa - a place of potentially great evil to the north (so, sort of nothing new with vaasa - evil just changed its costume). They also have the 'no show' (do nothing at all for FIVE editions!) Nar to the east. The Galenas block them from bordering the Moonsea... I've toyed with giving them a port over there, through the mountains. THAT something that has a ton of potential.
So, before I make this so long no-one reads it, here is my one major premise I am turning around in my head - that its become something akin to Mendev in Pathfinder (Golarion). Lastwall is another very similar PF nation; paladin-run nations putting up 'the good fight' as a 'last bastion of humanity', or whatever against hordes of evil foes (Mendev has the World Wound, and Lastwall has an Orc/Humanoid nation). Thus, for a time during 4e, Damara would have been squashed between two highly volatile nations (with the potential for Narfell to refind their ancestral heritage as well). Now, things have 'simmered down' in Impiltur (or so I hear), but what of the Warlock Knights? They were making big 'power moves' in Rich's novel, and he is the guy who created that group, so it stands to reason that that was just one plot in a stew of hundreds.
I really feel like that whole 'square' of countries - Vaasa, Damara, The Vast, and Impiltur, are in desperate need of an update. Hopefully when I am done with the map we'll have a better visual reference to work with. I want this to become a 'workshop' thread.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Mar 2018 19:43:14
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2018 : 22:48:58
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The FR 4E campaign book comments that the royal line of Gareth Dragonsbane has died out. It appears that after the 100 year time jump, Damara is back to what it was in 2E - a scattered group of holdings.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2018 : 23:39:45
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Pretty much what George says. Damara was not used in 4e (as the focus was Vaasa), and there is little info about it. There was not even an adventure in the LFR program (that did helped Impultur to develop to its 5e status).
The little we know is that the last Dragonsbane heir (Brianne Dragonsbane) was killed like in 1459 DR and that the new king, Yarin Frostmantle, is a despot. We also know that the Tree Gem has died out and now demons from the south and new monsters from the Frostfell ("deadly creatures completely new to Faerūn") are haunting the lands. Plus, the Warlock Knights want to conquer Damara.
Seems Yarin also changed the capital name to Helgabal (formerly it was named Heliogabalus, according to the book).
The SCAG only adds this to the 4e info: "Few outside the region have much interest in what goes on here..."
Markustay, if you remember the name of the topic I can help you searching the wayback machine (as it seems Secrets of the Archmages is down). |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 18 Mar 2018 23:40:44 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 00:06:56
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| Jeremy is now posting at EN World now. I remember that thread. Good stuff. IIRC it was called "Lets Name the Warlock Knights of Vaasa". |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 01:39:30
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one of the latter drizzt novels was in damara....( mentioned grand master kane and the monastery of the yellow rose there )
even had the despot king killed off screen too...( allegedly by entreri)
the king is dead, long live the queen
and a off topic side note, but is it just me or is Drizzt leaning towards ilmater instead of mielikki these days.. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 19 Mar 2018 01:40:43 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 03:51:27
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| A lost heir to the Dragonsbane dynasty lives on in Vaasa, but is not yet aware of his birthright. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 04:20:50
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| yes and he uses the name entreri, but it was artemis who did it |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 04:41:11
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| Is that novel 5e or 4e? Because Yarin Frostmantle is still mentioned as the King of Damara in the SCAG. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 07:52:03
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RAS's books take place in their own version of FR... which eventually over-writes the real version. LOL
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The FR 4E campaign book comments that the royal line of Gareth Dragonsbane has died out. It appears that after the 100 year time jump, Damara is back to what it was in 2E - a scattered group of holdings.
-- George Krashos
I can work with all of that.
I was thinking about setting-up Kane as the 'Undying king' (but really more like a regent). I guess I can't play with Damara until I read RAS's novel. Damn... I had kicked my Drizzt habit. It seems RAS must not like what they did to HIS Damara and overwrote the 4e lore... and apparently, it seems, the 5e lore tried to re-overwrite him. 
Glad you joined the conversation Brian... I'm gonna need some input (I managed to get the wacky MotA map stuff all worked into a really nice psuedo-1e/2e translation (which is now also 5e). I'm glad the warped 3e/4e map geography is gone, but what a pain it is backwards-engineering newer stuff into the old layout. Also blended your 4e Vaasa into the older maps as well (that was even more of a trick than the northern Moonsea map was). Its one of the few areas that is more of an amalgam of editions, because it just works best that way. Damara is mostly the same - I messed with the rivers just a little bit, but that was more so that I could get the older Bloodstone lands maps to also work (before it even became part of the Realms). Its probably the happiest I've been with a map in a long time.
Impiltur (of course) and The Vast I'll be working closely with Krash on. I'll probably be sending him a semi-blank map soon for him to annotate. I just can't seem to come up with the perfect version of Icemelt lake - it changes on every map! Right now I've gone back to the Fonstad version, but its really way too big and funny looking like that (like a giant egg... or onion). of course, 3e really did a number on it - it was HUGE. Like one of the American 'Great Lakes'. I'll have to make it more interesting (and realistic). Everything else is pretty cut-&-dry, though.
Was working on Thar today - I have an early 4e map of the place from an article Rich Baker did on Thar, but I can't find the article anywhere. I found a completely different Thar article by Ed Greenwood (and the two don't quite conflict, but they don't reference the same things either... almost as if they were two different Thars...) And neither is very compatible with the old Elminster's Ecologies booklet (although I think Rich did use it as a reference, IIRC - I need to look at that article to know for sure). Part of the big problem RB had that I am having is translating the 2e maps stuff onto the 3e layout (which I am now working backwards from). Still, with all those articles, Thar is looking pretty filled up, which is what I wanted - lots of interesting things going on there now when it was mostly bare (and uninteresting to gamers) before.
That article by Ed had a lot more info than I had remembered (I do recall reading it awhile back) - lots of history of Thar, and connecting it to The Vast's orc kingdom (we were right - the orc kingdom eventually subsumed the decaying ogre one). But it says there was a giant kingdom before the Ogres, which is interesting - way too recent to have been Ostoria. And the only ones really left around are mostly frost giants up in the mountains all around that region (so if they are in the Galenas, that also puts them in Vaasa, Damara, and possibly northern Impiltur as well). I needed to steer this back - I don't really want to get into Thar in this thread - we have that other one I am going to pick-apart for stuff.
So I guess right now I need to find that old article by Rich Baker, and also I guess I am going to need to purchase some more Drizzt books. Damara as a cluster of ununified baronies/whatever isn't going to last against a concentrated push from Vaasa now. Any 4e/5e ideas of where to pull-in some 'help' from? Tielfings wouldn't work thematically (except maybe as new allies to Vaasa, which is the opposite of what I am looking for). Genasi are also the wrong flavor (isn't there a brand of 'ice' genie?). The only thing I can come up with is Dragonborn, but they are so over-use everywhere now. I don't think the new MToF book is going to help me - Gith certainly aren't going to care about the warlock Knights unless Telos turns out to be a 'squishy' (aberration).
Anything I am missing? Saber-Toothed Tabaxi? 
EDIT: Firbolgs! I love firbolgs, and so does RAS! Turns out there was a bunch of settlements of them in the mountains and all along the Great glacier. 
(as of five minutes ago, I mean) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Mar 2018 08:04:49 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 11:42:43
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| Drizzt went to Damara after Entreri did? Which novels are those? Granted, I'm probably 12 books behind on his novels. I think the last one I remember was the Pirate King, but I think I read one or two more. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 17:28:22
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| Have you fixed the issue where the Beaumaris River flows straight through the Galena Mountains? That one has bothered me for years. Seems to me that the Beaumaris should be split into two different rivers: one that flows west out of the Galenas and through the Clefts of Razack to the Bottomless Bogs, and a second river that flows east out of Bloodstone pass into Damara. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 18:41:08
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@Brian James - No, I haven't. Although that would make some sense geographically, we have it in canon where that was always one river - I just assume its a river valley that cuts straight through the mountain range. There are many more 'passes' you can see on older maps that the poor 3e style couldn't really illustrate, and I brought all of those back. Now, passes like that are usually caused by water activity (or rather, people follow the rivers, knowing water always finds the easiest path). So I have altered/extended many rivers throughout the Realms to better simulate normal river activity (having them begin in those passes).
I will have to take a better look at whats going on there - I just finished the upper Beumaris yesterday - the River Pelauvir running west out of Mirror Lake. Its all one great, big river system in Damara, and very confusing. That river, BTW, now has two contributaries running into those two mountain ranges (The Abbey and the White Peaks). Also, a LOT of what going on up there is all run-off from the glacier(s), so it's not so weird, really. All that water eventually finds its way down into the Great Imphras River running through Impiltur (which I suppose is a good thing, considering Impiltur strangely has no other rivers). Anyhow, the water is all constantly 'flowing down', even from the Bottomless Bogs (which are a remnant from when that was all under ice just few centuries ago). In fact, there is a correlation between the Sea of Fallen Stars and the melting of the Great Glacier. A meteorite may have caused the 'lakes region' that used to exist there turn into the shape the Inner Sea has now. but it would NOT have created the water - that all came via rivers from the melting glacier. Dig a deep enough hole, and water will find its way to it. 
But the main Beumaris has been split now by me, so I can make both the old canon/layout and the new canon/layout work together. The placement for that river on older maps was really only a contributory. For whatever reason, people seem to 'forget' about the real/main river and the crevasse/canyon going on there (methinks some sort of 'forget spell' affect so no-one disturbed Telos). Post-Spellplague, suddenly we have 'correct' maps and people recall the crevasse. I do love me some crevasses.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Drizzt went to Damara after Entreri did? Which novels are those? Granted, I'm probably 12 books behind on his novels. I think the last one I remember was the Pirate King, but I think I read one or two more.
I know, I am very confused right now. I am hoping someone was just getting things mixed-up. I know RAS created both sets of lore, and he merged them in the Sellswords novels, but I hadn't known Drizzt went there (And BTW, he was ALWAYS supposed to have been there - those stories and 'Icewind Dale' got shifted to the West Coast for some reason, just before the Realms got officially published, but there is some evidence of their original intent left - read the blurb on the back of FR9, The Bloodstone Lands!
So even though it makes NO SENSE geographically for Drizzt and Entreri (and the rest of the gangs) to be in Vaasa/Damara, it makes sense in that they are both RAS's material (so yeah, no actual logic beyond that man does whatever he wants). Just like it makes no sense Drizzt goes to Cadderly for all sorts of 'lore advice', completing ignoring the closer and better-equipped Candlekeep (I get the idea RAS doesn't like Candlekeep for some odd reason).
He only likes to use his own stuff... which on the one hand defeats the purpose of a 'shared world', but on the other, I have to say he is the one author who has done the least amount of damage to the setting (aside from Elaine and Ed... but they are demigods and above such things LOL).
But just once I'd like to see him use the damn name 'Erlkazar'; when a boatload of his stories take place there!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Mar 2018 18:57:07 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 20:19:10
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| I do not believe that Drizzt and Company ever went to The Bloodstone Lands in the Novels(That was Artemis and Mary Sue Jarlaxle). In the video game Demon Stone, I have no idea. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3743 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 22:59:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
I do not believe that Drizzt and Company ever went to The Bloodstone Lands in the Novels(That was Artemis and Mary Sue Jarlaxle). In the video game Demon Stone, I have no idea.
-Drizzt is in the game, but you meet him in Mithral Hall (where I guess he should be).
-You can play as Drizzt as a secret character in the Dark Alliance games also, but I would assume that is by no means canon. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2018 : 23:31:13
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think it was the last of the homecoming or whatever the last trilogy was.
shameless admition. I ahvent read it for sure though, I only read through the last chapter in it. KAne was in one of the scenes.
so 5e after scag or right before scag....
I get paid tomorrow so I think ill buy it to read. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
Edited by - sfdragon on 19 Mar 2018 23:33:38 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 00:27:32
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I posted some Monument of the Ancients questions in another old thread (or rather, brought those same questions forward in time).
The new map should be able to handle running any 1e/2e/3e/4e/5e adventure you want to throw at it - everything still works out (although I may have to do something about the Hulburg city map). I no longer have my {signed} hardcopy of the book; anyone happen to have Swordmage and can scan that map for me? The Epub file I have can't be expanded, AFAIK (text can be, but nothing else). Even when I grab a screenshot and blow it up, its REALLY bad. A lot of it I can't even read (but I suppose I could just pick through the novel for places). It doesn't match the older lore or map for Hulburg, but there is a very easy fix (Old {ruined} Hulburg is east of the river - the keep even winds up in the same exact spot that way). I really do NOT want to do another settlement map. I recently redid another settlement (I keep forgetting to post that) because I didn't like how poorly certain things fell out (the detailed map didn't really match the regional map's road layout). We'll see how popular the Moonsea Map becomes before I even think about dipping into Hulburg. I've been dying to get everything from that area in one map for years (every official map shows different stuff).
So, how do people feel about the Warlock Knights making deals with the drow of Sulasspryn? Maybe a joint 'rebuilding' project with the drow as 'silent partners'? A LOT has changed for them over the past century, and we really didn't know much about those drow anyway (except that they dig really good). The place could have a bit of a Nidal (Pathfinder) vibe to it (darkity dark DARK). I've just always wanted Drow to have a surface presence on the Moonsea - the region suits them well. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Mar 2018 16:15:00 |
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe
149 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 08:11:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
He only likes to use his own stuff... which on the one hand defeats the purpose of a 'shared world', but on the other, I have to say he is the one author who has done the least amount of damage to the setting.
Baffenburg ... 
The Swordsage |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 12:18:29
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| I don't see the Warlock Knights of Vaasa as ones who would be willing to work with dark elves unless they had somehow subjugated them. I can see them working with humanoids lacking a lot of intelligence, but not a partner who would continually be plotting some way to gain advantage. If they were to work with any underdark race, I'd bet it to be duergar, and probably something to do with trading felliron to them. It might even be interesting if the psionic duergar found a deeper secret to Felliron. Maybe it can be used in ways like psicrystals were, etc... Maybe when they construct statues of Deep Duerra and/or Laduguer with it, they believe that they establish a connection to their dead god/goddess (and maybe even that's true). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 12:24:39
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I don't see the Warlock Knights of Vaasa as ones who would be willing to work with dark elves unless they had somehow subjugated them. I can see them working with humanoids lacking a lot of intelligence, but not a partner who would continually be plotting some way to gain advantage. If they were to work with any underdark race, I'd bet it to be duergar, and probably something to do with trading felliron to them. It might even be interesting if the psionic duergar found a deeper secret to Felliron. Maybe it can be used in ways like psicrystals were, etc... Maybe when they construct statues of Deep Duerra and/or Laduguer with it, they believe that they establish a connection to their dead god/goddess (and maybe even that's true).
Ah, but what if the dead god of the Warlock Knights never actually existed? Perhaps the whole thing was a plot by drow, using a lot of magic, to gain surface influence without actually having to go there...  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 16:33:45
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Hmmmm... I like the Duergar angle - it makes a lot of sense. But then I'd have to spin things so that the duergar 'chased' the drow away... and anyone (but illithids or Halaster) 'scaring away drow' just doesn't feel right to me. Maybe if they collapsed a cavern and killed them all? That could work.
While the 'Telos was never real' angle is interesting, Wooly, it just doesn't work for me. In fact, I've spun things the other way - that Telos was always there - it was just his 'consciousness' that got returned (because I want to tie his body to Bloodstone, in a Salt in the Wounds kind of way). Imagine a comatose primordial finally awakening after 40K+ years, and finding out that great swaths of his flesh have been stripped away by 'little crawly things' (people). It's like the story of Prometheus on an epic scale.
I have to give this more thought. While I desperately want drow to have a presence on the Moonsea, I do like the idea of the duergar working with the Warlock knights. I also wanted Damara to gain a port on the Moonsea (a 'point of light' in a sea of darkness), but having both might be jumping the shark a bit (Duergar, Warlock Knights, Drow, AND Damara all having access to new ports). On the other hand, the Monsea is looking a bit 'dated', and could use some freshening up with new settlements and lore.
Any of you ever play World of Warcraft? (or is that stupid question?) There is a tunnel that runs between Stormwind and Ironforge maintained by the dwarves (with a tram!), and I was thinking maybe something along those lines for the WK/Duergar partnership. As much as I would love the train, though, I know others would hate it, so no train LOL. Maybe just a system of enchanted mining carts? (but at that point, whats the difference?) Anyhow, it's just the seed of an idea - that the Warlock Knights have decided going under the mountains rather than over them is more efficient... even if they do have to deal with the Duergar.
quote:
Originally posted by Swordsage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
He only likes to use his own stuff... which on the one hand defeats the purpose of a 'shared world', but on the other, I have to say he is the one author who has done the least amount of damage to the setting.
Baffenburg ...
While I agree that that piece of lore is especially 'smelly', what did it affect? You'll note it was never mentioned/addressed in the GHotR - they've simply ignored it (as they should). Thats my whole point - RAS lore doesn't really affect anything outside his own separate reality.
THEORY: Drizzt is lying in a hospital bed in a coma in Silverymoon. He has been since he was found by outriders of that city wandering delirious in the nearby hills. No-one knows what to do with him; apparently, according to folk in Icewind Dale - he and his companions set off to go kill a dragon, and never returned.
Thus, EVERYTHING after the first book or two is things going on inside Drizzt's fevered and delusional head. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Mar 2018 18:31:56 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 17:05:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I don't see the Warlock Knights of Vaasa as ones who would be willing to work with dark elves unless they had somehow subjugated them. I can see them working with humanoids lacking a lot of intelligence, but not a partner who would continually be plotting some way to gain advantage. If they were to work with any underdark race, I'd bet it to be duergar, and probably something to do with trading felliron to them. It might even be interesting if the psionic duergar found a deeper secret to Felliron. Maybe it can be used in ways like psicrystals were, etc... Maybe when they construct statues of Deep Duerra and/or Laduguer with it, they believe that they establish a connection to their dead god/goddess (and maybe even that's true).
Ah, but what if the dead god of the Warlock Knights never actually existed? Perhaps the whole thing was a plot by drow, using a lot of magic, to gain surface influence without actually having to go there...
I can't buy that either... that'd be a lot of effort for next to nothing. Creating some kind of auto-reproducing magical iron entity supposedly from the body of a primordial.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 17:17:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hmmmm... I like the Duergar angle - it makes a lot of sense. But then I'd have to spin things so that the duergar 'chased' the drow away... and anyone (but illithids or Halaster) 'scaring away drow' just doesn't feel right to me. Maybe if they collapsed a cavern and killed them all? That could work.
While the 'Telos was never real' angle is interesting, Wooly, it just doesn't work for me. In fact, I've spun things the other way - that Telos was always there - it was just his 'consciousness' that got returned (because I want to tie his body to Bloodstone, in a Salt in the Wounds kind of way). Imagine a comatose primordial finally awakening after 40K+ years, and finding out that great swaths of his flesh have been stripped away by 'little crawly things' (people). It's like the story of Prometheus on an epic scale.
I have to give this more thought. While I desperately want drow to have a presence on the Moonsea, I do like the idea of the duergar working with the Warlock knights. I also wanted Damara to gain a port on the Moonsea (a 'point of light' in a sea of darkness), but having both might be jumping the shark a bit (Duergar, Warlock Knights, Drow, AND Damara all having access to new ports). On the other hand, the Monsea is looking a bit 'dated', and could use some freshening up with now settlements and lore.
Any of you ever play World of Warcraft? (or is that stupid question?) There is a tunnel that runs between Stormwind and Ironforge maintained by the dwarves (with a tram!), and I was thinking maybe something along those lines for the WK/Duergar partnership. As much as I would love the train, though, I know others would hate it, so no train LOL. Maybe just a system of enchanted mining carts? (but at that point, whats the difference?) Anyhow, it's just the seed of an idea - that the Warlock Knights have decided going under the mountains rather than over them is more efficient... even if they do have to deal with the Duergar.
I could buy this concept, and it doesn't even have to be anything special as you say. It could be as simple as caravans that traverse the underdark under duergar protection. Maybe they even enable trade FOR the duergar in this passing (i.e. coming from Vaasa they bring felliron, coming back to Vaasa, they bring things from elsewhere). Thus, the duergar simply have to maintain this pathway for caravans. They can even handle the transfer of goods from wagons to steeders and pack lizards, then on the other side to wagons again that head down to a port (perhaps in Thar?). The duergar may use goblinoids as slaves for this transporting of goods, and perhaps whenever the caravans travel the surface to the port, maybe they provide additional escort that also work as slavers (as in they'll protect the caravan as over the top muscle... and if they see any goblinoids, orcs, or even ogres, the duergar leave the caravan to go capture them). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 18:10:50
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I don't see the Warlock Knights of Vaasa as ones who would be willing to work with dark elves unless they had somehow subjugated them. I can see them working with humanoids lacking a lot of intelligence, but not a partner who would continually be plotting some way to gain advantage. If they were to work with any underdark race, I'd bet it to be duergar, and probably something to do with trading felliron to them. It might even be interesting if the psionic duergar found a deeper secret to Felliron. Maybe it can be used in ways like psicrystals were, etc... Maybe when they construct statues of Deep Duerra and/or Laduguer with it, they believe that they establish a connection to their dead god/goddess (and maybe even that's true).
Ah, but what if the dead god of the Warlock Knights never actually existed? Perhaps the whole thing was a plot by drow, using a lot of magic, to gain surface influence without actually having to go there...
I can't buy that either... that'd be a lot of effort for next to nothing. Creating some kind of auto-reproducing magical iron entity supposedly from the body of a primordial....
I was just tossing it out there.
Me, I don't like primordials, and I really hate the way the 4E designers decided there were too many gods -- and then immediately added more.
I like the idea of the Warlock Knights, I'm just not a fan of the existing backstory. Especially a primordial who happened to fall from the sky, and whose name is one letter off from the name of a deity associated with the sky. That's just weak sauce. What's next, a primordial associated with combat named Tenpus? |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Mar 2018 18:14:07 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 18:54:42
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Yeah, I don't care for the name either, but it is what it is (and in the case of these truly ancient, likely psionic beings, 'names' are probably all something the mortals give them anyway).
I also didn't like him 'falling from the sky', and since I wanted him linked to Bloodstone, I respun it that it was just his consciousness that 'fell to earth' (and we do have some precedents for that - elder beings who's 'minds' were separated from their physical forms, because it was the only way to contain them). Picture his 'soul' (or whatever - the 'energy' that makes up a God) - being trapped in an egg-like meteor floating in Abeirspace, and then the Spellplague hits, and that (and maybe others like it) come careening into regular (Realm)space and reattach to their physical bodies. I think that's what really happened when Ao 'twinned the world' - he split certain problematic beings as well (and we see this 'splitting of gods' repeating itself over time).
Does that work better for you? NO primordials ever 'came to Toril'; we even have some proof of that with the one from Neverwinter/Gauntlgrym. They have always been buried beneath Toril, and its their minds/spirits that got 'locked away' in the side-plane of Abeir. I also happen to think the Giants and dragons were supposed to be seperated in the same fashion, but somehow, the dragons 'made it back' to Toril. Now, that means the those two groups would have taken sides during the Dawn War, and if that's the case, the giants would have most certainly sided with the primordials (because 'Titans' are in both groups). So that leaves us with the dragons having sided with 'The Gods' (Estelar back then), which also makes a LOT of sense, since I think many of the draconic deities are the proto-gods in other pantheons.
Now, we'd just have to figure out why the dragons were sent to live with the primordials (on Abeir), and the Giants were left on Toril with the Estelar (gods). Maybe the point was to deny each group of combatants their troops? And thus any chance of them raising armies against each other again? That just seems a bit... vague. It could just be that the dragons were causing too many problems (wanton destruction) and Ao decided they should go to Abeir (which was meant to almost be some sort of 'prison', or 'cosmic time-out'). Perhaps the dragons were meant to be the caretakers/jailors? And they became corrupted with power over time? That would certainly work for what we know of Abeir.
As for the giants, they seem to have gotten some sort of magical lobotomy. Its almost like all of them - from Cloud Giants to Cyclops down to Ogres - have been getting dumber over time. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Mar 2018 02:02:42 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 19:09:51
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Anyhow, back to Damara...
Whats going on in Impiltur, Krash? I mean, how you would like to see things play out there? Is that going to be the 'paladin state', because then I wouldn't re-do that for Damara. Having them both be "last lines of defense" type paladin-states would be way too much like PF's setting with Lastwall and Mendev (and poor Impiltur becomes the 'poor man's version' of Lastwall in that scenario). It also doesn't make as much sense for impiltur, because they don't really have any 'big bads' from outside; their troubles were internal.
If they keep Thay as FR's Mordor, Impiltur would make a great place for the Red Wizards to set up shop again... but I know you'd be having NONE of that.
But think on it... a nation of fiend-summoning and worshiping archwizards. It certainly would be interesting from an RPG perspective. Bring back the citadel of the conjurors. It has a lot of traction, and then we'd have poor Damara really being 'trapped between a rock and a hard place'. And you can't really swap that scenario around, because Impiltur doesn't have the same dynamics going on as Damara does (we'd windup with two 'big bads' next to each other. And Impiltur only really having to deal with crap on the one side, not 'all around').
Wait a minute.... 
How about an ACTUAL swap? The fiends won, and the royal court, nobles, surviving army, and whatever citizens that could fled north into Damara... and set-up there? 
Feel like changing geography, George? It could work, you know. It could become something AMAZING, actually. Blend Damara and Impiltur together and have 'old Impiltur' be a foul place that needs saving.
And then you'd also have the sub-plot of that one surviving 'lost heir' that must eventually be contended with (I would assume the 'nice' way to handle that would be with intermarriage between the two royal lines).
And bring-back 'the lost princess' while you are at it. I've always felt sorry for her. Maybe she's been living in Umberlee's realm all this time (dead or not, does it really matter in a D&D/fantasy setting... AT ALL?) Maybe you can marry HER off to the 'lost heir', and then you'd have a whole 'lost dynasty'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Mar 2018 01:58:44 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 19:39:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, I don't care for the name either, but it is what it is (and in the case of these truly ancient, likely psionic beings, 'names' are probably all something the mortals give them anyway).
I also didn't like him 'falling from the sky', and since I wanted him linked to Bloodstone, I respun it that it was just his consciousness that 'fell to earth' (and we do have some precedents for that - elder beings who's 'minds' were separated from their physical forms, because it was the only way to contain them). Picture his 'soul' (or whatever - the 'energy' that makes up a God) - being trapped in an egg-like meteor floating in Abeirspace, and then the Spellplague hits, and that (and maybe others like it) come careening into regular (Realm)space and reattach to their physical bodies. I think that's what really happened when Ao 'twinned the world' - he split certain problematic beings as well (and we see this 'splitting of gods' repeating itself over time).
Does that work better for you? NO primordials ever 'came to Toril'; we even have some proof of that with the one from Neverwinter/Gauntlgrym. They have always been buried beneath Toril, and its their minds/spirits that got 'locked away' in the side-plane of Abeir. I also happen to think the Giants and dragons were supposed to be seperated in the same fashion, but somehow, the dragons 'made it back' to Toril. Now, that means the those two groups would have taken sides during the Dawn War, and if that's the case, the giants would have most certainly sided with the primordials (because 'Titans' are in both groups). So that leaves us with the dragons having sided with 'The Gods' (Estelar back then), which also makes a LOT of sense, since I think many of the draconic deities are the proto-gods in other pantheons.
Now, we'd just have to figure out why the dragons were sent to live with the primordials (on Abeir), and the Giants were left on Toril with the Estelar (gods). Maybe the point was to deny each group of combatants their troops? And thus any chance of them raising armies against each other again? that just seems a bit... vague. It could just be that the dragons were just causing too many problems (wanton destruction) and Ao decided they should go to Abeir (which was meant to almost be some sort of 'prison', or 'cosmic time-out'). Perhaps the dragons were meant to be the caretakers/jailors? nd they became corrupted with power over time? That would certainly work for what we know of Abeir.
As for the giants, they seem to have gotten some sort of magical lobotomy. Its almost like all of them - from Cloud Giants to Cyclops down to Ogres - have been getting dumber over time.
I don't like primordials at all, since it is a simply messy retcon. The whole issue of primordials causes way more problems than it is worth.
I like the bloodstone angle, though... Perhaps something else trapped in a giant bloodstone formation, and they use shards of that bloodstone to power their goodies.
Maybe the Dark Three trapped one of the Seven Lost Gods in this bloodstone? Or perhaps it's a unique type of demoncyst, and the power comes from the multiple trapped fiends... |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2018 : 21:30:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Anyhow, back to Damara...
Whats going on in Impiltur, Krash? I mean, how you would like to see things play out there? Is that going to be the 'paladin state', because then I wouldn't re-do that for Damara. Having them both be "last lines of defense" type paladin-states would be way too much like PF's setting with Lastwall and Mendev (and poor Impiltur becomes the 'poor man's version' of Lastwall in that scenario). It also doesn't make as much sense for impiltur, because they don't really have any 'big bads' from outside; their troubles were internal.
If they keep Thay as FR's Mordor, Impiltur would make a great place for the red Wizards to set up shop again... but I know you'd be having NONE of that.
But think on it... a nation of fiend-summoning and worshiping archwizards. It certainly would be interesting from an RPG perspective. Bring back the citadel of the conjurors. Iyt has a lot of traction, and then we'd have poor damara really being 'trapped between a rock and a hard place'. And you can't really swap that scenario around, because Impiltur doesn't have the same dynamics going on as Damara does (we'd windup with two 'big bads' next to each other. And Impiltur only really having to deal with crap on the one side, not 'all around').
Wait a minute....
How about an ACTUAL swap? The fiends won, and the royal court, nobles, surviving army, and whatever citizens that could fled north into Damara... and set-up shop there?
Feel like changing geography, George? It could work, you know. It could become something AMAZING, actually. Blend Damara and Impiltur together and have 'old Impiltur' be a foul place that needs saving.
And then you'd also have the sub-plot of that one surviving 'lost heir' that must eventually be contended with (I would assume the 'nice' way to handle that would be with intermarriage between the two royal lines).
And bring-back 'the lost princess' while you are at it. I've always felt sorry for her. Maybe she's been living in Umberlee's realm all this time (dead or not, does it really matter in a D&D/fantasy setting... AT ALL?) Maybe you can marry HER off to the 'lost heir', and then you'd have a whole 'lost dynasty'.
I've been having some thoughts lately spurred by me sorting out the post-Spellplague royal lines of Tethyr and Impiltur. In formative stages, but I can say that Impiltur is no longer a paladin state. Well, not all of it.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2018 : 01:57:29
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Yeah, I was kinda wrapping my mind around a North/South thing there myself (the country practically begs for it, geographically).
My thoughts ran toward the impitularans fleeing north in the face of 'insurmountable odds', such that the government would be a 'kingdom in exile' (along with any commoners who were able to make it out). They would 'set up shop' in the northern part of Impiltur - the lands they never fully claimed before (everything north of Trader's Bay - The Farwater)). Then at the same time, we have the dynasty up in Damara collapsing, and Damara begins to destabilize (certain baronies make the move to join the Vaasans, and civil war begins to brew). The Impilturrans march on Helgabal and restore order (through force).
That makes Damara the 'new Impiltur', but with a lot of the country being uneasy about what happened, and you'd still have whatever badness erupted in southern Impiltur to contend with. The Easting Coast (south) becomes some new Big Bad (like a 'Land of Ebil Wizards' - maybe like a combo of the Wizard's Reach cities and the Red Wizards), the 'middle ground' (The Uplands) becomes a war-torn no-man's land; any common folk left are all in hiding and the countryside has roaming fiends and monsters. And lastly, the Farwater becomes the 'heart' of New impiltur... at least until the court moves north and takes over Damara. I'm thinking a 'soft' takeover - they knock some heads, set of a regency council, and then most of the Impilturan leadership marches back to The farwater to deal with their own problems again.
This gives us an active (overt) threat to the south of 'Dampiltur', with a stalemate war situation in the middle, a background (covert) threat of the Warlock Knights messing with the council and situation in old Damara, and two (somewhat merged) populations of uneasy and unhappy commoners who are scared poopless about how everything is hanging by a thread.
Screw D&D - thats some Games of Thrones worthy geopolitical turmoil right there. Throw in a group of adventurers and stir the pot. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Mar 2018 05:31:10 |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2018 : 03:12:47
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If I can suggest anything, I prefer Damara as the Realm for adventurers doing their own fiefdoms and stuff. Much like the Border Kingdoms, but in the North. I like to think that the ending of Demon Stone is canon, and that some parts of Damara are still under the leadership of Zhai (potentially the last survivor of the protagonists of the game), that are fighting against the rebel king.
Your idea of fusing Impiltur and Damara is good, but it seems like a waste to just disregard the LFR adventures, that actually helped to recover the region to a status close to what Impiltur was before the Spellplague.
Now, we can say that the nearly recovered Impiltur doesn't want the Warlock Knights to gain too much power, and because of that they went onto "conquering" Damara (deposing the despot king, or the Entreri lineage or whatever), to deal with the Warlock Knights and the demonic threat in the north.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now, we'd just have to figure out why the dragons were sent to live with the primordials (on Abeir), and the Giants were left on Toril with the Estelar (gods).
As for giants, dunno. But there were also giants in Abeir (see Fimbrul in Laerakond). Just, they were not the big players. Dragons owned them there, as they almost owned them in Faerūn.
As for dragons, primordials claim dragons are their creations. They count Asgorath (Io) as primordial, even if the gods claim him/her as one of the gods. So, conflicting origins. I guess the same can apply to giants, as Annam is claimed as a both a god and a primordial in 4e sources. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2018 : 06:33:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, I was kinda wrapping my mind around a North/South thing there myself (the country practically begs for it, geographically).
My "thing" only works if you put the High Pass back in the Impiltur/Damara map like the Fonstad map though!
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2018 : 06:48:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Your idea of fusing Impiltur and Damara is good, but it seems like a waste to just disregard the LFR adventures, that actually helped to recover the region to a status close to what Impiltur was before the Spellplague.
When I am doing maps, the main thing I think about is what the place is like, and reasons why I would go there.
Impiltur was a great, very normal-seeming medieval style kingdom. I was just trying to think of a way to add tons of conflict and adventure seeds to it, is all. You know why no-one adventures in the Eastern Heartlands anymore? (other than the company focusing on the Western Heartlands and mosty The North.) Because in the west, there are BAD GUYS EVERYWHERE. What does the east have? The Nars haven't summoned anything in over a thousand years, and Richard Lee Byer's series turned Thay into a snooze-fest (not the novels themselves - just the outcome... oh look, it Mordor... without any Orcs...). Ohhh, then there's Zhentil Keep... the on-again, off-again 'Keystone Cops' Zhents? Only if I want to run a Scooby Doo chase scene. I hear the headless one is very dangerous... people laugh themselves to death.
And don't even get me started on Cormyr... "lets go hangout in a town!" {{{snore}}} 'The Dragon' wasn't the only thing that died in 3e... so did Cormyr's heart. I recall when I first read about Cormyr back in 1e/2e, and I was like, "I want to run games there!" Now I'm like, "I want to raise sheep there!"
Every single realm needs to have a problem. Preferably, a BIG one. One that needs adventurers to come help with. If I wanted to help a 175 year old woman collect taxes from the peasants I'd move to Britain.
And I thought at some point they back-peddled on the AL material in 4e being 'canon'. They retroactively 'ucanonized' everything, from what I understand (because I recall the the guys running that stuff were very angry when WotC pulled the carpet out form under them).
What happened in Demon Stone? I don't really like the idea of a second 'Border kingdoms' - there are plenty of those to go around (returned Abeir had its own version). Plus, the whole of The North is pretty-much that - just build a keep and start your own kingdom. Oh wait, you can't do that so easily because there are pesky BAD GUYS everywhere! There is a reason why Birthright flopped - not that many D&D RPGers want to run a kingdom. Its more fun to go out and kill monsters in person.
I almost forgot about The Great Dale and Thesk. Oh wait... so did everyone else.
The east needs at least one major (MONOLITHIC) storyline to get things moving over there again. The Warlock knights Weren't even that - that was just localized to the greater Bloodstone Lands (and I am lumping The Vast & Impiltur into that). Thay could have been it, but I feel they ruined Thay - Szass Tam has become a 'one trick pony' (Dread Rings everywhere! Bwa ha ha ha!!!) even a 'Thay Reclamation' would be too single-nation focused (which means we couldn't even find it usable as a regional plot device for at least another edition... I'm thinking November?)
The Warlock Knights in the north, and the fiend-crap going on in Impiltur (which is supposedly 'over', right?) is all we got to play with right now. I suppose we could do a 'return of the Nentyarch' scenario with the Nar (wake up Nar! You've been sleeping for FIVE editions!), but that would smell just like Return of the archwizards, and some of us still have gastro-abdominal troubles over that one. Especially since the only thing that popped into my head is that some idiot jump-started Larloch's old Enclave (I was thinking Krull, but once again, it sounds WAY too much like RotAW 2.0)
I'm getting kind of tired of the over-the-top threats, so that's why i keep thinking human ones. No undead, no orc hordes (maybe just some orcs... gotta have orcs... it IS D&D). No Aboleths, or cities full of Mindflayers or beholders, or 'Elder Evils', etc. A truly ancient Dragon could have worked as the BBG, but that was done in Cormyr. I even thought about a batch of Krakentua getting released somewhere in The Endless Wastes and they invade The Realms... but now we've got Attack on Titan with tentacles (although... thats not really too shabby...)
Maluagrym could also work - they could be the ones responsible for the southern cities of Impiltur turning on the nobility (in other words, local leaders were replaced with shapeshifters over time). this way its a 'human threat', but with a very unhuman power group behind them.
Just throwing ideas at the wall here, seeing what sticks. Its a tightrope - trying really hard to come up with a 'new kewl' idea, and NOT making it look like you were trying too hard. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Mar 2018 06:58:05 |
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Lets talk about Damara
