| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 14:32:47
Question just occurred to me:
What is the significance of the horns from Horned Rings (the special teleportation rings from Undermountain)?
I have to assume the horns are more than just decoration but can't think of any reason for them.
Ideas?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 21:42:39
I could have SWORN I saw a sigil for Halaster somewhere, and IIRC correctly, it was extremely similar to Elminster's. Don't ask me where... I can narrow it down to 'something I read in the past 30 years'. 
I am not adverse to the rings doing 'other things' (I like the very simple idea of Halaster using it as a key... I saw that in some movie...). I just think the 'Horned' part was meant to be more than that.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
As mentioned somewhere above, minotaurs have an instinctive ability to navigate labyrinths (and are immune to the maze spell in some editions). These rings teleport through the Underdark, arguably one of the biggest mazes in the D&D cosmos. So the horns might be symbolic of minotaurs, not of fiends.
Ayup.
But apparently, you were the only one who understood where I was trying to go with that; its a 'related magic' kind of thing. In the old MM's we sometimes had uses for body-parts of the critters, and it was always tied to their innate abilities. I was trying to do something along those lines. From the 2e Monster manual -
quote:
Minotaur components are sometimes used in spells and potions, and might be used in magical items involving strength, location, and misdirection.
.
Not that someone like Ed Greenwood would ever consider make something 'flavorful'. {sarcasm}  |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 17:13:29
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The so-called Horned Hand or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sign_of_the_horns
Perhaps Halaster actually used these distinctive rings for activating or bypassing spells (magic mouth, alarm, glyphs of warding, programmed illusion, contingency, Xult's magical doom, etc) which are triggered by visual tokens.
Or as some sort of reusable material-somatic component which must be worn when casting certain custom/modified spells or when using certain custom/modified magical items.
Or as a kind of mechanical "key" for opening certain locks (like, say, those on his spellbooks). Place the horn points within indentations and twist open ...
Or even as a physical representation of his own personal wizard mark. I do not believe it is actually described anywhere in Realmslore (surprisingly) - and if it isn't then why not have it look something like a ring with two horns?
I like this idea. It had never occurred to me that Halaster doesn't have a sigil - and yes, this is very strange considering we have sigils for the 3rd level apprentice at Darkhold :P
Were this the case, there's no reason the rings couldn't fill multiple of these ideas. Function as ward tokens, be linked to other magics, etc.
In fact, the ability to bypass all the teleportation restrictions in Undermountain is already very similar to a ward token. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 07:56:09
The so-called Horned Hand or Sign of the Horns is said to be, among other things, a powerful gesture for warding evil. Perhaps this is invoked within the construction of these Horned Rings.
Perhaps Halaster actually used these distinctive rings for activating or bypassing spells (magic mouth, alarm, glyphs of warding, programmed illusion, contingency, Xult's magical doom, etc) which are triggered by visual tokens.
Or as some sort of reusable material-somatic component which must be worn when casting certain custom/modified spells or when using certain custom/modified magical items.
Or as a distinctive signet for simple impressioning on writings. Dip in ink, press on page ...
Or as a kind of mechanical "key" for opening certain locks (like, say, those on his spellbooks). Place the horn points within indentations and twist open ...
Or even as a physical representation of his own personal wizard mark. I do not believe it is actually described anywhere in Realmslore (surprisingly) - and if it isn't then why not have it look something like a ring with two horns?
As mentioned somewhere above, minotaurs have an instinctive ability to navigate labyrinths (and are immune to the maze spell in some editions). These rings teleport through the Underdark, arguably one of the biggest mazes in the D&D cosmos. So the horns might be symbolic of minotaurs, not of fiends. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 05:02:06
I should like to make it clear that I'm not adverse to the idea that the horns have some significance... I just don't see what it could possibly be, and I also don't see a reason to assume significance, beyond the fact that they are something rather different. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 04:22:19
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Ok - so - however you want to imagine devils and demons and fiends and Mystra and Asmodeus is fine.
Back to the question at hand.
Why horns on horned rings?
Any thoughts other than some fiend connection?
The funny thing is, despite all my ramblings above, I decided against fiends, and still think it would be more approriate to connect them to minotaurs.
Which I already said.
Other than that, what else with horns could they possibly be connected to? Fiends teleport, and minotaurs 'can find their way around'. I can't think of any other association.
The Mythal itself was original Elven, and 'The Horned God' is a fey deity (Master of the Wild Hunt), and would probably translate easily into an early aspect of Corellon... but thats really reaching.
Some dragons have horns. So do unicorns. Both creatures are heavily associated with magic (I can see powdered unicorn horn being used to 'bypass' certain anti-magical effects).
But, it probably is just an aesthetic thing - he isn't sometimes called 'the Fiend of Undermountain" for nothing, so creating evil-looking rings would just add to his mystique. I can definitely see him liking that. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 03:55:33
This being Halaster, he probably thought it was amusing. A ring with protrusions poking out of it is going to be pretty uncomfortable for your other fingers. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 02:42:07
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think it's just an aesthetics thing. It's something distinctive.
This is a distinct possibility.
Pretty much the only magic item creator that was big on aesthetics back in the old days was Ed, who wrote this ring up. Still, to me it is a bit too specific to have no purpose or meaning.
In my mind this means that it could possibly one of Ed's little hints that we never thought to consider. Possibly a clue about Halaster. Possibly something else. Try as I might I was not able to come up with anything convincing so I was hoping the hive mind might. :)
My thinking is that so long as it's a ring, there's not much you can do to make it distinctive. Sure, you can make it be this metal, set with this gemstone, cut in such-and-such a way and flanked by something else -- but that's like 90% of the rings out there. The rest are either plain, or they've got some patterned etched into them. There's only so much you can do with a circular chunk of material... Doing something utterly non-standard is pretty much the only way to make it distinctive. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 16 Feb 2018 : 02:14:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think it's just an aesthetics thing. It's something distinctive.
This is a distinct possibility.
Pretty much the only magic item creator that was big on aesthetics back in the old days was Ed, who wrote this ring up. Still, to me it is a bit too specific to have no purpose or meaning.
In my mind this means that it could possibly one of Ed's little hints that we never thought to consider. Possibly a clue about Halaster. Possibly something else. Try as I might I was not able to come up with anything convincing so I was hoping the hive mind might. :) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 22:28:51
I think it's just an aesthetics thing. It's something distinctive. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 22:01:22
Ok - so - however you want to imagine devils and demons and fiends and Mystra and Asmodeus is fine.
Back to the question at hand.
Why horns on horned rings?
Any thoughts other than some fiend connection? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 20:00:04
*Ugh* - sorry about the 'wall of text' - its so hard for me to 'boil down' my points, since so many of them are based off other musings of mine. Apologies all around.
As for Set's lineage, it fits perfectly within my own hierarchy. Nu (Nun) = the Primal Chaos from whence GOD (or rather, the consciousness of the universe itself), sprang forth. This immediately split into the Divine Masculine & Divine Feminine, or Shu & Tefnut. These are still 'abstracts'. These two create the Supernals - the most basic Laws of the Universe, and they are in pairs (six created by the Divine Masculine, and six by the Divine Feminine), and are thus normally portrayed as pairs of males and females (although that very concept didn't exist at that time). Two of them were Ymir and Gaea - The Prime Material (Firmament), and the 'Lifeforce' (Aeon). In the Pharonic pantheon these Supernals would be known as Geb & Nut. Along with the other Supernals they create the Elder Gods (Primordials & Estelar). Once again, we are talking about the living embodiment of primal concepts here, so you could just as easily say those gods arose 'spontaneously' from the void, because it amounts to the same exact thing.
Thus Set's creation fits within the D&D Monomyth I've created. 
the whole concept of 'deity' would not arise until much later, when some of these beings began to work on the Creatori - The Creator races. Although, the idea of 'ascendance through adulation' was probably first discovered by the Jōtunbrūd, which included the primordial giants (Jotuns), as well as the dwarves and dragons. After the 'great war' between those three groups, they became know as the Procreators, because they pre-existed the Creatori. These, BTW, would be Celestial/planer versions of those three groups, so they are mostly nonexistent anymore. The ones we know today are almost universally of the terrestrial variety, of MUCH lesser status. So now, when folks used the more ancient version of 'Jōtunbrūd', they are referring to just the planer giants (Jotuns), which was what was left of the group post Godswar.
I may come up with yet another term for that earlier group, to avoid confusion (Jōtani?) 'Gigantes' may be better, but still somewhat misleading. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 19:20:07
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Set's issues with Apep are a regional issue with the Egyptian pantheon. Apep doesn't give a crap about Lathander or Surya or Pholtus or Pelor, he just wants to kill Ra and eat him, erasing his presence in all worlds ruled over by the Egyptian pantheon. Set, for all his evil, has been Ra's defender since the pantheon rose; he probably hates Apep more than he hates Osiris. Also, Set actually does have parents - Geb and Nut. He's Ozzy's brother.
Asmodeus probably predates Set. The Baatorians had already abandoned Baator when Asmodeus fell, leaving it empty. Set probably moved Ankhwugat to Baator when Nephthys divorced him.
Gonna be honest, a lot of this sounds like complexity for the sake of complexity.
While I completely get a LOT of what I do - marrying all the different folklore and pantheons (even ones from other IPs) - steps on a lot of the in-mythos lore, I assume all 'religions' are world-specific, and the details change from world to world. For example, on Earth we have one set of history for the Egyptian Pantheon, and on Toril we have a somewhat different set of history for the Pharonic Pantheon... yet both are the same group. The lore is still viable, because its world-specific. The only lore that matters to ALL settings is the lore that predates all settings - the Time Before Time, when there were no worlds (Crystal Spheres) and there probably weren't any real pantheons ether (just 'cliques' of gods that hung together, mostly through 'family ties').
The funny thing is, I've already connected fiends to my proto-Pharonic pantheon, via Baast and the Raksasha. Unfortunately, those are demons (or perhaps ex-demons, now... hard to say when something changes like that). However, the whole 'Good vs Evil' thing didn't come about until AFTER the Dawn War (which was about Law vs Chaos). Many lawful 'evil' gods sided with the forces of good during that war (Gruumsh did, which implies he may have been more lawful at one time, or at least neutral). Before that war, anything below the 'god tier' was a celestial, including Asmodeus and the Rakshasa. In fact, nearly all of this terminology is from a mortal perspective - Asian folklore doesn't really different between the good and bad versions of stuff; like mortals, its mostly on an individual basis.
Thus, in my Overcosmology (or 'Monomyth', if you prefer), I try to come up with a more generic, universal set of myths that mostly work within all the myths and folklore (and D&D lore). It especially works well for the Pharonics, because we already have a canon example of two sets of mythos for the same group. Also, when researching Set last night, he turns out he's had children with two goddesses from non-Egyptian pantheons! He actually has a RW history of 'mucking about' within other pantheons!!! He's the ultimate interloper!
The Asmodeus/Set connection is easy to make, because they are both portrayed as the 'right-hand man' of God(s), who then, over time, became 'evil'. And not so much through their own doing, as it as just their portfolios (or 'job', as in Asmodeus' case) made mortals view them that way. I see them both as 'amoral', rather than immoral. They don't care who gets hurt, so long as they get the job done. They would scoff at 'good', because good is inefficient. In Asmodeus's case, this might stem from his proximity to Ahriman (who also wasn't truly evil - he held the universe together with his 'good' brother and created the Great Wheel, sacrificing his own mobility/identity in the process).
Only a mortal would view sacrificing millions (billions?) of mortals to gain a victory in something as 'evil'. In fact, RW, I can think of plenty of people (corporate & political) who feel the same way, so even mortals can be like that (quite easily, apparently). 'Evil' is really just 'callous'. Both Asmodeus and Set fit that bill. They are VERY similar. Both are also often portrayed with beast-heads (which is neither here-nor-there - just an item of interest).
And if set is Typhon (as Wikipedia implies), then maybe Echidna was the Greek name for Tiamat. She would then be his second wife (or consort, more likely), after Nephthys ditched him (so Nephthys is pre-Dawn War, and Tiamat perhaps post-Dawn War). Post Godswar, he is alone (even Tiamat couldn't stand the way he chewed his food LOL).
Back to Asmodeus - Spinning Set as an aspect of Asmodeus works on so many levels, but then we start getting into this whole fudgery of 'deific tiers'. I have two possible ways of reconciling that (and bear in mind, I am still just playing with all these ideas in my head, nothing more) - that Asmodeus is the child of Set, which fixes just one thing (a God creates a celestial, which DOES make sense). Someone had to have originally created Asmodeus (maybe... I'm still working on the whole 'planer natives' aspect of my overcosmology). I don't like that AT ALL though. I really don't like either of them being in the father/son role - it doesn't fit them.
The other way of dealing with the 'power-level' thing is to say that only the First (Elder) Gods were actual Gods, at first. This would include both original Estelar and Primordials, as well as perhaps a few Primal spirits and probably even the Obyriths (who are technically 'outside' the hierarchy altogether). They would have happened 'spontaneously', which is just a fancy way of saying they were concepts in the minds of Supernals made sentient. Then those beings would have been able to create their own beings - a 'lesser' tier, and it would have required two (or more) of them together to do so (although physical procreation was not yet a thing -this would be more like two {or more} balls of energy merging, and a new entity splitting-off from the merger). So EVERYTHING below this 'Elder God' tier would be a Celestial, although the first may be able to be called Elder (arch?) Celestials. This is where Asmodeus and set fit-in. Over the course of eons, some of these would have recieved adulation from some of their peers and underlings, and later mortals, and rose the the rank of 'god' (although, as I keep saying, all these tiers/ranks/ whatever are mostly just a mortal construct - divine beings {outsiders} all know their 'pecking order' instantly, and that actually changes depending on the circumstances, like where in the universe they are at the time, and whats involved in the 'conflict').
Thus, Asmodeus is Asmodeus, and he is what he always is/was - the supreme arch-Celestial of the multiverse ('fiend' is also amortal construct, although most planer folk have adopted it). 'Set' would be an aspect of his, that he's used in a few pantheons, where he receives worship as a God. In many cultures, it would frowned-upon to worship 'The Devil', so 'Set' is his 'little white lie' so people can pretend they're not worshiping him.
And note I used the term 'multiverse', which only describes the D&Dverse here. Other Multiverse's also exist, and Asmodeus may not be the 'big bad' there, hence the term Omniverse. In the Marvel Universe, Mephisto has supplanted Asmodeus as the 'big bad'. Beings rarely ever try to invade other multiverses. It is possible, but you'd have to have completely taken over EVERYTHING in your own multiverse to even consider such an undertaking. So if you want D&D Asmodeus to have a conversation with Marvel Mephisto, that can happen, but it would have to occur outside of both universes, probably in the Ordial Plane, or what Marvel Comics calls The Plane of Manifestations. Sadly, in the Marvelverse, Asmodeus became a demon, and subordinate of Mephisto. So many possibilities in an Omniverse.
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| TBeholder |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 15:24:56
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Gonna be honest, a lot of this sounds like complexity for the sake of complexity.
Well, yeah. But also, it won't do to jump too far away from it, because that's where any such setting naturally rolls.
In-Universe, you only need enough of players reluctant to cooperate in moderate fog of war: they all have to react on glimpses of each other's moves and have no way to be sure about the purpose of those moves, and the net of feedback loops and strange attractors adds up.
Give it time, and the big picture will be so chaotic that any visible patterns below ultimate objectives, but above events too short to be affected by chaos are most likely to be observer's illusions and delusions (whether accidental or deliberate).
On the out-of Universe side - Ed clearly likes the "Gambit Pileup" based plot building - he even wrote an article (Ed Says: Secret Societies) about it - and this allows somewhat strange outcomes indeed. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 03:59:45
Set's issues with Apep are a regional issue with the Egyptian pantheon. Apep doesn't give a crap about Lathander or Surya or Pholtus or Pelor, he just wants to kill Ra and eat him, erasing his presence in all worlds ruled over by the Egyptian pantheon. Set, for all his evil, has been Ra's defender since the pantheon rose; he probably hates Apep more than he hates Osiris. Also, Set actually does have parents - Geb and Nut. He's Ozzy's brother.
Asmodeus probably predates Set. The Baatorians had already abandoned Baator when Asmodeus fell, leaving it empty. Set probably moved Ankhwugat to Baator when Nephthys divorced him.
Gonna be honest, a lot of this sounds like complexity for the sake of complexity. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 03:21:16
Well, we actually don't 'know' if all the gods (or ANY, for that matter) are really the same beings as before the Spellplague. Azuth may still be Asmodeus' puppet, orrrrrrrr... (possibly more logically), Ao made a deal with Asmodeus to release Azuth. Since some of Asmodeus' back-story shows how even the most Elder of Gods can't touch him (because of all sorts of ancient pacts and what-not), I don't find that hard to believe; Its more like Ao goes to Asmodeus and says, "okay, what do you want?" And they cut a deal. Azuth comes back, and Asmodeus STILL has a presence in the realms.
Now, taking this a little further, and wading out into far deeper waters of 'Homebrew', lets look at something else. 'The Devil' is sometimes refered to as 'the old snake' (and other similar appellations). 'The Snake' has also had dealings with Greyhawk entities in the distant past, although 'it' is never clearly defined. And then we have a 'snake god' just appear out of nowhere in 4e - Zehir. Right at the same time Asmodeus suddenly has a toe-hold in The Realms.
Now, I know it is 'mostly canon'* that Zehir is really Set - its his 'snaky' aspect, so you would think my conjecture has to be wrong... except I also happen to think Set is really Asmodeus as well. He is Asmodeus' aspect in the Egyptian pantheon (and any Planescape lore to the contrary be damned! He is the lord of lies! Misinformation is his bread & butter). Set also has an alliance with Tiamat, and Tiamat served as Asmodeus' 'watchdog' for centuries. It would make perfect sense if Set = Asmodeus, but if you don't like that, we could always say Set is the son of Asmodeus, from way back in the 'Time before time' (Set may be ancient, but he doesn't predate Asmodeus - he may predate Asmodeus' 'fall'). And as we've seen in other cases (Bane & Xvim), a child of a god can act like an extension of that god, like a Chosen.
But I'm not feeling the whole 'son' thing - it feels wrong for Set - a God (and NEVER an ascended mortal) to be the child of a fallen Celestial (even it it is the most powerful celestial in the universe) - it just doesn't work for me. Them being one and the same (different aspects) makes perfect sense to me (Set even fought against the Apep, the embodiment of Chaos, which probably happened during the Dawn War, when Asmodeus was ALSO on the side of Law and fought against Chaos... and then later, both 'fell from grace').
And to go even one step deeper into homebrew, I think Asmodeus himself has been 'tinkered with' over time - that the 'sleeping' Ahriman (the creature that actually IS 'The Hells') has managed to worm its way into Asmodeus' pysche, so now Asmodeus himself may just be an aspect of something even older and more sinister (thats me just trying to rectify the lore from Guide to hell with everything else). Thus, 'The Snake' is really Ahriman, inside Asmodeus' head. It may have even influenced his 'fall' (and when the 'Shadow-Stuff' slammed into his mind, it may have jarred Ahriman loose for a moment, and for one brief second Asmodeus was his original, uncorrupted self again... and then it was gone.
There is an old Michael Moorcock novel called The Warhound and the World's Pain, and that book paints Lucifer as a tragic figure. He was just too damn good at his job. I like that spin, and since the late 3e and 4e lore pretty-much turned Asmodeus into the Judeo-Christian Devil, it works for D&D as well. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 15 Feb 2018 : 02:23:44
I...don't think Asmodeus is a primordial anything. He's overhyped to the point he's become like Shar, who has her fingers in everything because Ao forbid we use Bane or Talos or Loviatar as a deific antagonist.
Yes, he is the Lord Below, undisputed Master of the Ninefold Pit of Baator, but let's look at his career:
-Started off as an exemplar of Law and was presumably corrupted (you can probably pin this on the yugoloths, considering the Heart of Darkness) when doing his job. Ended up being punted into Baator.
-Becomes Lord of Baator...only he's just Lord of the Baatezu. Baator itself keeps pumping out nupperibos, the infant form of the ancient Baatorians. Unlike the tanar'ri and the yugoloths, the baatezu still haven't mastered their 'home plane'.
-Forms the Lords of the Nine to govern the Hells. Then his beloved wife gets murdered while on tour. Sure, Levistus is a popsicle, but that's not going to bring Bensozia back.
-Mystra catches him flat-footed in Malsheem and he fails his Will save.
-He om-noms Azuth's divinity...only Azuth is still alive and comes back in a century or so, robbing Asmodeus of his prize.
I'm not counting 4e's "Hell is like Westeros" lore, because for some reason the designers think that the King of Hell can't have a happy and loving marriage just because he's evil. The "Zargon is an ancient baatorian" thing also falls apart when you actually look at it; they evolved past physical form a long time ago. Zargon, meanwhile, is CR 16 - your average pit fiend would paste him. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Feb 2018 : 17:37:33
Well, there are some assumptions being made here, but they are all based on things hinted at and said. Halaster is nuts. We know he wasn't always nuts. He dabbles in shadow-magic. he didn't always dabble in shadow magic. He tells Mystra, "I am Shar's creature". She reaches into his head, pulls something out, throw that as Asmodeus, and makes Asmodeus insane for about a nanosecond... just long enough for Mystra to grab the loot and run. Afterwards, Halaster seems to be 'all better" (a sleight exaggeration, but he is a LOT more sense post-Mystra-reaches-into-his-head).
So with that line of reasoning, apparently there was some 'shadow-stuff' in his head making him crazy, and Mystra got most of it out. It seemed to have little effect on Asmodeus over-all (although he did later grab control of Azuth and godhood, and that could have been a result of him having gotten a taste of Mystra - who is both the Light & Dark halves of Magical power).
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Azuth didn't even fall because of Asmodeus's machinations, he fell to Nessus through sheer luck. Then the Dark Lord loses even that later.
13 years is a mere eye-blink to someone who's been around since before the current iteration of the universe. I would have found it more troublesome if the Lord of Hell - the ultimate lawful expression of evil - would have had a knee-jerk reaction to anything. Attempts on his realm by others - including gods, other fiends (of all stripes), Celestial beings, etc... is par for the course. All he did was add Mystra on to his 'To Do' list.
Luck? There is no such thing as luck. If that is the way you prefer to view it, than that is your opinion, but it is NOT a factual statement. The lack of evidence is not evidence itself. It makes far more sense to me that Azuth would have had some major contingency magics, and part of what those do is usually transport a person to a 'safe space' somewhere, and Asmodeus being who he is somehow managed to switch the 'arrival point' of that to his own domain. I would think Asmodeus knew of Shar's plans, whether it had anything to do with the 'ball of crazy' he got hit with or not. They involved Cyric - a person who she created through a long-term plan involving the Dark Three. All of it was layed-out in the Dark Chronology. And I truly doubt someone like Asmodeus wouldn't be keeping a close-watch on someone like Cyric.
And we really don't now where the Dark Chronology even came from... a gift from The Devil, perhaps? 
Of course all of that is my opinion, not fact. Where you see plotholes, I see amazing story potential. Notice Shar didn't really 'win'? Why would that be, even though her ultimate plan came to fruition? Did someone steal the 'big prize' right out from under her? Shar is a newb at evil compared to Asmodeus - he is a primordial being. And he's the only one that made substantial gains because of the spellplague. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 14 Feb 2018 : 06:39:49
I think the assault on the Hells was fine. Remember it failed. Completely. She showed up and all the baatezu that attacked her died as a result but she had to retreat.
I don't know when this became putting "shar-stuff" into Asmodeus, but that sounds just stupid enough to be 3.5-4th edition - almost as bad as Halaster being dead and there being 0 consequences - in direct contradiction to everything ever stated about his relationship to Undermountain.
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| LordofBones |
Posted - 14 Feb 2018 : 03:02:04
There's being patient, and there's letting Baator get a black eye in front of all the Lower Planes. The Lord Below has to retaliate, to do otherwise would be show that Baator is weak. It derides the authority of the Nine, and even if he doesn't personally give a damn about the Blood War, the rank and file are going to be seriously demoralized by a godly assault on Baator's primary Blood War staging ground. Even then, all of that could have been forgiven (for a given value of the term) had Mystra not personally assaulted Avernus and disavowed the Simbul's actions. Instead, Mystra directly flouts her disregard for Law (the Law of Baator, no less) by assaulting the Lord Below in his own throne room when he's about to dispense punishment against the nut who invaded Baator for no reason. I mean, it's only going to take one Duke wondering why nothing has been done about the assault on Avernus for Asmodeus to go "What assault? Why don't I remember this?"
Azuth didn't even fall because of Asmodeus's machinations, he fell to Nessus through sheer luck. Then the Dark Lord loses even that later. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Feb 2018 : 02:15:39
How is it a plothole?
Asmodeus is the most patient individual in the universe (which is what separates the devils from the demons). Not too many years later, he turns her primary receptacle of power into his personal lapdog, and gains godhood in the Realms by doing so.
I think he got even. Revenge for revenge's sake is more of a 'demon thing'. Devils are more likely to walk away and count their losses, and give 'payback' when its more opportune to do so, AND when there is some form of gain involved. They are the consummate businessmen. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 14 Feb 2018 : 01:39:30
The entirety of Mystra's assult on Baator is a huuuuge plothole. A direct deific assault on the Nine Hells - Avernus in particular - is something the baatezu would never have been able to tolerate. Avernus is where the defense of Baator is and it's where the primary generals of the Blood War gather. A deity waltzing in and murdering baatezu by the millions would have broadcasted to all and sundry that the Lords of the Nine are weak and unable to defend their home plane.
To top it off, Mystra and Halaster assaulted the Lord Below in his own throne room, for the crime of wanting to punish the kids crapping on his lawn and killing his employees by the thousands. The Dukes of Hell and the Lords of the Nine were unaffected and are probably wondering why no reprisal has been made against Mystra yet.
You could spin an entire adventure plotline about this, as Mystra's church now comes under brutal assault by the cults of the Nine. All over Faerun, baatezu refuse to answer callings and summonings - those baatezu on loan to the various gods of evil and law are immediately recalled to Baator. Angry evil deities, even those that have no particular resentment against Mystra, begin or otherwise intensify assaults against the churches of Mystra and Azuth, and the PCs are caught in the middle either as mercenaries hired by the Mystarran church or by her rivals. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Feb 2018 : 01:32:56
She provided him with one of the most powerful basic laws of magic - the Law of Cantagion (in magic, in science Einstein called this phenomena 'Spooky Physics', or Quantum Entanglement.. and BROTHER, if that ain't magic, I don't know what is). Basically it amounts to this - "Objects or beings in physical or psychic contact with each other continue to interact after separation." (Bonewits' Laws of Authentic Theumaturgy)
Mystra took a ball of 'Shar-stuff' out of Halaster's head and threw it into Asmodeus. Extremely risky, because it established 'contagion' - he now had a permanent connection to her power (and Mystra is made-up of both the 'Light & Dark' sides of magic - Selūne & Shar). This goes right back to why you don't eat anything while in Hell (and the Greeks are just one of MANY cultures with that particular bit of folklore). Time is a very real dimension - even if you separate two things later on, there is always one dimension they will ALWAYS be connected in. That can become a conduit, if someone knows how.
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| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 14 Feb 2018 : 01:19:25
So, we're agreed. Mystra danced with the devil in the pale moonlight. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Feb 2018 : 01:17:49
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Shortly after dawn on Eleint 30, 1375 DR, an earthquake struck Waterdeep. Though the city suffered little damage, many people throughout the town saw visions of Halaster screaming, his eyes ablaze with rage, sorrow, and swimming stars. Arcanists who saw the visions also reported scenes of destruction in the vast maze of Undermountain: pillars cracking and crumbling, chasms and rifts opening, and explosions of sparks. Those brave enough to investigate quickly discovered that Halaster had inadvertently killed himself while attempting a powerful ritual; as he died, he hurled desperate visions and compulsions to people all across the continent.[/i]
This tells me that it is probably that Halaster did indeed have an inkling of Shar's plans inside his head (if for no other reason than his deep familiarity with the Shadoweave), and once Mystra go most of the 'Crazy' out of his head, he worked extremely hard toward stopping it all from going down. We'll never know if he totally failed. In fact, we can't even be sure he failed at all, since we don't know precisely what he was trying to do.
EXAMPLE: In his own crazy way, Halaster knew there would be a big power-grab going on. They (whoever was in on it, which may have included other beings we haven't found out about yet, like Asmodeus and Set {Zehir}) may have either work with Mystra, or he may have "pulled a Karsus" and tried working around her (which may have weakened her in the process, which is part of the reason she died so easily). Whatever it is, he may have absorbed a TON of her power and/or The Weave itself, and when he 'shattered' into a million pieces, he dispersed the energy in such a way that it would take a century or more to coalesce into a whole again. Thus, that was no failure - like kKarsus before him, he became a 'momentary god', and then obliterated himself, just so that the power wasn't all in one place for others to grab.
So what he did was the magical equivalent of stealing a big sack of flour, and shaking it all out on a windy day. Now no-one else can grab the sack of flour. And he used-up his own life to do it.
So 'failure' becomes a relative term. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Feb 2018 : 01:07:13
Mystra tries to 'help' Halster fight for Elminster, and he sadly looks at her and say, "I can't... I am Shar's creature now..."
At which point she reaches into his head, grabs 'the crazy' right out of him (the shadow-stuff thats corrupting him?), and hurls it INTO Asmodeus.
And Asmodeus has a momentary 'senior moment', and Mystra grabs El and runs. She literally 'infected' Asmodeus with Halaster's insanity, which was enough to give one of the most ancient and powerful beings in the multiverse... pause. That tells you how strong Halaster's mind must be just for him to keep it the little bit 'together' he has been all these years.
Two things we get out of that - whatever was corrupting/tainting Halaster's mind might not be there anymore (if and when he gets put back together), or it might be greatly diminished, and its also something Mystra recognizes and is familiar with (she used it as a damn weapon!), so yeah, more clues that somehow 'shadow' is some sort of infection in FR/D&D, or rather, a person's shadow can become infected with 'umbral energies' (even a god). To someone like Asmodeus, it was probably just a momentary 'bad taste in his mouth' (its not like more evil is going to do anything permanent to him)
The second thing we get is that Mystra 'got over' on Asmodeus, within his own Realm. Once he realized that, don't you think he would want to teach her a lesson? And now that he's had a 'taste' of her (one half of her, anyway), maybe that gave him just what he needed to set his own plans in motion to grab Azuth when the time was right, eh? Or maybe... Halaster had just enough 'Shar-iness' inside his head that Asmodeus got an inkling of the plan to kill Mystra (which was decades in the making), so he made sure he 'got his cut' when it all went down. Nobody cheats the Devil, not even Shar & Mystra. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Feb 2018 : 00:02:58
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I agree. There was a very solid reason for that number.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
They absorb magic missiles and all electrical spells and natural effects to re-power themselves, without allowing these effects to harm the wearer.
Just noting here, another instance where its noted that one of the big things Halaster does is use one power source to fund another. His energy transformation spells are all about funding other spell effects.
You know, thinking on this... I know the rules don't allow for it, and I know the point is moot in 5e... but if ANYONE on Toril fit the bill of "they've discovered the means to source magic from both the weave and the shadow weave"... I think Halaster would fit that bill. Even his madness could be seen as him not worshipping Shar and having to take on the effects of the shadow weave. In fact, one of the things he may do to protect himself is that when he's in Undermountain, maybe he's usually in a dead magic area to the weave.
Interesting line of reasoning.
Especially when we consider that Selūne & Shar were really just one goddess that went nuts (and then we have an echo of that, when Tyche split into Beshaba & Tymora - I have to wonder if the 'Dawn Cataclysm' had anything to do with the 'Dawn War').
The only thing I don't like about this concept is that it reeks of SW - Light Side/Dark Side, and how it makes you 'lose your mind' a bit when you try to juggle both (as Anakin did). Do you think Halaster killed younglings?
Hell The better question is, do you think he DIDN'T?
Yes, it does reek of such. That being said, doesn't Elminster in Hell have something about Halaster and Shar? I could very much be wrong. I went to the Wiki though and I at least see this. I fully admit my memory of that book is hazy at best. Apparently in it though Mystra tries to "cure Halaster of his insanity". Perhaps this is when she gives him the ability to access the weave again?
Along these lines, I half wonder if his death weren't some kind of attempt to change the source of many of his many effects in Undermountain to pulling from the weave instead of the shadow weave, and something went wrong. I wouldn't want to nail that into the coffin yet though.
From the Wiki on Halaster
In 1372 DR when Elminster was inadvertently sent to hell while defending the Dalelands from the Shadovar. Mystra made a bargain with Halaster, that she would try to cure his insanity if he rescued Elminster from hell. Halaster agreed, and entered Avernus. Though he was unsuccessful, and had to be rescued in turn by Alassra Silverhand, Mystra kept her word, and managed to partially cure him. (She then proceeded to blast Asmodeus with Halaster's insanity.)
<also this>
Shortly after dawn on Eleint 30, 1375 DR, an earthquake struck Waterdeep. Though the city suffered little damage, many people throughout the town saw visions of Halaster screaming, his eyes ablaze with rage, sorrow, and swimming stars. Arcanists who saw the visions also reported scenes of destruction in the vast maze of Undermountain: pillars cracking and crumbling, chasms and rifts opening, and explosions of sparks. Those brave enough to investigate quickly discovered that Halaster had inadvertently killed himself while attempting a powerful ritual; as he died, he hurled desperate visions and compulsions to people all across the continent.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Feb 2018 : 18:43:06
I agree. There was a very solid reason for that number.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
They absorb magic missiles and all electrical spells and natural effects to re-power themselves, without allowing these effects to harm the wearer.
Just noting here, another instance where its noted that one of the big things Halaster does is use one power source to fund another. His energy transformation spells are all about funding other spell effects.
You know, thinking on this... I know the rules don't allow for it, and I know the point is moot in 5e... but if ANYONE on Toril fit the bill of "they've discovered the means to source magic from both the weave and the shadow weave"... I think Halaster would fit that bill. Even his madness could be seen as him not worshipping Shar and having to take on the effects of the shadow weave. In fact, one of the things he may do to protect himself is that when he's in Undermountain, maybe he's usually in a dead magic area to the weave.
Interesting line of reasoning.
Especially when we consider that Selūne & Shar were really just one goddess that went nuts (and then we have an echo of that, when Tyche split into Beshaba & Tymora - I have to wonder if the 'Dawn Cataclysm' had anything to do with the 'Dawn War').
The only thing I don't like about this concept is that it reeks of SW - Light Side/Dark Side, and how it makes you 'lose your mind' a bit when you try to juggle both (as Anakin did). Do you think Halaster killed younglings? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Feb 2018 : 15:43:26
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The limited number (only eight) even suggests limited availability of some exotic component.
I would disagree -- he gave these to his apprentices. The number of rings made was limited to those who needed them. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Feb 2018 : 14:26:42
They absorb magic missiles and all electrical spells and natural effects to re-power themselves, without allowing these effects to harm the wearer.
Just noting here, another instance where its noted that one of the big things Halaster does is use one power source to fund another. His energy transformation spells are all about funding other spell effects.
You know, thinking on this... I know the rules don't allow for it, and I know the point is moot in 5e... but if ANYONE on Toril fit the bill of "they've discovered the means to source magic from both the weave and the shadow weave"... I think Halaster would fit that bill. Even his madness could be seen as him not worshipping Shar and having to take on the effects of the shadow weave. In fact, one of the things he may do to protect himself is that when he's in Undermountain, maybe he's usually in a dead magic area to the weave. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 13 Feb 2018 : 09:55:02
There can be any number of the cursed/flawed Halaster's Teleport Rings. They could save your life, even though most D&D players actually fear losing all their items far more than they fear death.
But there's only eight of the potent Horned Rings. Clearly only intended to be used (and only crafted) by Halaster and his apprentices.
This "Horned" version must actually be very difficult to create, any magical item with so many magical properties would be, so the "cursed" versions might simply be all those artificing attempts which weren't successful.
The limited number (only eight) even suggests limited availability of some exotic component. Something fiendish, no doubt. Perhaps the actual essence of a powerful horned fiend being forever dispersed, merged into, and bound within the confines of Undermountain itself.
And while they technically aren't artifacts, their power and rarity does invite some of the consequences attached to artifacts. Namely, they are eagerly sought and much coveted by others, items of legendary power - more valuable than all the other treasures of Undermountain combined! - so sooner or later somebody will somehow find a way to locate and claim them. Somebody capable. Perhaps archmagi, dragons, fiends, or worse. |
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