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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 14:32:47
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Question just occurred to me:
What is the significance of the horns from Horned Rings (the special teleportation rings from Undermountain)?
I have to assume the horns are more than just decoration but can't think of any reason for them.
Ideas?
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 15:03:03
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homebrew
They're "horned" because they're powered by entrapped fiends. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 15:11:00
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| I've always assumed it was some simply aesthetic thing, done purely to be distinctive. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 21:40:51
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To run with what Dazzler said above - I would have it be specifically the horns of certain fiends were used in their creation.
Then you can 'broaden the lore' by saying fiendish teleportation is actually connected to a fiend's horns (they'd almost be like sort of 'antennae' for fiends, that allow them to tap-into the Road of Starlight & Shadows). This would be one of the best kept secrets of the Loweer Planes - fiends of different alignemtns would even work together to destroy anyone who found this out.
Because "cutting off a fiend's Horns" would be a great way to trap them in one place. Archfiends may even do this to subordinates to keep them in line. 
And if anyone would be able to discover this ancient secret, it would Halaster, the archmage of fallen Imaskar. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Feb 2018 21:59:06 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 21:57:32
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| But with non-fiendish teleportation possible, why go thru all the effort of involving fiends in making teleporting rings? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 21:59:46
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| Because Fiends are cool? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 23:03:44
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| If we're gonna connect the horned rings to "fiends" I'd recommend "horned devils" or Malebranche |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 23:21:57
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| I don't think it is a bad idea at all to say that the horns came from fiends...but only because it was a component and not that the only way fiends can teleport is because of their horns. There are several that can teleport and they don't have horns. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 03:05:37
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Halaster is insane. It's probably just an aesthetic choice.
And if a fiend's teleportation abilities are tied to its horns, explain mariliths, hezrous, nalfeshnees, succubi, arcanaloths, ultroloths, vrocks, barbazu, osyluths, hamatulas, gelugons and erinyes. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 03:23:17
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Their horns are really tiny.
And since when don't succubi have horns?
So what purpose DO horns on a fiend serve? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 04:39:54
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
And if a fiend's teleportation abilities are tied to its horns, explain mariliths, hezrous, nalfeshnees, succubi, arcanaloths, ultroloths, vrocks, barbazu, osyluths, hamatulas, gelugons and erinyes.
I wanted to ask the same question, but wasn't ambitious enough to crack all the books to compile a list like that.  |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 04:44:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Their horns are really tiny.
And since when don't succubi have horns?
So what purpose DO horns on a fiend serve?
Same as any other animal: weapons. Either for attack or defense.
Game Mechanics wise it would have something to do with their Armor Class and so on. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 05:24:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Their horns are really tiny.
And since when don't succubi have horns?
So what purpose DO horns on a fiend serve?
3.5e succubi don't have horns, at least not in their MM artwork. Malcanthet and Shami-Amourae are horned, but Lynkhab is hornless.
Demogorgon, Fraz Urb'Luu, Abraxas, Dagon, Obox-Ob, Juiblex, Pazuzu, Pale Night, Yeenoghu, Doresain, Armaros, Nergal, Baalzebul, Focalor, Cozbinaer, Bensozia, Bune, Lolth, Mydianchlarus, Xenghara, Bubonix and Charon are all unique fiends towering over the rest of their kind, and all are hornless. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 08:03:41
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Wow... so some fiends have invisible horns? Who knew!
Those sneaky gits!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 13:11:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But with non-fiendish teleportation possible, why go thru all the effort of involving fiends in making teleporting rings?
Cheaper in time and resources to make the rings. I see Halaster/Hilather and the Imaskari as having maybe used a lot of "shortcuts" when it came to magic item creation by instilling an actual magic creature into things and powering them via the creature's own innate magic. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 13:15:31
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Ooh, thats something to think about. I like to think nothing is done without reason when it comes to magic - especially powerful magic.
The fiend link is good. In past editions there was a plothook about how devils could teleport.
Perhaps the ring requires reagents gathered from a devils corpse (maybe not required but perhaps make it cheaper and easier to craft).
Halaster has a history of dealing with (dealing as in stopping) fiends. He made a number of magic items that trapped fiends. So he is more than familiar with them.
I wouldn't go with corpse pieces. Those are relatively easy to come across. I literally mean a "living" creature in the rings. Something that's been tortured magically into this form (somewhat like a genie trapped in a lamp). Getting a trapped fiend alive would be hard. Keeping a trapped fiend alive long enough to instill their living essence into a magic item (which might take months)... that's decently hard.... especially if they know who you are and know that you have been known to entrap fiends into magic items (and I'd bet many beings of the lower planes know of Halaster's predatory experiments).
In fact, at one point, along these same lines. There is a spell called spell engine from earlier sources. It basically drew off any magic spell cast by a being. This magical energy could then be used to power other effects. One of the things I did back in 2nd edition was write up this big, round ball in the astral. The outer portion was just thick stone, but the layers moving inward were various thin layers of metals which basically prevented anything in it from escaping without a transport key. I then stuck a couple groups of fiends with spell engines in the area. The spell engines powers certain spells which made the area transport proof (again, unless you had the key, and even then only to a couple key areas), but they also powered spells to search out "spellshadows" of the circle spell (from 2nd edition Guide to the Astral Plane... any spell cast created a "spellshadow" on the astral and people could research these and learn your spells... but in detecting or studying it, the spellshadow was disturbed and destroyed). The continual casting of this was powered by the fact that the demons entrapped were forced to continually cast spells in the astral until they developed magic addiction (because in 2nd edition, that was a thing in the astral... if you cast a spell there, there was a chance you'd become addicted to the rush of magic and wouldn't stop casting spells). So, the spell engines were churning away with hundreds of demons all continually casting basic low level spells for the "rush" of it, all to cast a lesser variation I called something like "disturb spellshadow of circle spell". Later, when they made the circle "spell" a class ability only to certain classes who take the necessary prerequisites and enter the class, I felt that was so much better than the circle "spell" which theoretically anyone could learn. That in my viewpoint was a fix to a lot of broken 2nd edition stuff (turning some things into feats, etc...). I will admit though that some things as feats make better as both a feat and a spell (for instance, I'm not favored of the silent spell or still spell feats. I prefer the vocalize spell spell. I AM favored though of the "sudden silent spell" and "sudden still spell" feats. The idea that you might not have vocalize ready, or the ability to cast it, and maybe you need to cast a spell.... and since you wasted two feats, you can get yourself out of a jam that other wizards can't... which btw is something psions can do easily. Actually, now that I think on it, there should be just one feat, and call it "sudden spell component removal" and allow it to remove up to one component per "use/charge" used on a spell. So, maybe you get 3 + spellcasting ability modifier uses per day, and when you're bound, gagged and stripped naked you have to use 3 uses to cast a spell to free yourself). I may have to write that up for 5e, where you get a lot fewer feats. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 11 Feb 2018 13:41:09 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 14:24:52
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| Oh, and in the above... may not have been spell engine, maybe energy transformation from Ruins of Undermountain I. I did stuff with both. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 15:32:10
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But with non-fiendish teleportation possible, why go thru all the effort of involving fiends in making teleporting rings?
Cheaper in time and resources to make the rings. I see Halaster/Hilather and the Imaskari as having maybe used a lot of "shortcuts" when it came to magic item creation by instilling an actual magic creature into things and powering them via the creature's own innate magic.
So it's cheaper in time and resources to summon a fiend, bind it to a ring, do something about the fact it's going to resist all this *and* that it has innate resistance to overcome, as opposed to just casting a single spell? |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 16:28:25
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Ahh the joys of the 3e economy.
Because adventurers have on average about 3000000gp disposable income by the time they are level 10 it takes all the fun and meaning out of the game.
This magic item costs 50000gp to make for example, no problem ill just chuck some money at it and hey presto. Never mind that 50000gp in medieval times should buy you a rather large castle or pay for a house full of diamonds.
Making a magic item should be hellishly expensive. The cost in gold should be representative of all the weird reagents needed to make it. No one should have 50000 gp lying around unless they have just sold an entire country to get it.
So Halaster would probably cry at the thoughy of paying for all the weird stuff he needs to make these items. He has his portals randomly abduct people from all over faerun who happen to possess an eye of newt that has passed through the digestive system of a fire salamander (the elemental kind), and as a focus the horn of a fiend capable of teleportation (when you kill a summoned fiend their body disappears and they reform on baator so its not easy) and any other hundred or so reagents that Halaster has decided upon.
As he enchants the items these reagents are consumed or moulded into the creation.
Its how magic should be. The rarer and more magical the creature the better value the reagents you get from them. Similar deal for plants - a blade of witch weed bathed in moonlight and doused in dragonfire.
This is how orcs make magic items. They dont have hundreds of gp lying around to make potions and enchant weapons. They use the blood of elven foetus', the petrified hands of dwarven miners. They essentially craft the item for free but first they have to gather all the reagents from their enemies.
When you dont have the reagents then you have to pay by hiring agents (adventurers to track it down) or commission a merchant to get his contacts to find them for you. Its expensive - really expensive.
But D&D just gets rid of all that fun and lets people find kings ransoms worth of gold and click their fingers to get what they want. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 16:46:15
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Can someone please point me to where this lore is located? Once again, FRwiki disappoints.
I only ran with the 'fiends' thing because someone else mentioned it first. I like the idea of connecting them, but I think there are somewhat better uses for bound fiends then have them in a ring for teleportation...
UNLESS that particular kind of ring can bypass something that a normal teleport can't. Which is why I need to read the precise lore. IF its what I think it is (because I'm pretty sure I must have read it at least once), that these allow you to teleport despite Halaster's wards/the Mythal, then that pretty much dashes Wooly's reasoning. Its fairly simple to say that these particular teleport rings - made with 'fiendish connections' - do something a normal teleport item can't, and that would be all the reason you need to create them lieu of something 'cheaper'.
Now, if I weren't going for the fiend thing (which, as I've said, was someone else's proposal), I would go the most obvious route... Minotaurs.
Because what else is Undermountain than the world's largest LABYRINTH?
IIRC, in at least one edition, it mentions that a Minotaur can UNERRINGLY find its way through labyrinths. In other words, get somewhere without error within the confines of a confusing, enclosed space. Its part of 'the magic' of the creature. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Feb 2018 16:49:26 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 17:07:49
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A 10th level adventurer in Pathfinder has a WBL of 62,000 gp, and in core D&D 3.5e, adventurers have a lower WBL than Pathfinder (700k gp vs 880k gp at 20th level).
People love to ignore that the game is played based on the assumption that you have WBWL. Everything in the game hinges on the PCs having the gear appropriate to their level, not to whatever random esoteric ingredient the DM wants for you craft that cloak of resistance +1.
The Realms is infamous for its proliferation of high-level casters. There are at least three magocracies in the Realms, not counting mundane kingdoms ruled by a spellcaster. 90% of ascended deities in the Realms started their careers as spellcasters. The major metropolises have schools to teach magic. Evil Wizards Inc runs a chain of magic marts. Magic isn't some hidden, mysterious, Conan-esque voodoo ooga-booga mumbo-jumbo requiring sacrifices to blasphemous deities; it's a valid, accepted venue of study with known rules (or guidelines, at least). Some enterprising wizard probably decided that he'd rather have a ring of teleportation than a helm, and then realized that he could also modify the usual ring of deflection formula, and maybe something to deal with those pesky arcane locks on spellbooks he pilfers from other wizards...
Greater teleport itself doesn't have a material component. I don't really know why the fiends are being singled out, since archons can also greater teleport at will. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 18:57:38
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So Halaster would probably cry at the thoughy of paying for all the weird stuff he needs to make these items.
Huh? The man is damn near immortal, has cleared out entire communities -- one of which was a drow community! -- in his efforts to build a new playground for himself, has cast probably tens of thousands of spells to make his playground work the way he wants, has mastered translocational magics, has liberally sprinkled magic and money all over his playground, trained a bunch of apprentices who are major threats on their own (one of them became Magister!) and spends his days just happily popping about the place, watching the fun, and resetting stuff that adventurers had done.
This guy has no concern whatsoever for money. The spell components for just the warding magics permeating Undermountain would likely bankrupt some nations of the Realms multiple times over -- assuming he actually needed to buy them, and didn't have some workaround or alternate source. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 21:40:23
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I am going to have to go with Wooly on this one. Halster giving an osquip's arse about ANYTHING doesn't seem possible to me. Kingdom of a million people in the way of his new rose garden? *snaps fingers* GONE! He could sidestep into the Plane of Elemental Earth and carry-out the hugest chuck of gold he can carry (with his magic, which is probably A LOT). At the tier, 'money' just isn't a thing anymore.
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Greater teleport itself doesn't have a material component. I don't really know why the fiends are being singled out, since archons can also greater teleport at will.
Because we were talking about horns, and although I can argue on the fact whether all fiends have horns or not (the art is different in each edition), I am pretty sure archons don't.
Whats WBL? 
Once again, without knowing where the original lore (Horned Rings) came from, I am finding it hard to even contribute anything further - I don't know the details, and the Devil is in the details. (see what I did there?)
Are these merely ring-versions of the Helm? If so, then I would say its just a name Halaster chose. But if they do anything extra, then the name might be pertinent to understanding their nature.
Also, I don't see the harm in coming-up with esoteric ingredients for stuff. Thats why its a roleplaying game - 'getting there' is half the fun. Plus, who makes stuff anyway? I'v never used crafting rules at my table, and I've never seen anyone else use them. Just find the stuff. Let other people worry about finding the piece of the Terrasque to build the thingummy.
Also, certain ingredients may have been easier to get in the past. It could be you can't even get that ingredient anymore, hence, 'magic items that can no longer be made'. Giant (Dire) Owlbears used to be fairly common in primal woodlands just a thousand years ago in The Realms, and now they are (assumed to be) extinct. If someone was using them for spell-components, they'd be out of luck now. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Feb 2018 21:45:18 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2018 : 23:47:57
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I think WBL is Wealth Base Level -- what someone of a particular level should have.
Horned rings -- of which, there are few, originally given by Halaster to his apprentices -- are from the first Ruins of Undermountain boxed set.
I suspect they may also be in that 3.x book that I couldn't get thru when I saw an NPC violating the magic restrictions of Undermountain within a few pages of those restrictions being spelled out.  |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Feb 2018 23:48:47 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2018 : 02:50:33
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| I don't have City of Splendors with me, but a quick glance at google tells me that the horned rings were only mentioned in Halaster's statblock, in his possessions entry. They were never given an expanded description. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2018 : 03:43:29
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Perhaps the representation of horns=fiends=teleport is less literal, more symbolic.
Magic is often about metaphors, magical "properties" within are visible on the surface, "signatures" of things are linked to the things themselves.
There's no requirement for Halaster to summon/bind every possible kind of fiend, no matter how big the zoo might be. Maybe he preferred only one or a few kinds which had horns.
And he had a personal preferences, quirks, style. What archmage doesn't?
And he was insane. His reasons for doing things don't have to be understandable to anyone who isn't as insane (in all the same ways) as he was. Manipulating twisted fiendish magics involves a certain "logic" or "mindset" of its own.
And he was brilliant. The "horned ring" design might be clever or elegant in subtle ways which would require a lifetime (or many lifetimes) of study to properly understand. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
523 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2018 : 06:17:10
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I don't have City of Splendors with me, but a quick glance at google tells me that the horned rings were only mentioned in Halaster's statblock, in his possessions entry. They were never given an expanded description.
Maybe I can be of help. Horned Ring does in fact have an entry in 3.5 Waterdeep on page 151 under Minor Artifacts.
It seems one of the changes differences between the original Ruins of Undermountain entry and 3.5 is that originally it functioned as a Teleport Ring within UM, it later was changed such that it does not itself teleport but allows one to teleport in UM while wearing it. Both version list only 8 known to exist.
I like the idea that the horns on the ring could have some significance, devil or otherwise. Halaster having cracked secrets most in the Realms haven't even dreamed of investigating seems like fun. Note in 3.5 by making these items minor artifacts it puts them beyond GP value. As such could make for even more interesting question of does/did Halaster have the knowledge of artifact craft? |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2018 : 07:27:08
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Okay, that's perfect. Thanks for the info.
So forget the earlier version for now. If the rings simply allowed teleportation, drop the fiends altogether and go with what I said about minotaurs; their lore indicates they have a special magic unto themselves where they can 'navigate any labyrinth'. Somehow, Halaster managed to distill the essence of this, and uses horn-powder (crushed minotaur horn) in the process of making the rings.
And be it minotaurs, fiends, unicorns, saytrs, terrasque, etc... doesn't really matter. You only need a small amount (it is a ring, after all), so why people were talking about him 'summoning a whole bunch' (or capturing a whole bunch in the case of monsters) is completely unnecessary. Nothing says that one horn (or a pair) wouldn't be enough for just eight rings. So of you guys were acting like he needed a factory, and had to raid all of hell to get what he needed (although its not like he hasn't been there... INSIDE Asmodeus' head). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Feb 2018 07:28:10 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1536 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2018 : 08:54:28
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| He's a 30th level wizard. Summoning a bunch of extraplanar beings to massacre them for crafting ingredients is what they do on Tuesday mornings while having their pit fiend butlers prepare toast, eggs and bacon, with some tea and honey. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2018 : 12:55:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But with non-fiendish teleportation possible, why go thru all the effort of involving fiends in making teleporting rings?
Cheaper in time and resources to make the rings. I see Halaster/Hilather and the Imaskari as having maybe used a lot of "shortcuts" when it came to magic item creation by instilling an actual magic creature into things and powering them via the creature's own innate magic.
So it's cheaper in time and resources to summon a fiend, bind it to a ring, do something about the fact it's going to resist all this *and* that it has innate resistance to overcome, as opposed to just casting a single spell?
Yes. Its "cheaper" because it doesn't necessarily need to draw on the weave as much. Its "powered" by the creature. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Halaster & Horns
