| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 00:26:13
Can anyone point me to a Canon reference of Orcs worshiping Gruumsh in the Forgotten Realms before the Orcgate Wars?
In the Grand History of the Realms the first reference I've found of ol' One-Eye is during the Orcgate Wars. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 02:32:16
You'll note in RW folklore, fey/fairies/elves are much more 'feral' than they appear in modern fantasy - they have a more bestial lok to them. Most are hairy, and have animal body-parts.
Sounds like Goblyns to me (term stolen from RL, and one that I am now using to mean ALL 'unseelie' fey, from all three tiers (medium, small, and tiny).
Thus, 'goblin' just becomes a sub-group of Goblyn (it makes it all easier to keep separate by spelling it that way, and I don't really like using 'goblinoids', since Orcs have been separate from them for a LONG time.)
But yeah, I think we are definitely onto something here - elves are cheap knock-offs, not the Orcs!  |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 16:03:12
First came the Orcs.
Then spirits came that stole Orc bodies and perverted them into Fey bodies (and other things).
Corellon is an Orc. Those that follow him are Orcs too...they just betrayed their Orcness and were cursed by Gruumsh. That is why Orcs can't breed with Fey/Elves; but Orcs can breed with nearly anything else...they still have the primitive "Faerie" genetic makeup that allows this.
Really Elves are just weak/debased Orcs. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 06:20:37
Well, as I said, we'll probably know for sure when MToF comes out.
Back when we all worked on the Elven Netbook, the assumption was the 'Fey' (Creator race) was 'different' than the elves. I was even suggesting the Fey gave birth to the Elves - their 'lesser children' when the world got broken somehow (and we didn't even know about the 4e Lattice of Heaven back then). The assumption was simply that there were Fey, and at some point, there were elves. We never thought the fey WERE Elves. We had Fey walking around all over FR and we didn't even know - the Gold & Silver Elves were Eladrin, and Eldarin = Fey (the tall, majestic ones, at any rate).
Gold & Silver were never 'elves' - we just thought they were. Hell, THEY thought they were. Because of their time away from the Feywild, they lost their 'feyness', so they were barely even Eladrin (but yet still Eladrin - Queen Amuiral had a daughter that was quite obviously Fey, and also, we have cases of elves simply extending their lifespans far beyond the norm, for no other reason than they wanted to... that was all it took; the desire. They tapped into their inner, Eladrin, 'Fey'. But regular 'elves' (Sylvan/Green) can't do that. They are what they are - they are a product of the mortal world (Prime Material).
And the concept of 'subraces' no longer exists. There are just three races here - Fey (Eladrin), Elf, and Drow. As it should be - as it was always meant to be, since the beginning of D&D. Everything else is just an 'ethnicity'.
But Rhiannon created the small fey - I hope they don't change that. In 4e/5e context, she could have just been a primal spirit that existed in the Feywild, and then Corellon came along and stole some of her mojo and created the Eldarin. Perhaps Rhiannon and Corellon made the Fey (Eladrin) together... that would be nice.
Hmmmm... If I spin Rhiannon as the original (primal power) name for Angharradh, and then say that instead of her being a tripartite deity, she is actually a multi-aspected deity, and thus, Sehanine (Selūne) and Hanali (Sune) are just aspects of the ancient Rhiannon. When Araushnee came along (who I think is the daughter of Pale Night and something else), she combines with the other two and that's when Rhiannon became Angharradh (which probably means "Corellon's harem" in some ancient tongue). 
Then Araushnee gets booted, and he replaces her with a goddess of flying things (another primal spirit, probably), named Aerdrie Faenya. She may have even been part of the Aearee pantheon first. Although Aerdrie is probably just a good-alinged aspect, and there may be others of the same proto-power (Fileet, Tyaa). Hell, she may have even been a captain of the Valkira.
Anyhow, everything else aside - Rhiannon as Angharradh really fixes a lot of things, lore-wise. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 05:53:34
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Actually, it most likely does, since the 4e lore tromped all over previous lore. We have it in 4e lore Corellon created the 'Fey Elves', who were the Eladrin. Nowhere does it say he created the 'regular garden variety elves' anymore, and the stuff about his blood & tears are just hyperbole.
We have a defiinite creation of Eladrin, and then sometime later (after all sorts of deific conflicts and world-breakage), we have 'the Fey' (who we now know in hindsight were the Eladrin) sent 'the elves' (Sylvan/Green elves) to Faerūn (and perhaps other worlds as well, but thats conjecture).
Now, the newer lore not only names two major conflicts the Selarine were preoccupied with at the time when the elves must have been created, but the lore also implies that both Lolth and Gruumsh felt Corellon was not paying enough attention to 'his' children (more-so Lolth than Gruumsh - Gruumsh just took his followers and left). So, when you take all that into consideration, the 'elves' (NOT Eladrin) were created at a time when Corellon would have been least-likely to have been involved.
-Factoring in the "breaking up" different Elven subraces into different D&D races and having the generic Elven creation myth apply only to those more magically-inclined, and not the more nature-oriented Elves still does not strengthen that hypothesis.
-In order to work with (A) the semi-canon (since we will never be able to say for certain that creation myths of various races are true or not) that says that this Fey deity created this creature and that Fey deity created that creature AND (B) that the Fey Creator Race earned their moniker by introducing all these Fey creatures to Toril, the only thing that rectifies all of that is my hypothesis, that they became included in the Creator Races by opening the portals that led these creatures to Toril. Not that they created them, but that they introduced them. Both A and B are fulfilled. Other explanations that stay true to A or B exist, but nothing fulfills both without mucking around with the facts as we know them right now (the canon definition of creatures as they currently stand, mostly). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 01:29:34
So I was thinking about Gruumsh today (he is a sexy beast, after all) , and it occurred to me that he may not have been an orc himself (or an orc god) - we could possibly spin it as a 'stepbrother' kind of thing between him and Corellon.
Here are my thoughts - when the Fey Elves began to expand into the Giant-lands in the Wilderlands (future feywild), many of the giants simply fell back (it was a huge plane, after all), or retreated to other worlds (the Feywild is full of gates to such worlds). Plus, many of the True Giants (Jotunbrūd) may have been under some kind of mandate from Annam to do so (settle the newly forming prime Worlds before anyone else does). In fact, I am even thinking that perhaps it was supposed to be temporary - their stay in the Feywild. Whatever..
But the two most powerful groups of Jotkyn (Giantkin) were the Fomorians, and the Cyclopses, both highly magical in nature (these are the 'planer' variety, not the prime-world garden-variety, so MUCH bigger, stronger, and smarter), and they refused to leave. They held their ground, and losses were great on both sides. until Corellon met with the mighty king of the Cyclops - Gru-Mass, or 'wild spirit'. He made a deal with him - if they would take the side of the fey in the war, he would bestow godhood on Gru-Mass, and call him 'brother' (or you could spin it that Gruumsh was a 'battle captive', and thus was being fostered by the Seldarine - such things were done among nobility in olden days). And so the treacherous (according to other giants) Cyclopsi turned on their giant kindred, and smashed the vast Fomorian Empire. The Cyclops would never be trusted again among other giants, and over time, they lost their power over Rune Magic, and became a primitive folk. The sorcerous Fomorians were broken, and they retreated, as had the other giants before them. And thus it remained until the last few centuries, when the Fomorians began to come out of hiding and are pushing back into Fey lands (this is the situation in 4e).
So Gru-Mass, who becomes Gruumsh, is called 'One Eye' by the Seldarine, and he is made one of them. He begins to care less and less about his own people (as was Corellon's plan), and more and more about the Fey, and even begins to manipulate (physically, for he is now a 'god') some of the smaller fey into shapes similar to the Eladrin. And so, it was Gruumsh who created the elves, NOT Corellon. Corellon, being done done with the war and bored by his stepbrother, looked upon these new 'Fey' with disdain. Surely, Gruumsh realized they could never match the splendor of his Eladrin? The ęlves were also shorter-lived - mortal, in fact, for Gruumsh did not have the power to create other immortals. But they bred like wildfire, and soon outnumbered the other High Fey. And they were 'rougher' - more course then Corellon's beautiful creations.
Gruumsh and Corellon finally had it out over the ęlves, and they fought, but Araushnee intervened. It was only then that Corellon saw what had grown between his paramour and the creature he had taken in out of kindness. He made a decree - that whatever elves wished to be civilized - to learn art and poetry and become things of beauty like the Eldarin, would be 'Seelie', his 'chosen ones'. Those who insisted on remaining brutes should leave the feywild, never to return. Most would make the choice, and those that were true to their creator Gruumsh became known as the Goblyns - the 'Unseelie', and those who stayed and learned the ways of Fey virtues would simply be the elves. Of the lesser fey - the small folk - many of them chose sides as well, but since they lived in the rural places, Corellon dd not have look upon them, and he simply ignored them (thus, small 'Goblyn' {Unseelie} fey were able to remain in the Feywild if they so chose). But the High Goblyns (Hobgoblins) left, and spread through the myriad worlds, following in the footsteps of the giants before them. Some of these continued to follow Gruumsh, and became more 'giant like' over time (less hairy and feral-seeming), and became know as 'Orks' (small ogres in some dark tongue), while others followed their own noble fey leader Maglubiyet, 'the Goblyn king'. And over time, these groups split and resplit, forming entire new subspecies, like the Bugbears who broke from the Hobs, and the green orcs who broke from the greys. Soon there was as many types of goblins and orcs as there were spheres in the ethereal, and some even forgot Gruumsh, and Maglubiyet, or even that they had once been fey.
Also in time, Corellon came to despise the elves, and lit upon a plan - he would tell the elder Fey (Eladrin) to send the elves out into the Prime Worlds, to help destroy the dragons, feigning remorse over what happened with the giants, and how the giants were now embroiled in a war with the powerful reptiles. And so, like the giants and then the Goblyns, even the elves were sent from Faerie - Corellon would abide no imperfections in his world. And Araushnee watched, and she fumed....
The Ondonti were a special case - they were once a group of Orcs who found their way back to the Feywild, and when the fey looked upon them and saw their peaceful ways, they let them stay. Occasionally tribes of Ondonti get too large, and groups would leave through fey-gates back to prime worlds.
Gruumsh and Corellon would fight again, and this time Araushnee would take sides. In fact, the fight will have been at her urging, because she never forgave Corellon for sending the elves away. The Seldarine won the day, thanks to the treachery of Araushnee's own daughter (for she was Corellon's daughter as well). Gruumsh fled the battlefield to fight another day (the Eldarin spreading a false tale of him losing an eye to Corellon's blade), and Araushnee became Lolth, and was sent to the Abyss for punishment. And then he turned on her children, including his own daughter who aided him, and banished them as well, in his anger. For such was the rage of Corellon, the mad tyrant-Estelar of the Feywild. Many gods who had been closely allied with the seldarine withdrew their support that day - even many of the fey deities formed their own, neutral pantheon away from the Horned God.
And so, the greatest secret ever kept by the fey - Eladrin and elves alike - is that it was Gruumsh who created the elves, and protected them. And it was Lolth who tried to provide them with succor. But the elves would have you believe otherwise, for their true history is too painful for them to bare. And the wheels of time march on, forever circling round & round - people of all different races conquering what they perceive as 'savages', to help prop-up their own delusion of their personal nobility. When in truth, it is the vain and jealous who make war upon those who just want to be left in peace, and it is the 'noble savage' who stands up to their brutality. Understand, my friends, that the 'histories' that you have all been taught were written down by elves, long ago. And they lie...
--- Lazarus Tymiiri, Sage Supreme of the Kulian Tower of High Knowledge |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Feb 2018 : 00:20:06
Actually, it most likely does, since the 4e lore tromped all over previous lore. We have it in 4e lore Corellon created the 'Fey Elves', who were the Eladrin. Nowhere does it say he created the 'regular garden variety elves' anymore, and the stuff about his blood & tears are just hyperbole.
We have a defiinite creation of Eladrin, and then sometime later (after all sorts of deific conflicts and world-breakage), we have 'the Fey' (who we now know in hindsight were the Eladrin) sent 'the elves' (Sylvan/Green elves) to Faerūn (and perhaps other worlds as well, but thats conjecture).
Now, the newer lore not only names two major conflicts the Selarine were preoccupied with at the time when the elves must have been created, but the lore also implies that both Lolth and Gruumsh felt Corellon was not paying enough attention to 'his' children (more-so Lolth than Gruumsh - Gruumsh just took his followers and left). So, when you take all that into consideration, the 'elves' (NOT Eladrin) were created at a time when Corellon would have been least-likely to have been involved.
HOWEVER, in the new sourcebook coming out - Mordenkainen's Guide to Stuff (or whatever) - they ARE going to be delving into the ancient, primal history of the Elves, and the conflicts between Corellon, Gruumsh, and Lolth. So we may not have much to argue about very soon, because we may be getting a definitive answer to a lot of things...
Which I both love and hate at the same time.  |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 01:05:05
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
the Fey themselves probably created the Elves, hence them being a 'Creator Race')
-No, it does not have to- and likely does not- mean that! 
(lol, the eternal battle) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 00:43:51
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
And where is the article. Im always on the lookout to add local elven pantheon members.
I'm sure you've read it. I knew the gods from the article itself (I just never worte them down because I had no interest in them before), but now, year later, when I read the lore in the article, i am seeing it in a whole new light (with 3e & 4e behind now, and 5e in front of us). Its the article on Elven magic in Dragon #251. For example, I never noticed beofre that lolth and the Queen of Air & Darkness have worked together before. That's kind of a big deal to me, because I've connected them together in other things (and now, YEARS later, when we know the elves ARE fey, it means the two goddesses have extremely similar origins - both 'fey' that have been booted from their original pantheon).
There's also Rhiannon from Dragon #155, who supposedly created the Fey. I am interpreting that to now mean the smallish fey, since we also now know Corellon was directly responsible for the creation of the tall Fey (Eladrin, and later, elves). This means Rhiannon either had to also be Seldarine, or is the very first archfey (Arch-archfey? lol), but probably a primal spirit who became the first archfey. In fact, I'm not seeing a real difference between most of those 'primal spirits' and the Seldarine (who are no the Fey gods, which means all of the fey deities should be Seldarine as well, in hindsight).
But after watching THIS VIDEO, I've decided to hold-off on any more specuation about the ancient elves, fey, and drow. Or anything else 'cosmological', for that matter. I have a feeling all my theories are about to get trampled on.
"We here at Hasbro are working hard to take away your personal fun. As a toy company, we feel its out obligations to inform you of the proper way to have fun."
I've never been this elated and simultaneously filled with dread at the same time before - I'll be picking that book up as soon as it comes out. (Damn them all to hell!) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 22:09:30
quote:
So you don't like 'short and simple' names? Try being a cartographer. the first time you run into a crowded area with a "Mouth 'O' Gargoyles" you'll be pulling your hair out.
Or, as always happens in real-life, a place named "Mouth 'O Gargoyles" gets shortened into "the Mouth" in common usage, unless of course "Mouth 'O Gargoyles" needs to be distinguished and disambiguated from the nearby "Mouth 'O Dragons", lol. And "the Mouth" can easily turn into "Stormbeard's Mouth" after the pirate Stormbeard hides his treasure there, or it might become "Windmouth" or "Bridgemouth" or "Stoneclaw" or "Blacknest" or whatever. "Hello, I'm looking for 'MOG' ... do you know where I can find it?"
The name of the place/thing in practice is whatever most conveniently differentiates and meaningfully identifies it in local usage. Formal titles and antiquated monikers are the stuff of historians and pedants. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 15:51:59
Gruumsh? Where did you come from, where did you go; where did you come from Cotton-Eyed Joe... |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 08:43:00
And where is the article. Im always on the lookout to add local elven pantheon members |
| Markustay |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 08:01:14
And now I just found a DIRECT canon connection between Lolth and the Queen of Air & Darkness. I think its time for me to get back to figuring out the exact 'familial' relationships between all these beings.
I've not only found about 10 'extra' Seldarine in sources, but we now know that Elves ARE Fey, and that the Seldarine (primarily Corellon) created the Fey (turns out, though, he may not have created the elves - the Fey themselves probably created the Elves, hence them being a 'Creator Race'). This means that ALL fey deities should also be part of the Seldarine (some already are). Expanding the list outward further, we can include the Anti-Seldarine (Drow and Goblyn gods), and 'love interests'(like Trishina), giving us a MUCH huger pantheon than any of the human ones.
Now I have a base for my proto-pantheon - the first 'club' of Gods. 
In the same place I found the QoA&D connection I found another interesting bit of lore, directly pertaining to other stuff I've been talking about. The Elven god Tilvenar had one of his avatars get 'corrupted', and it spread to other avatars (and they all ran amok), and he lost most of his power and prestige because of it. That's an example of what I've been taking about - how each Avatar/Aspect is also 'its own person'. If you don't reabsorb them every so often you run the risk of having them stray, but in a case like the one I just noted, reabsorbing could also spread a contagion to others.
New Analogy: Think of a God as a nice hearty stew - you scoop bowls out to serve, but people (mortals) 'flavor' their individual bowls to their own tastes (salt, pepper, string beans, spinach, whatever), but instead of anyone 'eating' the bowl of stew (that also happens LOL), all the bowls get dumped back into the pot every once in while. While this helps keep the 'taste' uniform (for the next round of bowls), it also means that the original flavor keeps getting 'watered' down (changed by all the individual changes to each bowl/avatar). And that's the risk of having the deity template (one of them, anyway). When Tilvenar tried to reign-in his one aberrant avatar, it 'infected' others.
Also in that same article (can't believe I hadn't read it before), it has an example of Malar and Talos working together against a member of the Elven Pantheon - that's more evidence that Talos was Gruumsh, me thinks, since those two have worked together before to bring down the Seldarine. Mask was also in on it, which is an odd choice, but I sometimes think Mask may be an aspect of Vhaeraun that Shar got control of (although I seem to have missed reading the novel that discusses the relationship between Mask and Shar - isn't it supposed to be mother & son, or some-such?) On the other hand, that all just makes the Lolth-is-Shar heresy all the more believable.
I am really starting to think the Seldarine was the ONLY gods, and everything else are just aspect that have split off of them.  |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Feb 2018 : 03:05:52
So what do we know? Nerull was an ancient power himself (I didn't think so, but he is supposedly pre-sentient races on Earth, which puts him pretty far back on the timeline). At some point, his power is usurped by some unknown 'sorcerer queen' who enters him realm and beguiles him with her wiles (and considering he is a clone of Myrkul - just a stereotypical skeleton-dude with scythe - thats pretty impressive). This could not have possibly happened more than about a 100-120 years ago, tops. At the same time Nerull disappears and The Raven Queen makes her debut, we find out Auril is really Aurilandur, who is the Queen of Air & Darkness. So we got two goddesses who existed before, but we just found out in 4e they are suddenly 'queens'. Two Queens both appearing at the same time (in lore).
So researching Nerull, I find out he pas a Quadripartite deity along with Pelor, Obad-hai, and Kord. This sounds similar to our fan theories regarding 'the Dusk Lord'. Just as Nerull is a double for Myrkul, Lathander is a knock-off of Pelor. And there is another parallel I only just discovered - in Oerth mythology Nerull kills Obad-hai every winter - he literally ushers in the cold season with death. There is our connection to Winter!
What if Nerull's been holding onto to some (at least two) of the Regalia of Winter? The Raven Queen (who Nerull called Nera, although that may not be her original name) kills him, takes his stuff, and when she grasps his scythe (or whatever), she gets flooded with Auril's memories of her time as the Queen of Air & Darkness. This overwrites parts of tRQ's personality so she has some of the memories of Aurilandur, and wants her stuff. Meanwhile, another item he had teleports back to Auril*, which awakens Auril's own memories of who she is and who she is supposed to be (the Queen of Air & Darkness). Auril remembers she is a Fey Queen, and The Raven thinks she is a Queen. The two events happen nearly simultaneaously.
Now lets add in another similar goddess, who just happened to disappear right around the time tRQ showed up - Kiaransalee. Kiaransalee got brain-blasted by the epic magic that 'erased people's memory of her', including her memory of herself. She is stripped of divinity because of it, and wanders into Nerull's realm, sans memory. But she knows she is supposed to be a powerful being - she still has a great deal of power (she just can't amass any more without worshipers). She pulls a coup on Nerull and takes his stuff, and THAT is why Auril's memories stuff in the item coming flooding into her - she is a tabla rasa - a blank slate. She becomes a Queen and a goddess once again (because Kiaransalee was ALSO a Queen - they all were!)
Now, its canon that Orcus and the Raven Queen don't like each other, YET, they don't even know each other! How can a brand new goddess on the scene be one of Orcus arch-enemies? easy - because he knows who she is, and he HATES Kiaransalee, and she returns the animosity, even if she's forgotten why (she just thinks about him and is fill with loathing). It comes full-circle - two 'death queens' that Orcus hates (in canon) bitterly - one appears right around the time the other disappears.
And one last loose end - back in Threnody, when Kiaransalee ruled her own Realm, her people called her The Raven Queen. She may not have remembered her true name, but she did remember being called that once. Auril - because of her own memory problems (due to the Black Diamond) - doesn't recall Kiaransalee, but the two should know each other; both were archfey (although it might make more sense to paint tRQ as a 1/2 Dark Fey - she ruled a drow world, so she may have found it expedient to appear as a full-drow when she was their Queen, and that just 'stuck' when she became a goddess). The two may even be related. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 05 Feb 2018 : 02:59:05
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thats why I say Talos was the Realmsian aspect of Gruumsh, but then a different aspect - a more 'Gruumshier' Gruumsh from an 'Orc World' came through the Orcgates. I've been saying this for some time.
The 2 aspect were different enough that we had both for a time (plus, Talos had 'home field advantage', and most of the existing orcs and quite a bit of humans worshiped him). Eventually 'New Gruumsh' built enough of his own power-base - including gaining the worship of the indigenous Orcs - To challenge Talos, whom he though was inferior, and absorb him ("kill him and take his stuff"). Part of this was the things Gruumsh was doing with Obould and Manyarrows in The North.
So as of 4e they were one and the same, but as of 5e we have both again. Ao may have somehow managed to force them to separate, but more likely, he simply commanded Gruumsh to create a Talos-aspect from himself and use it as an alias (and Gruumsh doesn't mind having human followers - he probably studied all the benefits thre was to the way humans did things while he was still plotting against Talos).
This last part was to appease people like Wooly (whom I agree with in this regard) - Gruumsh wasn't acting very 'Gruumshy' in regards to Manyarrows - it could be the absorption process had already begun. He had finally learned that perhaps intelligence can also be strength.
I'm still going with Talos was in Abeir and Gruumsh simply pulled a con game during the spellplague, and ultimately he got caught at it. When he got caught at it, Auril even took many of Talos' portfolios from him. Now that Talos is back, Auril was likely forced to relinquish them.
I'm somewhere between you and Dazzler on gods. I believe in having as many as possible - I've never not allowed a player to worship and deity they've ever heard of at my table. The 'more the merrier' - it makes for an interesting world.
HOWEVER, at the exact same time I think most of those are really just aspects of something else, which are, in-turn, aspects of something even hire on the foodchain. All the Estelar (Arcntypes) and Primordial are just aspects of 12 Superbnals, who are themslevs just 'paths' within the consciousness of The ONE (it split into 'divine masculine/divine feminine', and then those split into 12 other beings - six of each - the Supernals). And it works its way all the way down the line - we ourselves (mortals) are just 'pieces of something greater'. And we can also split - there rally is no end to how much you can split the 'soulstuff' (which is how more than one clone can be active at once, although situations like this - 'soul tearing' - can be traumatic to most mortals, and could drive one insane).
So really, there is only one being in the entire multiverse, but it's got the WORST case of multiple-personality disorder EVER.
(so 'all the gods you can ever want', but its all just an illusion)
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
From a game perspective, we could even have something where during that time Gruumsh took some item of Talos' and was using it. For instance, maybe Gruumsh actually got ahold of Talos' eyepatch (which is one of the "Regalia of Hoarfrost Winds & Darkness".... trying to come up with a better name for that "Regalia of Winter") and was using it to impersonate Talos.
So you don't like 'short and simple' names? Try being a cartographer. the first time you run into a crowded area with a "Mouth 'O' Gargoyles" you'll be pulling your hair out.
Call the eyepatch 'The Cover Of Storms', because it covers the eye, and its a play on words - you 'take cover' from a storm. I like it as part of the Regalia of Winter (although I don't see the necessity in so many items as part of it - the other archfey aren't nearly so complex). Between Talos returning and the Raven Queen showing up, poor Auril really has her work cut-out for her.
And while I am on the subject, I a starting to rethink parts of tRQ's backstory as really part of Aurilandur's. Because tRQ has part of the Hoar regalia (I am only using that because... ya know... HOAR Regalia... Auril and tRQ? Nevermind..... 
Anyhow... What if Auril is really the one who usurped Nerull's power? This might make much more sense than the Raven Queen's having done it (because she is consider one of the 'ancient ones', which makes absolutely no sense, since Nerull was an active god in Greyhawk until very recently (a little more than a century, at best). |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 04 Feb 2018 : 18:20:31
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I'm starting to look at it like this:
Humans may have been created by a particular God...but they have gone on to worship any number of beings.
There is no reason to believe that the Orcs have not also had many instances of worshiping non-Orc gods.
-I mean, it's always been a canon fact that there are and have been groups of Orcs- some significant in their size or influence- that worship non-Orc gods out there. Delving into the earliest days of recorded Forgotten Realms history is kind of different, since it also has to do with the origins of the species and how they got to Toril. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Feb 2018 : 15:43:29
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I would disagree. He's the god of the orcs. They're his children. It only makes sense that he goes where they do.
Wooly, I'm not saying he was not in Toril...I'm saying he wasn't as strongly felt in Toril until after the Orcgate Wars.
I'm saying that before that time, it looks like many orcs were ALSO under the influence of infernal forces.
I agree with this idea and welcome it. I think that having orcs turning to Gruumsh and his pantheon as a means to turn them AWAY from the worship of demons and devils is actually somewhat a lesser of two evils scenario. Having Gruumsh actually be some kind of "ascended" mortal or archfey or something, and prior to him orcs existing, but worshipping demons and devils..... it works. Orcus, Baphomet, Kostchtchie, would all seem to work as a patron for orcs. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 04 Feb 2018 : 15:22:16
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thats why I say Talos was the Realmsian aspect of Gruumsh, but then a different aspect - a more 'Gruumshier' Gruumsh from an 'Orc World' came through the Orcgates. I've been saying this for some time.
The 2 aspect were different enough that we had both for a time (plus, Talos had 'home field advantage', and most of the existing orcs and quite a bit of humans worshiped him). Eventually 'New Gruumsh' built enough of his own power-base - including gaining the worship of the indigenous Orcs - To challenge Talos, whom he though was inferior, and absorb him ("kill him and take his stuff"). Part of this was the things Gruumsh was doing with Obould and Manyarrows in The North.
So as of 4e they were one and the same, but as of 5e we have both again. Ao may have somehow managed to force them to separate, but more likely, he simply commanded Gruumsh to create a Talos-aspect from himself and use it as an alias (and Gruumsh doesn't mind having human followers - he probably studied all the benefits thre was to the way humans did things while he was still plotting against Talos).
This last part was to appease people like Wooly (whom I agree with in this regard) - Gruumsh wasn't acting very 'Gruumshy' in regards to Manyarrows - it could be the absorption process had already begun. He had finally learned that perhaps intelligence can also be strength.
I'm still going with Talos was in Abeir and Gruumsh simply pulled a con game during the spellplague, and ultimately he got caught at it. When he got caught at it, Auril even took many of Talos' portfolios from him. Now that Talos is back, Auril was likely forced to relinquish them. From a game perspective, we could even have something where during that time Gruumsh took some item of Talos' and was using it. For instance, maybe Gruumsh actually got ahold of Talos' eyepatch (which is one of the "Regalia of Hoarfrost Winds & Darkness".... trying to come up with a better name for that "Regalia of Winter") and was using it to impersonate Talos. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 04 Feb 2018 : 04:19:52
I'm starting to look at it like this:
Humans may have been created by a particular God...but they have gone on to worship any number of beings.
There is no reason to believe that the Orcs have not also had many instances of worshiping non-Orc gods. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 04 Feb 2018 : 02:11:59
-In Evermeet, during the conversation between Araushnee and Malar, which takes place circa -30,000 DR or before (before Araushnee became Lolth), she says to Malar "your Orcs", meaning that he has worshipers among them and is a power of some sort to them. So, there's another non-Gruumsh possibility in those early days. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 22:48:45
In the stuff I am doing for Katshaka, I am spinning the 'orcs' from there as debased Hobgoblins (Bauchani) - ones that started worshiping something called 'kagon' (really, Dagon), and they began to change. They started looking more like how we picture orcs. It was that offshoot - the 'Kagon' after their god - that had an 'ebil empire' for a time, and even invaded Lopango (Maztica). Some of that was derived from the Nyambe material, since THAT was considered a semi-official 'substitute' for real Katashaka lore, and I'm just trying to make it more 'ours' by tweaking it.
And this goes hand-in-hand with the conclusions Dalor has drawn; it seems that for some time the goblinoids were mostly ignored by their gods, and many took to worshiping fiendish powers or even Elder Evils. I think it was at that point the others all began to diverge from the 'pure' form of Hobgoblin, and depending on the level of corruption is how odd or bestial they appear now (I am going to have to have a word with whatever power was breeding my nice, sexy orcs with pigs back in 1e & OD&D!)
So perhaps Gruumsh realized he should stop just ignoring them (whether he was on Toril or not), and take a more active role, before they all became losels or varag. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 22:27:21
Well, given that Gruumsh is supposedly Corellon's 'brother' (we could just ignore this as foklore, but back in those earliest times, I think this meant something different anyway - all of those 'first gods' were family (its not like their mom went into labor and had them... if they even had a mom), we have to infer that orcs are some sort of fey. We have the Ondonti - FEY Orcs - and we instances where orcs can live side-by-side with elves (they do so in The High Forest - they aren't 'bestest buds', but they do manage to maintain non-aggression). They've even been know to live WITH dwarves (thanks to RAS). Also, Orcs are usually considered 'goblinoids', even if they are normally mentioned separately (ie., "Orcs and goblinoids"), and goblins are traditionally - in folklore - considered fey. Albeit nasty fey.
And although this whole 'orcs came from the fey' thing rings of Tolkien, Tolkien got HIS ideas from folklore as well, and we are just getting closer to the roots of of myth by harkening back to this. The spin now is that two have a common ancestry, rather than 'ebil demigod messed with them', so its a different, more natural, take.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I encountered this very same weirdness a while back and here is how I deal with it. It makes an assumption that mountain orcs originally came from Faerie.
EXACTLY.
However, the one thing I have realized now that I have been dissecting D&D lore (history, races, gods, etc.) is that it makes much more sense that hobgoblins aren't an offshoot - they are the descendants of the original line (closest to the progenitors, although still not the same thing). The tall ones all started out 'Alfar', but they were divided by 'politics' (Seelie & Unseelie). That while the Ljosalfar have Ealdrin ('High Fey'), and regular fey - the 'lesser', small varieties of Urchins (Brownie-like progenitors) and Sprites (the tiny 'fairy' ones), the Dokalfar had the Goblyns - Hobgoblins ('High Goblyns'), goblins, and Spites (malicious tiny fey).
Seelie Unseelie
Eladrin Hobgoblin = 'Alfar'
Urchin Goblin = 'small folk'
Sprite Spite = 'wee folk'
I also separate the 'High Fey' ('Trooping Faeries') by capitalizing the 'F', and the small ones by not doing so. I believe (MAJOR Homebrew alert) that the smaller ones occur in the feywild naturally, as part of the natural process of the planes. That they are the 'elementals' of nature itself. I believe (there's that word again) that Corellon (and probably the rest of the Seldarine, including Gruumsh) created the ęlves (Alfar) from the proto-fey - the Will-O Wisps (just balls of energy, like larvae, that will eventually turn into a fey). That's PURE conjecture, based on nothing but my own musings. But there has to be a reason why we have these two very different categories, and to do them like this allows us to fudge quite a bit of other lore snafus (unless someone has a better take - I'm all ears).
Then they get their own homeland of Ladinion (that IS canon), and I personally think it would be better if that wasn't in the feywild (even though that's where Corellon got his 'raw materials' to make them). The reason why I say this is that we have lore about the giants running things there first, which causes some problems, consistency wise. How can the fey be IN the feywild, and the giants rule there, even though they are not 'native' (presumably), without the fey themselves having been subjugated at some point. The only lore we have tells us quite the opposite - the fey overthrew the giants and took over the place.
However, that far back in the timeline ("The Time Before time"), it doesn't really matter if Ladinion was IN the Feywild or outside of it, because it was all part of the First World. Before the Lattice of Heaven was shattered, everything was connected, thus, going from the 'Giantlands' to 'Faerie' would be like us going from Europe to the Americas - its all the same world (even if they were different planes - that didn't mean the same thing back then, just as moving from one continent to another isn't as big a deal as it was just a few centuries ago). Part of the confusion stems from us thinking about the Before-Sundering time as being just like now, when it was really a whole different universe.
Anyhow, I digress... the point I was trying to make is that the Seldarine made 'the elves', and they split over differences of outlook (that part is neo-canon, due to the lore concerning Gruumsh and Corellon, which simply extended existing lore to make it more... familial). But instead of putting 'orcs' at the top of that (Unseelie) food-chain, I've decided hobgoblins make so much more sense. They've always been our 'bigger, better, faster (dexterous), smarter 'Orcs'. Also, thanks to the ears, they look much more like Fey (Alfar looked more like VG elves - with those big ears so many people love/hate). Do yourselves a favor and look at some images of Pathfinder (Golarion) Hobgoblins - they've done great things with them. They look (most of them, especially the females) like gray-bluish fey! Thats how I picture the originals looking - not all that much different then their Eldarin brethren (and those Eldarin fey would have also had a more 'feral' look - some even had tails!)
Hobgoblins - ignore the steampunk-ish elements
Male
Female
You can see the look I am going for. Eberron has some nice examples as well -
Eberron Hobgoblin
Another One that has 'the look' of something fey-ish.
Another, very 'fey' looking female. (if you colored her 'peach', she'd look like an elf)
But they've become 'debased' (less evolved) over the millennia because of the barbaric conditions the tend to be forced to live, and some tribes are even more 'bestial'. I think bugbears are an offshoot of them when they mixed with something else (maybe several somethings). Thus, most of the Hobgoblins we see n Faerūn - having been mixing with Orcs, other goblinoids, and gods-know-what-else over the years have become the more feral ones we know today. Outside of Faerūn, it appears things could have gone differently. Looking at some of the DnDNext & 5e art, I would say that's the direction WotC headed in as well.
And then there's Fanfare.
Perhaps not THAT cute...  |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 22:14:32
Well demigods is easy, the clue is in the name. They are not actually gods. They have some of the power of a god contained within a material vessel and they have found a way to donate that power to other is a way similar to true gods.
But in the end there is little to distinguish a demigod from a human (apart from the sheer power difference).
A true god is only present on the outer planes. They have shed their material form and are made up entirely of belief. They exist in multiple planes of existence at the same time. A demigod has not made that leap yet, they have not truly ascended to other planes of existence they are a single vessel with a single mind.
Now that im well into redoing bits of the realms i am putting all these demigods back into the realms where they belong. Yes they can travel to the outer planes if they want like any other mortal, but they dont belong there. Lurue is a unicorn in the high forest. The Red Knight is a woman in Tethyr. Hoar is a man in Chessenta. The are all real people that you can meet but they all hide away because their divine nature makes them targets.
At least thats how im playing it. Its the only way that makes sense to me. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 20:17:39
-I don't think that Orcs being led by Haeshkarr means that the Orcs were demon worshipers. As Wooly said, I don't think that a non-mention means non-existence- especially regarding an obscure topic that doesn't have very much printed material to begin with. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 20:16:59
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Avatars are fine. They are summoned by the worshippers and are not direct deific intervention. A god cannot manifest an avatar unless called upon.
I just dont allow actual gods to turn up anywhere or whsiper to worshippers to do something or to make someone do something. They can communicate via proxies but so can all other gods so you never know of the divine servant you spoke to was sent by your god or an enemy. Visions are of course chaotic as you are being sent a mind caption by a being that exists on 5 planes of existence at once
I like your take on things...it is more like the way it was intended to be in 1e AD&D; though Gygax and others DID allow Demi-Gods and such to directly interfere quite often it was still in a limited capacity even for the likes of Iuz who lived right in the middle of Greyhawk!
When you read the original Deities & Demigods it specifically has rules that set things up so that the Gods are VERY limited in how they can be called on directly.
Hell, even THIS COVER shows them having to be summoned and I think that was the intention. Gods weren't intended to be there to direct their followers; but to respond to their needs. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 20:10:20
Avatars are fine. They are summoned by the worshippers and are not direct deific intervention. A god cannot manifest an avatar unless called upon.
I just dont allow actual gods to turn up anywhere or whsiper to worshippers to do something or to make someone do something. They can communicate via proxies but so can all other gods so you never know of the divine servant you spoke to was sent by your god or an enemy. Visions are of course chaotic as you are being sent a mind caption by a being that exists on 5 planes of existence at once |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 20:03:08
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
But this all hinges on my interpretation of gods and worshippers which puts the worshippers in the driving seat not the gods (who are vague and mysterious and not interacted with directly or take any direct actions).
If they don't take direct actions, what do you do to describe the events of the Orcgate Wars? Since direct Avatars took part, would you say that it was the group faith of the orcs that was creating the Avatars? |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 19:52:03
I encountered this very same weirdness a while back and here is how I deal with it. It makes an assumption that mountain orcs originally came from Faerie.
So Faerie is an Inner/Transitive Plane. Belief does not have any bearing upon it. Corellon and Gruumsh were both Faerie Lords way back when (the Seldarine are stated as being Faerie Lords). This means they are powerful and immortal but nobody on Faerie worships them because it would not do anything.
On the Material Plane belief creates the Outer Planes it forms them and their arrangement and creates the gods that populate them. Why do people bother to believe, because when they die their soul goes to the outer planes and they have a chance to be reborn as another being (although mostly they just get eaten by another planar denizen or absorbed by the plane itself).
So the mountain orcs were subservient to Gruumsh, but they escaped to Faerun and Gruumsh wasn't there. Worship was an alien concept to them at first but gradually they picked it up from their enemies (the elves and dwarves). By this time Gruumsh was barely a memory but there were plenty of other beings trying to tempt them, demons loved the cruel and destructive orcs.
I don't doubt a few minor powers were created briefly by orcs worshipping powerful ancestors but these would likely last barely an orc generation or two (as soon as an orc horde failed they discard the power and he is lost).
Then along come the grey orcs. They come from another world (although origins may originally have been Faerie). Maybe Gruumsh was exiled from Faerie to this orc world and that's how his worship began (after all Gruumsh attacked Corellon and both were Faerie Lords and Gruumsh lost so exile seems a likely punishment).
The grey orcs bring worship of Gruumsh to Faerun and within a century they have spread as far west as Damara and beneath the mountains of Vaasa to the other side. At the same time during Netheril the mountain orcs had finally breached the power of Delzoun and Sharrven and gotten into Netheril's lands and had spread as far east as the Ride/Tortured Lands so it is here that the Mountain Orcs first hear of Gruumsh again and how he won a great victory and killed the gods of great human empires.
From that point on worship spreads throughout the mountain orcs who with their hording instinct naturally spread outward from high population points and so can quickly get back to the Spine of the World and down south and south east to reach everywhere from the North to Calimshan to Sembia which is pretty much their spread today.
So summary is that while on Faerie belief and worship are meaningless because it is not the material plane and has little/no connection to the outer planes. Once you get to the material plane that is when worship comes into play and that belief is what powers the outer planes and created them in the first place. So no one worshipped Gruumsh until they got to the Material Plane and its just that the mountain orcs never bothered to worship anyone until they had long forgotten about Gruumsh.
But this all hinges on my interpretation of gods and worshippers which puts the worshippers in the driving seat not the gods (who are vague and mysterious and not interacted with directly or take any direct actions). |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 19:46:42
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I would disagree. He's the god of the orcs. They're his children. It only makes sense that he goes where they do.
Wooly, I'm not saying he was not in Toril...I'm saying he wasn't as strongly felt in Toril until after the Orcgate Wars.
I'm saying that before that time, it looks like many orcs were ALSO under the influence of infernal forces. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 19:30:57
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I think this is something I would actually like to ask Ed about.
It just doesn't "feel right" that the Orcs in the Forgotten Realms didn't worship Gruumsh and the other Orc Gods until the Orcgate Wars; but LITERALLY I have been pouring over every single resource I can find and don't see anything that says "Gruumsh" before the Orcgate Wars.
I'm not sure that a failure to mention Gruumsh before means he wasn't worshipped... When is the earliest mention of Corellon in the Realms, compared to the earliest mention of elves?
I don't think it means he wasn't there...but it seems until the Orcgate Wars that Orcs also were commonly under the sway of other forces.
I would disagree. He's the god of the orcs. They're his children. It only makes sense that he goes where they do. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 19:05:05
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I think this is something I would actually like to ask Ed about.
It just doesn't "feel right" that the Orcs in the Forgotten Realms didn't worship Gruumsh and the other Orc Gods until the Orcgate Wars; but LITERALLY I have been pouring over every single resource I can find and don't see anything that says "Gruumsh" before the Orcgate Wars.
I'm not sure that a failure to mention Gruumsh before means he wasn't worshipped... When is the earliest mention of Corellon in the Realms, compared to the earliest mention of elves?
I don't think it means he wasn't there...but it seems until the Orcgate Wars that Orcs also were commonly under the sway of other forces. |
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