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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 00:26:13
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Can anyone point me to a Canon reference of Orcs worshiping Gruumsh in the Forgotten Realms before the Orcgate Wars?
In the Grand History of the Realms the first reference I've found of ol' One-Eye is during the Orcgate Wars.
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 04:44:17
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Thats why I say Talos was the Realmsian aspect of Gruumsh, but then a different aspect - a more 'Gruumshier' Gruumsh from an 'Orc World' came through the Orcgates. I've been saying this for some time.
The 2 aspect were different enough that we had both for a time (plus, Talos had 'home field advantage', and most of the existing orcs and quite a bit of humans worshiped him). Eventually 'New Gruumsh' built enough of his own power-base - including gaining the worship of the indigenous Orcs - To challenge Talos, whom he though was inferior, and absorb him ("kill him and take his stuff"). Part of this was the things Gruumsh was doing with Obould and Manyarrows in The North.
So as of 4e they were one and the same, but as of 5e we have both again. Ao may have somehow managed to force them to separate, but more likely, he simply commanded Gruumsh to create a Talos-aspect from himself and use it as an alias (and Gruumsh doesn't mind having human followers - he probably studied all the benefits thre was to the way humans did things while he was still plotting against Talos).
This last part was to appease people like Wooly (whom I agree with in this regard) - Gruumsh wasn't acting very 'Gruumshy' in regards to Manyarrows - it could be the absorption process had already begun. He had finally learned that perhaps intelligence can also be strength. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Feb 2018 04:46:50 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 05:01:56
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I think this is something I would actually like to ask Ed about.
It just doesn't "feel right" that the Orcs in the Forgotten Realms didn't worship Gruumsh and the other Orc Gods until the Orcgate Wars; but LITERALLY I have been pouring over every single resource I can find and don't see anything that says "Gruumsh" before the Orcgate Wars. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 05:59:32
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I am going to let you in on a closely guarded secret {shhhhhhhhhhh... don't tell anyone} - sometimes its better to not 'ask Ed'.
I was working with some folks and at one point I made a comment that, "wow, maybe I shouldn't have asked Ed, cause now we can't do this...", and I was told, "finally figured that out, did you?"
Fortunately (in this one particular way, otherwise, UNFORTUNATELY) if you get any answers at all these days, they're usually very brief... which is VERY un-ED like (because sometimes he tells us too much... and yeah... that's a thing. Who'd of thought it?)
But I happen to know he is extremely busy at the moment, and snowed in (well, snowed in by American standards - having 6' high walls of snow on either side of you just so you can walk to your mailbox is normal in Canada). So the weather - plus business commitments and family stuff - have him pretty bogged down. That's why he's 'gone dark' for some time (although the atrocious weather was just icing on the cake... literally). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 08:06:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I am going to let you in on a closely guarded secret {shhhhhhhhhhh... don't tell anyone} - sometimes its better to not 'ask Ed'.
I was working with some folks and at one point I made a comment that, "wow, maybe I shouldn't have asked Ed, cause now we can't do this...", and I was told, "finally figured that out, did you?"
snip
I hope they told you that while trying to sound like Elminster....... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 08:16:26
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Actually, I'm 90% sure it was in an Email exchange.
We were looking for an answer about something by digging through the books, and I went and asked Ed a simple question, and he provided this wonderful page-long answer... which over-wrote stuff we already had in place. And the people I was dealing with will NOT ignore 'Ed lore', thus, everything else had to change.
But most of the time when you're NOT doing something 'tricky', like trying to build a consistent timeline, etc., his answers are pure gold. And that's why I always asked him stuff, back when he was still answering, even if I knew the answer might hurt my own plans for something. its always worth that risk.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Feb 2018 22:35:27 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 15:53:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I think this is something I would actually like to ask Ed about.
It just doesn't "feel right" that the Orcs in the Forgotten Realms didn't worship Gruumsh and the other Orc Gods until the Orcgate Wars; but LITERALLY I have been pouring over every single resource I can find and don't see anything that says "Gruumsh" before the Orcgate Wars.
I'm not sure that a failure to mention Gruumsh before means he wasn't worshipped... When is the earliest mention of Corellon in the Realms, compared to the earliest mention of elves? |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 19:05:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I think this is something I would actually like to ask Ed about.
It just doesn't "feel right" that the Orcs in the Forgotten Realms didn't worship Gruumsh and the other Orc Gods until the Orcgate Wars; but LITERALLY I have been pouring over every single resource I can find and don't see anything that says "Gruumsh" before the Orcgate Wars.
I'm not sure that a failure to mention Gruumsh before means he wasn't worshipped... When is the earliest mention of Corellon in the Realms, compared to the earliest mention of elves?
I don't think it means he wasn't there...but it seems until the Orcgate Wars that Orcs also were commonly under the sway of other forces. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 19:30:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I think this is something I would actually like to ask Ed about.
It just doesn't "feel right" that the Orcs in the Forgotten Realms didn't worship Gruumsh and the other Orc Gods until the Orcgate Wars; but LITERALLY I have been pouring over every single resource I can find and don't see anything that says "Gruumsh" before the Orcgate Wars.
I'm not sure that a failure to mention Gruumsh before means he wasn't worshipped... When is the earliest mention of Corellon in the Realms, compared to the earliest mention of elves?
I don't think it means he wasn't there...but it seems until the Orcgate Wars that Orcs also were commonly under the sway of other forces.
I would disagree. He's the god of the orcs. They're his children. It only makes sense that he goes where they do. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 19:46:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I would disagree. He's the god of the orcs. They're his children. It only makes sense that he goes where they do.
Wooly, I'm not saying he was not in Toril...I'm saying he wasn't as strongly felt in Toril until after the Orcgate Wars.
I'm saying that before that time, it looks like many orcs were ALSO under the influence of infernal forces. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 19:52:03
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I encountered this very same weirdness a while back and here is how I deal with it. It makes an assumption that mountain orcs originally came from Faerie.
So Faerie is an Inner/Transitive Plane. Belief does not have any bearing upon it. Corellon and Gruumsh were both Faerie Lords way back when (the Seldarine are stated as being Faerie Lords). This means they are powerful and immortal but nobody on Faerie worships them because it would not do anything.
On the Material Plane belief creates the Outer Planes it forms them and their arrangement and creates the gods that populate them. Why do people bother to believe, because when they die their soul goes to the outer planes and they have a chance to be reborn as another being (although mostly they just get eaten by another planar denizen or absorbed by the plane itself).
So the mountain orcs were subservient to Gruumsh, but they escaped to Faerun and Gruumsh wasn't there. Worship was an alien concept to them at first but gradually they picked it up from their enemies (the elves and dwarves). By this time Gruumsh was barely a memory but there were plenty of other beings trying to tempt them, demons loved the cruel and destructive orcs.
I don't doubt a few minor powers were created briefly by orcs worshipping powerful ancestors but these would likely last barely an orc generation or two (as soon as an orc horde failed they discard the power and he is lost).
Then along come the grey orcs. They come from another world (although origins may originally have been Faerie). Maybe Gruumsh was exiled from Faerie to this orc world and that's how his worship began (after all Gruumsh attacked Corellon and both were Faerie Lords and Gruumsh lost so exile seems a likely punishment).
The grey orcs bring worship of Gruumsh to Faerun and within a century they have spread as far west as Damara and beneath the mountains of Vaasa to the other side. At the same time during Netheril the mountain orcs had finally breached the power of Delzoun and Sharrven and gotten into Netheril's lands and had spread as far east as the Ride/Tortured Lands so it is here that the Mountain Orcs first hear of Gruumsh again and how he won a great victory and killed the gods of great human empires.
From that point on worship spreads throughout the mountain orcs who with their hording instinct naturally spread outward from high population points and so can quickly get back to the Spine of the World and down south and south east to reach everywhere from the North to Calimshan to Sembia which is pretty much their spread today.
So summary is that while on Faerie belief and worship are meaningless because it is not the material plane and has little/no connection to the outer planes. Once you get to the material plane that is when worship comes into play and that belief is what powers the outer planes and created them in the first place. So no one worshipped Gruumsh until they got to the Material Plane and its just that the mountain orcs never bothered to worship anyone until they had long forgotten about Gruumsh.
But this all hinges on my interpretation of gods and worshippers which puts the worshippers in the driving seat not the gods (who are vague and mysterious and not interacted with directly or take any direct actions). |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 20:03:08
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
But this all hinges on my interpretation of gods and worshippers which puts the worshippers in the driving seat not the gods (who are vague and mysterious and not interacted with directly or take any direct actions).
If they don't take direct actions, what do you do to describe the events of the Orcgate Wars? Since direct Avatars took part, would you say that it was the group faith of the orcs that was creating the Avatars? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 20:16:59
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Avatars are fine. They are summoned by the worshippers and are not direct deific intervention. A god cannot manifest an avatar unless called upon.
I just dont allow actual gods to turn up anywhere or whsiper to worshippers to do something or to make someone do something. They can communicate via proxies but so can all other gods so you never know of the divine servant you spoke to was sent by your god or an enemy. Visions are of course chaotic as you are being sent a mind caption by a being that exists on 5 planes of existence at once
I like your take on things...it is more like the way it was intended to be in 1e AD&D; though Gygax and others DID allow Demi-Gods and such to directly interfere quite often it was still in a limited capacity even for the likes of Iuz who lived right in the middle of Greyhawk!
When you read the original Deities & Demigods it specifically has rules that set things up so that the Gods are VERY limited in how they can be called on directly.
Hell, even THIS COVER shows them having to be summoned and I think that was the intention. Gods weren't intended to be there to direct their followers; but to respond to their needs. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 20:17:39
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| -I don't think that Orcs being led by Haeshkarr means that the Orcs were demon worshipers. As Wooly said, I don't think that a non-mention means non-existence- especially regarding an obscure topic that doesn't have very much printed material to begin with. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 03 Feb 2018 20:19:37 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 22:27:21
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Well, given that Gruumsh is supposedly Corellon's 'brother' (we could just ignore this as foklore, but back in those earliest times, I think this meant something different anyway - all of those 'first gods' were family (its not like their mom went into labor and had them... if they even had a mom), we have to infer that orcs are some sort of fey. We have the Ondonti - FEY Orcs - and we instances where orcs can live side-by-side with elves (they do so in The High Forest - they aren't 'bestest buds', but they do manage to maintain non-aggression). They've even been know to live WITH dwarves (thanks to RAS). Also, Orcs are usually considered 'goblinoids', even if they are normally mentioned separately (ie., "Orcs and goblinoids"), and goblins are traditionally - in folklore - considered fey. Albeit nasty fey.
And although this whole 'orcs came from the fey' thing rings of Tolkien, Tolkien got HIS ideas from folklore as well, and we are just getting closer to the roots of of myth by harkening back to this. The spin now is that two have a common ancestry, rather than 'ebil demigod messed with them', so its a different, more natural, take.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I encountered this very same weirdness a while back and here is how I deal with it. It makes an assumption that mountain orcs originally came from Faerie.
EXACTLY.
However, the one thing I have realized now that I have been dissecting D&D lore (history, races, gods, etc.) is that it makes much more sense that hobgoblins aren't an offshoot - they are the descendants of the original line (closest to the progenitors, although still not the same thing). The tall ones all started out 'Alfar', but they were divided by 'politics' (Seelie & Unseelie). That while the Ljosalfar have Ealdrin ('High Fey'), and regular fey - the 'lesser', small varieties of Urchins (Brownie-like progenitors) and Sprites (the tiny 'fairy' ones), the Dokalfar had the Goblyns - Hobgoblins ('High Goblyns'), goblins, and Spites (malicious tiny fey).
Seelie Unseelie
Eladrin Hobgoblin = 'Alfar'
Urchin Goblin = 'small folk'
Sprite Spite = 'wee folk'
I also separate the 'High Fey' ('Trooping Faeries') by capitalizing the 'F', and the small ones by not doing so. I believe (MAJOR Homebrew alert) that the smaller ones occur in the feywild naturally, as part of the natural process of the planes. That they are the 'elementals' of nature itself. I believe (there's that word again) that Corellon (and probably the rest of the Seldarine, including Gruumsh) created the ęlves (Alfar) from the proto-fey - the Will-O Wisps (just balls of energy, like larvae, that will eventually turn into a fey). That's PURE conjecture, based on nothing but my own musings. But there has to be a reason why we have these two very different categories, and to do them like this allows us to fudge quite a bit of other lore snafus (unless someone has a better take - I'm all ears).
Then they get their own homeland of Ladinion (that IS canon), and I personally think it would be better if that wasn't in the feywild (even though that's where Corellon got his 'raw materials' to make them). The reason why I say this is that we have lore about the giants running things there first, which causes some problems, consistency wise. How can the fey be IN the feywild, and the giants rule there, even though they are not 'native' (presumably), without the fey themselves having been subjugated at some point. The only lore we have tells us quite the opposite - the fey overthrew the giants and took over the place.
However, that far back in the timeline ("The Time Before time"), it doesn't really matter if Ladinion was IN the Feywild or outside of it, because it was all part of the First World. Before the Lattice of Heaven was shattered, everything was connected, thus, going from the 'Giantlands' to 'Faerie' would be like us going from Europe to the Americas - its all the same world (even if they were different planes - that didn't mean the same thing back then, just as moving from one continent to another isn't as big a deal as it was just a few centuries ago). Part of the confusion stems from us thinking about the Before-Sundering time as being just like now, when it was really a whole different universe.
Anyhow, I digress... the point I was trying to make is that the Seldarine made 'the elves', and they split over differences of outlook (that part is neo-canon, due to the lore concerning Gruumsh and Corellon, which simply extended existing lore to make it more... familial). But instead of putting 'orcs' at the top of that (Unseelie) food-chain, I've decided hobgoblins make so much more sense. They've always been our 'bigger, better, faster (dexterous), smarter 'Orcs'. Also, thanks to the ears, they look much more like Fey (Alfar looked more like VG elves - with those big ears so many people love/hate). Do yourselves a favor and look at some images of Pathfinder (Golarion) Hobgoblins - they've done great things with them. They look (most of them, especially the females) like gray-bluish fey! Thats how I picture the originals looking - not all that much different then their Eldarin brethren (and those Eldarin fey would have also had a more 'feral' look - some even had tails!)
Hobgoblins - ignore the steampunk-ish elements
Male
Female
You can see the look I am going for. Eberron has some nice examples as well -
Eberron Hobgoblin
Another One that has 'the look' of something fey-ish.
Another, very 'fey' looking female. (if you colored her 'peach', she'd look like an elf)
But they've become 'debased' (less evolved) over the millennia because of the barbaric conditions the tend to be forced to live, and some tribes are even more 'bestial'. I think bugbears are an offshoot of them when they mixed with something else (maybe several somethings). Thus, most of the Hobgoblins we see n Faerūn - having been mixing with Orcs, other goblinoids, and gods-know-what-else over the years have become the more feral ones we know today. Outside of Faerūn, it appears things could have gone differently. Looking at some of the DnDNext & 5e art, I would say that's the direction WotC headed in as well.
And then there's Fanfare.
Perhaps not THAT cute...  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Feb 2018 22:34:52 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2018 : 22:48:45
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In the stuff I am doing for Katshaka, I am spinning the 'orcs' from there as debased Hobgoblins (Bauchani) - ones that started worshiping something called 'kagon' (really, Dagon), and they began to change. They started looking more like how we picture orcs. It was that offshoot - the 'Kagon' after their god - that had an 'ebil empire' for a time, and even invaded Lopango (Maztica). Some of that was derived from the Nyambe material, since THAT was considered a semi-official 'substitute' for real Katashaka lore, and I'm just trying to make it more 'ours' by tweaking it.
And this goes hand-in-hand with the conclusions Dalor has drawn; it seems that for some time the goblinoids were mostly ignored by their gods, and many took to worshiping fiendish powers or even Elder Evils. I think it was at that point the others all began to diverge from the 'pure' form of Hobgoblin, and depending on the level of corruption is how odd or bestial they appear now (I am going to have to have a word with whatever power was breeding my nice, sexy orcs with pigs back in 1e & OD&D!)
So perhaps Gruumsh realized he should stop just ignoring them (whether he was on Toril or not), and take a more active role, before they all became losels or varag. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Feb 2018 23:51:57 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2018 : 02:11:59
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| -In Evermeet, during the conversation between Araushnee and Malar, which takes place circa -30,000 DR or before (before Araushnee became Lolth), she says to Malar "your Orcs", meaning that he has worshipers among them and is a power of some sort to them. So, there's another non-Gruumsh possibility in those early days. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2018 : 04:19:52
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I'm starting to look at it like this:
Humans may have been created by a particular God...but they have gone on to worship any number of beings.
There is no reason to believe that the Orcs have not also had many instances of worshiping non-Orc gods. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2018 : 15:22:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thats why I say Talos was the Realmsian aspect of Gruumsh, but then a different aspect - a more 'Gruumshier' Gruumsh from an 'Orc World' came through the Orcgates. I've been saying this for some time.
The 2 aspect were different enough that we had both for a time (plus, Talos had 'home field advantage', and most of the existing orcs and quite a bit of humans worshiped him). Eventually 'New Gruumsh' built enough of his own power-base - including gaining the worship of the indigenous Orcs - To challenge Talos, whom he though was inferior, and absorb him ("kill him and take his stuff"). Part of this was the things Gruumsh was doing with Obould and Manyarrows in The North.
So as of 4e they were one and the same, but as of 5e we have both again. Ao may have somehow managed to force them to separate, but more likely, he simply commanded Gruumsh to create a Talos-aspect from himself and use it as an alias (and Gruumsh doesn't mind having human followers - he probably studied all the benefits thre was to the way humans did things while he was still plotting against Talos).
This last part was to appease people like Wooly (whom I agree with in this regard) - Gruumsh wasn't acting very 'Gruumshy' in regards to Manyarrows - it could be the absorption process had already begun. He had finally learned that perhaps intelligence can also be strength.
I'm still going with Talos was in Abeir and Gruumsh simply pulled a con game during the spellplague, and ultimately he got caught at it. When he got caught at it, Auril even took many of Talos' portfolios from him. Now that Talos is back, Auril was likely forced to relinquish them. From a game perspective, we could even have something where during that time Gruumsh took some item of Talos' and was using it. For instance, maybe Gruumsh actually got ahold of Talos' eyepatch (which is one of the "Regalia of Hoarfrost Winds & Darkness".... trying to come up with a better name for that "Regalia of Winter") and was using it to impersonate Talos. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2018 : 15:43:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I would disagree. He's the god of the orcs. They're his children. It only makes sense that he goes where they do.
Wooly, I'm not saying he was not in Toril...I'm saying he wasn't as strongly felt in Toril until after the Orcgate Wars.
I'm saying that before that time, it looks like many orcs were ALSO under the influence of infernal forces.
I agree with this idea and welcome it. I think that having orcs turning to Gruumsh and his pantheon as a means to turn them AWAY from the worship of demons and devils is actually somewhat a lesser of two evils scenario. Having Gruumsh actually be some kind of "ascended" mortal or archfey or something, and prior to him orcs existing, but worshipping demons and devils..... it works. Orcus, Baphomet, Kostchtchie, would all seem to work as a patron for orcs. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2018 : 18:20:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I'm starting to look at it like this:
Humans may have been created by a particular God...but they have gone on to worship any number of beings.
There is no reason to believe that the Orcs have not also had many instances of worshiping non-Orc gods.
-I mean, it's always been a canon fact that there are and have been groups of Orcs- some significant in their size or influence- that worship non-Orc gods out there. Delving into the earliest days of recorded Forgotten Realms history is kind of different, since it also has to do with the origins of the species and how they got to Toril. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2018 : 02:59:05
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thats why I say Talos was the Realmsian aspect of Gruumsh, but then a different aspect - a more 'Gruumshier' Gruumsh from an 'Orc World' came through the Orcgates. I've been saying this for some time.
The 2 aspect were different enough that we had both for a time (plus, Talos had 'home field advantage', and most of the existing orcs and quite a bit of humans worshiped him). Eventually 'New Gruumsh' built enough of his own power-base - including gaining the worship of the indigenous Orcs - To challenge Talos, whom he though was inferior, and absorb him ("kill him and take his stuff"). Part of this was the things Gruumsh was doing with Obould and Manyarrows in The North.
So as of 4e they were one and the same, but as of 5e we have both again. Ao may have somehow managed to force them to separate, but more likely, he simply commanded Gruumsh to create a Talos-aspect from himself and use it as an alias (and Gruumsh doesn't mind having human followers - he probably studied all the benefits thre was to the way humans did things while he was still plotting against Talos).
This last part was to appease people like Wooly (whom I agree with in this regard) - Gruumsh wasn't acting very 'Gruumshy' in regards to Manyarrows - it could be the absorption process had already begun. He had finally learned that perhaps intelligence can also be strength.
I'm still going with Talos was in Abeir and Gruumsh simply pulled a con game during the spellplague, and ultimately he got caught at it. When he got caught at it, Auril even took many of Talos' portfolios from him. Now that Talos is back, Auril was likely forced to relinquish them.
I'm somewhere between you and Dazzler on gods. I believe in having as many as possible - I've never not allowed a player to worship and deity they've ever heard of at my table. The 'more the merrier' - it makes for an interesting world.
HOWEVER, at the exact same time I think most of those are really just aspects of something else, which are, in-turn, aspects of something even hire on the foodchain. All the Estelar (Arcntypes) and Primordial are just aspects of 12 Superbnals, who are themslevs just 'paths' within the consciousness of The ONE (it split into 'divine masculine/divine feminine', and then those split into 12 other beings - six of each - the Supernals). And it works its way all the way down the line - we ourselves (mortals) are just 'pieces of something greater'. And we can also split - there rally is no end to how much you can split the 'soulstuff' (which is how more than one clone can be active at once, although situations like this - 'soul tearing' - can be traumatic to most mortals, and could drive one insane).
So really, there is only one being in the entire multiverse, but it's got the WORST case of multiple-personality disorder EVER.
(so 'all the gods you can ever want', but its all just an illusion)
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
From a game perspective, we could even have something where during that time Gruumsh took some item of Talos' and was using it. For instance, maybe Gruumsh actually got ahold of Talos' eyepatch (which is one of the "Regalia of Hoarfrost Winds & Darkness".... trying to come up with a better name for that "Regalia of Winter") and was using it to impersonate Talos.
So you don't like 'short and simple' names? Try being a cartographer. the first time you run into a crowded area with a "Mouth 'O' Gargoyles" you'll be pulling your hair out.
Call the eyepatch 'The Cover Of Storms', because it covers the eye, and its a play on words - you 'take cover' from a storm. I like it as part of the Regalia of Winter (although I don't see the necessity in so many items as part of it - the other archfey aren't nearly so complex). Between Talos returning and the Raven Queen showing up, poor Auril really has her work cut-out for her.
And while I am on the subject, I a starting to rethink parts of tRQ's backstory as really part of Aurilandur's. Because tRQ has part of the Hoar regalia (I am only using that because... ya know... HOAR Regalia... Auril and tRQ? Nevermind..... 
Anyhow... What if Auril is really the one who usurped Nerull's power? This might make much more sense than the Raven Queen's having done it (because she is consider one of the 'ancient ones', which makes absolutely no sense, since Nerull was an active god in Greyhawk until very recently (a little more than a century, at best). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Feb 2018 03:05:37 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2018 : 03:05:52
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So what do we know? Nerull was an ancient power himself (I didn't think so, but he is supposedly pre-sentient races on Earth, which puts him pretty far back on the timeline). At some point, his power is usurped by some unknown 'sorcerer queen' who enters him realm and beguiles him with her wiles (and considering he is a clone of Myrkul - just a stereotypical skeleton-dude with scythe - thats pretty impressive). This could not have possibly happened more than about a 100-120 years ago, tops. At the same time Nerull disappears and The Raven Queen makes her debut, we find out Auril is really Aurilandur, who is the Queen of Air & Darkness. So we got two goddesses who existed before, but we just found out in 4e they are suddenly 'queens'. Two Queens both appearing at the same time (in lore).
So researching Nerull, I find out he pas a Quadripartite deity along with Pelor, Obad-hai, and Kord. This sounds similar to our fan theories regarding 'the Dusk Lord'. Just as Nerull is a double for Myrkul, Lathander is a knock-off of Pelor. And there is another parallel I only just discovered - in Oerth mythology Nerull kills Obad-hai every winter - he literally ushers in the cold season with death. There is our connection to Winter!
What if Nerull's been holding onto to some (at least two) of the Regalia of Winter? The Raven Queen (who Nerull called Nera, although that may not be her original name) kills him, takes his stuff, and when she grasps his scythe (or whatever), she gets flooded with Auril's memories of her time as the Queen of Air & Darkness. This overwrites parts of tRQ's personality so she has some of the memories of Aurilandur, and wants her stuff. Meanwhile, another item he had teleports back to Auril*, which awakens Auril's own memories of who she is and who she is supposed to be (the Queen of Air & Darkness). Auril remembers she is a Fey Queen, and The Raven thinks she is a Queen. The two events happen nearly simultaneaously.
Now lets add in another similar goddess, who just happened to disappear right around the time tRQ showed up - Kiaransalee. Kiaransalee got brain-blasted by the epic magic that 'erased people's memory of her', including her memory of herself. She is stripped of divinity because of it, and wanders into Nerull's realm, sans memory. But she knows she is supposed to be a powerful being - she still has a great deal of power (she just can't amass any more without worshipers). She pulls a coup on Nerull and takes his stuff, and THAT is why Auril's memories stuff in the item coming flooding into her - she is a tabla rasa - a blank slate. She becomes a Queen and a goddess once again (because Kiaransalee was ALSO a Queen - they all were!)
Now, its canon that Orcus and the Raven Queen don't like each other, YET, they don't even know each other! How can a brand new goddess on the scene be one of Orcus arch-enemies? easy - because he knows who she is, and he HATES Kiaransalee, and she returns the animosity, even if she's forgotten why (she just thinks about him and is fill with loathing). It comes full-circle - two 'death queens' that Orcus hates (in canon) bitterly - one appears right around the time the other disappears.
And one last loose end - back in Threnody, when Kiaransalee ruled her own Realm, her people called her The Raven Queen. She may not have remembered her true name, but she did remember being called that once. Auril - because of her own memory problems (due to the Black Diamond) - doesn't recall Kiaransalee, but the two should know each other; both were archfey (although it might make more sense to paint tRQ as a 1/2 Dark Fey - she ruled a drow world, so she may have found it expedient to appear as a full-drow when she was their Queen, and that just 'stuck' when she became a goddess). The two may even be related. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Feb 2018 03:07:03 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 08:01:14
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And now I just found a DIRECT canon connection between Lolth and the Queen of Air & Darkness. I think its time for me to get back to figuring out the exact 'familial' relationships between all these beings.
I've not only found about 10 'extra' Seldarine in sources, but we now know that Elves ARE Fey, and that the Seldarine (primarily Corellon) created the Fey (turns out, though, he may not have created the elves - the Fey themselves probably created the Elves, hence them being a 'Creator Race'). This means that ALL fey deities should also be part of the Seldarine (some already are). Expanding the list outward further, we can include the Anti-Seldarine (Drow and Goblyn gods), and 'love interests'(like Trishina), giving us a MUCH huger pantheon than any of the human ones. 
Now I have a base for my proto-pantheon - the first 'club' of Gods. 
In the same place I found the QoA&D connection I found another interesting bit of lore, directly pertaining to other stuff I've been talking about. The Elven god Tilvenar had one of his avatars get 'corrupted', and it spread to other avatars (and they all ran amok), and he lost most of his power and prestige because of it. That's an example of what I've been taking about - how each Avatar/Aspect is also 'its own person'. If you don't reabsorb them every so often you run the risk of having them stray, but in a case like the one I just noted, reabsorbing could also spread a contagion to others.
New Analogy: Think of a God as a nice hearty stew - you scoop bowls out to serve, but people (mortals) 'flavor' their individual bowls to their own tastes (salt, pepper, string beans, spinach, whatever), but instead of anyone 'eating' the bowl of stew (that also happens LOL), all the bowls get dumped back into the pot every once in while. While this helps keep the 'taste' uniform (for the next round of bowls), it also means that the original flavor keeps getting 'watered' down (changed by all the individual changes to each bowl/avatar). And that's the risk of having the deity template (one of them, anyway). When Tilvenar tried to reign-in his one aberrant avatar, it 'infected' others.
Also in that same article (can't believe I hadn't read it before), it has an example of Malar and Talos working together against a member of the Elven Pantheon - that's more evidence that Talos was Gruumsh, me thinks, since those two have worked together before to bring down the Seldarine. Mask was also in on it, which is an odd choice, but I sometimes think Mask may be an aspect of Vhaeraun that Shar got control of (although I seem to have missed reading the novel that discusses the relationship between Mask and Shar - isn't it supposed to be mother & son, or some-such?) On the other hand, that all just makes the Lolth-is-Shar heresy all the more believable.
I am really starting to think the Seldarine was the ONLY gods, and everything else are just aspect that have split off of them.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Feb 2018 08:13:15 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 15:51:59
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| Gruumsh? Where did you come from, where did you go; where did you come from Cotton-Eyed Joe... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 22:09:30
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quote:
So you don't like 'short and simple' names? Try being a cartographer. the first time you run into a crowded area with a "Mouth 'O' Gargoyles" you'll be pulling your hair out.
Or, as always happens in real-life, a place named "Mouth 'O Gargoyles" gets shortened into "the Mouth" in common usage, unless of course "Mouth 'O Gargoyles" needs to be distinguished and disambiguated from the nearby "Mouth 'O Dragons", lol. And "the Mouth" can easily turn into "Stormbeard's Mouth" after the pirate Stormbeard hides his treasure there, or it might become "Windmouth" or "Bridgemouth" or "Stoneclaw" or "Blacknest" or whatever. "Hello, I'm looking for 'MOG' ... do you know where I can find it?"
The name of the place/thing in practice is whatever most conveniently differentiates and meaningfully identifies it in local usage. Formal titles and antiquated monikers are the stuff of historians and pedants. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Feb 2018 00:18:13 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 00:43:51
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
And where is the article. Im always on the lookout to add local elven pantheon members.
I'm sure you've read it. I knew the gods from the article itself (I just never worte them down because I had no interest in them before), but now, year later, when I read the lore in the article, i am seeing it in a whole new light (with 3e & 4e behind now, and 5e in front of us). Its the article on Elven magic in Dragon #251. For example, I never noticed beofre that lolth and the Queen of Air & Darkness have worked together before. That's kind of a big deal to me, because I've connected them together in other things (and now, YEARS later, when we know the elves ARE fey, it means the two goddesses have extremely similar origins - both 'fey' that have been booted from their original pantheon).
There's also Rhiannon from Dragon #155, who supposedly created the Fey. I am interpreting that to now mean the smallish fey, since we also now know Corellon was directly responsible for the creation of the tall Fey (Eladrin, and later, elves). This means Rhiannon either had to also be Seldarine, or is the very first archfey (Arch-archfey? lol), but probably a primal spirit who became the first archfey. In fact, I'm not seeing a real difference between most of those 'primal spirits' and the Seldarine (who are no the Fey gods, which means all of the fey deities should be Seldarine as well, in hindsight).
But after watching THIS VIDEO, I've decided to hold-off on any more specuation about the ancient elves, fey, and drow. Or anything else 'cosmological', for that matter. I have a feeling all my theories are about to get trampled on.
"We here at Hasbro are working hard to take away your personal fun. As a toy company, we feel its out obligations to inform you of the proper way to have fun."
I've never been this elated and simultaneously filled with dread at the same time before - I'll be picking that book up as soon as it comes out. (Damn them all to hell!) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Feb 2018 00:47:22 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 01:05:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
the Fey themselves probably created the Elves, hence them being a 'Creator Race')
-No, it does not have to- and likely does not- mean that! 
(lol, the eternal battle) |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 07 Feb 2018 01:06:29 |
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Worship of Gruumsh
