| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 21:18:03
quote:
Ao established rules concerning the management of the divine. For instance:
No two gods in the same pantheon could have identical portfolios.
When two gods clash, one of three results occurs:
1) One god fades from the Realms.
2) Both gods merge.
3) One (or both) god(s) alter their portfolio(s) sufficiently that both could remain in or join the Faerūnian pantheon.
These rules were more problem than they were worth, because they encouraged the gods to battle among themselves for supremacy. During the Second Sundering, Ao discarded such rules, reassigned portfolios and created more flexible rules.
Anyone know what these rules are?
Does this mean that Boccob or Odin can be worshiped in Faerun with no conflict against Mystra?
I'm baffled by the continuing changes... |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| CorellonsDevout |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 22:34:26
It is speculations (whether we agree on it or not) about the cosmos/multiverse/gods etc, like this that provides for interesting conversations, and even if the mortals of Faerun, not to mention gamers, never know the WHOLE TRUTH, it is still fun to try and flesh out. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 22:24:03
Oh, and I forgot to make my point (what else is new?), pertinent to the current conversation...
The Ubertar (a 'god', not a 'God') of Tyche got split in half somehow. This means when she was first sundered, each would have about half the power (DvR) and avatars of the original. Over time, they could have 'healed' this (regained followers/power/DvR), but personally, I don't think they ever became as powerful as they were originally. I think both would love to reabsorb the other, just for the power-boost, but they don't dare, because they would both probably cease to exist and Tyche would be back.
These are now Sphere-specific aspects of Tyche, the archtype (Estelar/Eder god). Unless it becomes a problem at some point, there is no reason for her/it to intervene and put them back together. In fact, she probably gains more power this way (because two gods can have separate DvR's, which count toward's her AtR, or 'Archtype Rank').
The only reason why I bother with all of this - which is practically useless in-game - is so that there is no 'right way' to do things. ALL lore becomes 'true', but there are layers to truth. There are culturally-specific truths, world-specific truths, Sphere-specific truths, plane-specific truths, and then there are 'Universal Truths', which mortals - and even most gods - never even know. Most wouldn't even be able to comprehend them. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 14:13:38
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I just...I just have this mental picture of all the gods and powers of magic and associated portfolios in the Realms having a meeting, and then someone pipes up, wondering why Cyric isn't here. After all, he's the god of illusion.
"We don't talk about that here."
"But he's-"
"I said, we don't talk about that here."
Because he's not.... he only thinks he is.... Because Leira was the Cyrinishad as an avatar. It is the ultimate lie played upon the buffoon, their patsy Cyric, that she and Mask faked her death, and then infected him with madness. The other "council members" don't miss Leira at the meeting because they think she's dead.... but any proposals dealing with illusion magic are sent to be reviewed (via Ao, who setup this temporary shunting) by Leira, and if she denies the change... Mystra never even sees it.
Oh, and just to note... these changes that ultimately Mystra approves are for the WEAVE... which is Toril's database of magic. So, you go to Greyspace with knowledge of a certain spell... it may not work there because the local spell database there doesn't have it listed. You take an artifact from Realmspace over to Greyspace... the database in Greyspace doesn't have "rules" for that artifact, so it simply quits functioning (if it even manages to stay cohesive).
Which THAT brings up the whole "how do spellcasters cast when they leave Toril?". Well, all these gods of magic, whenever they approve a "change" to a spell or magic item or psionic talent or new glyph, they also tell their Overpower. The Overpower sends it to the overpowers of other crystal spheres, who sends it down to the local god of magic (or council of gods of magic) who work for them and they determine if they want to add or modify their own "magic database".
Again, I can't expect anyone to ever "play this out", but you can see how this essentially does what we actually EXPECT gods to be doing. Gods are supposed to be administrating their portfolios... its a job.... But if we start thinking of the weave as less of a "power source", and instead more of a "template source for spells, items and such to which power is applied in patterns".
So, along those lines, what exactly are the shadow weave and the weave then? Well, quite simply, the shadow weave is an alternate "magic database" for realmspace. It is a magic database which has had all spells with a light descriptor removed. It is a magic database which has enhancements placed on enchantment, illusion, and necromancy magics. More importantly, it is a "magic database" in which Shar does NOT take input from any other gods (or maybe she WAS taking input from Leira and Velsharoon... we do note that Velsharoon WAS cozied up to her a bit, possibly as a spy... and those two schools are enhanced). Her control of transmutation and energy spells are reduced however (possibly Talos' work as Malyk could have aided OR further reduced her capabilities here... depending on his goals with Shar). But ultimately, it was an alternate magical database, and in order to use it without going a little mad, you had to give her your worship. Dead and wild magic areas and spells that "cut off your access to the weave" were working to remove your ability to access the "weave database" but not the power itself. Thus, shadow weave users could still function in certain situations that weave users could not. However, there were certain spells and such that might cut off access to "any database", and those would stop wielders of both methodologies.
Along these lines... what was the spellplague then? It was a corruption of the "weave database" when Shar tried to merge her "shadow weave database" over it at the moment of Mystra's death by using Cyric to "stick her with a virus". Also, Savras, Leira, and maybe even Mystra I had foreseen this coming, and they'd installed some failsafes. Shar however... she's not an elegant scripter..... her merge just fell apart, corrupting her original database AND the one she was trying to overwrite. However, the "changes to the database" were written up to Overpower Ao... who shrugged his shoulders and forwarded them on to the other overpowers. Meanwhile, the "magic database" known as the weave became so corrupt that even if someone had the juice, they couldn't apply it to a pattern... and they spent like 10 years trying to rebuild it. Ao even gave Shar enough of a chance to "prove herself capable enough".... he's not a boss who doesn't reward initiative.... but after a century of magic barely fumbling... he decided he had his own fix in mind (and it probably took him a while to look through his backups to see HOW to do his own remerge of the gods without breaking the whole crystal sphere)
Then my homebrew:
Meanwhile, Dweomerheart, which keeps a master copy of the database, got shunted over to Abeir. Its copy of the "weave database" suddenly became available to the people of Abeir, but you had to know how to access it. Also, there was some "corruption" in it... Leira, Savras, Auppenser, Velsharoon, Deneir and others... they kind of had to review and help restore the entity known as "the weave" or Mystra.
|
| Irennan |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 11:26:27
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Mystra's just one goddess. Whatever bizarre crap that's happening to her shouldn't affect worlds where Boccob, Odin, Thoth, Isis, Mathonwy, the Moon trio and so on are supreme. If anything, given that Mystra's revolving door deaths keep on wrecking magic, I'd expect to see a concentrated effort by other pantheons to quarantine the Realms.
I mean, with how often Mystra's deaths keep screwing things up, why hasn't AO simply dissolved Mystra's position and set several deities up as arbiters of the Weave, each ruling over a specific manifestation or usage of magic, like Savras and Velsharoon? A bunch of gods keeping things running is far more preferable than a greater god with no handy replacement in case of a crisis.
That's why I don't like this Multiverse thing that sets the same rules for all worlds. And why I like even less to consider events that are no more than the result of some designer deciding to blow up stuff and apply arbitrary changes, as things that could provide insight into how the logic of the Realms works. When the designers are the first to disregard continuity, why even try to assume that the event should logically fit into the context of the Realms--it was not meant to by those who developed it in the first place, it was meant to break stuff.
Lets face it, a lot of time the Realms have been changed not because that change was a good story that developed organically from the context of the setting, it was a designer deciding "yo, I don't like X thing/I don't see any value in X thing. Who cares if many others do, lets smash that" or "lets do *yet* another RSE for shock value and sales". The fact that Mystra died and came back a bazillion times doesn't say anything about her character to me, because that was an artificial device used by the designers for the reasons that I mentioned above. It wasn't meant to develop her, it wasn't meant to provide insight into her character, it was meant to usher in new editions.
In any case, as I mentioned above, Ed clarified that Mystra's 3rd "death" wasn't an actual death, and that she had a plan that time around. I still stand by what I said, tho. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 08:48:19
And yet, Tyche isn't split elsewhere.
So, as for my theory of Sphere-specific 'Ubertars': A large chunk of an Omnispheric deity* is broken-off and becomes THE version of the God for a particular Crystal Sphere (and that can have its own avatars - which can even be differently aspected). That should only work for Elder Gods or ones that have achieved an equivalent rank. They have a separate DvR for each sphere they operate in.
Multispheric powers are different. They are ascended mortals, who obviously started out in a single Crystal Sphere, and then decided to try branching out to other Spheres. This is way trickier, because a God like that only has one DvR, and has to send individual avatars to those others Spheres, which can be killed because they'd only count as demigods there. The rules were setup this way because the True Gods (Elder Gods) do not want 'newbs' horning in on what they consider 'their turf'. they consider the Great Wheel 'theirs', and any other power they consider 'vagrants' in their midst. If they God manages to get his faith up-and-running in the new sphere, he will begin to develop a separate DvR there, just as the Elder Gods do. In time, this 'Young God' may even get enough spheres under their belt to gain the respect of the 'Old Guard'. But that takes thousands of years, and gods rise and fall all the time.
*I would assume the Olympians, as well as the other MAJOR Earth pantheons - Pharonic, Norse, etc.) would be more than 'multispheric'. Being ancient powers, they don't have to follow the rules ascended mortals do (gods created after the First World was destroyed). They go to whatever Spheres they please, usually, at full power (which could drop-off rapidly if they don't establish themselves quickly) - hence, 'Omnispheric'. That's why it is pretty amazing when some pull it off... in fact, I really can't even think of any off the top of my head. I was going to say Bane, but he is in the EARLY myths regarding the Before Time, so he couldn't possibly be an ascended mortal (because there were NO mortals). Maybe some of those ones from Oerth that became 'Core' in 4e - they might count. They're at least in Nerath as well. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 07:46:34
To be fair, Tymora and Beshaba are literally opposite halves of the same deity. There's no way that Tyche's goodwill will ever work with her spite without a bunch of greater gods forcing them together. Zeus, Hades and Poseidon could probably make them do it, if the Olympians ever found out that Tymora and Beshaba were the halves of Tyche. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 07:29:47
The Avatar Trilogy describes a gathering of "all" the deities being addressed by Ao.
Tymora's Luck describes Tymora and Beshaba being so opposed and distrustful of each other that they only place in the entire cosmos they can agree to meet directly is near the base of the Infinite Spire in the Outlands - supposedly the "center" of the universe (the "center" of all universes!) and definitely a place where no magic (not even godly magic) can function at all.
Realmslore often describes certain deities working together, it seems certain that allied deities will often interact and must sometimes meet "in person". But there seems to be very little Realmslore describing conflicting or opposed deities ever agreeing to meet each other for any purpose (or with any result) other than battle. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 06:14:59
I just...I just have this mental picture of all the gods and powers of magic and associated portfolios in the Realms having a meeting, and then someone pipes up, wondering why Cyric isn't here. After all, he's the god of illusion.
"We don't talk about that here."
"But he's-"
"I said, we don't talk about that here." |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 05:29:26
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Mystra's just one goddess. Whatever bizarre crap that's happening to her shouldn't affect worlds where Boccob, Odin, Thoth, Isis, Mathonwy, the Moon trio and so on are supreme. If anything, given that Mystra's revolving door deaths keep on wrecking magic, I'd expect to see a concentrated effort by other pantheons to quarantine the Realms.
I mean, with how often Mystra's deaths keep screwing things up, why hasn't AO simply dissolved Mystra's position and set several deities up as arbiters of the Weave, each ruling over a specific manifestation or usage of magic, like Savras and Velsharoon? A bunch of gods keeping things running is far more preferable than a greater god with no handy replacement in case of a crisis.
Because basically there is a check and balance methodology to this. Mystra is the master approver to how all spells "work" let's say. However, Velsharoon can put for that he wants animate dead to work in way X and propose it up. The other gods of "necromantic magic" (say like Kiaransalee, orcus, etc...) all can approve this change. However, it has to get approval also by Mystra. If its a wizard spell change, she lets Azuth review it first (because he's a nitpicky bastard that she trusts to help her do her work) before giving her own pass on it.
Similarly, not just spells, but magic item creation formulae, how magic items work, etc... are also things that other gods can propose (for instance, Milil may propose some bardic magic change that Oghma and Finder might have to also sign off on... only to have it reviewed by Mystra).
While you don't have to "play this out", it is a handy way to explain WHY Mystra is needed (i.e. to keep the gods from willy nilly changing all magic to suit them in particular). Deneir may have purview over scrolls and runic magics similar to Azuth reviewing things, but other gods like dwarven gods may put for some new runic magic changes. Auppenser may act like Azuth on all things psionic for her, but Deep Duerra and Ilsensine also may make proposals for how to change psionics.
Regarding gem magics down in the jungles... given the ties of psionics to gems, maybe this might be a good tie in instead of the gem magic from Magic of Faerun? Given that yuan-ti are down there, psionics aren't unknown. BTW where is this reference? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 05:21:33
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
On a more serious note, if the Weave is so important, how is it every single Torillian caster who leaves Realmspace can cast spells with nary a problem? The Weave is a great big LIE. The logic breaks down the moment you look at it too closely. Mordenkainen (who casts non-Weave spells ALL the time on Toril) laughs at your silly fake Weave!
<cough> Leira <cough> |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 10 Feb 2018 : 01:03:41
quote:
Originally posted by Storyteller Hero
To follow up:
There is a different Weave in practically every plane and crystal sphere, with potentially varying methods of maintenance and differences in how the Weaves interact with spellcasting.
-Yes, but not exactly. In other worlds, there are other physics that allow magic to exist, but they don't necessarily have to have a set-up like the Forgotten Realms has, with (Mystra's) Weave. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 17:10:12
At this point? Because the players like Mystra. |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 16:15:24
Mystra's just one goddess. Whatever bizarre crap that's happening to her shouldn't affect worlds where Boccob, Odin, Thoth, Isis, Mathonwy, the Moon trio and so on are supreme. If anything, given that Mystra's revolving door deaths keep on wrecking magic, I'd expect to see a concentrated effort by other pantheons to quarantine the Realms.
I mean, with how often Mystra's deaths keep screwing things up, why hasn't AO simply dissolved Mystra's position and set several deities up as arbiters of the Weave, each ruling over a specific manifestation or usage of magic, like Savras and Velsharoon? A bunch of gods keeping things running is far more preferable than a greater god with no handy replacement in case of a crisis. |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 04:52:02
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Nope. Shadow Weave is still a part of the Weave, that got somewhat broken and (tenuously) hijacked by Shar. It does not have an independent existence.
The rest are simply different ways of using the Weave. Which is why detect/dispel/antimagic/absorption/resistance work just as well for them.
Actually, we had canon saying otherwise - Hishna and Pluma do NOT use the Weave, and rune Magic predates the Weave. Shadowmagic functions in places where Arcane magic doesn't (although they are connected somehow, but the definition of that connection has changed several times over the years).
So who's been telling you these lies? Wizards of the Coast? Its in the very name! Wizards are followers of Mystra - they can't be trusted. Basically, Mystra is only the 'Goddess of lots of deaths' LOL. She's just got the worlds greatest PR team. 
On a more serious note, if the Weave is so important, how is it every single Torillian caster who leaves Realmspace can cast spells with nary a problem? The Weave is a great big LIE. The logic breaks down the moment you look at it too closely. Mordenkainen (who casts non-Weave spells ALL the time on Toril) laughs at your silly fake Weave!
Shar 2018: "Make Faerūn Great Again!" 
To follow up:
There is a different Weave in practically every plane and crystal sphere, with potentially varying methods of maintenance and differences in how the Weaves interact with spellcasting.
Mystra only controls the Weave of Realmspace. The effects on other planes from the Spellplague is a result of interplanar connections enabling a cascading effect, similar to the waves created when dropping a stone into a body of water, or the spread of flame from an explosion.
The Weave is also not the only method to use magic. It is one of a number of different mediums through which magical energy can be drawn and "programmed" into spells.
|
| Markustay |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 03:12:25
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Nope. Shadow Weave is still a part of the Weave, that got somewhat broken and (tenuously) hijacked by Shar. It does not have an independent existence.
The rest are simply different ways of using the Weave. Which is why detect/dispel/antimagic/absorption/resistance work just as well for them.
Actually, we had canon saying otherwise - Hishna and Pluma do NOT use the Weave, and rune Magic predates the Weave. Shadowmagic functions in places where Arcane magic doesn't (although they are connected somehow, but the definition of that connection has changed several times over the years).
So who's been telling you these lies? Wizards of the Coast? Its in the very name! Wizards are followers of Mystra - they can't be trusted. Basically, Mystra is only the 'Goddess of lots of deaths' LOL. She's just got the worlds greatest PR team.
On a more serious note, if the Weave is so important, how is it every single Torillian caster who leaves Realmspace can cast spells with nary a problem? The Weave is a great big LIE. The logic breaks down the moment you look at it too closely. Mordenkainen (who casts non-Weave spells ALL the time on Toril) laughs at your silly fake Weave!
Shar 2018: "Make Faerūn Great Again!" |
| LordofBones |
Posted - 09 Feb 2018 : 02:34:06
Frankly, trying to humanize the deities just turned them all into morons. Their portfolios are their jobs and their interests, but they shouldn't explicitly define how a god thinks. The avatar crisis turned Bane into Snidely Whiplash.
Ao slapping down the entire pantheon is also nonsensical. No other campaign setting has gods desperate on faith, otherwise Nerull and Boccob would be clinging to demipower status. Off the top of my head, the whole 'gods not doing right by their worshipers' thing could have been settled by Ao giving Myrkul free reign over the souls the other gods can't be half-arsed to collect. Yondalla can't exactly complain about Myrkul using halfling souls to build an outhouse for mortal visitors if she can't be arsed to send even a minor servant to herd halfling souls from the Fugue Plane to Arborea.
I mean, as far as we know, the gods were doing their jobs well, the whole worshipers thing aside. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 04:16:22
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There was even a different sort of magic called 'gem magic' that was associated with Chult, but we unfortunately never really saw any of it (its on the back cover of the Chult sourcebook... no-one ever bothers to read those). It was cut for space (along with the other map that was supposed to show the rest of the Chultan arm).
-Gem Magic was given a brief write up in 3e Magic of Faerun, but it was kind of a let down. I am remembering something along the lines of attuning gemstones to "hold" magical spells that are cast in them. Definitely useful, but not really a new and exotic type of magic like Pluma and Hishna. |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 03:40:17
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Lurue is the font of magic in the Forgotten Realms...I wonder what would happen if SHE were slain?
The PowerPuff Girls enter Realmspace...
|
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 03:24:08
Lurue is the font of magic in the Forgotten Realms...I wonder what would happen if SHE were slain?
Is she like the Questing Beast and simply can't be found/slain no matter how hard you try? |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 03:15:17
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
She's the goddess of Arcane Magic - the kind that comes out of the Weave.
Uh, no. All magic uses the Weave unless it uses Shadow Weave (in which case it also uses the Weave, but very indirectly). Arcane, divine, innate...
quote:
In fact, she IS The Weave (so sayeth Ed).
Or sentience of the Weave (he phrased it in several ways), which is much the same most of the time (not counting deaths/shutdowns and ToT).
quote:
But we also have Shadow-Weave magic, which she has no say over, and we also had other types that didn't fall under her purview (Runic, Hishna & Plume, etc). There was even a different sort of magic called 'gem magic' that was associated with Chult, but we unfortunately never really saw any of it (its on the back cover of the Chult sourcebook... no-one ever bothers to read those). It was cut for space (along with the other map that was supposed to show the rest of the Chultan arm).
Nope. Shadow Weave is still a part of the Weave, that got somewhat broken and (tenuously) hijacked by Shar. It does not have an independent existence.
The rest are simply different ways of using the Weave. Which is why detect/dispel/antimagic/absorption/resistance work just as well for them.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Not working against her portfolio.
I mean, it was an unique, groundbreaking magical experiment - even if obviously a bad idea and predictably (though not necessarily) dangerous personally to her. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Feb 2018 : 01:33:05
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The Mystryl thing... I see that as her being caught by surprise. Karsus probably didn't reveal WHO he planned to take over until the last second (and I may be wrong there).
This would require her to act aggressively against her own portfolio. Which may be forbidden, or according to late Avatar books, simply impossible beyond "withdrawing the boon", and even then in very unambiguous circumstances.
IMO it's the best explanation why Mystra I sponsored Azuth's ascension: with different portfolio and priorities, he can watch her blind spot.
Mystra I worked even against the Magelords mostly in a very roundabout way.
Azuth dispenses the spanking when required, and hard cases were crushed. He would go spank Karsus, too. So maybe it was the whole point to begin with?
Not working against her portfolio. Essentially, everything was moving fine, and someone came in and shook all the "strings" for a few seconds while she was "distracted" doing something else. This even went so far as to destroy her and she had to reboot into another being, while the person who thought he could just suddenly jump from divine rank 0 to some huge divine rank had their spell effectively screw them because he pulled the underpinnings from beneath himself mid-transformation. So, he died too (and turned to "god stone") and magic went somewhat uncontrolled until the new Mystra could take over (and we've all wondered if that new Mystra wasn't already divine in some sort (or even a "construct"), so maybe that's why she was able to adapt quickly). |
| Storyteller Hero |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 22:59:54
Mystra may have foreseen the rise of Cyric or worse, and sacrificed herself during the Time of Troubles in order to set events in motion that would prevent the worst case scenario.
If the future is malleable, and the past can be altered, then to be the Arbiter of Time means to see the possibilities of choice.
|
| Ayrik |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 21:51:22
There was a "hidden" conspiracy and destiny. Mystra had to die. It was one of the "predetermined" outcomes of the 1E-to-2E transition (meant to the the Realms fluff explaining "new" 2E magic rule crunch). It needed a story and so it was given a story within the context of a larger set of stories. The "conspirators" were the designers and authors at TSR/WotC. |
| Balmar Foghaven |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 16:29:17
I think I'll have to agree. It just seems too convenient to the plot that Mystra couldn't have foreseen such events. It must be, therefore, that there was some sort of hidden conspiracy - or destiny - involved. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 09:11:07
Mystra's confrontation with Helm was in the Avatar trilogy. An important premise in the trilogy was that the deities had become "blinded" by their own portfolios, unable (or at least unwilling) to perceive or think or act outside the limits and special interests of these portfolios. The gods and goddesses were exiled to the Realms as a punishment/lesson meant to broaden their perspectives and correct their ways, lol.
Mystra challenged Helm, thereby also challenging Ao's authority. Rather stupidly, I think, having already witnessed Tyr being blinded by Ao after daring to issue a verbal challenge about Ao's "injustice".
Mystra - like all the other avatars - was desperate to reclaim her power, and she thought she had access to "arcane" or "secret" knowledge/power/status which made her an exception and her actions acceptable.
She was mistaken. She was arrogant. She defied Ao's will. She was warned, then she was punished. No intrigue here.
Ao is the overgod in Realmslore. The supreme being. The one ultimate and absolute power over all other power.
Ao's proclamations and rules and decrees don't have to be "fair", "just", "popular", or even "sane".
He doesn't have to explain anything or accept any compromises. He's the boss. You don't like it, you get fired.
There's been some speculation in past scrolls about Mystra choosing to play this role and "fulfil her fate" so that Midnight could ascend. Mystra had cached some of her power away (in Midnight, in her Chosens, in other places) before the Time of Troubles. And Mystra would have be in a unique position to divine the future, plus she would be uniquely motivated to not be slain (disrupting the Weave and the Realms) like her predecessor was.
But Mystra's primary motivations and fatal results would be the same whether she "chose" to defy Ao or "was fated" to defy Ao. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 08:51:04
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The Mystryl thing... I see that as her being caught by surprise. Karsus probably didn't reveal WHO he planned to take over until the last second (and I may be wrong there).
This would require her to act aggressively against her own portfolio. Which may be forbidden, or according to late Avatar books, simply impossible beyond "withdrawing the boon", and even then in very unambiguous circumstances.
IMO it's the best explanation why Mystra I sponsored Azuth's ascension: with different portfolio and priorities, he can watch her blind spot.
Mystra I worked even against the Magelords mostly in a very roundabout way.
Azuth dispenses the spanking when required, and hard cases were crushed. He would go spank Karsus, too. So maybe it was the whole point to begin with?
quote:
The Mystra walking up to Helm. Yeah, EITHER she was blatantly stupid OR there was some kind of underlying intrigue
Or a compulsion. Or desperation. Or... Either way, it's established that as The Avatars they not only were mostly reduced to mortal capabilities, but at least some were adversely affected by the merging and clearly didn't have all the marbles with them.
Let's look at the others. Waukeen tried a wild gamble. Clangeddin became some sort of WAAAGH hivemind. Labelas Enoreth gone cackling mad - despite him being the most procrastinating god in the pantheon plagued with procrastination and his host Vartan Hai Sylvar being a quite reasonable fellow - extremely so, considering he's a Gold elf after all. |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 03:56:35
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The Mystryl thing... I see that as her being caught by surprise. Karsus probably didn't reveal WHO he planned to take over until the last second (and I may be wrong there).
-If I am remembering correctly, it was retconned or told with different details at least once, possibly more. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 02:05:01
Mystra is arguably (or at least visibly) the single most powerful deity within the Faerunian pantheon. No lesser being would seem as "all-powerfully important" in grand Realms-altering (even cosmos-altering) events. So Mystra has been the most obvious choice for authors who want to convey the grand scope of things which cascade down from the very "top" tier. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 06 Feb 2018 : 00:02:31
I guess Mystra the first made that stupidity because she believed that, being Ao's favorite, she would have it easy. Helm, however, is bound to its duty to the extreme... |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 05 Feb 2018 : 21:00:30
quote:
Originally posted by Balmar Foghaven
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ya know, for a 'supreme goddess' of just about anything, she sure is stupid, and she sure does DIE a lot.
Yeeeaaahh... I feel like they handled her very poorly from the beginning. I'm sure there had to be a better way for Mystryl to stop Karsus than "let's end all magic and myself temporarily". Also second Mystra blatantly walking up to Helm during ToT was just asking to be killed.
The Mystryl thing... I see that as her being caught by surprise. Karsus probably didn't reveal WHO he planned to take over until the last second (and I may be wrong there).
The Mystra walking up to Helm. Yeah, EITHER she was blatantly stupid OR there was some kind of underlying intrigue that would involve raising up a patsy in her place (Midnight) to die at the hands of another patsy (Cyric) a mere 27 years later. They simply played up the insanity of her actions, because as gods they figured their mortals would believe it. You know, like later Tyr actually getting in a fight with Heimda... errr Helm over a girl and killing him. Or the supposed god of lies being infected with his own lie and going mad. Man what gods and/or goddesses might have been involved with these intrigues and lies.... it would almost be like there would have to be some kind of god of prescience that would tell them what's going to happen..... and maybe some other god with some kind of focus on mental manipulation.... |
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