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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 21:18:03
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quote:
Ao established rules concerning the management of the divine. For instance:
No two gods in the same pantheon could have identical portfolios.
When two gods clash, one of three results occurs:
1) One god fades from the Realms.
2) Both gods merge.
3) One (or both) god(s) alter their portfolio(s) sufficiently that both could remain in or join the Faerūnian pantheon.
These rules were more problem than they were worth, because they encouraged the gods to battle among themselves for supremacy. During the Second Sundering, Ao discarded such rules, reassigned portfolios and created more flexible rules.
Anyone know what these rules are?
Does this mean that Boccob or Odin can be worshiped in Faerun with no conflict against Mystra?
I'm baffled by the continuing changes...
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 21:34:38
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| They aren't specified. However, considering how they dealt with old gods coming back, to me it seems that he allowed a certain degree of overlapping by splitting large portfolios into smaller parts. For example, Myrkul is now the god of death, while Bhaal the god of murder, Kelemvor deity of the dead. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 22:00:34
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| Yeah, based on their portfolios, it seems that the gods, while not having the exact same portfolio, share aspects of it, kind of like Mystra, Azuth, and Sevras. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 22:02:26
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I understand the desire to have the gods not constantly being in the forefront, but relaxing a set of rules IMO wouldn't cause less conflicts, it would cause more. Just because they are no longer bring encouraged to fight for portfolios doesn't mean they won't. I, too, would like to know if there's an established system now should a god kill another - would the victor claim the spoils? Or is it simply an unwritten rule now that gods just can no longer fight...
I mean, just cause Myrkul and Kelemvor get to share the "death" domains doesn't mean Myrkul will necessarily be pleased about it. I would see him constantly plotting to unify his power. |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 22:31:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Balmar Foghaven
I understand the desire to have the gods not constantly being in the forefront, but relaxing a set of rules IMO wouldn't cause less conflicts, it would cause more. Just because they are no longer bring encouraged to fight for portfolios doesn't mean they won't. I, too, would like to know if there's an established system now should a god kill another - would the victor claim the spoils? Or is it simply an unwritten rule now that gods just can no longer fight...
I mean, just cause Myrkul and Kelemvor get to share the "death" domains doesn't mean Myrkul will necessarily be pleased about it. I would see him constantly plotting to unify his power.
To me it seems that Ao has set the portfolios in stone (quite literally) therefore making any eventual fights over that pointless. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 22:42:24
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I was looking through the SCAG to see if I could find more on this, but there wasn't much. I did find this in regards to new deities:
"The burgeoning worship of a new deity is rarely a concern to the gods of the Faerunian pantheon, and the people who revere those deities, except when the newcomer's area directly compete with that of an established deity. The methods of resolving such conflicts range from friendly dueling festivals or rites meant to emphasize the glory of one god over another, to campaigns of outright religious bloodshed" (pg 20).
This is only in regards to new deities, however. For established ones (either native or those who immigrated a long time ago), or those recently returned (like Myrkul), I think it's what Irennan said. Ao rewrote the Tablets, which is why the gods were trying to figure out what was going on during the Second Sundering. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 23:19:30
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What Irennan and Corellon said, plus a new politic of no intervention in mortal affairs. Citing a Gen Con stuffs I found here:
AO would once again forge the Tablets of Fate, inscribing the names and purposes of the gods he chose to serve in a new, inclusive divine reality, free of the petty schemes of unchecked gods.
After the Sundering, Gods are coming back. Which ones? Whichever ones you want. Some of them. All of them.
The Gods are going to take on a much less surface role in FR Next. They will recede into the background, continuing to grant spells but interfering far less in the affairs of mortals.
So, while the overlapping portfolios seems to be a lesser concern now, gods seem to be more restricted than ever. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 23 Jan 2018 23:20:57 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 23:43:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
What Irennan and Corellon said, plus a new politic of no intervention in mortal affairs. Citing a Gen Con stuffs I found here:
AO would once again forge the Tablets of Fate, inscribing the names and purposes of the gods he chose to serve in a new, inclusive divine reality, free of the petty schemes of unchecked gods.
After the Sundering, Gods are coming back. Which ones? Whichever ones you want. Some of them. All of them.
The Gods are going to take on a much less surface role in FR Next. They will recede into the background, continuing to grant spells but interfering far less in the affairs of mortals.
So, while the overlapping portfolios seems to be a lesser concern now, gods seem to be more restricted than ever.
I think that stuff got lost on the way since 2012, tho. Their first campaign literally was a goddess being directly summoned on Toril. Some other gods remained quite present as well (even tho I give them that they haven't written any "divine conflict" plot up to now). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 23:46:21
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Wait a few years and someone else will write something different. Thats how that works. Just ignore whatever comes out of WotC and have fun.
But if you want a more mechanical answer, than its simple: That is basically the gist of it. The full extent of the 'cosmic laws' (if written in a moral tongue) go on for some forty-six trillion pages. We really can't fathom the thousands upon thousands of slight nuances that differentiate this from that, but Gods can. There are tons of 'qualifiers' we don't see, that need to be assumed are there. Like, No two deities can hold say over the same portfolio at the same level of power within the same sphere of influence. In other words, they can't do that within the same region governed by a specific portfolio (unless overlap of regions are occurring), and also among the same group (see statement just before this one). So if the two gods are, lets say, in Faerūn and Kara-Tur, no problem. If the Two gods are both within Faerūn, but one is in the old empires and part of a separate pantheon (appeal to different groups of people), no problem. If the two gods are in the same region with the same exact worshipers, THEN, they cannot co-exist in that fashion. One must be subordinate to the other. In a different geographic region, it may be the other way around (one must defer to the other, depending upon where the situation arose).
This is just to stop 'God Wars', at least on a local level. Gods from different pantheons (regions and/or different ethnic groups) that have a dispute have to go to an arbitrator (in our case, Ao). Thus, problems only arise when two powers within the same pantheon are 'at war'. Not all worlds have this, BTW - its peculiar to The Forgotten Realms (probably due to the multispheric nature of our world, and the plethora of gods that come and go). On most worlds, there is only one, or just a handful, of pantheons, and this sort of thing had sorted itself out millennia ago.
Ordinarily, a pantheon = region, and its simple. But when ethnic groups begin to merge together (either because of mortal wars, or just normal cultural osmosis), you can have two pantheons occupying the same physical space on a Prime Material world, and thus, this rules need to be applied. Over time, the two groups will merge into one (if of the same race, otherwise, perhaps not) and one unified pantheon will emerge.
Non-human pantheons overlapping with human ones (and other non-human ones) is a prime example of how pantheons aren't actually 'regional' - they are group-specific. This doesn't show as much among human pantheons, which do tend to be regional in nature. Yet, we see those same pantheons overlapping with the non-human ones all the time, with nary a problem, and even with them having many portfolios in-common.
And this does NOT 'break the rules' as provided, either. The qualifiers are already there - we see them all the time, we just don't notice or acknowledge them. Mystra is the god of magic of Realmspace. Corellon is the god of magic among elves. Isis was the goddess of magic of the Mulan.
Which means, the rules are irrelevant. Any halfway decent infernal lawyer can get you out of trouble, just by providing the qualifiers. It can be as small a group as a 'cult'
Odin is the 'God of Rune Magic'. Orcus is the 'God of Undead' among idiots who worship him. The qualifier can even be that vague, which is why I say, its all irrelevant. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jan 2018 23:52:49 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 23:52:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
What Irennan and Corellon said, plus a new politic of no intervention in mortal affairs. Citing a Gen Con stuffs I found here:
AO would once again forge the Tablets of Fate, inscribing the names and purposes of the gods he chose to serve in a new, inclusive divine reality, free of the petty schemes of unchecked gods.
After the Sundering, Gods are coming back. Which ones? Whichever ones you want. Some of them. All of them.
The Gods are going to take on a much less surface role in FR Next. They will recede into the background, continuing to grant spells but interfering far less in the affairs of mortals.
So, while the overlapping portfolios seems to be a lesser concern now, gods seem to be more restricted than ever.
In some ways they are restricted, to prevent major RSEs from happening (which ironically led to the RSE known as the Second Sundering). Gods can and do still appear, but they are more likely to interact via visions, signs (like their symbol appearing), and speak more vaguely, rather than showing up for tea and saying, "you need to do this". The SCAG describes them as being "quieter". The level of this is still going to vary from deity to deity, I think.
The gods also remain a huge part of the setting, they're just, well, "quieter" LOL. And all of them are back. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 23:54:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I think that stuff got lost on the way since 2012, tho. Their first campaign literally was a goddess being directly summoned on Toril. Some other gods remained quite present as well (even tho I give them that they haven't written any "divine conflict" plot up to now).
But that was the only one. And just, its a god trying to break that rule (in an adventure that have worked better for Eberron or Dragonlance that it did for the Realms). And, in the end it was thwarted.
The gods are present. They need to be. AO would be a d*ck if he didn't allow some sort of presence when he enforced that "you need mortal's faith or you die" law. But it seems that they are really limited in scope. For instance, in Death Masks (canonically, the last novel), its mentioned that Resurrection just don't work as it did before. The gods don't concede that spell to anyone anymore (so, you cannot buy a res spell with money, like those NPCs from 3e novels). Basically a player capable of casting Resurrection in the post-Sundering Realms is a truly special character. I like that approach. Players should be the focus of a campaign, not the NPCs.
Also, in Tomb of Annihilation, despite the peril (an atropal becoming a new god by stealing souls of mortals), no god intervened. If PCs don't fix that, nobody will. Something similar happens with Tiamat's adventures. She was the only one breaking the rules there.
The gods are still present to remind mortals they still exists (because they need to eat faith), but now they just don't interfere anymore. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 23 Jan 2018 23:58:45 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 23:55:55
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Gods have to follow Star Trek's 'Prime Directive'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 00:00:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
But that was the only one. And just, its a god trying to break that rule (in an adventure that have worked better for Eberron or Dragonlance that it did for the Realms). And, in the end it was thwarted.
The gods are present. They need to be. AO would be a d*ck if he didn't allow some sort of presence when he enforced that "you need mortal's faith or you die" law. But it seems that they are really limited in scope. For instance, in Death Masks (canonically, the last novel), its mentioned that Resurrection just don't work as it did before. The gods don't concede that spell to anyone anymore (so, you cannot buy a res spell with money, like those NPCs from 3e novels). Basically a player capable of casting Resurrection in the post-Sundering Realms is a truly special character. I like that approach. Players should be the focus of a campaign, not the NPCs.
Also, in Tomb of Annihilation, despite the peril (an atropal becoming a new god by stealing souls of mortals), no god intervened. If PCs don't fix that, nobody will. Something similar happens with Tiamat's adventures. She was the only one breaking the rules there.
The gods are still present to remind mortals they still exists (because they need to eat faith), but now they just don't interfere anymore.
I think that the resurrection thing was there because Ed was tasked with foreshadowing ToA (and SKT as well). But you're right that gods don't solve problems personally (even tho that didn't happen in previous editions either). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 00:12:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I think that the resurrection thing was there because Ed was tasked with foreshadowing ToA (and SKT as well). But you're right that gods don't solve problems personally (even tho that didn't happen in previous editions either).
Perhaps not in adventures, but in novels? If a god was doing some stuff, another appeared to thwart him or to gain something. I'm sure there are a LOT of "god" novels in 2e/3e, for instance. I guess people got over-saturated of the gods because of that. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 00:55:52
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I'm one of the few people who liked the involvement of the gods XD.
I think, in Death Masks, along with what Irennan said, the gods are still trying to figure out exactly what happened. The Sundering happened recently, and the gods have to learn how to "settle in" their new roles/positions. They're probably learning their limitations as much as their followers are. For the ToA, they probably designed it that way so players had to do it, for the sake of the adventure. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 01:19:50
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Its not that I don't like their involvement.
I don't like to KNOW their involvement. In other words, I like things 'mysterious', and 2e put an end to all that with the in-your-face ToT. All the mystery got sucked right out of the cosmology of the setting. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 01:46:42
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| I like some mystery (a god sitting down to tea with you ruins that), but I like to KNOW they're involved. An avatar can appear to its followers and still maintain a sense of awe and mysterious, depending on its actions/what it says. I actually enjoyed having the gods as characters in the Avatar books, for example. That said, I realize how tricky it is to strike the balance between involvement and maintaining mystery, and making the gods "too human", so to speak. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2018 : 03:25:55
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On page 8 of the Deities and Demigods (AD&D) Gods ALL have the following abilities:
Command: as the spell, but lasting 2 rounds for Lesser Gods and 3 rounds for Greater Gods. There is no Saving Throw against this divine ability.
Geas: as the spell, but with 9" range.
Quest: as the spell, but with a 9" range. There is no saving throw.
With those three abilities right there, a God has all he needs to be Mysterious. He can stand back in the crowd and unleash...sending adventurers on grand adventures.
I don't like my Gods to meddle directly in the affairs of mortals because if one does, then another has the "obligation" to do so also to counter-balance things.
That is what they have Clerics for anyway!
So I guess my earlier conversation about how a Cleric of Odin would do in Faerun is now answered: he would do just dandy. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Delnyn
Senior Scribe
USA
955 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 01:01:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Its not that I don't like their involvement.
I don't like to KNOW their involvement. In other words, I like things 'mysterious', and 2e put an end to all that with the in-your-face ToT. All the mystery got sucked right out of the cosmology of the setting.
On the bright side, 5ed sounds quite the opposite of in-your-face Time of Troubles. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2018 : 00:12:14
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So, it looks like I may just make Mystra "A" god of Magic instead of THE god of magic.
I'd rather have the god Lurue be THE god of magic actually. Not so much concerned with mortal worshipers; but the literal font of magic.
Not sure how to go with this really... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2018 : 00:19:58
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| Mystra technically is THE goddes as of magic though, as she is part of the Weave. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2018 : 00:29:21
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Mystra technically is THE goddes as of magic though, as she is part of the Weave.
She is part of what CONTROLS magic...magic exists even when she is dead. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2018 : 01:37:07
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Yeah, that one. I would consider Lurue THE goddess of magic (as she is Raw Magic, as I understand), and Mystra the goddess of the Weave (the "system" that controls the use of magic). While both are essential to the use of magic in the Realms, only Lurue seems vital, as the post-Spellplague Realms showed us.
While other gods of magic represent some other manifestations of magic. I see Corellon as the god of using magic artistically (or at least, the 4e iteration of Corellon described him as such), Azuth is the god of the guys that use magic in a scientifically way (wizards), Velsharoon is the god of those who like zombies, etc. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
Edited by - Zeromaru X on 31 Jan 2018 01:38:29 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2018 : 02:50:58
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Corellon is (or was originally, at least) also the god of elven high magic. But yeah, I can see him being the god of the artistic use of magic (the SCAG describes him as being the god of "elves, magic, poetry, ridership, and warcraft").
Azuth represents the study of magic (so yes, those who use it scientifically). Even though magic was still usable without Mystra, the SCAG has her as *the* goddess of magic again: "Mystra is the goddess of magic, and with that, the goddess of possibilities...Mystra is the essential force that makes all spell-casting possible. She provides and tends the Weave, the conduit through which mortal spellcasters and magical crafters can safely access the raw force of magic". (Pg 35) |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2018 : 03:16:38
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| Well and good that they wrote her that way...still using Lurue as the God of Magical Energy then...and Mystra would be her "helper" in a sense by allowing others to use magic in a controlled way. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2476 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2018 : 07:54:05
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
the SCAG has her as *the* goddess of magic again: "Mystra is the goddess of magic, and with that, the goddess of possibilities...Mystra is the essential force that makes all spell-casting possible. She provides and tends the Weave, the conduit through which mortal spellcasters and magical crafters can safely access the raw force of magic". (Pg 35)
This is was her priesthood want us to believe. An illuminati plot that wants to handwave the past 100 years of people doing magic safely without Mystra's aid. (?) |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2018 : 09:12:45
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She's the goddess of Arcane Magic - the kind that comes out of the Weave. In fact, she IS The Weave (so sayeth Ed).
But we also have Shadow-Weave magic, which she has no say over, and we also had other types that didn't fall under her purview (Runic, Hishna & Plume, etc). There was even a different sort of magic called 'gem magic' that was associated with Chult, but we unfortunately never really saw any of it (its on the back cover of the Chult sourcebook... no-one ever bothers to read those). It was cut for space (along with the other map that was supposed to show the rest of the Chultan arm).
ANYHOW, my point is that in spite of her clergy preaching that she was 'the Goddess of ALL magic", we've known that to be a bold-face lie for quite some time. Cyric was stupid enough to believe it, but in time, even he learned it wasn't true. She can only 'shut down' magic derived from the Weave, which is really her ONLY portfolio (but still an insanely OP one). And other aspect of magic - especially RAW, which is the type that goes into the Weave - is handled by other gods. Its like the difference between 'crude oil' and refined kerosene (thats actually a very good analogy, when you think about the way Raw Magic has been described). So Mystra is just a cross between the AI of a mainframe and a refinery. Everything else is just the hype of her clergy (she's got GREAT PR). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Feb 2018 00:13:30 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2018 : 23:51:03
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| I kind of look at it as, if magic (or arcane magic, if you want to be precise) were a pantheon, Mystra would be the "head" of that pantheon, with the other "magic gods" governing other aspects of magic. The Spellplague proved we can have magic without Mystra, but now that Mystra has returned, she has regained her "position as the head of the magic pantheon", so to speak. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2018 : 00:12:33
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Ya know, for a 'supreme goddess' of just about anything, she sure is stupid, and she sure does DIE a lot.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2018 : 00:36:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
the SCAG has her as *the* goddess of magic again: "Mystra is the goddess of magic, and with that, the goddess of possibilities...Mystra is the essential force that makes all spell-casting possible. She provides and tends the Weave, the conduit through which mortal spellcasters and magical crafters can safely access the raw force of magic". (Pg 35)
This is was her priesthood want us to believe. An illuminati plot that wants to handwave the past 100 years of people doing magic safely without Mystra's aid. (?)
That was handled by Ed, tho, as he said that both Mystra and the Weave were still there during the Spellplague. While I agree with the sentiment here, the Spellplague was meant to prove that by the designers, but considering the recent developments, it really didn't.
As for me, I have both Mystra and certain other deities as sentient manifestations of forces/laws of nature (or of cosmic forces/laws, whatever). I really like this concept of a sentient weave of magic that connects everything (even tho I altered it and spun it in a different way), so I wanted to keep a deity of all magic in my FR. Those gods, however, truly are bound by their own nature, they cannot be killed, etc (unlike other deities, who are much more human-like).
They can however manifest avatars, and those can be influenced by interactions and experiences, and even become their own entity. The main deity can take in consideration the perspective of their avatar when taking some decision, but they, at their core, remain the embodiment of the force that they represent. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 01 Feb 2018 00:39:10 |
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe
Canada
124 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2018 : 18:46:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ya know, for a 'supreme goddess' of just about anything, she sure is stupid, and she sure does DIE a lot.
Yeeeaaahh... I feel like they handled her very poorly from the beginning. I'm sure there had to be a better way for Mystryl to stop Karsus than "let's end all magic and myself temporarily". Also second Mystra blatantly walking up to Helm during ToT was just asking to be killed. |
"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline." |
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Ao's Rules
