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Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Anyone think the Ship of Lolth (which is Canon) would be something Lolth would rebuild even if it were destroyed by adventurers?

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Originally posted by sleyvas

The Great Ocean might be Karpri or the other water world in realmspace. I think Karpri is the one with tons of insects living amongst vines.

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Originally posted by Lord Karsus


-Mindflayers =/= Far Realms stuff, but the Mindflayer variants in the Ilithiad (one of the coolest sourcebooks)

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and Lords of Madness were great. Sometimes more tentacles is cool.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

The Great Ocean might be Karpri or the other water world in realmspace. I think Karpri is the one with tons of insects living amongst vines.

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Originally posted by TBeholder


I wonder whether Bruce Cordell tired of hivemind editing or of "Uh... I know! We need more tentacles! Let's just slap tentacles on common critters now! Do you guys watch hentai?" thing.
But either way, this shows the trend: from Monstrous Arcana to "hurr, more tentacles".

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Each doorway is actually a gateway to an alternate world on the Prime Material Plane. None of these worlds is the original campaign of the PCs, but since the gates open to the Prime Material Plane...

A. The Kingdom of Caer Sidi: The doorway looks out from the edge of a thickly overgrown garden of drooping weeds and gnarled, rotting, mildewed trees. Through the trees, the beginnings of a neatly manicured lawn can be seen approximately 200 feet away. The grass extends as far as the eye can see and is dotted with orderly copses and bright flowerbeds. About a quarter of a mile away atop a small hill stands a small castle. Its tall turrets showing fluttering pennons in the light breeze. Its walls are ivory in shadow and glisten slightly with rainbow colors when the light strikes. Many windows pierce the upper stories, making the structure seem lacy thin. An artificial twilight seems to hang over the land and the sun is apparently always behind a dark bank of clouds.

This is the Kingdom of Caer Sidi. The land is ruled by a group of elves, neutral (with evil tendencies) in alignment. Calling themselves the pharisees, they form the ruling class. Other creatures in the land include their occasional allies (hobgoblins, gnomes, and trolls), their servants and slaves (dwarves, orcs, gnomes, and kobolds), and all manner of wild, mythological beasts (unicorns, griffons, dragons, manticores, and so forth).

The pharisees are highly self-oriented and sophisticated. This will often cause them to do what might be seen as evil acts for the “good of all” (themselves in particular). They will, when needed, ally with the evil races to protect their kingdom and position. Privately, they practice and relish emotion but never develop a deep attachment for any individual thing or creature. They are often seen as haughty and cold.

Due to some unknown power of the land, the pharisees cannot stand the touch of iron or steel. Any of those elves struck by a cutting weapon of iron or steel will suffer 1-6 points of damage in addition to the normal weapon damage. The elves also do not like to handle silver, although this does not burn them, as does iron or steel. Because of this, all armor, weapons, and necessary metal goods are made of copper, brass, bronze, or other alloys with a strength equal to steel. The majority of this work is done by dwarven or goblin slaves, and is all performed with great craftsmanship.

The Kingdom is ruled by Duke Alfric, an elven (pharisee) Fighter/ Magic-User, and his consort Meriven (a 14th level elven Thief) from their castle on the hill. With them abide 70 elven Fighters of levels 1-6. Alfric also maintains armies on campaign, watching his dubious allies.

B. The Frozen Lands: This doorway/gate looks out the entrance of a cave. The gate appears to be about twenty feet inside the cave, the entrance of which is about 10 feet wide. Through that opening can be seen a raging snowstorm which intermittently breaks to reveal windswept rocks and looming mountains. The cave itself is dark, and little can be seen of it other than the floor (which is covered by snow and ice).

This is one of Lolth’s more successful campaigns. Situated at the end of a frozen mountain chain hundreds of miles long, Lolth has been using this area as a base before sending her armies to conquer the warmer human lands beyond. Stockades, where Lolth’s creatures reside, are each separated by one day’s march through the mountains, progressively closer to the lands that Lolth wishes to conquer. These forts provide food and shelter for her troops en route to the border.

If the PCs enter this land, they immediately notice that the temperature is well below freezing and the air is further chilled by a 30 mph wind. Travel without adequate clothing or magical protection from the elements will result in death from exposure within 12 hours. In a snowbank just inside the cave, however, are hidden bundles of fur-lined clothing, food, wood, and mountain gear, which the party may find and use.

Travel by night is impossible due to the howling winds, dangerous paths, crevasses, avalanches, and monsters. Dawn arrives six hours after the party enters through the gate, at which time the storm breaks. A clear but difficult pathway winds from the cave to a fort in a valley 6 miles away. Thereafter, forts are located every 5 miles along the path. The border of the human lands is 75 miles away. Each fort has in its treasury 20-200 sp, 20-80 ep, and 10-30 gp per occupant, plus a ring of warmth and 2-8 potions from the following list: extra healing, healing, human control, white dragon control.

Those forts closest to the gate are sparsely populated, as Lolth has a firm control over this area. There are typically a few bugbears and ogres, possibly with a frost giant commander. These creatures will generally not venture outside the fort. All forts are stocked with ample supplies of food and clothing. Forts closer to the borderlands hold more and more troops as Lolth prepares for her attack.

C. The Great Ocean: The doorway is set on a white, sandy beach broken by grotesque outcroppings of volcanic rock. One or two purple-black tulip-like flowers sprout from the base of these rocks. The sky is saffron yellow and the sun is a pale bright blue; a pink ocean 100 feet away washes gently over the sand. To the left and right, along the curve of the land, can be seen the silhouettes of palm-like trees. This gate is actually an island 5 miles in diameter, one of the few land areas on a planet of ocean.

The great Ocean ranges for thousands of miles and varies from tropical conditions (like those found here) to arctic (at its extremes). Here, Lolth has been recruiting ixitxchitl, kopoacinth, lacedon, and morkoths. She hopes to use these in her campaign to defeat the dominant human race, a migratory sea people. These humans sail the Ocean in great catamarans to carry the trade of their vast mercantile empire from island city to island city.

D. The Black Fen: Beyond the gate is a desolate swamp, overgrown with rank grasses, shadowed by great cypress trees, and spotted with pools of muck. The trees are overgrown with Spanish moss and strangling vines; decayed vegetation covers patches of open ground. Plant growth is lush, but everything has an unwholesome grayish color to it; the sky is blue.

This swamp extends for more than 100 miles in all directions and is ringed by a wall of mountains. Lolth has used this territory as a breeding ground for some of her creatures ever since she won the land from the humans who once held it. What humans remain have been reduced to a savage existence in the mountains, entering only
the fringes of the swamp.

E. The Labyrinth of Arachne: Through this doorway the party will see a 100-foot-square chamber. The door opens by the left corner of one wall; there are five doorways on the opposite wall. The entire chamber is lit by glowing purple fungi that cling to the walls. The floor is sandy, littered with twigs, rags, and bits of string. Thirty feet to the right of the gate is the dried corpse of a woman.

This area is used by Lolth as her breeding ground for spiders of all sorts. The five doors lead to tunnels and passages that twist and interconnect to form a maze of chambers, caverns, rooms, tunnels, corridors, and dead ends. These extend for miles underground, and there is no known exit to the surface of this world. The entire area is infested with spiders. To feed these creatures, Lolth regularly forces captives into the labyrinth, whom the spiders track down and kill. Lolth summons the most powerful of the spiders to serve in her armies.

The few captive who have managed to escape death have formed themselves into small tribal societies. These are clothed only in rags, but are armed with crude stones and bone weapons and spider-silk nets. All the survivors are now neutral, regardless of their former alignments. They have no hope of escape and merely try to survive. They will attempt to kill anything that might be a source of food or equipment.

F. Maldev: Looking through the gate, the PCs see that somehow things do not look quite right. The gate looks out upon a mountain setting, but the mountains are too tall and sharply pointed to be real. The sky is bluish-purple and partly overcast; the sun is almost below the tops of the mountains. What stars are out are much larger than normal, almost like small moons. There are two prominent mountain peaks, one a mile away and the other about six miles distant. Between these, in what appears to be a pass, is a wooden palisaded fort. Approximately three-quarters of a mile beyond the fort is another stockade, similar in appearance. At the foot of the far mountain is a great stone fortress with great fires shining from one point in its wall. Many smaller fires dot the plain of the pass, and at times wide sections of the ground seem to ripple from the movements of troops.

This mountain pass leads to Maldev, the last kingdom of the mountain dwarves in this world. The fortress under attack is Kandelspire, the gate to the kingdom of Maldev. Lolth has just begun what she hopes to be her final attack on the great fortress. For this battle she has assembled the following troops:

8,000 gnolls
2,000 bugbears
150 ogres
30 hill giants
20 trolls
10 perytons
6 umber hulks
1 red dragon (HD 11, hp 77)

The following defenders are in the fortress:

4,000 dwarves
500 humans
100 brown bears
10 cave bears
10 werebears
50 giant badgers
5 pegasi

Lolth expects to receive further reinforcements soon, but the dwarves of Maldev do not expect any further aid.

The two wooden forts are also occupied and must be passed to reach the fortress. The stockade closest to the gate is manned by Lolth’s creatures (300 gnolls, 20 bugbears, two ogres, and one Type IV demon). These forces might be fooled into thinking that the characters have been sent by Lolth to aid in the battle. The more distant fort holds 500 dwarves, cut off from the rest of their army. It was bypassed in the first attack, to be destroyed later by the expected reinforcements. The dwarves will be suspicious of strangers approaching the fort unless a dwarf is with the party.

G. The Nightworld of Vlad Tolenkov: This gate opens into a gloomy castle courtyard, old and run down, cluttered with a scattering of broken stones and sickly-looking weeds and bushes. It is night; the starlight poorly illuminates the expanse of the courtyard, in the center of which stands an old fountain, dry and leaf-filled. In the right wall, terraced steps lead up to a pair of tarnished bronze doors set in an ornately carved arch. In the left wall is an opening 20 feet wide and 15 feet high, sloping down and away from the courtyard. Near the tops of the walls are many small windows.

This is the castle of Vlad Tolenkov, a 15th level Magic-User vampire. Lolth has recently enlisted Vlad to her side, and he is now gathering forces to this area. These are primarily made up of undead, which are very successful in this land of perpetual night. This world has no sun; heat and plants are sustained only by powerful ancient magic.

With the forces he has been gathering, Vlad does not intend to conquer the human lands, but rather to harass and disrupt trade in the area, in preparation for a greater future assault by Lolth. Therefore, security in the area is lax. Few creatures live in the castle with Vlad, primarily ghouls and ghasts who feed on his drained victims.

H. Lolth’s Prison: This gate looks out across a small desert plain. Although the land is brightly lit, small stars glow on the horizon. Five small suns shine overhead, ranging in color from red to white; the sky is black. Standing about 200 yards away is a giant-sized figure, bone white in color, about 30 feet tall. On the ground behind it sits an iron cage holding a man. There are no other signs of life.

This is a miniature, flat world; it is circular, with a diameter of 2,000 yards. Encapsulated in a force field dome which traps its atmosphere inside, the world has normal gravity, maintained by an unknown magic. Lolth uses this world, which floats somewhere near the edge of the galaxy, to hold various prisoners she has taken. The entire world radiates magic.

I. The Spider Ship Of Lolth: This portal is different from any other door found on the Web. It is a pair of bronze doors, each 15 feet tall and 10 feet wide. The face of the doors is smooth and featureless except for a small cube-shaped depression in the center of the left door. <snip of how to open the door>

Beyond the door is a flat desert under a purple sky. The air seems to radiate an evil heat, burning into the yellow sand of the desert. About a mile from the gate stands a huge, strange building. It appears to be made of brass, about 100 feet tall and 200 feet wide. Long slender supports extend from two points on the sides of the building; these arch upwards and then settle some distance away on the sand. The building itself seems to be composed of two spherical sections, each barely resting on the sand. The nearest has a wide staircase leading to a dark doorway,
above which are two horizontal rows of circular windows.

As the characters approach the building, they see that the 20-foot-wide staircase is flanked by 10-foot-wide bannisters, the lower ends of which turn slightly inward...At closer viewing, the building appears to be made of metal plates bolted together. If the PCs stare at the material, they notice a vague suggestion of movement in it. Close examination reveals faces, twisted and tortured, pressed against some invisible barrier, silently mouthing screams and howls. Similar to the pathways of the Web, this metal is formed from the essence of souls sent to the Abyss; their punishment is to be painfully sealed into this mysterious prison. As for the whole building it can be seen that the structure is definitely not fixed to the ground. The arches on the sides are tubular, and end in large flat pads sunk into the sand.

Characters who watch the domed windows over the door can notice shadowy movements therein, though the exact cause of the movement cannot be determined. The strange windows create an uncomfortable feeling of being watched.

This structure is not only Lolth’s castle; it is also her vessel, a ship in the shape of a spider. It travels across land by walking on the eight arched legs on its sides. Inside are living quarters, power plants, temple chambers, and control rooms. The entire ship is powered by large steam engines (found in the lower sections). The vibration from these engines can be felt throughout the ship.

This vehicle has been known to appear on the Prime Mated Plane in places and times when Lolth felt it necessary or useful to appear in person. What legends there are of this thing tell of the great riches and deadly traps that have been discovered inside. All are rumors, of course, as none have ever returned from it alive!

Unless specified otherwise in the text, the interior regions of the spider ship are lit by hidden ceiling fixtures. Those familiar with their operation need no torches or magical light on the vessel.

At the time the characters enter the spider ship, the Demon Queen is preparing for launch across the astral void to her new acquisition-the land of Sterich in the World of Greyhawk. Using her machinery and magics, plus power derived from beings more evil
than herself, Lolth intends to bind this first bit to her plane, opening a full portal into the area for her conquest.

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Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Yeah, that was the first time I saw Cthulhu anywhere, even though I never became a fan. When it started becoming popular many years later I was pleasantly surprised.

Personally, I think all the Far-Realm crap was just WOTC trying to bypass those laws and copy the strange gods/and creatures.

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Originally posted by The Masked Mage

Exactly - it was "oh, you want to spend your money on strange wiggly monsters? fine, here you go, as many strange wiggly monsters as you can handle"

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Originally posted by The Masked Mage

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

But isn't Newhon a copyrighted world from another franchise? I mean, perhaps at some point TSR had the IP, but there were to be certain limits for using it. Until it lost it altogether.

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The original 1st edition Deities and Demi-gods had Nehwon entries in it. There was also an ORIGINAL original 1st edition Deities and Demigods that included the Cthulhu mythos, but for some reason they had to pull Cthulhu out (betting over copyright issues.... though for a lot of us, that was where we first heard of Cthulhu and H.P. Lovecraft, so it probably helped him and gained them more notoriety)

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Yeah, that was the first time I saw Cthulhu anywhere, even though I never became a fan. When it started becoming popular many years later I was pleasantly surprised.

Personally, I think all the Far-Realm crap was just WOTC trying to bypass those laws and copy the strange gods/and creatures.

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Originally posted by sleyvas

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

But isn't Newhon a copyrighted world from another franchise? I mean, perhaps at some point TSR had the IP, but there were to be certain limits for using it. Until it lost it altogether.

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The original 1st edition Deities and Demi-gods had Nehwon entries in it. There was also an ORIGINAL original 1st edition Deities and Demigods that included the Cthulhu mythos, but for some reason they had to pull Cthulhu out (betting over copyright issues.... though for a lot of us, that was where we first heard of Cthulhu and H.P. Lovecraft, so it probably helped him and gained them more notoriety)

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

But isn't Newhon a copyrighted world from another franchise? I mean, perhaps at some point TSR had the IP, but there were to be certain limits for using it. Until it lost it altogether.

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Originally posted by Zeromaru X

But isn't Newhon a copyrighted world from another franchise? I mean, perhaps at some point TSR had the IP, but there were to be certain limits for using it. Until it lost it altogether.

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Originally posted by The Masked Mage

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Nehwon wasn't written up for Spelljammer, either -- but as there is at least one character from Nehwon in the Realms, it shows that Nehwon still existed.

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Who?

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His companion at the time he fought alongside the Knights was the Nehwon ghoul Lacheera (an axe-wielding warrior-woman of a race from another plane), but more recently Tamper has been seen alone, strangling Zhentilar and Zhentarim in Daggerdale to aid Randal Morn.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Nehwon wasn't written up for Spelljammer, either -- but as there is at least one character from Nehwon in the Realms, it shows that Nehwon still existed.

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Originally posted by Dalor Darden



Gruumsh in Black Speach is: Gruum Ash'Su = Gruum One-Eye

So Gruumsh was actually an Orc from Middle-Earth who lost his eye to some damn Cormallen!

Cormallen - Sindarin word meaning 'Ring-bearers'.

Easy enough to get Corellon from Cormallen!

So there you have it...ol' Gary named Gruumsh after an Orc from Middle-Earth and Corellon from Cormallen...at least in my mind.

So now I know where the Orc Homeworld is...

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Originally posted by Gyor

The Sarrukh are not from another world, all the Creator races are native to Toril.

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Originally posted by Markustay

I'm pretty sure the novels also didn't say the sky was blue. That was just an assumption at the time, just as we have no idea what the color of its seas might have been.

We know the saurials came from some other world - a world that was 'unheard of' before they came to the Realms (despite their already being NATIVE members of the race elsewhere on Toril!) In 4e we found out about some other world no-one ever heard of. The way I look at it, why wouldn't they be the same?

We have had novels contradicting the 4e lore (the original 4e lore - it morphed over time) that show BOTH gods and magic ON ABEIR. There are four primordials that we KNOW - from past lore - that were able to grant spells just like a god. Thus, it is entirely possible that their was some sort of religion on Abeir, whether the gods 'worked' or not (because it could have also been a case like Eberron - sure it had religions, but no-one was sure if they were real or not).

The ONLY argument, as far as I am concerned, that holds any water is that Abeir (as a separate world not attached to Toril) did not exist at that time - the time the novels about Saurials were written. But that argument is meta-gaming, and in-setting, there really is zero reason why the Saurial homeworld couldn't be Abeir. In fact, considering the odd bit of magic that the tricertops-dude had to do, (and the fact that Elminster seems to not only not have been there before, but he seemed to be having FUN, like a kid with a new toy!) I would say that the Saurial homeworld is definitely 'out of sync' with the rest of the D&Dverse. Otherwise, why isn't the world ever written-up or mentioned in any SJ product? Two can play at that 'it was not a thing' argument.

No Planescape or Ravenloft product either.. its like the saurial homeworld was somehow... HIDDEN... back then. Almost as if some Overpower (or dino-related ancient primal power... who may also BE that overpower) was trying to hide it or something.

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